1933 réponses à ce sujet

[Panda]

They will probably change her hero name, but maybe use title Iron Man in covers to sell more comics. She was already wondering what her name should be even before it was announced that she is new Iron man. Iron Maiden was one of suggestions n the actual comic as well as Iron woman and Iron girl.

[vertigomez]

All the other issues aside, I think it's certainly easier to do these replacements with heroes that don't actually rely on some super power. Tony Stark built himself an Iron Man suit; he's also made similar suits for others. Bruce Wayne has all of his fancy rich boy toys. But many of the other ones have unique powers that can't be passed down, like the Hulk, or those of the Fantastic Four, so I'm less okay with it in that regard.

Reminds me of when the Young Avengers came out and Billy was calling himself Asgardian and modeling his look after Thor... it worked for a while, but it was very much a no-surprise spoiler when it turned out that the Scarlet Witch was his mother and his powers took after hers. Add that to the fact that he's a gay superhero with that name, and he eventually started calling himself Wiccan.

That whole team was modeled after the Avengers because in-universe they were a bunch of teenage fanboy/girl superheroes, so it was deliberate. Hulkling was a big green guy... but his powers had nothing to do with gamma radiation and he's a shapeshifter so he can look however he wants. Patriot's powers had more or less the same origin as Captain America's, but eventually Miss America replaced him and her powers are nothing like either of theirs.

Not sure what my point is, heh. I like how they did it here because it was very self-aware. You had a group of teens idolizing their heroes and trying to emulate them, and writers who wanted to sell comics associated with a big name. But their staying power came from actually being well-written and easing away from their origins.

[Steelcan]

My biggest problem with "passing on" titles to new characters from old ones, and in the case of Marvel the recent trend has been away from white guys to minorities is twofold. 

 

One it supports the argument that gets tossed around that diversity is a zero sum game, what one man loses another has gained, but there is absolutely no reason for this to be the case.  You see this argument pop up on BSN occasionally about how its not fair that other demographics get catered to because it comes at the expense of others.  In the case of BioWare games it is pretty ridiculous as the number of romances (for example) stays reasonably consistent across the games.  However what I'm seeing in these comics is the vindication of this view.  This can lead to the perception that many of these "old" fans see themselves as not being given any recognition, their investment in these long standing characters is secondary to appeasing the SJW crowd that's probably not going to read the comics anyways.

 

Secondly, its a horrendously unoriginal way to make new characters.  Let's just slap the Iron Man name on a black girl, or make a woman Thor now, is just screaming to be considered lackluster representation at best.

[vertigomez]

However what I'm seeing in these comics is the vindication of this view. This can lead to the perception that many of these "old" fans see themselves as not being given any recognition, their investment in these long standing characters is secondary to appeasing the SJW crowd that's probably not going to read the comics anyways.

I think the problem here is assuming straight white guys are the only "old" fans, the only ones who are invested in long-standing characters, and the perception that 'the sjw crowd' aren't real comic book fans (or video game fans or whatever else) and don't actually consume the media.

It's not true. It's never been true.

[Steelcan]

I think the problem here is assuming straight white guys are the only "old" fans, the only ones who are invested in long-standing characters, and the perception that 'the sjw crowd' aren't real comic book fans (or video game fans or whatever else) and don't actually consume the media.

It's not true. It's never been true.

I'm not talking about what's true, I'm talking about perception, and we all know how much they can differ.

 

However, Marvel themselves are guilty of feeding into this.  Their stated reason for having a female Thor was to attract more female fans to the series "In a statement on its website, Marvel said it hopes the lead female protagonist will “speak directly to an audience that long was not the target for superhero comic books in America: women and girls”.".  That's as clear cut an example as there can be of Marvel blatantly appealing to a new section of fans at the expense of older ones

[SardaukarElite]

I think in some cases the idea of people taking up the identify of an established hero is kind of cool, but it tells a story of the the hero's identity being a significantly different thing to the person embodying it. Which in turn presents the problem, if that isn't the case and there isn't such a story to tell the new character will never step out of the shadow of the previous. 

 

It also smacks of saying atypical characters only being possible if they follow in wake of more conventional ones. 

[vertigomez]

I'm not talking about what's true, I'm talking about perception, and we all know how much they can differ.
 
However, Marvel themselves are guilty of feeding into this.  Their stated reason for having a female Thor was to attract more female fans to the series "In a statement on its website, Marvel said it hopes the lead female protagonist will “speak directly to an audience that long was not the target for superhero comic books in America: women and girls”.".  That's as clear cut an example as there can be of Marvel blatantly appealing to a new section of fans at the expense of older ones

But even saying something like, "...a new section of fans at the expense of older ones" implies that the older (read: genuine) fans were never minorities. Like straight white guys have always been the only comic book consumers. Just because companies didn't target minorities doesn't mean they weren't there the whole time.

That doesn't mean I don't think it's equally sloppy of Marvel to act like they haven't had the power to "speak directly" to female and other minority comic book fans for forever, like we just showed up recently and haven't been around since the beginning. But I think it's silly regardless of whether it's popular perception or the company itself espousing it.

[Panda]

It's not necessarily in expense of older one's though since in most of time older character is still around. It can get bit confusing with two Spider-man's, Captain America's and Hawkeyes etc, but well this seems to be model that has been working for Marvel in terms of creating more diversity to universe and making new characters popular. Sure there is new characters that have gotten popular on their own like Miss America, but slapping title like Iron Man to new character will surely get more headlines and buzz than simply making new character with new superhero identity.

[Dani100]

I was a fan of Thor since I was a youngster and was excited when they announced the female Thor but it's been disappointing they've made no attempt to make it feel like it's a real change. Old Thor has been in the comics more than the female Thor, it's been a ****** joke. I'm sorry I bought the damn comics.

[Biotic Apostate]

That's what I liked about the Young Avengers - they may have based themselves on other superheroes, but they ended up being very different from them. They were properly introduced, had backstories, and the inclusiveness never felt like it was awkwardly retrofitted.

 

As I've said in the 'Today I learned' thread, the gay Green Lantern/gay Iceman/lady Thor/so on approach is just lazy. You want a diverse cast, then put in the work to write one, from beginning to end. By recycling heroes, they're either saying that they want an easy way to appear inclusive, or that minority characters and women cannot succeed on their own merit, and have to be introduced as alternative versions of already beloved characters. And since the old versions are still around (not that it would be a problem to bring them back, if they were dead), this feels like a temporary thing. 

 

On a semi-related note, I followed Young Avengers for a while, but stopped, because the comic book plots are just too ridiculous for me (another civil war?! they just had one!), they rarely updated it, and the art style can go from ok to whatever this monstrosity is (though I might be a little spoiled by a great artist, whose version of Billy and Teddy is the only one I'd accept now)

Spoiler

[Lady Artifice]

I agree that perspective is an important consideration. This isn't even the first female character to take over the Iron Man role, complete with the iconic suit colors. They already did this with Pepper Potts a few years ago (albeit with a feminized design), and that isn't even to get into all the other Ironmanesque supersuit people running around the marvel universe.

 

Which is really kind of my point. This doesn't mean much. They could give this character some spotlight for a while, and then go back to Tony Stark as soon as they have more plot ideas for him, as they are wont to do, which would put this character back in the background. Marvel has been a little addicted to creating female versions of male characters for over 30 years. "Miss Sinister" was, imo, one of the dumbest examples of the habit.

 

I'll try to reserve judgment until I actually look at the comic, but I've never been the biggest fan of creating distaff counterparts for established heroes in the first place, because they usually end up just being the younger, less experienced, b-team versions.

[Panda]

Well personally I love Jane Thor, Kate Bishop as Hawkeye and some other versions. I don't think it's really lazy way for me, I find it more clever though in the end it's up to how strong story and character is. Change like this might be good for older character as well like Old Man Steve and Old Man Logan have been quite entertaining even if Steve turned from old man to Hydra.

 

On a semi-related note, I followed Young Avengers for a while, but stopped, because the comic book plots are just too ridiculous for me (another civil war?! they just had one!), they rarely updated it, and the art style can go from ok to whatever this monstrosity is (though I might be a little spoiled by a great artist, whose version of Billy and Teddy is the only one I'd accept now)

Spoiler

 

Hmm, I think that's from New Avengers. I have been liking story of it, the war against SHIELD and so. Teddy and Billy had quite nice chapter within it as well. Though I have to agree that art is quite hard to get used to ^^;

[nightscrawl]

I would like to know if there is actual research or sales that back up the corporate overlord perception that their audience, which they perceive as majority straight, white, male, and cis, are just not going to purchase comics (or games, or watch films) with these sorts of minority characters in their own new role. It just seems to me like they're not giving their audience the benefit of the doubt, and not giving new characters a chance.

 

And what if these comics happen to be badly written, or the character is a stereotype or filled with tropes and people don't buy it? Will those same corporate overlords look at the real problem of that crappy writing? Or will they just say, "Well, I guess a black female hero won't sell. Bring back Tony!"

 

There has just been a new trailer for the upcoming Wonder Woman movie. A lot of the comments, which I perceived as being by men, were like, "I so want her to kick my ass. ," and so on, so it's not like this female super hero won't sell to straight men. Aside from the occasional troglodyte, we've seen that Cassandra has her straight male fans as well who like the character and the romance. These people ARE out there and I think these companies need to stop appealing to the lowest common denominator.

 

Instead, you get garbage like this which has pissed off many fans, male and female, who think it is a creepy change to the story and a disservice to the character. After criticism, one of the co-screenwriters doubled-down and insulted a fan at a panel. Seriously?

 

 

I also think that minority people deserve their own character as well, with their own unique origin story. Piggybacking on these extant characters for the sake of brownie points, patting themselves on the back, and some extra dollars from some folks doesn't really do anything for real inclusivity. They need to actually be inclusive.

[Biotic Apostate]

Hmm, I think that's from New Avengers. I have been liking story of it, the war against SHIELD and so. Teddy and Billy had quite nice chapter within it as well. Though I have to agree that art is quite hard to get used to ^^;

As much as I'd like to read it, the art style is just too much for me to get through. I mean how do you go from this

Spoiler

 

to this

Spoiler

 

 

I understand there are different illustrators and different styles, but you have to at least make the character kinda look like they're supposed to, like here

Spoiler

Different style, still very recognisable. He's a 17/18 year old boy, who got picked on, because he was a skinny gay nerd, not Beat PunchBeef or Butch DeadLift (thank you, MST3K). It feels like the style of the author is taking priority over being faithful to the character.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Instead, you get garbage like this which has pissed off many fans, male and female, who think it is a creepy change to the story and a disservice to the character. After criticism, one of the co-screenwriters doubled-down and insulted a fan at a panel. Seriously?

Aw man, I was looking forward to seeing The Killing Joke but after reading that article about what they did and how they handled the upset fans, I can't in good consciousness get it since I don't support those decisions.

 

Also why is it that all superheroes have to have premarital sex with one and/or multiple people, or those that don't don't only because it is dangerous for the partner? 

[Panda]

As much as I'd like to read it, the art style is just too much for me to get through. I mean how do you go from this

Spoiler

 

to this

Spoiler

 

 

I understand there are different illustrators and different styles, but you have to at least make the character kinda look like they're supposed to, like here

Spoiler

Different style, still very recognisable. He's a 17/18 year old boy, who got picked on, because he was a skinny gay nerd, not Beat PunchBeef or Butch DeadLift (thank you, MST3K). It feels like the style of the author is taking priority over being faithful to the character.

 

Believe me, you aren't only one who has complained about that. I don't really like it either, but I can ignore it cause I like story and characters that much. And well, it's not worst one I have seen

 

From example She- Hulk vol 3:

 

 

And whatever Rob Liefield is drawing..

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

And 90s comic style in Marvel is just generally bad.

[Biotic Apostate]

I'll try to reserve judgment until I actually look at the comic, but I've never been the biggest fan of creating distaff counterparts for established heroes in the first place, because they usually end up just being the younger, less experienced, b-team versions.

The b-team feeling is evident, when you think about the probability of any of those new characters appearing in the Cinematic Universe. There's a new Spiderman being made, with no trace of Miles Morales. Iron Man movies will probably just stop coming out, when Robert Downey Jr. says he had enough. And I don't see Chris Hemsworth stepping down anytime soon. How is anyone supposed to believe these changes are anything but temporary, when outside of the comics those characters are and will be the same as they were before the change?

[Biotic Apostate]

Believe me, you aren't only one who has complained about that. I don't really like it either, but I can ignore it cause I like story and characters that much. And well, it's not worst one I have seen

 

From example She- Hulk vol 3:

[snip]

And whatever Rob Liefield is drawing..

 

Spoiler

 

And 90s comic style in Marvel is just generally bad.

Sweet Maker! Why? Has nobody in the chain of production looked at it and said 'maybe let's not'?

The only thing I think of, when I hear about Liefield is this

Spoiler

What is anatomy?

[DomeWing333]

One it supports the argument that gets tossed around that diversity is a zero sum game, what one man loses another has gained, but there is absolutely no reason for this to be the case.

Well, sometimes that is the case though. Take the white male-dominated fields of real life and think about what it would take for them to be diversified. It doesn't mean simply adding some odd number of jobs for various minorities on top of the existing jobs for white males. The old guard needs to retire and be replaced by a younger, less experienced, more diverse group.

So the experience that Riri Williams is having in the comic books serves as a parallel to the experience that people like her are going through in the real world. That of coming into a role that historically hasn't been yours and claiming it as your own.

[Panda]

The b-team feeling is evident, when you think about the probability of any of those new characters appearing in the Cinematic Universe. There's a new Spiderman being made, with no trace of Miles Morales. Iron Man movies will probably just stop coming out, when Robert Downey Jr. says he had enough. And I don't see Chris Hemsworth stepping down anytime soon. How is anyone supposed to believe these changes are anything but temporary, when outside of the comics those characters are and will be the same as they were before the change?

 

Captain Marvel in the movie is going to be third Captain Marvel. I think it's third, Hulkling's dad being first one and Monica second. Unless there is someone I'm not aware. And personally I think Marvel could have done as well movie about Miles Morales as they did one of Peter Parker. I was quite bummed with their decision to go with teenager Parker again, cause it's seen so many times already, rather I'd have had either adult Peter or Miles than see same thing repeated third time.

[Biotic Apostate]

Captain Marvel in the movie is going to be third Captain Marvel. I think it's third, Hulkling's dad being first one and Monica second. Unless there is someone I'm not aware. And personally I think Marvel could have done as well movie about Miles Morales as they did one of Peter Parker. I was quite bummed with their decision to go with teenager Parker again, cause it's seen so many times already, rather I'd have had either adult Peter or Miles than see same thing repeated third time.

Although it's good that both DC and Marvel will have a movie with a female lead, I don't think any version of Captain Marvel was as popular and recognised as Robert Downey Jr.'s Tony Stark, or Chris Hemsworth's Thor. I think female Thor is only slightly more probable to have a movie than frog Thor.

And I agree, Peter Parker's teenage years have been done so many times, there's not much they can add to it.

[Panda]

I don't think you can say that before movie is out though. Cause Iron Man movie was what made Robert Downey's Tony Stark popular.. well probably any Iron man. Maybe Captain Marvel's Actor and the movie will do same to her character.

[Biotic Apostate]

That's not what I meant, I'm not saying that movie has no chance of becoming the version of Captain Marvel people know the best or that it cannot be as popular as the other franchises. I'm saying that they can do a female protagonist, because there's no other Captain Marvel most people immediately think about, when they hear the title. Introducing female versions of Iron Man or Thor is very different, because both the male characters and the actors are very much the faces of those franchises. Introducing another male actor to play Tony Stark would be difficult enough, let alone a black female version. So I don't see Iron Man 4/5/... with a female protagonist happening anytime soon.

[Panda]

Movies seem to follow most iconic and popular characters sure. I doubt we would get anything too current compared to comics so it's likely that Jane Thor and Riri Iron Man won't happen at least anytime soon. Then there is question that how many movies of same character there really needs to be. Personally I'd rather see movies of many characters instead of many movies of same character, but I guess Marvel wants to follow what is now popular MCU-wise. However eventually if Marvel keeps doing movies and those movies are received well I don't see any reason why they couldn't repeat on what happened in comics and have Miles Morales as Spider-man and Sam Wilson- or Bucky, as Captain America.

[Lady Artifice]

 

From example She- Hulk vol 3:

 

 

So ugly.

 

Does it seem like her eyes look in different directions?