155 réponses à ce sujet

[Paz Cadash]

OK, thanks all, I'll try to move ahead, see if I can get into it.

 

Am I now required to read Twitter in order to appreciate a game properly? How about just not designing it like that in the first place?

 

 

Leave the Hinterlands. If you are not interested in doing the "MMO collect-a-thin grandest" parts, just don't do them, they are not necessary. There's still the same amount of story-driven, cinematic main quest content as Origins, so just go do that.

 

The problem is I'm a completionist when it comes to story/lore-related quests and such, so how am I supposed to know if an area is a complete waste of time and there isn't some unique character, cool boss creature, a werewolf lair or other side-story dungeon in one of the far corners? Or if collecting enough shards doesn't lead to some special storyline? Or if a mysterious letter I pick up isn't the beginning of something bigger, and not just a stupid "quest" that ends 30 seconds later when you find a dead body and that was that?

 

 

And if you're playing a story-driven RPG, whyever the hell would you continue a story you hate since the first few bits?!

 

I'm really, really tired of you trolls claiming to be playing an MMO. Please actually play one before claiming so? Your lack of experience with the MMO genre is severely showing whenever you pull out your claims, so keep 'em where the sun doesn't shine.

 

I liked the story at first, but then the game made a sharp left and it simply vanished, and I wasn't sure what game I had actually purchased. Also I played World of Warcraft during the beta, and the reason I mentioned it is because this really reminded me of the final days before the servers shut down, and you could run around for 10 minutes without coming across another player.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I suppose it's a fault in the game's design that you know the best way to play it next time round, not during your first experience.
But realising that in your first run can be difficult.

If people would roleplay their character rather than trying to play a game, they wouldn't have this problem.

[sjsharp2011]

Regularly go back to base and chat with people, there's a lot of lore to hear, and regularly do the major missions.  Don't get bogged down in the open zones as you'll lose your mind.

 

I would do 50 minutes questing, back to base to chat for a bit, 50 minutes questing, then back to base for a major quest/companion quest.  I missed 4 zones completely, saving them for next time, so I didn't burn out on the fetch quests.

 

At least complete Haven and get to Skyhold.  That's when the game opens up, and if you're a DA fan then by that point you should be hooked.  It's a great game but unfortunately if you approach it the wrong way it can be hard to see.

yeah I agree the key thing with DAI is it can be monotonous if you stay in one area like the Hinterlands  too long.

 

The best way to play the opening levels is work through the basics and just focus on building up your team. Once you have done this you should be ready to head for Skyhold and the main part of the game. For example once you get into the Hinterlands you need to earn 4 power points in order to unlock Val Royeaux. Only stay long enough in the Hinterlands to earn those 4 points and once you've done enough quests to earn them then move on. The game will tell you when you've got enough power points to progress as it shows on the status bars and on the pause screen exactly what you have.

 

Once you unlock Val Royeaux and all that just focus on recruiting your squadmates like Sera, Vivienne, Iron Bull etc. It's best  to play it in a way that you focus on one task at a time and completing that task befoer moving onto whatever the next one you decide is. It's best to work slowly and gradually through each area rather than attempting to do it all at once because that's where probably DAI can let itself down a bit. In the smaller zones like the Fallow mire this isn't really a problem but in the larger zones like the Hinterlands and the Emerald Graves it certainly can be.

[ArcadiaGrey]

If people would roleplay their character rather than trying to play a game, they wouldn't have this problem.

 

But sadly most people don't roleplay, and miss out on some wonderful moments because of it.

[vbibbi]

I suppose it's a fault in the game's design that you know the best way to play it next time round, not during your first experience.

But realising that in your first run can be difficult.

Exactly. It's difficult now for anyone posting on these boards to view the game without hindsight. Sure, now we all know that we shouldn't linger in the Hinterlands and complete everything, since we can come back at any point, but we have to remember that something that looks obvious now wasn't obvious when first playing the game. And to me, a good game should be designed so that the first playthrough is as fulfilling as subsequent playthroughs, mechanics-wise. Characters and story can improve on subsequent playthroughs, since we get to chose between mages and templars, or we now know Solas and Blackwall's secrets and it's fun to see the hints through the games.

 

But we shouldn't have to rely on hindsight or seeking external information to understand how to pace the game. Some players enjoy wandering around the Hinterlands and that's fine, but I think the "leave the Hinterlands" meme is fair evidence that many didn't.

[sjsharp2011]

No. Let us play how we like.

I happen to like the Hinterlands.

So do I but I can see how some might be overawed by it's size though as it is a rather large zone. I do remember that once you get your 4 powere points that Solas does asy "perhaps we should go to Val Royeaux now" or words to that effect t otell the player that it's OK to move on if they want so it dosen't get too monotonous but ast the end of the day it is in the players hands. Usually I do move on at that point but others obviously don't clearly

[Realmzmaster]

I thought it was obvious in my first playthrough that the protagonist could leave the Hinterlands and go to VR and come back to the Hinterlands later. Your party members and even Mother Giselle suggest that. The game simply allows the player to make a choice. All the nudges and hints are there. The developer simply allowed the player to make the choice without explicitly having a character say :Go to VR now and come back to the Hinterlands".

 

I decided on my first plkaythrough to have the party take out the mages and templars to ensure the safety of the masses. I choose to help the refuges because that was the protagonist I was roleplaying. I choose to map out the entire area. That is why I like the design. It gives you the hints to move on, but allows the protagonist not to for roleplaying purposes.

[AlanC9]

The problem is I'm a completionist when it comes to story/lore-related quests and such, so how am I supposed to know if an area is a complete waste of time and there isn't some unique character, cool boss creature, a werewolf lair or other side-story dungeon in one of the far corners? Or if collecting enough shards doesn't lead to some special storyline? Or if a mysterious letter I pick up isn't the beginning of something bigger, and not just a stupid "quest" that ends 30 seconds later when you find a dead body and that was that?

Completionism really is not the way to approach DAI. A pure RP approach works much better. Don't do any quest unless your character has an actual reason to do that quest. (Though gaining Power and Influence can be reason enough, if your PC really needs them.)

Note that the Black Emporium includes a way to modify your PC's face if you want to tweak something.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The problem is I'm a completionist when it comes to story/lore-related quests and such, so how am I supposed to know if an area is a complete waste of time and there isn't some unique character, cool boss creature, a werewolf lair or other side-story dungeon in one of the far corners? Or if collecting enough shards doesn't lead to some special storyline? Or if a mysterious letter I pick up isn't the beginning of something bigger, and not just a stupid "quest" that ends 30 seconds later when you find a dead body and that was that?

If you enjoy being a completionist, then by all means be a completionist.

But why do you still play like a completionist when you're not enjoying it?

[ArcadiaGrey]

Completionism really is not the way to approach DAI. A pure RP approach works much better. Don't do any quest unless your character has an actual reason to do that quest. (Though gaining Power and Influence can be reason enough, if your PC really needs them.)

Note that the Black Emporium includes a way to modify your PC's face if you want to tweak something.

 

You can be a completionist, and I aim to be with DA:I, but across all 4 of my worlds.  Only one IQ will get every shard, one will side with the Templars, each zone will be completed in it's entirety by one IQ etc etc.

 

Being a completionist in one playthrough?  I'd top myself tbh.

[sjsharp2011]

I thought it was obvious in my first playthrough that the protagonist could leave the Hinterlands and go to VR and come back to the Hinterlands later. Your party members and even Mother Giselle suggest that. The game simply allows the player to make a choice. All the nudges and hints are there. The developer simply allowed the player to make the choice without explicitly having a character say :Go to VR now and come back to the Hinterlands".

 

I decided on my first plkaythrough to have the party take out the mages and templars to ensure the safety of the masses. I choose to help the refuges because that was the protagonist I was roleplaying. I choose to map out the entire area. That is why I like the design. It givesd you the hints to move on, but allows the protagonist not to for roleplaying purposes.

Yeah exactly although I think on my first playthrough I went to VR after collecting my 4 points and most of my quizzies have. Although I think one did stay longer to do other things but that was because I was RP'ing a slightly differnt style of IQ in that run. Usually I try to unlock things though as soon as I'm able

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Am I now required to read Twitter in order to appreciate a game properly? How about just not designing it like that in the first place?

 

The problem is I'm a completionist when it comes to story/lore-related quests and such, so how am I supposed to know if an area is a complete waste of time and there isn't some unique character, cool boss creature, a werewolf lair or other side-story dungeon in one of the far corners? Or if collecting enough shards doesn't lead to some special storyline? Or if a mysterious letter I pick up isn't the beginning of something bigger, and not just a stupid "quest" that ends 30 seconds later when you find a dead body and that was that?

For what it's worth, I agree with all of that as I'm a completionist myself, but even if you're not, these things still apply. You can't know these things on a first playthrough, so completionist or not, you're stuck doing everything on the chance that it will be interesting. And since I don't know what you'll find personally enjoyable, I can't really give you any advice on what to ignore. You might want to slug it out on your first run, or spread different areas our over a few runs, or just skip stuff when you get bored.

 

And I agree that if they have to tell us things like that on twitter, something went wrong.

 

Completionism really is not the way to approach DAI. A pure RP approach works much better. Don't do any quest unless your character has an actual reason to do that quest. (Though gaining Power and Influence can be reason enough, if your PC really needs them.)

 

If you enjoy being a completionist, then by all means be a completionist.

But why do you still play like a completionist when you're not enjoying it?

Why are there so many people who don't understand what completionism really is? It's a compulsion to do everything. If you don't, it gnaws at you. It's uncomfortable. It's not really a preferred playstyle for some of us as much as it's a necessary one. So if the content happens to be boring, we're caught between a rock and a hard place

[roselavellan]

I suppose it's a fault in the game's design that you know the best way to play it next time round, not during your first experience.
But realising that in your first run can be difficult.

Yes. They could have perhaps put a slightly greater sense of urgency into going to Val Royeaux, maybe through a cut scene or something. But still leaving the choice to the player of course.

[AlanC9]

Why are there so many people who don't understand what completionism really is? It's a compulsion to do everything. If you don't, it gnaws at you. It's uncomfortable. It's not really a preferred playstyle for some of us as much as it's a necessary one. So if the content happens to be boring, we're caught between a rock and a hard place

Yeah, I do wrestle with that concept.

Weird hypothetical: what about a game with no journal and no designated "quests" -- something as old-school as, say, Starflight? Take your own notes, make your own decisions about what to do next and why. Better? Or is part of the attraction of the genre checking stuff off of the list?

[vbibbi]

Yeah, I do wrestle with that concept.

Weird hypothetical: what about a game with no journal and no designated "quests" -- something as old-school as, say, Starflight? Take your own notes, make your own decisions about what to do next and why. Better? Or is part of the attraction of the genre checking stuff off of the list?

Yes, I think that's a good example, at least for me. If there is no actual journal system, I don't feel as much of a need to do everything.

 

The way I think about it, the game is telling me that something in the journal is noteworthy and worth doing. This requires a certain faith in the game/developers that they are telling me there's a story they thought was important enough to spend time on including in the game. Bioware has done this consistently. Other companies to varying degrees, so I'm not going to always try to complete the journal if the company hasn't proven it's worth it.

 

But for Bioware games, the entries in the journal are an indication that a) There's something worth doing that's off the main path, b.) that I have a chance to roleplay the character (trying to ask for more money as a reward, doing a small sidequest and refusing a reward, using different skills/characters to accomplish the goal, etc.) c) that this is something that helps provide another perspective on the world in a small, specific way.

 

Of course, it's unrealistic to expect every single journal entry will live up to this. And maybe part of the issue was that DAI's journal only divided things into main path, companions, and then regions. (And collections, but at least those are obviously not true side quests.) So it was difficult to tell what level of importance a quest would have if we just went by the journal. In DA2 it separated all of the basic fetch quests into "side quests" from the meatier "secondary quests" for those with multiple stages or more depth. So if I really wanted to skip all the filler content, I could ignore that section of the journal.

 

But going from Bioware's side quests in previous games, it's not easy to discern what will end up being a basic fetch quest and what won't if it's not shown in the journal. I could have seen some of the more basic quests in DAI being fleshed out: the elven widow sends us for her husband's ring, only for her to reveal she and her husband actually are mages and she needed his ring to retrieve a message he left for her on templar troop movements. Further details and twists that I've come to expect from Bioware, so when all of the minor quests are played completely straight with no depth past the surface, no real choices and consequences, it was a surprise.

 

So, a long winded way of saying that when first playing the game, I wanted to complete as many quests as I could, in the hopes that even a basic side quest would turn out to have more to it. It's only in hindsight knowing which of the side quests provide this and which are barebones.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes, I think that's a good example, at least for me. If there is no actual journal system, I don't feel as much of a need to do everything.

The way I think about it, the game is telling me that something in the journal is noteworthy and worth doing. This requires a certain faith in the game/developers that they are telling me there's a story they thought was important enough to spend time on including in the game. Bioware has done this consistently. Other companies to varying degrees, so I'm not going to always try to complete the journal if the company hasn't proven it's worth it.

But for Bioware games, the entries in the journal are an indication that a) There's something worth doing that's off the main path, b.) that I have a chance to roleplay the character (trying to ask for more money as a reward, doing a small sidequest and refusing a reward, using different skills/characters to accomplish the goal, etc.) c) that this is something that helps provide another perspective on the world in a small, specific way.

BioWare's tendency to use the journal in this way is why I try not to read the journal at all (this approach completely broke DA2).

I don't want the devs to give me that much metagame information. For the same reason, I'll skip cutscenes that show events my character doesn't actually witness. I didn't want to know, for example, that Loghain hired Zevran. My character doesn't know, so I don't need to know.

[Realmzmaster]

As stated before it comes down to being a completionist and roleplaying the protagonist. If you are roleplaying the protagonist then certain quests will or will not appeal to you. For example if I am roleplaying a character who is all about helping refugees then hunting ram meat becomes important.

 

If I am roleplaying a character who wants to close the Breach in the quickest way possible then the ram meat quest is inconsequential. A completionist needs to finish every quest in the game. DAI is a game where that cannot happen because it forces you to make a choice between mages and templars. So there is no way to complete all the quests in one playthrough.

 

The same happen in Dragon age Origins certain quests were mutually exclusive. You could only be a completionist across playthroughs not in one playthrough. Maybe it just me but I have played enough semi-open and open world games to know when I can come back to a place and when I will not be able. The game will provide the hints and clues if you notice them. Some outright tell you there is no coming back.

 

DAI provided the hints and clues to go to VR. The player can choose to go or not.

[Nefla]

The problem is I'm a completionist when it comes to story/lore-related quests and such, so how am I supposed to know if an area is a complete waste of time and there isn't some unique character, cool boss creature, a werewolf lair or other side-story dungeon in one of the far corners? Or if collecting enough shards doesn't lead to some special storyline? Or if a mysterious letter I pick up isn't the beginning of something bigger, and not just a stupid "quest" that ends 30 seconds later when you find a dead body and that was that?

I'll save you the trouble: none of the non-companion side quests(started by talking to your companion in Haven/Skyhold) lead to anything story-heavy. There are no deep and interesting NPCs to be found out in the world. In each zone there is one longer quest that may or may not be somewhat interesting and scout Harding will tell you about it when you get to that area for the first time. The vast majority is "go here, kill this" or "go here, get this" and if you're lucky there will be a codex entry you can read. You never get the chance to speak to any of your enemies before having to kill them (let alone convince them to stand down like in previous games), there are no cinematics, almost no choices involved, etc...There are several dragons you can fight if that interests you. That being said, even if you want to avoid doing these things, you can't avoid all of them. The game forces you to grind power (I counted 145 to be able to unlock just the main quests and areas that contain them including 8 to unlock the Storm Coast if you want the Iron Bull as a companion) some side quests give you influence instead of power too.

 

Long story short, there are a few good parts in the main story (though it's short and IMO not great as a whole) but most of your time is going to be spent grinding power to try and progress and if you don't like finding rings and goats in the Hinterlands you're not going to like doing it in Emprise du Lion or the Exhalted Plains or whatever either. I feel like the kind of person who will like the side quests in DA:I

 

1) Loves the combat in DA:I and looks for any excuse to have more of it

2) Finds the background visuals very important and is satisfied just looking at the pretty maps

3) Wants to make up their own story out of nothing rather than have the game tell a story or give you dialogue/roleplaying options

[Lazarillo]

Should they have made it more explicit?  Should they have had Jossie or Leli strong-arm the HoA to Val Royeaux as soon as the player had enough Power?  Probably.

For what it's worth, in one of the game's later patches, they started doing this a little bit. After you raise the requisite amount of power, Cass/Solas/Varric will occasionally spit out a "banter" about how you should move on to Val Royeaux now.

[vbibbi]

BioWare's tendency to use the journal in this way is why I try not to read the journal at all (this approach completely broke DA2).

I don't want the devs to give me that much metagame information. For the same reason, I'll skip cutscenes that show events my character doesn't actually witness. I didn't want to know, for example, that Loghain hired Zevran. My character doesn't know, so I don't need to know.

Yes, if I played without looking at the journal at all, that would probably help. So do you take notes each playthrough and follow them as a guide? I know that if I didn't refer back to the journal or notes I would just be wandering from map point to map point hoping to find the next stage to a quest.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I'll save you the trouble: none of the non-companion side quests(started by talking to your companion in Haven/Skyhold) lead to anything story-heavy. There are no deep and interesting NPCs to be found out in the world. In each zone there is one longer quest that may or may not be somewhat interesting and scout Harding will tell you about it when you get to that area for the first time. The vast majority is "go here, kill this" or "go here, get this" and if you're lucky there will be a codex entry you can read. You never get the chance to speak to any of your enemies before having to kill them (let alone convince them to stand down like in previous games), there are no cinematics, almost no choices involved, etc...There are several dragons you can fight if that interests you. That being said, even if you want to avoid doing these things, you can't avoid all of them. The game forces you to grind power (I counted 145 to be able to unlock just the main quests and areas that contain them including 8 to unlock the Storm Coast if you want the Iron Bull as a companion) some side quests give you influence instead of power too.

Long story short, there are a few good parts in the main story (though it's short and IMO not great as a whole) but most of your time is going to be spent grinding power to try and progress and if you don't like finding rings and goats in the Hinterlands you're not going to like doing it in Emprise du Lion or the Exhalted Plains or whatever either. I feel like the kind of person who will like the side quests in DA:I

1) Loves the combat in DA:I and looks for any excuse to have more of it
2) Finds the background visuals very important and is satisfied just looking at the pretty maps
3) Wants to make up their own story out of nothing rather than have the game tell a story or give you dialogue/roleplaying options

But, most of the content is still available, even if you're not doing quests. We can still wander about and discover things even without the quests.

And that is the thing that sets DAI apart from every BioWare game except BG1 (and arguably NWN, though also arguably not).

[thats1evildude]

Whereas I love reading the journal. Love it, I say.

[Nefla]

But, most of the content is still available, even if you're not doing quests. We can still wander about and discover things even without the quests.

And that is the thing that sets DAI apart from every BioWare game except BG1 (and arguably NWN, though also arguably not).

What things? Dragons? Rifts? Scenery to look at?

 

If there was ever something to convince me never to play BioWare's pre-KotOR games, it'd be a similarity to DA:I's "open world."

[Thandal N'Lyman]

The BioWare twitterverse is full of tweets from the devs saying, basically, "People!  Get out of the Hinterlands!"

 

Should they have made it more explicit?  Should they have had Jossie or Leli strong-arm the HoA to Val Royeaux as soon as the player had enough Power?  Probably.

 

No. Let us play how we like.

I happen to like the Hinterlands.

 

 

I was just using a shorthand way to say, "Maybe they should have provided the player with a better conception of scale of Thedas earlier in the game. 

 

Instead of being 'dragged' to Val Royeaux, maybe just marking up the damn War Table in Haven earlier so the player knows about all these other places, then increase the amount of "Power" needed to go to some of them so that the story proceeds more along the lines expected. 

 

Just because I've never personally travelled to Beijing, BioWare, doesn't mean I don't know that China exists and where it is in relation to me.  I simply haven't had a motivation (or the resources) to go.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Yes, if I played without looking at the journal at all, that would probably help. So do you take notes each playthrough and follow them as a guide? I know that if I didn't refer back to the journal or notes I would just be wandering from map point to map point hoping to find the next stage to a quest.

I typically know which quest I'm engaged in at any given moment, and I don't go out of my way to collect extra quests when I haven't finished the first one.

 

Something I used to do in games like these was put a brief description of what I was doing in the name of my save file so it would remind me what I was doing when I loaded that save, but now games rarely let me name savefiles.

 

I don't, for the most part, keep my own journal.  I just try to remember.  I did keep a journal in DAO of chests I couldn't open so I could come back and open them later.