155 réponses à ce sujet

[Sylvius the Mad]

What things? Dragons? Rifts? Scenery to look at?

 

If there was ever something to convince me never to play BioWare's pre-KotOR games, it'd be a similarity to DA:I's "open world."

All of the content we regularly see in these games.  Caves, ruins, NPCs, scenery, enemies to fight, loot, puzzles, and ideally some quest givers out there somewhere.

 

Imagine if, in the DAO deep roads, the tunnels were much longer, and had more branches.  And no one ever told you to explore those branches, but if you did, there was content down there.  That's pretty much how DAI's open zones work.  You don't need to explore them, and no one tells you to explore them, but you still can.

 

Where KotOR (and BG2, DAO, and ME3) fail is that you can't go places that no one told you to visit.  There's nowhere to go except where you're told.  I hate that.  That makes the setting less credible.

[Nefla]

All of the content we regularly see in these games.  Caves, ruins, NPCs, scenery, enemies to fight, loot, puzzles, and ideally some quest givers out there somewhere.

 

Imagine if, in the DAO deep roads, the tunnels were much longer, and had more branches.  And no one ever told you to explore those branches, but if you did, there was content down there.  That's pretty much how DAI's open zones work.  You don't need to explore them, and no one tells you to explore them, but you still can.

 

Where KotOR (and BG2, DAO, and ME3) fail is that you can't go places that no one told you to visit.  There's nowhere to go except where you're told.  I hate that.  That makes the setting less credible.

We like opposite things. I like quests with story, I like interesting NPCs with a lot of dialogue, I don't like aimless wandering with nothing to find but scenery, enemies, and non-unique items and I really don't like the combat in DA:I. My first playthrough of DA:I I did explore the zones hoping to find something I considered fun. I didn't find that.

[Abyss108]

I'm also a completionist, I do everything on my first play through of a game with no guide, but I do that because I find it fun.  I don't think its the games fault if it gives me an option but I just refuse to take it.

[Abyss108]

Oh, also you certainly do not ever need to grind power. The game will give you more than enough just from closing breaches and doing companion + major area quests.

[DreamSever]

I'm also a cometionist, I do everything on my first play through of a game with no guide, but I do that because I find it fun.  I don't think its the games fault if it gives me an option but I just refuse to take it.

Yeah without the guide the astarium puzzles must be a pain, you need the guide for any big rpg. After 8 goes in the hinterlands fully i have the whole place mapped in the brain, its a decent game but you were spoiled with the witcher imo

[Abyss108]

Yeah without the guide the astarium puzzles must be a pain, you need the guide for any big rpg. After 8 goes in the hinterlands fully i have the whole place mapped in the brain, its a decent game but you were spoiled with the witcher imo

 

No, the Astarium puzzles were fun.   I could never use a guide for any kind of RPG, there's no point playing if I've already read what happens.

[DreamSever]

No, the Astarium puzzles were fun.   I could never use a guide for any kind of RPG, there's no point playing if I've already read what happens.

Some were not bellitanus in the storm coast took me awhile

[Thandal N'Lyman]

Astariums were a blast!  And I agree that (regularly using) a guide would simply ruin any RPG that I'd want to play. 

 

I have no problem popping onto the internet to find the key to some puzzle that's defeated me for the past half-hour, (or more) or the location of the last stupid Dwarven Note in the Hissing Wastes... But reading-up on how to sweet talk a Companion, or trigger a side quest with just the right question of an NPC, or which spell combination does what?  Naaaaw.  I prefer to be surprised, disappointed, excited, whatever, because I don't  know what's going to happen, not because I do.  As Dagna would say, "No fun." 

[AlanC9]

Where KotOR (and BG2, DAO, and ME3) fail is that you can't go places that no one told you to visit.  There's nowhere to go except where you're told.  I hate that.  That makes the setting less credible.

I can live with this if the setting and plot make it so just travelling around doesn't seem very credible, RP-wise. In BG2 the party is getting to a level where it isn't too likely that they're just going to stumble onto something worthy of their attention. (Lampshaded in ToB, come to think of it.) And in KotOR the war is ongoing, and you know which planets have a piece of the Star Forge map.

ME1 has a different problem, since the UNC misions are there but the plot critical leads get dumped in Shepard's lap right away. And not very credibly-- after all these years, I still have no idea who reported geth on Noveria.

[AlanC9]

Astrariums, FWIW, are pretty easy to solve if you count the number of lines from each star. That should tell you where the possible start and end points are.

[Sylvius the Mad]

I can live with this if the setting and plot make it so just travelling around doesn't seem very credible, RP-wise. In BG2 the party is getting to a level where it isn't too likely that they're just going to stumble onto something worthy of their attention.

I'm not saying that there should be whole extra zones filled with level-appropriate content. I'm saying that the zones shouldn't be gated behind a quest-giver. De'Arnise Hold should always be there, regardless of whether we've been told about it.

But I take your point that there is a whole world there which we're mostly ignoring because it's beneath us. I hadn't really considered that. And given that, places like De'Arnise Hold will be (from the PC's point of view) part of that world we're ignoring, unless we have reason not to ignore it.

That's the best defense of BG2's design I've seen. Well done.

I still prefer discovering content on my own rather than being directed to it (which is why I don't complain about the quests in DAI or Skyrim - I'm not doing the quests, I'm just exploring), I now recognize that BG2's design does make some sense.

(Lampshaded in ToB, come to think of it.)

I never did play that. I never really got into BG2 (I never finished chapter 2).

And in KotOR the war is ongoing, and you know which planets have a piece of the Star Forge map.

But on those planets, there should be some areas which have nothing to do with the Star Forge or your quest for it. Tatooine consists of 4 zones: the city, the desert outside the city, the sandpeople settlement, and the bantha herds. You have to visit all of them to find the star forge map. I'd like to see two other zones that were entirely optional.

Korriban actually did have some optional content. And such content would be hard to justify on Manaan, but you take my point. I want the game world to exist independently of my quest.

ME1 has a different problem, since the UNC misions are there but the plot critical leads get dumped in Shepard's lap right away. And not very credibly-- after all these years, I still have no idea who reported geth on Noveria.

I struggle to find any redeeming features in the whole ME series.

[Melbella]

Astrariums, FWIW, are pretty easy to solve if you count the number of lines from each star. That should tell you where the possible start and end points are.

As a rabid fan of dot-to-dots, the astrariums were right up my alley. And even after doing all of them multiple times, I still come across one or two per game that take me a couple of tries to get right.

[thats1evildude]

I like the astrariums too! They were the fun sort of puzzles: they gave you a bit of lore and rewarded you with some sweet gear. The only Astrarium cave that was pretty useless was in the Western Approach.

[Nefla]

Oh, also you certainly do not ever need to grind power. The game will give you more than enough just from closing breaches and doing companion + major area quests.

You're assuming people don't find closing rifts or doing "area quests" a grind. Plus the companion quests take as much or more power to unlock the areas they're in as they give for completing them. :/

[DragonKingReborn]

You're assuming people don't find closing rifts or doing "area quests" a grind. Plus the companion quests take as much or more power to unlock the areas they're in as they give for completing them. :/

Never mind. I fail at reading. Nothing to see here.

Modifié par DragonKingReborn, 13 mars 2016 - 04:59 .

[AlanC9]

You're assuming people don't find closing rifts or doing "area quests" a grind. Plus the companion quests take as much or more power to unlock the areas they're in as they give for completing them. :/

Well, of the major companion quests, Sera's doesn't need you to unlock anything, Iron Bull's happens in an area you have to unlock to recruit him in the first place, Varric's, Cole's, Blackwall's and Dorian's happen in mandatory areas, Cassandra's happens in an independent area that doesn't require Power to unlock. But yeah, Solas and Vivienne will want to go to areas that you won't necessarily have unlocked.

As for what counts as a "grind" ...... it's such a nebulous concept that I don't see how we can do anything much with it. Were the top two levels of DA:O's Brecilian Forest Ruin a "grind"?

[Nefla]

Well, of the major companion quests, Sera's doesn't need you to unlock anything, Iron Bull's happens in an area you have to unlock to recruit him in the first place, Varric's, Cole's, Blackwall's and Dorian's happen in mandatory areas, Cassandra's happens in an independent area that doesn't require Power to unlock. But yeah, Solas and Vivienne will want to go to areas that you won't necessarily have unlocked.

As for what counts as a "grind" ...... it's such a nebulous concept that I don't see how we can do anything much with it. Were the top two levels of DA:O's Brecilian Forest Ruin a "grind"?

I'd say if the OP thinks of the Hinterlands as a grind, she will almost certainly think of the other zones the same way.

 

For me anything not directly leading to interesting story/characters/roleplaying opportunities is a grind, especially if I'm forced to do it. Going through the top levels of the Brecilian Forest ruin lead directly to the kind of story elements I like. Closing 10 rifts, pitching 6 tents, finding 3 lost rings, finding 3 bear pelts, herding 1 goat, killing 4 groups of red templars, and collecting 3 batches of elfroot in order to access the next main story quest is definitely a grind for me and one the game didn't need to force me to do. If there hadn't been a power requirements system then people who like the random tasks would still have them and people like me who HATE them could just focus on the main plot. Though I would still be disappointed in the overall quality of these quests, at least I wouldn't have to do any of them. 

[Lucius Esox]

I am sad,, and now I know it.

 

Have just started playing this game after Witcher 3 and have spent way too much time in all the major mmo's in the past so maybe this gives you a clue as to what I am going to say next.

 

I am enjoying the Hinterlands, yes I said it, I am enjoying them and peoples comments about how the game is only going to get better is very good news. 

 

For me atmosphere makes a game and I am trying to make sense of all I am learning about the world before I move on too quickly although above comment about being overpowered for other areas needs consideration also.

 

It does feel a bit like an mmo to me as well but hey I like that and all I can say my gaming experience in DAI is shaping up to be a good one. 

[Aulis Vaara]

Oh, also you certainly do not ever need to grind power. The game will give you more than enough just from closing breaches and doing companion + major area quests.

But you DO need to close those Rifts to get that Power... Just doing the main story is not an option.

[sjsharp2011]

I typically know which quest I'm engaged in at any given moment, and I don't go out of my way to collect extra quests when I haven't finished the first one.

 

Something I used to do in games like these was put a brief description of what I was doing in the name of my save file so it would remind me what I was doing when I loaded that save, but now games rarely let me name savefiles.

 

I don't, for the most part, keep my own journal.  I just try to remember.  I did keep a journal in DAO of chests I couldn't open so I could come back and open them later.

Same here I tend to do this  =as well. I try to remember where I'm at by not leaving the game for too long otherwise it can get confusing if you forget where you aer in the story especially playing RPG's like this.. I tend to stay with a game till I get from beginning to end but if I do take a break mid game I try to not make the break longer than a couple of days or so so that way the story I'm working through remains relatively fresh in my mind.

[sjsharp2011]

But you DO need to close those Rifts to get that Power... Just doing the main story is not an option.

 not neccessarily if you have that power/influence merchant and unlock him you can byu it assuming you have enough money. Although I do tend to make sure all the rifts are closed before finishing the story anyway I do leave some other tasks undone. In fact on my current run with Topal I'm getting toward the  end so am likely to be taking this task on soon. 

[Realmzmaster]

Well, of the major companion quests, Sera's doesn't need you to unlock anything, Iron Bull's happens in an area you have to unlock to recruit him in the first place, Varric's, Cole's, Blackwall's and Dorian's happen in mandatory areas, Cassandra's happens in an independent area that doesn't require Power to unlock. But yeah, Solas and Vivienne will want to go to areas that you won't necessarily have unlocked.

As for what counts as a "grind" ...... it's such a nebulous concept that I don't see how we can do anything much with it. Were the top two levels of DA:O's Brecilian Forest Ruin a "grind"?

 

Actually Sola's and Vivienne's personal quests are in the same zone. So it only has to unlocked once. The problem with the word grind is that what is grind to one gamer is not a grind to another gamer. Like many of the points talked about it is subjective. Some gamers are willing to go through the "grind" to get to the good parts they like.  Others see the "grind" as part of the quest and the overall experience.

[AlanC9]

Though IIRC Vivienne's target requires an additional Power payment to clear a tunnel

[AlanC9]

I'd say if the OP thinks of the Hinterlands as a grind, she will almost certainly think of the other zones the same way.

But thinking of "the Hinterlands" as anything is confused. The Hinterlands is just a space.
 

For me anything not directly leading to interesting story/characters/roleplaying opportunities is a grind, especially if I'm forced to do it. Going through the top levels of the Brecilian Forest ruin lead directly to the kind of story elements I like. Closing 10 rifts, pitching 6 tents, finding 3 lost rings, finding 3 bear pelts, herding 1 goat, killing 4 groups of red templars, and collecting 3 batches of elfroot in order to access the next main story quest is definitely a grind for me and one the game didn't need to force me to do.

So meaningless fights and minor content are good when you're forced to do them, and bad when you can choose which ones to do?

[pdusen]

No. Let us play how we like.
I happen to like the Hinterlands.

And what is it about the OP that makes you think they might agree with you?