155 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantdeathrobot]

I both agree and disagree, oddly enough. I agree that the story advances too quickly if side-content is avoided, but at the same time, I feel like there is a pretty big disconnect if Cullen tells me we need to assault Adamant immediately, before any more Wardens are turned into slaves, but then I go out to some zone and do... anything else, really. It's like how in ME3, the "Priority" missions were the ones you should do last if you want to do everything and get better outcomes from those Priority missions.

 

The only main mission I can headcanon into making sense is WEWH, because I can pretend that the ball is taking place on a specific date fairly far from when it's brought up. All of the others are time-sensitive, so taking days or weeks traveling to zones creates a disconnect.

 

As an aside: Even if you go directly to Adamant after learning about it, I don't understand how there are any wardens left. The process of binding them to demons is already underway when you find Erimond, then you have to travel all the way back to Skyhold (the Western Approach is the area furthest to the west you can go, so it's very far away), then have Josephine contact nobles to deliver trebuchets, then march an army and said trebuchets all the way back to the Approach on uneven terrain. That would take weeks! Erimond must be incredibly incompetent.

 

This happens in all RPGs, open world or semi-open world games even moreso. In Origins, the Darkspawn sit on their arses for the better part of a year as the Warden treks up and down Ferelden. In TW3, the urgency of finding Ciri (pursued by evil ghost elves that can teleport) doesn't stop Geralt from scouring Velen bare in search of crafting diagrams or Gwent cards. In Pillars of Eternity, there's supposed to be some urgency to the late-game but the main villain will patiently wait for you to finish all the side-quests before moving on with his nefarious plans. Your kidnapped baby in Fallout 4 can wait, you have tomatoes to plant. So on and so forth.

 

The alternative is to write a story with less urgency (potentially less interesting), force the player down a linear path (not welcomed by many, see FFXIII) or implement time limits of sorts, which are widely hated. Hell, Fallout 1 tried to include a time limit for its final objective, and people complained enough they patched it out.

[Eelectrica]

I know as a player I don't want to be punished for exploring the world and taking my time to do it.

 

In Pillars we can live our lives in Caed Nua, Babies will continue to be hollow born, Thaos will find some way to pass the time at Twin Elms until we decide to finish the game.

In Witcher 3 we can have Geralt go to the top of a mountain and meditate for a year saying "omm", Ciri will be where ciri is, Eridin will organise a fishing trip or hunting trip or something to pass the time.

 

I don't mind the game give me choices either. For example at the start of Wasteland 2 we're given a choice to save one place or other from an invasion of sorts.

You can choose which one to save, can't save both though.

[pdusen]

True, some of them give you 2 power however my statement also ignores the power requirements for unlocking zones for the main quest and companion quests. Not to mention that a lot of the quests give influence rather than power and without a guide you don't know which is which. It's hard for people who like the side content to understand (just as it's hard for me to understand people who skip cutscenes and conversations) but being forced to do this stuff is mind numbingly boring for some of us and the game forces you to do  a LOT of it. The power requirements actively deter me from playing the game again.

 

Don't mistake me for someone who loves the side-content. I, too, find it rather tedious. I just don't buy the argument that you need to waste time grinding it for power because that hasn't been true of any of my playthroughs.

[vbibbi]

This happens in all RPGs, open world or semi-open world games even moreso. In Origins, the Darkspawn sit on their arses for the better part of a year as the Warden treks up and down Ferelden. In TW3, the urgency of finding Ciri (pursued by evil ghost elves that can teleport) doesn't stop Geralt from scouring Velen bare in search of crafting diagrams or Gwent cards. In Pillars of Eternity, there's supposed to be some urgency to the late-game but the main villain will patiently wait for you to finish all the side-quests before moving on with his nefarious plans. Your kidnapped baby in Fallout 4 can wait, you have tomatoes to plant. So on and so forth.

 

The alternative is to write a story with less urgency (potentially less interesting), force the player down a linear path (not welcomed by many, see FFXIII) or implement time limits of sorts, which are widely hated. Hell, Fallout 1 tried to include a time limit for its final objective, and people complained enough they patched it out.

At least in TW3 context, it's logical that regardless of how much time Geralt spends putzing around, Ciri is safe, since

Spoiler

she's on that island of mist which the Wild Hunt can't find.

It doesn't make sense why Geralt would take his time when he doesn't know this, but it's not a narrative error that the Bad Guy doesn't win if we take too long.

 

I think DAO was fairly bad in this regard, as there is no reason why the darkspawn wouldn't be all over the surface after Ostagar, even if the archdemon doesn't decide to go to Denerim and destroy it. It seems the Blight needed to be less obvious in order to allow Loghain's refusal to allow Orlais troops in to be remotely plausible. If darkspawn were destroying the countryside, I think even he would realize that his civil war could go on the back burner.

 

For other games like PoE, though, I can headcanon that a lot of the side content which doesn't affect the main story is actually done after the end of the game. But since most games don't allow us to continue playing after the final quest, we're accessing it before it happens in the timeline. That was a good thing about DAI, allowing us to continue to play after DUATW, even though some references to Cory were anachronistic by that point.

[Giantdeathrobot]

At least in TW3 context, it's logical that regardless of how much time Geralt spends putzing around, Ciri is safe, since

Spoiler

she's on that island of mist which the Wild Hunt can't find.

It doesn't make sense why Geralt would take his time when he doesn't know this, but it's not a narrative error that the Bad Guy doesn't win if we take too long.

 

I think DAO was fairly bad in this regard, as there is no reason why the darkspawn wouldn't be all over the surface after Ostagar, even if the archdemon doesn't decide to go to Denerim and destroy it. It seems the Blight needed to be less obvious in order to allow Loghain's refusal to allow Orlais troops in to be remotely plausible. If darkspawn were destroying the countryside, I think even he would realize that his civil war could go on the back burner.

 

For other games like PoE, though, I can headcanon that a lot of the side content which doesn't affect the main story is actually done after the end of the game. But since most games don't allow us to continue playing after the final quest, we're accessing it before it happens in the timeline. That was a good thing about DAI, allowing us to continue to play after DUATW, even though some references to Cory were anachronistic by that point.

 

It does make some sense for Geralt to take his time after Avellach tells him where Ciri is, but that's halfway through the game. Beforehand he really shouldn't be wasting his time pursuing contracts and playing card games, but it's a video game so it works like that.

 

I actually thought Inquisition justified it to some extent. You need to build up the Inquisitor's power, and the urgency is dampened by the fact that you mostly know when and where the enemy will strike. Adamant is really the only part where you should be rushing as soon as you learn about it.

 

The wildly divergent endings is why Pillars doesn't allow you to play post-quest, like in New Vegas. Which is fine, but it really does strain suspension of disbelief when my character does tons outstanding side-quests all over the Dyrwood and then treks up to the White March for the fairly lengthy expansion, and Thaos is still chilling in Sun in Shadows doing who knows what. 

 

Big, sprawling RPGs will never really get rid of this problem, I'd wager. Unless you craft a story that justifies that the villains spend all their lives sitting here waiting for you to come kill them, like in Dark Souls. But then your story lacks urgency and I'm much less interested in it, the stakes simply seem less high.

[vbibbi]

It does make some sense for Geralt to take his time after Avellach tells him where Ciri is, but that's halfway through the game. Beforehand he really shouldn't be wasting his time pursuing contracts and playing card games, but it's a video game so it works like that.

 

I actually thought Inquisition justified it to some extent. You need to build up the Inquisitor's power, and the urgency is dampened by the fact that you mostly know when and where the enemy will strike. Adamant is really the only part where you should be rushing as soon as you learn about it.

 

The wildly divergent endings is why Pillars doesn't allow you to play post-quest, like in New Vegas. Which is fine, but it really does strain suspension of disbelief when my character does tons outstanding side-quests all over the Dyrwood and then treks up to the White March for the fairly lengthy expansion, and Thaos is still chilling in Sun in Shadows doing who knows what. 

 

Big, sprawling RPGs will never really get rid of this problem, I'd wager. Unless you craft a story that justifies that the villains spend all their lives sitting here waiting for you to come kill them, like in Dark Souls. But then your story lacks urgency and I'm much less interested in it, the stakes simply seem less high.

There is absolutely no reason why anyone shouldn't spend all of their time on Gwent.

[vanek2112]

I liked DAI overall, but the problems described by the OP are major flaws that need correcting for the next game.  I don't mind the occasional fetch quest but there should also be many in-depth side quests with interesting stories and characters.  That was completely lacking in DAI unfortunately.  The problem was further compounded by the lack of cinematics.  

 

I still think the game is enjoyable when sticking mostly to the main story and companions.  So I would advise to continue on with the game.

[AlanC9]

At least in TW3 context, it's logical that regardless of how much time Geralt spends putzing around, Ciri is safe, since

Spoiler

she's on that island of mist which the Wild Hunt can't find.

It doesn't make sense why Geralt would take his time when he doesn't know this, but it's not a narrative error that the Bad Guy doesn't win if we take too long.

 Similar to BG2, where the situation at Spellhold isn't going to deteriorate. Though after Spellhold there is a problem, since the PC's condition is supposed to be deteriorating but isn't.

[MaxQuartiroli]

This happens in all RPGs, open world or semi-open world games even moreso. In Origins, the Darkspawn sit on their arses for the better part of a year as the Warden treks up and down Ferelden. In TW3, the urgency of finding Ciri (pursued by evil ghost elves that can teleport) doesn't stop Geralt from scouring Velen bare in search of crafting diagrams or Gwent cards. In Pillars of Eternity, there's supposed to be some urgency to the late-game but the main villain will patiently wait for you to finish all the side-quests before moving on with his nefarious plans. Your kidnapped baby in Fallout 4 can wait, you have tomatoes to plant. So on and so forth.

 

The alternative is to write a story with less urgency (potentially less interesting), force the player down a linear path (not welcomed by many, see FFXIII) or implement time limits of sorts, which are widely hated. Hell, Fallout 1 tried to include a time limit for its final objective, and people complained enough they patched it out.

 

A good balance is the best choice imho, perhaps by giving more freedom to the player during the earlier moments of the game and then making the game a little more linear as the story move forward and you are near the end. A good example is BG2 where you have a lot of freedom during act 2, a freedom which is not unjistified since you have to raise a fair amount of money, which gives you the opportunity to explore the world and perform a lot of tasks. Since act 3 then the game become more linear and with less freedom, an approach that I liked a lot because I felt that the game and the whole story had always the right pace

 

On a side note I have recently realized that I really despise side quests that jump in during the latest moment of the game. Someone before mentioned PoE. While I enjoyed the quests in the first city I had many more problems when I arrived in the second big urban area beacuse at that moment the feeling of urgence was strongest and I really wanted to go to the end. A similar thing happened to me when I was playing DA:O with Ser Otto's quest, which I felt was totally out of place and was put in a very wrong moment of the game.

[AlanC9]

Though there's nothing actually stopping you from doing any of the BG2 Chapter 2 stuff after you're back on the man map.

[MaxQuartiroli]

Though there's nothing actually stopping you from doing any of the BG2 Chapter 2 stuff after you're back on the man map.

 

I keep forgetting about this because I leave almost nothing behind before I move to act 3.

So the game works fine, at least for me.

[vbibbi]

 Similar to BG2, where the situation at Spellhold isn't going to deteriorate. Though after Spellhold there is a problem, since the PC's condition is supposed to be deteriorating but isn't.

Though leaving Imoen to a magical asylum isn't the nicest thing a good aligned Bhaalspawn can do, so it's not perfect. If the PC wasn't actually close to Imoen then it's easier to rationalize, or if they're plain terrified of Irenicus and hope never to see him again, then delaying going makes a bit more sense.

 

Plus with the game's inflated economy, one could make the argument that the quest rewards are too high and a lot of daily living expenses are unaccounted for in the game's mechanics. So we wouldn't actually be earning as much money as the game presents, since a portion of it will need to go to meals, equipment, lodging, etc.

 

A good balance is the best choice imho, perhaps by giving more freedom to the player during the earlier moments of the game and then making the game a little more linear as the story move forward and you are near the end. A good example is BG2 where you have a lot of freedom during act 2, a freedom which is not unjistified since you have to raise a fair amount of money, which gives you the opportunity to explore the world and perform a lot of tasks. Since act 3 then the game become more linear and with less freedom, an approach that I liked a lot because I felt that the game and the whole story had always the right pace

 

On a side note I have recently realized that I really despise side quests that jump in during the latest moment of the game. Someone before mentioned PoE. While I enjoyed the quests in the first city I had many more problems when I arrived in the second big urban area beacuse at that moment the feeling of urgence was strongest and I really wanted to go to the end. A similar thing happened to me when I was playing DA:O with Ser Otto's quest, which I felt was totally out of place and was put in a very wrong moment of the game.

True, side quests past the 75-85% completion mark can drag down the momentum more noticeably than earlier in the game. The haunted orphanage is an interesting example because I think it was an interesting take on magic and demons being affected by violence and strong emotion, but it was at an odd position in the timeline. I think we could have had the Alienage open earlier and just restricted some of the buildings until we needed evidence against Loghain.

[BansheeOwnage]

This happens in all RPGs, open world or semi-open world games even moreso. In Origins, the Darkspawn sit on their arses for the better part of a year as the Warden treks up and down Ferelden. In TW3, the urgency of finding Ciri (pursued by evil ghost elves that can teleport) doesn't stop Geralt from scouring Velen bare in search of crafting diagrams or Gwent cards. In Pillars of Eternity, there's supposed to be some urgency to the late-game but the main villain will patiently wait for you to finish all the side-quests before moving on with his nefarious plans. Your kidnapped baby in Fallout 4 can wait, you have tomatoes to plant. So on and so forth.

 

The alternative is to write a story with less urgency (potentially less interesting), force the player down a linear path (not welcomed by many, see FFXIII) or implement time limits of sorts, which are widely hated. Hell, Fallout 1 tried to include a time limit for its final objective, and people complained enough they patched it out.

Yeah, it does happen all the time, and it has to, to a point. I definitely don't like time limits most of the time (although I didn't mind the very specific one in ME2), but I just think that maybe they can make the obligatory disconnect less obvious and ridiculous.

[AlanC9]

Though leaving Imoen to a magical asylum isn't the nicest thing a good aligned Bhaalspawn can do, so it's not perfect. If the PC wasn't actually close to Imoen then it's easier to rationalize, or if they're plain terrified of Irenicus and hope never to see him again, then delaying going makes a bit more sense.

That'd be hilarious, actually. Imoen and Irenicus could have sat there forever if the Bhaalspawn was enough of a coward.

Something about DAI Power I completely forgot about: it can simply be bought at 167 per point.

[vbibbi]

That'd be hilarious, actually. Imoen and Irenicus could have sat there forever if the Bhaalspawn was enough of a coward.

Something about DAI Power I completely forgot about: it can simply be bought at 167 per point.

At least if we're going by the cutscenes, Irenicus doesn't actually break free until Chapter 3. So I'll usually do all side quests in Chapter 2, knowing that Imoen is safe if confined, and then only do the Shadow Thieves/vampires quests in Chapter 3. This could make sense if even Irenicus needs significant time to regain his power, dampened by the aura of Spellhold.

[Melbella]

Something about DAI Power I completely forgot about: it can simply be bought at 167 per point.

It's even less than that if you have the discount perks. I usually buy all the level 1 (least expensive) and level 3 (2d most expensive) options once I get both perks. The influence you get is less than 1 gold per point, and power is down to 142 each. I normally don't need the power though, since I tend to do everything anyway.

[AlanC9]

At least if we're going by the cutscenes, Irenicus doesn't actually break free until Chapter 3. So I'll usually do all side quests in Chapter 2, knowing that Imoen is safe if confined, and then only do the Shadow Thieves/vampires quests in Chapter 3. This could make sense if even Irenicus needs significant time to regain his power, dampened by the aura of Spellhold.

It's not like your PC is watching those cutscenes, though. Which is an argument against having cutscenes like that in the first place

[vbibbi]

It's not like your PC is watching those cutscenes, though. Which is an argument against having cutscenes like that in the first place

True, I'm not using that as an excuse for the Bhaalspawn's actions, but I can use it to ease my personal guilty conscience for leaving Imoen in Spellhold while I complete all of the side quests.

 

 

ETA: This just made me think of something. I know people have also been against the DAO cutscenes to Loghain and Howe, since there's no way for the PC to know what's going on. (Although it could have worked if recruiting Zevran had provided a flashback to his recruitment from Loghain.)

 

I know it's never going to happen, but it would be interesting if games allowed for a toggle for us to view cutscenes the PC is not witness to, to give players a choice on how much they know that their character doesn't. Or have the game not show these cutscenes on a first playthrough, but once the game has been completed once, subsequent playthroughs show the scenes to provide a different perspective to the player who has already been through the whole story.

 

Again, I know that's not going to happen since that would be depriving players of content against their will.

Modifié par vbibbi, 16 mars 2016 - 01:58 .

[CronoDragoon]

Leaving the Hinterlands is good advice for moving the plot along, but it's not like most other zones have substantially more interesting quest chains in the area. A zone like Crestwood is more the exception than the norm. Of course the OP bought the DLCs as well, so they have Jaws of Hakkon, which is definitely the best-designed zone in the game, quest-wise. If I were to recommend a set of zones for the story-centric folk it would be: stick to the mandatory ones + Jaws and maybe Emprise du Lion.

[Sylvius the Mad]

The alternative is to write a story with less urgency (potentially less interesting), force the player down a linear path (not welcomed by many, see FFXIII) or implement time limits of sorts, which are widely hated. Hell, Fallout 1 tried to include a time limit for its final objective, and people complained enough they patched it out.

I've been calling for stories with less urgency for a great many years now. Partly for this reason, and partly because I want to get away from the Kill Foozle plot, where there's a bad guy doing bad things, and we need to stop him.

I'd love to see a plot where we're the driver of it, not the villain. Where we set out to accomplish something of our own accord, rather than reacting to someone else. I've never liked stories about relictant heroes; I'd rather see an ambitious hero who sees something in the world that can be changed and goes ahead and does it.

The best example I know of an RPG that wasn't a Kill Foozle was Ultima IV.

But the great thing about proactive heroes as opposed to reactive heroes is that they can work on their own schedule. That completely eliminates the urgency problem.

[AlanC9]

Leaving the Hinterlands is good advice for moving the plot along, but it's not like most other zones have substantially more interesting quest chains in the area. A zone like Crestwood is more the exception than the norm. Of course the OP bought the DLCs as well, so they have Jaws of Hakkon, which is definitely the best-designed zone in the game, quest-wise. If I were to recommend a set of zones for the story-centric folk it would be: stick to the mandatory ones + Jaws and maybe Emprise du Lion.

But you'll need quite a few levels to handle JoH, won't you?

I'd add Storm Coast since you need it to pick up Iron Bull. Maybe go ahead and deal with the Blades too, maybe not. Also note that the Samson quest-chain (assuming you did IHW) requires opening up both Emerald Graves and Emprise du Lion, and doing everything except seizing the Keep in Emprise. Inquisitor specializations can require opening particular zones too.

My first game I blew off Emprise, Emerald Graves, Fallow Mire, and the Hissing Wastes.

[JWvonGoethe]

But you'll need quite a few levels to handle JoH, won't you?

I'd add Storm Coast since you need it to pick up Iron Bull. Maybe go ahead and deal with the Blades too, maybe not. Also note that the Samson quest-chain (assuming you did IHW) requires opening up both Emerald Graves and Emprise du Lion, and doing everything except seizing the Keep in Emprise. Inquisitor specializations can require opening particular zones too.

My first game I blew off Emprise, Emerald Graves, Fallow Mire, and the Hissing Wastes.

I'd say The Fallow Mire is worth doing story-wise if you just make a run for the main quest. It only takes maybe 30 minutes and you get 4 conversations, two of which are cutscenes (Harding's introduction and the scene back at Skyhold) and you get to make a decision at the end that can factor in to how you deal with another character.

I tend to do The Fallow Mire on every playthrough and just completely ignore all the peripheral stuff, even the fade Rifts and camps. I like the atmosphere of the area and the story is a nice little bonus.

[CronoDragoon]

But you'll need quite a few levels to handle JoH, won't you?

I'd add Storm Coast since you need it to pick up Iron Bull. Maybe go ahead and deal with the Blades too, maybe not. Also note that the Samson quest-chain (assuming you did IHW) requires opening up both Emerald Graves and Emprise du Lion, and doing everything except seizing the Keep in Emprise. Inquisitor specializations can require opening particular zones too.

My first game I blew off Emprise, Emerald Graves, Fallow Mire, and the Hissing Wastes.

 

From what I've heard, maybe yeah. I did JoH after the main quest.

 

Storm Coast is a double-edged sword. Yeah, you need to unlock it anyway for recruiting characters, but it's probably one of the worst zones in the game at filling the area with interesting quests. So I guess it comes down to whether or not you feel you need the power.

[KaiserShep]

I always establish every camp, but unless I'm mistaken there's only 1 or possibly 2 sites in the Fallow Mire.

[vbibbi]

I always establish every camp, but unless I'm mistaken there's only 1 or possibly 2 sites in the Fallow Mire.

There are only two camps in FM, but the first is where we start, so we can only gain 1 power from camps in that zone. And only two rifts, which I'm a fan of.