85 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

The more I play DAI the more I find myself getting disillusioned with the Mage class in the game.

I am someone who is big on lore and according to the lore, Mages are supposed to be very powerful but also very dangerous, due to demons and possession. Furthermore, according to lore, we have four magical schools, each with their unique niche - Primal, Creation, Spirit and Entropy.

In DAO and in DA2 you have the Mage class that is quite accurately represented lore-wise. They are powerful, they are vulnerable to possession and they have the schools of magic.

However, now in DAI all that is practically gone. Mages in DAI put out either mediocre or decent crowd control and area of effect damage. All the powerful magics are either locked behind Focus or are only in cutscenes whereas in the previous two games you can cast Firestorm, Group Heal, Haste normally.

Moreover, in previous games, you did not have Vancian style spellcasting where you are limited to a specific number of spells because lore doesn't say so but now you have it but there is no justification for it. There is also no justification and no explanation given as to why the Four Schools of Magic were completely replaced with Inferno, Winter, Storm and Spirit schools and why some spells such as Walking Bomb and Horror are now specialized spells instead of being spells that are part of the Four Schools of Magic, which they were in the previous games.

Worse still, we do not see a single abomination or possessed mage in the game to fight. Which is absolutely ridiculous since we have a giant hole in the sky through which demons are coming through. I mean, Cullen gets all high and mighty when you ally with the mages by telling the protagonist that it was a great risk bringing mages unsupervised due to the Breach. Well yeah Cullen, show me a single abomination or possessed mage in the game ? We have mind-controlled mages in the form of Grey Warden mages but the abominations that were the staple of mage worry ? Gone. Not even a peek.

Its as if Bioware decided to turn mages into superhero mutants in DAI instead of people capable of great power while carrying a great deal of supernatural risk with that power. Other than that, ever noticed how the Mage Inquisitor never had to resist demonic temptation and possession attempt ? The Mage Warden had to in Origins and there were far less demons around then.

If you play on Nightmare with Trials, the only real way for Mages to put out consistent damage is to spam Fire Mine with Flaming Array upgrade or Walking Bomb or Stonefist or Energy Barrage over and over again. Whereas in previous games, you had multiple options when it comes to damaging a target.

Honestly, I am surprised that the Rebel Mages were able to survive for as long as they did when we see how weak and neutered the Mage class is in DAI compared to DAO and DA2.

[vertigomez]

Well, the whole idea behind demonic possession was that demons wanted to experience the world. With the rifts, they no longer need a host to do so.

Not sure what to tell you about mages getting nerfed. I'd say it's a consequence of playing a game with multiple classes. You don't want one of them to be too OP.

And honestly, a mage PC - whether Warden or Hawke - has never been in any danger of being possessed. The Fade sequences are obvious and the dialogue always gives you "heeeey waitaminute!" options to call out the demons, practically holding your hand the entire way. You come out feeling like a badass for resisting temptation and your companions look like a bunch of weak-willed suckas because, surprise surprise, they were taken in by the demon.

It would be nice if the PC experienced a demonic encounter that WASN'T butt-numbingly obvious, where even the player is fooled. Alas.

[Super Drone]

Its as if Bioware decided to turn mages into superhero mutants in DAI instead of people capable of great power while carrying a great deal of supernatural risk with that power. Other than that, ever noticed how the Mage Inquisitor never had to resist demonic temptation and possession attempt ? The Mage Warden had to in Origins and there were far less demons around then.

 

 

It's funny how you want Mages to be more powerful because lore says they trade power for a constant fear of possession, but the only example you have of the PC suffering for that power is a scripted event that never actually hurts your PC in any way. 

 

Mages should be powerful because Lore, but not be in any real danger because that's not fun

[Iakus]

For myself, I don't wish mages were more powerful, I just wish they weren't so boring to play.  The versatility they used to enjoy is pretty much gone in place of pew-pew.

 

I mean, Glyphs?  Hexes?  Buffs?  My Warden mage had almost no direct damage capability, just buffed and healed his allies while crippling his enemies and it was loads of fun.  His most offensive spell was summoning a skeleton minion.  Now you can't seem to make something afraid without setting fire to it or something.

[Merela]

Well, the whole idea behind demonic possession was that demons wanted to experience the world. With the rifts, they no longer need a host to do so.

 

Was it no said that the demons spawning through the rift were actually random spirits gone coocoo due to the whole passage being traumatizing and the "real" world making no sense to them, though? Do we actually see a demon willingly using a rift to get into the physical world (except for Envy)?

[AresKeith]

Was it no said that the demons spawning through the rift were actually random spirits gone coocoo due to the whole passage being traumatizing and the "real" world making no sense to them, though? Do we actually see a demon willingly using a rift to get into the physical world (except for Envy)?

 

I think Solas said that, which I could trust that anymore lol

[vertigomez]

Was it no said that the demons spawning through the rift were actually random spirits gone coocoo due to the whole passage being traumatizing and the "real" world making no sense to them, though? Do we actually see a demon willingly using a rift to get into the physical world (except for Envy)?

Hnnn, maybe not. But I figure it's the same difference. I'm sure a demon would rather waltz around in its own body than have to fight and finagle somebody for theirs, right?

[Iakus]

Was it no said that the demons spawning through the rift were actually random spirits gone coocoo due to the whole passage being traumatizing and the "real" world making no sense to them, though? Do we actually see a demon willingly using a rift to get into the physical world (except for Envy)?

COle says something of the sort.

 

But still, I would have expected demons, even spirits-turned-demons to be up to something more than hanging around a rift waiting for the Inquisition to come looking.

 

Certainly Pride demons should be up to...priding ...people.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

It's funny how you want Mages to be more powerful because lore says they trade power for a constant fear of possession, but the only example you have of the PC suffering for that power is a scripted event that never actually hurts your PC in any way. 

 

Mages should be powerful because Lore, but not be in any real danger because that's not fun

 

Yes that was a bad example but I want the danger and the power. That to me is the main reason to play as a mage, not to be a superhero mutant.

 

Cole says something of the sort.

 

But still, I would have expected demons, even spirits-turned-demons to be up to something more than hanging around a rift waiting for the Inquisition to come looking.

 

Certainly Pride demons should be up to...priding ...people.

 

Exactly but they don't. In fact most demons we see spend their time hanging around the Rifts not doing much of anything and only attacking if we approach it.

[thats1evildude]

Don't use the abilities of the PC and party members as a measuring stick for how "weak" mages have become. The PC and party members are meant to be extraordinary people, capable of achieving feats beyond the ken of mere mortals like you and I. The average Mage is stronger than the average person, but the Inquisitor and his allies are so above average that it's irrelevant.

There are abominations in the game, they're just not stated to be abominations. In Jaws of Hakkon, for instance, Grandin was possessed by a demon and he slaughtered a dozen or so Hakkonites.

[vertigomez]

I want the danger and the power. That to me is the main reason to play as a mage, not to be a superhero mutant.

The frustrating thing for me is that there's never been any danger. Instead, we're told that we're at constant risk and that we have to be stronger and more wily than the demons, which makes the player feel like an indestructible badass because... that never happens. Demons? We just blow them off. Terrified Citizen and/or Angry Templar is wary of us? They're overreacting. After all, we never have to worry, so why should they?

Needs moar scary, is what I'm saying.

[Iakus]

The frustrating thing for me is that there's never been any danger. Instead, we're told that we're at constant risk and that we have to be stronger and more wily than the demons, which makes the player feel like an indestructible badass because... that never happens. Demons? We just blow them off. Terrified Citizen and/or Angry Templar is wary of us? They're overreacting. After all, we never have to worry, so why should they?

Needs moar scary, is what I'm saying.

Maybe mages need to make Call of Cthulhu-style Sanity Checks sometimes 

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Don't use the abilities of the PC and party members as a measuring stick for how "weak" mages have become. The PC and party members are meant to be extraordinary people, capable of achieving feats beyond the ken of mere mortals like you and I. The average Mage is stronger than the average person, but the Inquisitor and his allies are so above average that it's irrelevant.

There are abominations in the game, they're just not stated to be abominations. In Jaws of Hakkon, for instance, Grandin was possessed by a demon and he slaughtered a dozen or so Hakkonites.

 

Mages in DAI are weak and neutered compared to mages in DA2 and DAO. A DAO or a DA2 mage would make a DAI mage their personal b*tch due to the difference in power level.

 

This is simply absurd because the Breach and the Rifts allowed for the Fade energies to enter Thedas which should have logically made magic more varied and more powerful. But nope, we got 3 elemental schools, 8 ability locks and focus.

 

So out of all the places in the game, especially near the Breach, we find one or two abominations lurking in the Frostback Basin and we do not even get to fight them ? Once again, this is preposterous.

 

 

The frustrating thing for me is that there's never been any danger. Instead, we're told that we're at constant risk and that we have to be stronger and more wily than the demons, which makes the player feel like an indestructible badass because... that never happens. Demons? We just blow them off. Terrified Citizen and/or Angry Templar is wary of us? They're overreacting. After all, we never have to worry, so why should they?

Needs moar scary, is what I'm saying.

 

Agreed.

[vertigomez]

Maybe mages need to make Call of Cthulhu-style Sanity Checks sometimes

Yes please. I would kill for a situation where we're in the Fade, but there's no Gaussian blur and no leading dialogue options that lead one to the very obvious conclusion that a monster is trying to hijack our body. Maybe a family member or love interest shows up and their personality's a little off, or they reference an event that never happened? That would be cool.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Yes please. I would kill for a situation where we're in the Fade, but there's no Gaussian blur and no leading dialogue options that lead one to the very obvious conclusion that a monster is trying to hijack our body. Maybe a family member or love interest shows up and their personality's a little off, or they reference an event that never happened? That would be cool.

 

This. If the the freaking Dread Wolf has demons trying to tempt him from time to time, it must logically follow that demons should try and tempt our mage protagonists as well.

 

It can be more than family member and love interest. It could also be a demon offering a player character an extra ability point or experience boost in exchange for possession (the possession part need not be so obvious). If the mage protagonist agrees, they get possessed and its game over. You have to make the temptations appealing to both the mage protagonist and the player as well.

[Phoe77]

I don't think the schools of magic have gone away.  They just chose to organize spells in a different way in this game.  Effects from all of the schools still exist after all.  Winter's Grasp isn't any less of a primal spell just because they put it under a different heading.  

 

It's also stated that the Breach has radically altered magic in several ways.  I believe the book that you find for the Rift Mage specialization mentions an experienced and powerful mage frying themselves because of how the Breach changed how mages interact with the power they use.  I only bring this up to suggest that there are other possibilities aside from the Breach making mages more powerful.  

 

As for abominations, weren't they always supposed to be relatively rare?  It's hard to keep that in mind, particularly after Kirkwall, but most people, mages included, go their whole lives without seeing an abomination, if I remember correctly.  If we take what Cole says about the rifts disorienting spirits and demons seriously (and why wouldn't we?), that could also further explain why we don't see as many possessions.  Either way, I personally think it's a nice break after seeing every non-companion mage turn to demons or blood magic in DA2.

[thats1evildude]

Mages in DAI are weak and neutered compared to mages in DA2 and DAO. A DAO or a DA2 mage would make a DAI mage their personal b*tch due to the difference in power level.

This is simply absurd because the Breach and the Rifts allowed for the Fade energies to enter Thedas which should have logically made magic more varied and more powerful. But nope, we got 3 elemental schools, 8 ability locks and focus.

So out of all the places in the game, especially near the Breach, we find one or two abominations lurking in the Frostback Basin and we do not even get to fight them ? Once again, this is preposterous.

Eh. Maybe it's because I don't play mages, but I didn't notice a substantial difference.

And you do fight Grandin. I totally killed his ass. He was tough, though I've fought harder.

[MidnightWolf]

Yup, Mages suck in this game. My female elf, shape-shifting blood Mage Warden, would wipe the floor my human Mage Inqusitor. Tis why I stopped playing Mage and moved over to Rogue artificer archer.

[Big I]

I dunno, I think I prefer some aspects of DA:I mages to DA:O ones. Specifically, I think I enjoyed playing Knight Enchanter more than Arcane Warrior. AW felt very equipment dependent to me (you needed to have the right armor set to get the most out of it), whereas KE could become an unkillable teleporting Juggernaut almost from the beginning.

[Phoe77]

I agree that Inquisition (and even DA2) improved on mages in a few ways.  Origins had a much larger spell selection, but I found a lot of those spells to be redundant or just plain not worth using.  I would still like to see more variety than what we got in Inquisition, especially in non-elemental magic, but at least most of them had their own unique functions.  The addition of ability modifiers really helps here too.  

 

Aside from that, my favorite changes are the move away from spell lines and towards spell webs and lowering the cooldown of individual abilities while simultaneously upping the rate of mana reduction.  It's nice to be able to remain active throughout the whole fight without having to chug potions or spend portions tickling enemies with your magical projectiles while your mana refills.

[KaiserShep]

Eh, still better than the walking Xanax pill that was DAO's mage. DA2's is my favorite though, because force mage is just so much fun to watch, marred only by it affecting which sibling lives. Stupid Carver.

[Phoe77]

I like force mage, but I can't pass up the spec that allows me to make Hawke impale himself on his staff.  

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I don't think the schools of magic have gone away.  They just chose to organize spells in a different way in this game.  Effects from all of the schools still exist after all.  Winter's Grasp isn't any less of a primal spell just because they put it under a different heading.  

 

It's also stated that the Breach has radically altered magic in several ways.  I believe the book that you find for the Rift Mage specialization mentions an experienced and powerful mage frying themselves because of how the Breach changed how mages interact with the power they use.  I only bring this up to suggest that there are other possibilities aside from the Breach making mages more powerful.  

 

As for abominations, weren't they always supposed to be relatively rare?  It's hard to keep that in mind, particularly after Kirkwall, but most people, mages included, go their whole lives without seeing an abomination, if I remember correctly.  If we take what Cole says about the rifts disorienting spirits and demons seriously (and why wouldn't we?), that could also further explain why we don't see as many possessions.  Either way, I personally think it's a nice break after seeing every non-companion mage turn to demons or blood magic in DA2.

 

So now blatant retconning is just "reorganization" ? Funny you should bring up Winter's Grasp, That spell was a Tier 1 spell with a cheap mana cost in DAO and DA2 and now in DAI, it becomes a spell with very high mana cost and mediocre damage unless comboed. What is that if not devolvement and inferiority in magic ?

 

In fact, I can make the point that Kinloch Hold, the Gallows and Kirkwall apostates have superior magic compared to Clan Lavellan Keeper training, Adaar's training and Ostwick's Circle of Magi training.

 

Yes, mages should be more powerful than they ever have been due to the Breach but compared to DAO and DA2, they are most definitely not.

 

Abominations were rare ? We had plenty in DA2. Yes, it was a refreshing change of pace but once again, we have a giant hole in the sky and many other smaller holes through which demons are coming through. We also know that an abomination is more powerful than a singular mage or a singular demon because abominations are a combination of the two. Additionally, we have demons like Pride Demons who did not do anything a Pride Demon was supposed to do such as tricking people. All Pride Demons do in DAI is spam lightning attacks ? Also, whatever happened to Desire Demons ? I guess the rifts and the Breach must have political correctness filter that did not allow them to pass through.

 

[vertigomez]

So now blatant retconning is just "reorganization" ? Funny you should bring up Winter's Grasp, That spell was a Tier 1 spell with a cheap mana cost in DAO and DA2 and now in DAI, it becomes a spell with very high mana cost and mediocre damage unless comboed. What is that if not devolvement and inferiority in magic ?

In fact, I can make the point that Kinloch Hold, the Gallows and Kirkwall apostates have superior magic compared to Clan Lavellan Keeper training, Adaar's training and Ostwick's Circle of Magi training.

Yes, mages should be more powerful than they ever have been due to the Breach but compared to DAO and DA2, they are most definitely not.

I'm sorry, but there's just a certain point where you have to recognize that there will be a noticeable difference between game mechanics and lore. Why can we chug lyrium potions and not become addicted as the Templars do? Why did none of our companions in DAO get infected with the Blight when there were darkspawn - and blood spatter effects - EVERYWHERE? Why did we drink poultices in the first game when that's not what a poultice is for? Why does a blood mage PC never hear the insidious whisper of demons tugging at their subconscious when we know that's in the lore? How can Alistair hold a shield with two broken arms and a cracked skull?

Abominations were rare ? We had plenty in DA2. Yes, it was a refreshing change of pace but once again, we have a giant hole in the sky and many other smaller holes through which demons are coming through. We also know that an abomination is more powerful than a singular mage or a singular demon because abominations are a combination of the two. Additionally, we have demons like Pride Demons who did not do anything a Pride Demon was supposed to do such as tricking people. All Pride Demons do in DAI is spam lightning attacks ? Also, whatever happened to Desire Demons ? I guess the rifts and the Breach must have political correctness filter that did not allow them to pass through.

Desire Demons still exist. See: Imshael. And most of the demons coming through the rifts are out of their minds, so I don't expect a lot of subtle manipulation on their part, except in a few really powerful cases like what we see in-game.

I figure abominations were more common in DA2 because Kirkwall was an ancient hotbed of blood magic and sacrifice, and had a history of pain and violence (Blights, wars, revolutions, slavery), drawing demons from the Fade without warping their sanity by forcibly chucking them through the Veil. The demons falling through the sky in DAI don't need to hijack somebody's body to wreak havoc. They have their own.

[Medhia_Nox]

There are at least three kinds of magical representation - with tons of variation between them. 

 

- Caster as superhero.  Born this way. This kind of mage is represented as mostly a blaster, very similar to a psionic and largely just "badass".  Very popular in anime, in comics and in a great deal of video games.  The D&D sorcerer and warlock classes fall into this.  

 

- Caster as scientist.  Self-made man. This is often the wizard studying arcane lore to understanding the trappings of their own fantasy universe.  I'd argue that the most popular is the D&D wizard class.  It is also represented in quite a bit of steampunk, or steampunk derivatives.  While having some classical manifestations as well. Notably characters like Dr. Victor Frankenstein and Dr. Henry Jekyll. 

 

- Caster as occultists.  Dabbler in terrible mysteries.  Very popular in gothic horror.  Sword and sorcery.  D&D has no analogue except, perhaps, if you took various non-caster avenues to magic available (Warlock does NOT fit this... as players often disregard their pacts for anything more than flavor).  Also, being high fantasy - D&D usually doesn't have room for the "terror" aspect of casting.  Also popular in many modern style magical tellings.  Call of Cthulhu.  Warhammer (fantasy and 40K).  Conan. 

 

I believe Dragon Age touched upon casters as occultists... but has now landed in casters as superheroes.