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[The dead fish]

Thanks god, finally someone else said it...

 

Honestly ? In DAO and DAII I felt the templars could be useful regardless of what I was thinking about them. But in DA:I ? Not only I feel they are totally useless, but I also feel their goals are weird, and Cullen totally appears like an incompetent ! Mages aren't at all dangerous in the last episode, not a single one, not even once. What i've seen about mages in DA:I is just a bunch of desesperate people, most of them refugies, who seek to be free, unfairly purchased by the templars, who don't really seem that much powerful and threatening to the world compared to what claim the templars. Those people who are scared regarding the mages, they don't seem reasonable to me, if I don't take into account the previous episodes. Because again, what is said about mages and the danger they could be doesn't seem REAL ! 

 

The shift from DAII in the tone about mages is just astonishing. There it was showed to me something totally different and I could totally understand both point of view even if I was more in one side than in another. I would have played DA:I without the previous games, I would have NEVER understood the point of the templars, about how mages could be dangerous. 

 

" Mages are dangerous ! Mages are dangerous ! If you ally with them, we are going to see some mages turning into demons among our ranks ! " Yeah, no. Nothing happened at all.  Didn't see anything that could show me Cullen could be right. It's only thanks to the previous episodes and everything I read in the lore that I am able to see the whole thing overall. 

 

Let me be clear. I'm not talking from the point of view of a pro-templar or a pro- anything else. i am talking as a neutral guy who likes things and a world which are consistent from one episode to another one. I terribly felt that DA:I lacked something on this topic, but to be honest the whole mage-templar topic felt a bit bland and superficial.

[Witch Cocktor]

In DA2, the amount of abominations and possessions was annoying and suffocating. I was like '' why the heck would I even CONSIDER mage freedom when most of the mages I meet in this game have been turned into abominations or are possessed. ''

 

I mean, I guess mages were prone to possession due to how they were treated in Kirkwall(?????????) but you know.

 

Call me boring but I much prefer the '' mages are scary because of the power they weild '' option, because the question of mage freedom becomes less obvious, TO ME that is. I can't say that all mages are bad because some use their powers unjustly, BUT I can be suspicious of all mages and not support their freedom if they are so easily possessed and turned into abominations.

 

I enjoy the grey area. 

 

The spells (and schools) in DA:I pale in comparison to DA2 though, THAT MUCH IS TRUE.

[MidnightWolf]

In DA2, the amount of abominations and possessions was annoying and suffocating. I was like '' why the heck would I even CONSIDER mage freedom when most of the mages I meet in this game have been turned into abominations or are possessed. ''
 
I mean, I guess mages were prone to possession due to how they were treated in Kirkwall(?????????) but you know.
 
Call me boring but I much prefer the '' mages are scary because of the power they weild '' option, because the question of mage freedom becomes less obvious, TO ME that is. I can't say that all mages are bad because some use their powers unjustly, BUT I can be suspicious of all mages and not support their freedom if they are so easily possessed and turned into abominations.
 
I enjoy the grey area. 
 
The spells (and schools) in DA:I pale in comparison to DA2 though, THAT MUCH IS TRUE.

To be fair, the situation in Kirkwall was mainly due to its history, and the veil being thinner than spider silk. It's kind of understandable that it drove so many mages nuts.

[Phoe77]

The Schools of Magic is a system of magical classification officially recognized and developed by the Circles of Magi via research. It is prevalent throughout Thedas to the point even some Dalish Elves like Merrill and Velanna as well as some Witches like Morrigan use the classification.

 

http://dragonage.wik...f_Magic:_Primal

 

http://dragonage.wik...f_Magic:_Spirit

 

http://dragonage.wik...Magic:_Creation

 

http://dragonage.wik..._Magic:_Entropy

 

The easiest way to view the Schools of Magic classification is to think of it as the International System of Units / SI Units. Its a standard that was set upon by scholars and researchers which became the norm in Thedas.

 

Are you going to tell me that this standard, which had been developed and used for a very long time, is suddenly gone in the space of 2 years, between DA2 and DAI, and replaced by a simplistic un-nuanced system that is immediately adopted by mages everywhere ? Bear in mind that the mages across Thedas were rebelling against the Chantry so I doubt there was a conference of First Enchanters that debated this issue, agreed upon this change, issued the appropriate spell list that then was widespread and adopted even by Dalish clans and Tal-Vashoth. Are you high on Elfroot or Lyrium Dust ?

 

Your argument that this is merely a "library reorganization" is an ignorant one that lacks contextualization. Its like saying that the people in a continent, people all over that continent, a continent which has been primarily using the Imperial system of measurement, adopted and used Metric within a span of two years while many parts of the continent were engulfed in conflict and they did so despite the lack of sophisticated communication system to facilitate the efficient exchange of information over long distances.

 

This is even more absurd when you consider the reality that people that when people are in conflict won't spend their time developing a new system of classification, they will simply fall back to what they know, to what is tried and tested. Because its war and people ain't got time to somehow challenge and change a long established classification orthodoxy and simply adopt a new classification system.

 

In short, the changes seen to the schools of magic is a retcon and not only that, it is also stupid, illogical and it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

 

I'm going to tell you that no one is forced to use SI measurements in their writings unless they're going to be put forth to their peers.  Nobody in the word would have cared what units I used when I was taking notes during chemistry class so long as I was able to convert to the proper ones when I was turning in homework.  No one is going to care if the Inquisitor decides to organize the spells in his personal grimoire based on elemental affinity instead of which school they belong to as long as he still recognizes and understands the system of magical schools.

 

Of course, this is largely irrelevant since the comparison to SI units is flawed.  Absolutely nothing at all suggests that a new system has been adopted by magical theorists.  As a matter of fact, the system of categorization that you have such a huge problem with doesn't even necessarily exist in the game's universe.  They are a gameplay element, just like every other menu in the pause screen.  

[Medhia_Nox]

To be fair, the situation in Kirkwall was mainly due to its history, and the veil being thinner than spider silk. It's kind of understandable that it drove so many mages nuts.

 

Even so... I can think of only two possessions and no abominations.  One possession of a non-mage and the other only possible if you allow it (Feynriel).

[Bayonet Hipshot]

I'm going to tell you that no one is forced to use SI measurements in their writings unless they're going to be put forth to their peers.  Nobody in the word would have cared what units I used when I was taking notes during chemistry class so long as I was able to convert to the proper ones when I was turning in homework.  No one is going to care if the Inquisitor decides to organize the spells in his personal grimoire based on elemental affinity instead of which school they belong to as long as he still recognizes and understands the system of magical schools.

 

Of course, this is largely irrelevant since the comparison to SI units is flawed.  Absolutely nothing at all suggests that a new system has been adopted by magical theorists.  As a matter of fact, the system of categorization that you have such a huge problem with doesn't even necessarily exist in the game's universe.  They are a gameplay element, just like every other menu in the pause screen.  

 

1) Mages in Thedas are not Wizards and they do not use spellbooks or grimoires for battle. So I have no idea where you got the notion that mages in Thedas keep a spell list in a grimoire.

 

2) Every mage in the game including Vivienne and Dorian use this new neutered spell classification system even though it makes no sense for them do to do.

 

3) No one is going to care ? I care. People who want a consistent game with consistent lore instead of sensationalist nonsense care.

 

4) Also, where are the Creation and Entropy spells in the base game ? You mention that they are somehow there but I don't see it. Healing is gone. Enhancements is gone. We have no Paralysis or Repulsion Glyphs. We have no Hexes. FFS, where are the Earth and Nature spells ? You would think a Mage Lavellan would know how to do it, being the First of their Clan. Even Neria, the Keeper in multiplayer doesn't know spells from the Keeper specialization.

 

5) Doesn't even exist in the game's universe. Then why do they exist in the Codex and it is part of a treatise written by a former First Enchanter. They are not merely gameplay elements, they are part of the lore. If it is simply a gameplay element we would not have First Enchanters giving lectures and writing treatises about this. That makes no sense.

 

Talk about performing mental gymnastics and grasping at straws to justify the neutering of mages and magic.

[Catilina]

In DA2, the amount of abominations and possessions was annoying and suffocating. I was like '' why the heck would I even CONSIDER mage freedom when most of the mages I meet in this game have been turned into abominations or are possessed. ''

 

I mean, I guess mages were prone to possession due to how they were treated in Kirkwall(?????????) but you know.

 

Call me boring but I much prefer the '' mages are scary because of the power they weild '' option, because the question of mage freedom becomes less obvious, TO ME that is. I can't say that all mages are bad because some use their powers unjustly, BUT I can be suspicious of all mages and not support their freedom if they are so easily possessed and turned into abominations.

 

I enjoy the grey area. 

 

The spells (and schools) in DA:I pale in comparison to DA2 though, THAT MUCH IS TRUE.

 

That was my first reaction to me in DA2, but of oppression and fear, often forcing people to desperate steps. The imprisonment not a good idea. You see: the detention is not resolved by the situation in Kirkwall. The Templars (with leadership of Knight Commander Meredith) are certainly not ...

By the way: what about red templars?

[The dead fish]

I didn't feel at all DA:I was grey. Mages to me only seemed useful and human, desesperate, not specifically dangerous to the point we should consider them as the biggest thing to distrust. They didn't seem more threatening than a bunch of dangerous guys with swords. Just different. So the " we fear them because of the power they weild "  falls as a bit flat to me. That seems more irrational than anything else to me.

 

What is specific to mages is the scale of their power and how it could be devastasting to the world, once they lose control or go too far with their experience, and how they could turn very easily into very powerful abomination, even the best of them. This is this reason that makes understandable the point of view of the templars. 

 

I've read plenty of examples of what could do an abomination, and yes, there I saw the reason why reasonable people might fear them. 

 

' We should put mages in a circle far away from people just because we fear what they might do ' is way too weak to be considered as a grey area to me. DAO and DAII were fine to me overall. Even if I felt that Meredith was dumb at the end. She was going to eradicate a whole circle because of a mage that didn't come from it, outside of it, and who barely had contact with those mages. There was no solid justification, just a political one about how the " people  would like revenge. "

[Medhia_Nox]

@BayonetHipshot:  What I think they should have done is something like this. 

 

Primalist:  Four Primal school branches - Spirit and Specialist.

 

Hierophant:  Four Creation school branches - Spirit and Specialist

 

Abjurer:  Four Spirit school branches - Spirit and Specialist

 

Entropist:  Four Entropy school branches - Spirit and Specialist. 

 

Yes I think they should have had four different mages available for choice at character creation.  I think that would have served to keep the mage concept varied... while also keeping true to what they established in the first game... while also maintaining a concept that focusing in specific schools is something mage tend to do (example:  Focusing on healing is very hard).  

 

NOTE:  I could also do this to rogue and warrior and I think it would only improve DA as an RPG.

[Toasted Llama]

Mages aren't at all dangerous in the last episode, not a single one, not even once.

 

... Alexius? Corypheus? Solas?

 

I'd argue a mage with time travel, a body-hopping magister with a pet lyrium dragon and an elven mage who created the Veil (which destroyed the old elven race) and now wants to destroy the Veil (which will destroy everythnig in current Thedas) are quite dangerous.

 

Of course, they all got defeated, but that doesn't make them any less dangerous, as it is the point of the game to defeat them.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

*snip*

 

Like Medhia_Nox stated :- Mages in Thedas have turned into superhero mutants instead of individuals capable of great deal of power yet that power comes at a great risk and great cost both to them and others around them.

 

The great power is gone unless if you think spamming one or two spells and relying on regenerating barrier is powerful. The only time mages are depicted as being actually powerful is in the cutscenes.

 

Truly for all of Solas and Corypheus power levels, they were weak in gameplay. Solas's specialization bugs out with Lightning spells (you would think an Ancient Elf knows how to use Lightning properly). Corypheus is weaker than he was in DA2. In DAI he just spams Red Lyrium crap and that's it whereas in DA2 Legacy he pretty much made all the 4 elements (Earth, Air, Fire and Lightning) his personal b*tch.

 

The great risk and costs are pretty much nonexistent because abominations across Ferelden and Orlais are somehow rarer and lesser compared to a single city in the Free Marches, Kirkwall.

 

*snip*

 

Agreed Medhia but Bioware did not do that so...

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Spam one ability to be challenging and that ability is a defensive cloak. Yet there are people who still believe DAI mages are not neutered compared to DA2 and DAO mages.

 

DAO mages use Chain Lighting (a powerful version), Curse of Mortality, Crushing Prison, Fireball, etc. DA2 mages use Telekinetic Burst, Fade Step, Arcane Shield, Blood Wound, etc. DAI 

The effectiveness of some spell depends on how the enemy is able to handle them.

Some enemies of DAO could resist to both fireball,crushing prison and all these magic most people see as overpowered,it just require the appropriate resistance.

If one worked in elusiveness trough armor stats enemies weren't even able to catch the warden with their attacks either physical or magical and those things were game braking for DAO allowing you to solo the game without being even touched

[MidnightWolf]

Like Medhia_Nox stated :- Mages in Thedas have turned into superhero mutants instead of individuals capable of great deal of power yet that power comes at a great risk and great cost both to them and others around them.
 
The great power is gone unless if you think spamming one or two spells and relying on regenerating barrier is powerful.
 
The great risk and costs are pretty much nonexistent because abominations across Ferelden and Orlais are somehow rarer and lesser compared to a single city in the Free Marches, Kirkwall.

One place in DA:I where abominations and possession SHOULD have taken place is the exalted plains. Demons and undead constantly wander that place, even when all rifts are closed, due to the bloodshed which has happened there.
I've lost count of the number of times I've come across A rage demon and a pack of shades fighting undead. These demons certainly were not drawn across by rifts, but through their own volition.

[The Baconer]

Even so... I can think of only two possessions and no abominations.  One possession of a non-mage and the other only possible if you allow it (Feynriel).

 

Evelina, Grave, Olivia, and the Keeper of Merrill's clan all became abominations. 

[MidnightWolf]

The effectiveness of some spell depends on how the enemy is able to handle them.
Some enemies of DAO could resist to both fireball,crushing prison and all these magic most people see as overpowered,it just require the appropriate resistance.
If one worked in elusiveness trough armor stats enemies weren't even able to catch the warden with their attacks either physical or magical and those things were game braking for DAO allowing you to solo the game without being even touched

You are right about resistances. However, as a user of crushing person, I can honestly say that not even Alpha Orgers were resistant to it. I remember Denerim being over run with them during the final battle, so I'd use crushing Prison while Alistair and the other finished them off.
I miss that spell *sobs*

[Medhia_Nox]

Evelina, Grave, Olivia, and the Keeper of Merrill's clan all became abominations. 

Cool, thank you... 

 

Still, they're not the abominations from The Broken Circle right?  I'd really love for Bioware to sort out their lore.  

[The dead fish]

... Alexius? Corypheus? Solas?

 

I'd argue a mage with time travel, a body-hopping magister with a pet lyrium dragon and an elven mage who created the Veil (which destroyed the old elven race) and now wants to destroy the Veil (which will destroy everythnig in current Thedas) are quite dangerous.

 

Of course, they all got defeated, but that doesn't make them any less dangerous, as it is the point of the game to defeat them.

 

I just thought, bad guys, not mages. Solas is semi god, so he doesn't count to me, and Alexius got his possibility thanks to what happened.

 

 Again, what is more threatening with mages as a group is the scale, the cost and risk of their power, less what they might do with it with human thoughts like any other man. Not all mages are bad. Especially when I see many mages who are innocents and willing to serve at the same time. There will be always some bad guys. 

 

The fact that any mage for example can be easily turned into an abomination just because he slept, is certainly more threatening to me. Because there, that concerns a whole system, a whole people at a terrible scale, not just a few bad crazy guys. It means that even innocents among mages, especially children and those who never learned to control their power are dangerous and can easily turn into bad guys against their will. 

[BansheeOwnage]

Agreed. Templars, especially the red ones, should be far more powerful than there are. But as it is, even with the trials on, their just re-skinned outlaws with absolutely no special powers at all.

It gets even more ridiculous when you consider that the Red Templars' weapons either incorporate red lyrium (tipped arrows) or are red lyrium (shadow blade-arms). I mean, normal unrefined lyrium is supposed to basically kill a mage on contact, nevermind the red stuff.

 

Alas, it's clear that part of the lore isn't payed attention to anymore - just look at The Descent! Even if you can make some excuses for the combat, there is no way you can handwave or rationalize the amount of raw lyrium you're around or touching in that DLC. That should be killing your non-mages, and yet your mages don't even mention a headache!

[MidnightWolf]

It gets even more ridiculous when you consider that the Red Templars' weapons either incorporate red lyrium (tipped arrows) or are red lyrium (shadow blade-arms). I mean, normal unrefined lyrium is supposed to basically kill a mage on contact, nevermind the red stuff.
 
Alas, it's clear that part of the lore isn't payed attention to anymore - just look at The Descent! Even if you can make some excuses for the combat, there is no way you can handwave or rationalize the amount of raw lyrium you're around or touching in that DLC. That should be killing your non-mages, and yet your mages don't even mention a headache!

Yeah I noticed in Emprise Du Lion Dorian groans that the red stuff is giving him a headache. But in the deep roads he merely comments on the sky being lit like stars, or something.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

It gets even more ridiculous when you consider that the Red Templars' weapons either incorporate red lyrium (tipped arrows) or are red lyrium (shadow blade-arms). I mean, normal unrefined lyrium is supposed to basically kill a mage on contact, nevermind the red stuff.

 

Alas, it's clear that part of the lore isn't payed attention to anymore - just look at The Descent! Even if you can make some excuses for the combat, there is no way you can handwave or rationalize the amount of raw lyrium you're around or touching in that DLC. That should be killing your non-mages, and yet your mages don't even mention a headache!

 

[AutumnWitch]

The mages were WAY powered down in DAI in the beginning levels. However, once you reach level 15-ish and higher you really start doing massive damage esp to groups of people at the same time. Also if you choose the KE path, you become pretty much indestructible (where as in the beginning a stiff breeze will kill you.). Still you are nowhere near the power levels mages are in DAO but I have to admit its pretty dame fun wiping out dozens of enemies with a few spells. Even when I play on NM with both the "Even Ground" and "Walk Softly" trials selected, I more than not wipe out most of the non-demon enemies before the tanks even reach them.

 

Another things that REALLY annoyed me is that all we do in DA2 is hear about how powerful Qunari mages are but if we play as Qunari Mage we're the same as humans. Also, it makes NO SENSE if you play a Dalish Mage you don't have Dalish/Keeper spells/specialization option. So LAME. I assume that since they added the additional races at the end they didn't have time to add new spell trees for Qunari and the Dalish. Still really annoys me.

 

I have played DAO, DA2 and DAI about 30 times each now, while usually playing as a Mage and I put the Mages in DAI less powerful than DAO but more powerful than DA2.

 

Its to my understanding a lot of people were complaining that the mages in DAO and DA2 were too powerful so they reeled them in a bit.

 

Also rogues are really over powered in DAI IMO.

[AresKeith]

Alas, it's clear that part of the lore isn't payed attention to anymore - just look at The Descent! Even if you can make some excuses for the combat, there is no way you can handwave or rationalize the amount of raw lyrium you're around or touching in that DLC. That should be killing your non-mages, and yet your mages don't even mention a headache!

 

This is an issue now, when this was a thing back in DAO?

[Giantdeathrobot]

It gets even more ridiculous when you consider that the Red Templars' weapons either incorporate red lyrium (tipped arrows) or are red lyrium (shadow blade-arms). I mean, normal unrefined lyrium is supposed to basically kill a mage on contact, nevermind the red stuff.

 

Alas, it's clear that part of the lore isn't payed attention to anymore - just look at The Descent! Even if you can make some excuses for the combat, there is no way you can handwave or rationalize the amount of raw lyrium you're around or touching in that DLC. That should be killing your non-mages, and yet your mages don't even mention a headache!

 

We did the exact same thing in Origins. The zone the Anvil of the Void was in had many exposed lyrium veins that never ended up being a danger to us.

 

Personally I'd have prefered if Bioware never implemented that part of the lore instead of just ignoring it since the first game. I can excuse Darkspawn not tainting our party members for gameplay reasons, but avoiding exposed Lyrium while fighting foes could be a nice gameplay mechanic, or detonate it with spells or something.

[Toasted Llama]

I just thought, bad guys, not mages. Solas is semi god, so he doesn't count to me, and Alexius got his possibility thanks to what happened.

 

 Again, what is more threatening with mages as a group is the scale, the cost and risk of their power, less what they might do with it with human thoughts like any other man. Not all mages are bad. Especially when I see many mages who are innocents and willing to serve at the same time. There will be always some bad guys. 

 

The fact that any mage for example can be easily turned into an abomination just because he slept, is certainly more threatening to me. Because there, that concerns a whole system, a whole people at a terrible scale, not just a few bad crazy guys. It means that even innocents among mages, especially children and those who never learned to control their power are dangerous and can easily turn into bad guys against their will. 

 

Oh I'm not disagreeing with your main comment, but if we're getting into specifics, it's not entirely correct to say that not a single mage was dangerous. Your every day run of the mill type of mage? Sure, I haven't seen any of those going bonkers (Although I did abandon sidequests after weeding out the Hinterlands, the Storm Coast and the Fallow Mire, so I can't be 100% sure). But you can't argue that Solas, Corypheus and Alexius would've gotten where they are in DA:I without magic. Solas needed his magic to create the Veil, Corypheus needed his magic to enter the Golden City and get corrupted and Alexius needed his magic to study the possibility of time magic (even if the mage rebellion didn't happen in southern Thedas and he never got to reach Fiona, I doubt the discovery of time magic would pass without a hassle. I'm still chalking him up as dangerous due to magic abilities)

[BansheeOwnage]

This is an issue now, when this was a thing back in DAO?

 

We did the exact same thing in Origins. The zone the Anvil of the Void was in had many exposed lyrium veins that never ended up being a danger to us.

 

Personally I'd have prefered if Bioware never implemented that part of the lore instead of just ignoring it since the first game. I can excuse Darkspawn not tainting our party members for gameplay reasons, but avoiding exposed Lyrium while fighting foes could be a nice gameplay mechanic, or detonate it with spells or something.

It was always an issue, true. I suppose I should have said "They've never payed attention to that" instead of "They don't anymore". Still, you can't top Descent for how ridiculous an inconsistency it is.

 

Anyway, I agree. They should have either woven it into the game or not made that bit of lore in the first place. I don't recall it even being plot-relevant either.