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Will Solas's plan kill modern elves? (Spoilers)


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#26
Gervaise

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What we do know is that if a being has a powerful enough spirit/soul then it doesn't die but can return to the Fade and regenerate or jump into another body if available.   Solas has always banged on about how spirits are real people and in fact he clearly sees them as such even before he grudgingly acknowledges that the modern races might be.    Given how Cole comes into being, it does seem a strong possibility that the ancient elves at least were originally spirits that crossed into the material world and gradually became more material as a result.    However, the more they became beings with complex emotions, the greater their risk of corruption, which is essentially, I believe, what happened with the Evanuris.    Solas can be speaking the truth when he says he is not a spirit because he is more than a simple spirit; he is a spirit made flesh.  

 

So I'm pretty sure his plan involves everyone dying, including himself, so they can return to their spiritual form and inhabit his newly made world with no Veil.   Those who have a strong enough identity prior to this action will probably remember something of themselves; those who do not will simply begin again.   So in his mind, everyone will continue to "exist" as a spirit, just not as the person they once were.   May be modern elves, with their magical blood, will have a better chance of surviving with some sort of identity to their spirit and regenerating as a material being.   He could even have convinced them of this magical transformation, which is why they are willing to go along with his plan.    Alternatively, he may simply need a large enough gathering of willing sacrifices to fuel the magic needed to tear down the Veil.     It wouldn't be the first time that a cult leader has convinced his followers of the need to commit mass suicide to bring about their transformation to a higher plane of existence.

 

Alternatively, he was just speaking in symbolic/metaphorical terms, so world burning in fiery chaos was just a "poetic" way of describing the affects of tearing down the Veil on the established order and this world "dying" was simply the fact that nothing would operate in the same way in the "reborn" world of the elves.    So the other races would still be alive but the social pecking order would transform somewhat and the world would seem a much more hostile environment to them.   This could be borne out by the fact that in the dark future in Hushed Whispers the world and the Fade had already merged and yet everyone hadn't died but the world was anything but pleasant.

 

Of course, judging by his previous efforts, what Solas thinks will happen and what actually does happen are two entirely different things.


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#27
Qun00

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If any of those mental gymnastics held true, Solas wouldn't speak of the consequences with such grief.

He isn't gonna wipe out the modern races metaphorically.

#28
Inkvisiittori

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Yes, the modern elves (and everyone else) will die. I think that's good because otherwise the elven Inquisitor would have no reason to want stop Solas. There was a theory somewhere that mages may actually survive this 'destruction of the modern world' that Solas is planning... I don't if that's true. It said (if I remember correctly) that they would survive because of their connection to the fade. 



#29
DomeWing333

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My theory for the missing context is this: Tearing down the Veil will be catastrophic, but not instantaneously. It's more the side-effects, like spirits/demons running loose and settling old scores, that will do most of the killing and destruction. Abominations and such. Or "ordinary" people suddenly acquiring the powers of a mage. That's going to be a lethal situation, to be sure, but it won't happen overnight and it won't necessarily wipe everyone out.

Solas, in his usual condescending way, doesn't believe that modern degenerate people can survive in a world with no separation from the Fade. But what if he's underestimating the ability of modern peoples to adapt?

It wouldn't be the first time he underestimated somebody.

So I'm betting on arrogance/bigotry/snobbery rather than insanity.

Well, he didn't say it would certainly lead to the extinction of all the other races. He said it would cause the destruction of our world. And considering the amount of damage caused by just a small tear in the Fade and considering that there are entities in the Fade that literally embody all of our worst fears, I'd say that would be a pretty apt description of what would transpire should he succeed. I mean, you'd say that the world of the ancient elves was destroyed, even though there are still elves and even some ancient elves still remaining. I think he was referring to that level of destruction.


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#30
Lazarillo

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Solas didn't say anything about populating the Earth. It isn't a priority.

It might not be, but that doesn't mean it's not necessary.  Solas wants to recreate the days of ancient elves, but that implies that there have to be elves to create that.

However, it's also important to realize that Solas mentions that their immortality means that the ancient elves see the passage of time a little bit differently.  It could very well be another 2000 years before his ultimate goal is attained, but from his perspective (and that of his new race of immortals, presumably), that really isn't very much time.


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#31
Medhia_Nox

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If any of those mental gymnastics held true, Solas wouldn't speak of the consequences with such grief.

He isn't gonna wipe out the modern races metaphorically.

 

Where did you get that Cole can't be deceived?  

Especially by thousand year old ancient "elves" that may, or may not, have been spirits? 



#32
vbibbi

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If any of those mental gymnastics held true, Solas wouldn't speak of the consequences with such grief.
He isn't gonna wipe out the modern races metaphorically.

Two things, though. One, Solas is arrogant, stuck in the past, and is slow to see the modern world as competent. He assumes the world won't survive whatever he's planning, but until we know exactly what he's going to do, it's fair to consider that his actions will be harmful but not irreversibly destructive to all modern life. He assumes it will be. He's not infallible, and in fact every plan he's had to date has not gone according to his intentions.

Second thing, even if his plans do enact an Armageddon, it could be an end of the world as we know it rather than an end to everything. Like Ragnarok, where the old world order ends but the survivors are the foundation of the new world, or the Flood and its variations.
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#33
Lazarillo

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Where did you get that Cole can't be deceived?  

Especially by thousand year old ancient "elves" that may, or may not, have been spirits? 

Whether he can tell falsehood outright or not, we know he at least is capable of concealing information:

 

So it seems logical that he can keep Cole from knowing a truth he doesn't want to be known.



#34
Moirin

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All in all I think we are still missing a piece to the puzzle when it comes to Solas' plans. The way Solas talks it doesn't even seem like he is 100% certain bringing back his kinda will kill everyone in Thedas, it just seems like he thinks it's the most likely outcome.

 

Then one wonders why so many elves go to join Solas' army

 

This.

 

Have you seen the lives of elves in modern Thedas?

 

I doubt Solas is being up front about the whole "you are gonna die" thing. Look at how he recruited Briala by proxy, through Felassan.

 

I don't think "You all are gonna die" is a better option? If the modern elves are fighting for a change in their modern lives then "you are are gonna die, I'm gonna wipe out all you current elves for mine" probably isn't something they would wanna fight for. They can't even just hope for their kids' future to be better, because if Solas' plan is to wipe out everyone well that means the kids too.

 

I can't argue with you on him possibly not being honest about it though. But then one wonders why it seems like so many MORE elves joined him after the truth came out (in that epilogue card after Trespasser).



#35
In Exile

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If any of those mental gymnastics held true, Solas wouldn't speak of the consequences with such grief.

He isn't gonna wipe out the modern races metaphorically.


Solas never said he'd kill everyone - just that gave a general impression at the scale of death and the apocalyptic destruction that would follow. It's less of a targeted attack on a group and more akin to a nuclear holocaust - almost everyone would die, but it would not even be the bombs, but environmental destruction and social collapse, that would do it.
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#36
Mistic

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Solas never said he'd kill everyone - just that gave a general impression at the scale of death and the apocalyptic destruction that would follow. It's less of a targeted attack on a group and more akin to a nuclear holocaust - almost everyone would die, but it would not even be the bombs, but environmental destruction and social collapse, that would do it.

 

I got the same impression. Most of his words are about destroying the current world, not killing everyone. "I will save the elven people, even if it means this world must die" or "As this world burned in the raw chaos, I would have restored the world of my time... The world of the elves". Incredible levels of death and destruction, like the nuclear holocaust you mention, but not a guaranteed extinction for every single person.

 

That would explain why so many elves join him. He can't promise them that all of them will live. Probably, most of them won't. But those who survive (and he probably can protect more, since the plan is his), will enjoy a world of wonders in which elves reign superior.

 

Fallout players will probably be familiar with similar concepts.


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#37
In Exile

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I got the same impression. Most of his words are about destroying the current world, not killing everyone. "I will save the elven people, even if it means this world must die" or "As this world burned in the raw chaos, I would have restored the world of my time... The world of the elves". Incredible levels of death and destruction, like the nuclear holocaust you mention, but not a guaranteed extinction for every single person.

 

That would explain why so many elves join him. He can't promise them that all of them will live. Probably, most of them won't. But those who survive (and he probably can protect more, since the plan is his), will enjoy a world of wonders in which elves reign superior.

 

Fallout players will probably be familiar with similar concepts.

 

The other thing is that people misunderstand Solas and his relationship to the ancient elves. He isn't trying to re-create the society he rebelled against. He wants to fix what he sees as his mistake - stealing away the true nature of the elves in sealing the Evanuris. So it's not exactly about elves living or dying, or ancient elves living or dying - it's just about it being possible for elves to be what they once were. 


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#38
Master Warder Z_

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If any of those mental gymnastics held true, Solas wouldn't speak of the consequences with such grief.

He isn't gonna wipe out the modern races metaphorically.

 

Really, this just reinforces the whole me viewing the elves as humanities enemy thing.

 

Relevant.

 

d719027001764e226f4e23a034a79ef596c5be9b


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#39
Qun00

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Where did you get that Cole can't be deceived?

Especially by thousand year old ancient "elves" that may, or may not, have been spirits?


Intelligence is irrelevant against someone who can read your mind. For instance, Cole knows about Solas' past as well as his identity.

#40
In Exile

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Intelligence is irrelevant against someone who can read your mind. For instance, Cole knows about Solas' past as well as his identity.


For a time, until Solas simply wiped his mind of it. Cole can't use his power against Solas in the same way.

#41
Steelcan

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Really, this just reinforces the whole me viewing the elves as humanities enemy thing.

 

Relevant.

 

d719027001764e226f4e23a034a79ef596c5be9b

how big can we make the pile?

 

Only one way to find out!


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#42
stop_him

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Isn't it that Solas sees all modern life forms as mute, deaf and dumb? Creatures that essentially need to be put out of their misery, Old Yeller style?

 

Of course, having played through the game multiple times with the different races, I think even Bioware occasionally screwed up Solas's agenda since he at multiple times refers to both Inq and Sera being "of the People"--and I really do believe it to be lazy writing rather than Solas being particularly clever.



#43
In Exile

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Isn't it that Solas sees all modern life forms as mute, deaf and dumb? Creatures that essentially need to be put out of their misery, Old Yeller style?

 

Of course, having played through the game multiple times with the different races, I think even Bioware occasionally screwed up Solas's agenda since he at multiple times refers to both Inq and Sera being "of the People"--and I really do believe it to be lazy writing rather than Solas being particularly clever.

 

Solas is incredibly conflicted. He's struggling with the idea of the elves - as leftovers, or not. A lot of times when he talks to Sera, he's trying to see if there's anything left of what he knew the elves to be in her - see for example her banter about the Breach with him. 

 

Remember, being an "Elf" to Solas is about not culture, it's about nature. He said he saw the modern peoples as tranquil - as essentially missing a part of what made them alive. That's not quite the same as being senseless or dumb - it's more about an absence. 


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#44
Vit246

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Really, this just reinforces the whole me viewing the elves as humanities enemy thing.

 

Relevant.

 

d719027001764e226f4e23a034a79ef596c5be9b

 

<_< Well if you're gonna be that way, might as well destroy the world and take you with us. Humans.....


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#45
Medhia_Nox

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Intelligence is irrelevant against someone who can read your mind. For instance, Cole knows about Solas' past as well as his identity.

So you don't have anything to show - you just believe it's the case.  Gotcha.  

 

You didn't watch the little video posted by Lazarillo of Solas taking memories out of Cole's mind then I wager?



#46
Milan92

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I can't help but laugh at the whole thing. Elves really get screwed over no matter what.


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#47
Master Warder Z_

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<_< Well if you're gonna be that way, might as well destroy the world and take you with us. Humans.....

 

As one Zeon leader once said: "This pathetic world will be your graveyard!"

 

.-. That was said as a colony was dropped on Earth striking Dublin in a...decidedly smaller explosion then one would expect but there wasn't fuel in the thrusters and thus its speed and momentum weren't as great as British, that said it still smushed up Dublin pretty good.

 

 

What relevancy does any of this hold?

 

Well Haman Karn launched a would be world ending event into motion for the express purpose of neutralization of the habitability of the entire planet. To a degree anyway, so I know about would world ending events, course Haman's actually succeeded as in that colony regardless of the actions of the AEUG or Federation fell, it struck Earth, something I doubt Bioware would give Solas.

 

o.o So Haman at least succeeded in one of her colonies, ya know to mess up Earth a bit more then already was.



#48
Brass_Buckles

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I don't think "destruction of all non-ancient elves" is Solas's goal, but it's likely that many people will die as a consequence of his actions.

 

Let's look at the evidence we have seen and draw a conclusion from that:

 

  • When Solas brought up the Veil, we see that humans rose to power, and elves became mortal.
  • Because elven cities were created at least partly from the stuff of the Fade, they mostly crumbled to ruin.
  • The world of the eluvian network began to fall to pieces because it relied upon the Fade.
  • Elves who were in the eluvian network at the time were trapped or perished.
  • Elves who were in uthenera were unable to awaken whereas this had been possible before (and we seemingly encounter such sleepers in The Descent... they are in coffins), with some exceptions (Abelas and the Sentinels were called to wake to defend the Temple of Mythal--it's likely there are other similar groups of elves in remote areas).
  • The elves "lost everything, even themselves."  We don't know what this means for certain, but it's probably a big factor in whatever it is Solas thinks is wrong with the world and why he thinks it's necessary to fix it.
  • Hundreds, maybe thousands, of species went extinct due to the absence of the Fade.  There's a codex entry about an elf dying with the last of a gigantic, magical flower species.  It could be one reason why griffins went extinct--we are told the ultimate reason for it in Last Flight, but they were already rare enough, and had enough difficulty breeding, that only the Wardens had access at that point.  Pre-Veil they may have been fairly common, or at least didn't have the same difficulty reproducing.  The creatures that went extinct didn't die because they were never part of the real world, but because, whether or not they were created by the elves, they relied on the Fade to exist.
  • We know that the world in the eluvian network "remembers" how it used to be, so you can restore certain parts of it.
  • It's probable that certain cities were destroyed so entirely, due to their reliance on the Fade, that there is no trace of them at all.  Arlathan might be one of these.
  • In the "real world" in game in DAI, we see gigantic melted looking rocks.  These might be the remains of floating cities/crystalline cities and towers of ancient elven origin.  It makes some degree of sense that this would be so, because there are also surviving underground temples/tombs.  The more rooted in the mundane world, the easier it is for it to survive...
  • The Titans are sleeping and seem unable to wake.  It's unclear whether this is good, bad, or neutral...
  • Dragons no longer rule the skies.  We don't know for sure what this means, but I suspect pre-Veil dragons were a bit... more.  They're beasts in modern Thedas, but maybe they were something else pre-Veil.

All of this destruction happened because Solas changed the nature of the world, or at least the perception everyone and everything had of the world.  But something important to note is that not everything died.  Even the elves, who were heavily reliant on the Fade, did not die.  They quickened, but they adapted.  They created their own cultures.  But because the elves were greatly weakened, humans were able to take over and overthrow the elves who once ruled over them.  (This may, if you want to get into overanalysis mode, have something to do with why humans attributed the creation of the Veil to their Maker.  If their god did this, then they can then claim that they are the Maker's chosen race.  More reason for keeping the other, "less deserving" races out of their religion.  It's ugly, but this kind of thing happens in real life too.)   Yes, the destruction was massive, and it caused a mass extinction.  Pretty much everyone's civilization was likely destroyed, even the humans'--assuming they had one.  The dwarves' society likely changed, too, without their Titans.

 

So my answer to the question is:  Yes, it'll kill modern elves.  No, it won't kill all of them.

 

What we can expect, if Solas succeeds, is that the Fade will "remember" how some things were, while it doesn't others.  Ancient elves who were unable to wake from their slumber will rise.  There may be more of them than there are modern elves; we don't know.  Those melted towers may rise back into the sky.  Buried cities will break free from the ground.  So:  Earthquakes, people being trapped, people falling.  Cities sinking, rising.  Statues that were crumbled reassembling themselves.  Everyone is suddenly connected to the Fade; if it's like the eluvian network, everyone but the elves will be sickened by it, and possibly weakened.  But that may only be a feature of the eluvian network, meant to keep anyone but elves from entering.  Remember that humans did exist pre-Veil, and there are a few hints that qunari also existed pre-Veil, in some form or other.  Some of those horned statues predate the Tevinter Imperium, so the conclusion to be drawn is that either the elves created the qunari, or the qunari already existed and were possibly enslaved by elves.

 

The qunari are terrified of what may happen with their Saarebas if Solas succeeds.  Apparently they think the Saarebas will become even more powerful, or... something.  I'm not sure.  But they clearly believe it's going to be really bad.  However, take that with a grain of salt, because we know the qunari are terrified of magic and spirits in general, hence why they treat the Saarebas as they do.  It's not necessary to treat their mages that way, but they believe it is.  Remember, we can play as a qunari mage.  Although Saarebas might be particularly powerful for whatever reason, they certainly could be the same as any other mage.

 

What we cannot expect, and what I'm sure Solas does not expect, is that everything will be exactly as it was.  Species that went extinct will stay extinct, unless like the griffins something was done to preserve some fragment of them.  Cities that were heavily damaged might "snap" back into place, but they will remain damaged.  If the Black City were ever golden, then it nevertheless will not be restored to its former glory (I suspect it's blighted...).  I also don't think the modern elves are going to immediately regain immortality.  Their children might, or their grandchildren, but that's presuming that they survive to have children (meaning if the chaos that ensues or the ancient elves don't kill them).

 

A lot of people seem to think Solas is trying to do this out of guilt, or nostalgia.  Nostalgia has nothing to do with it.  Guilt probably does, but if it's guilt then I think it's guilt over a broken world.  Remember when I pointed out that quote above about elves "losing themselves?"  We don't know what that means, but it's the key to why Solas feels he MUST go through with his plan, even if he has come to see the modern people as, well, people.  I don't even think he really wants to restore the world exactly as it was, he just wants to fix what he broke.  And then he wants to make things better (i.e. no evanuris, no slavery...).

 

People say Solas intends genocide, but that's not actually what Solas is up to, at least from what I understand.  He doesn't want to kill everyone.  He thinks that it's inevitable that most if not all will die--if not from the fallout from his plan, then because the ancient elves are likely to go on a killing spree.  But this does not mean he's setting out to specifically kill them, which I think a lot of people misunderstand.  Note that Abelas spoke to you as if you were a lesser being... well, most if not all of the ancient elves are likely to see non-elves and modern elves the same way.  Although Solas doesn't want a world with slavery and does want people to see each other as, well, people, he ultimately won't be able to be judge, jury, and executioner for everyone who disagrees with him.  He's super powerful, yes, even for an ancient elf.  But he's not powerful enough to protect everyone ever.

 

Of course, all that said, even if there are some (or many) survivors among modern elves or, well, everyone else?  Even though I don't think Solas is out to commit genocide, going through with his plan while knowing the fallout of it will be terrible is atrocious.  But he hasn't done it yet, and there may be ways to achieve his goal (fixing what's broken, making everyone whole again) that would be less catastrophic.

 

As for why modern elves seem to want to follow him... we can't be sure that all of them are modern elves.  But, among the oppressed (because let's face it, even the Dalish are oppressed in Thedas--always hunted, always having to move because the humans don't want them around, struggling just to get enough food and supplies to survive while they slowly die out, picked off person by person and clan by clan), even knowing they might die, they might be willing to do so because they will accomplish something they feel is worthwhile with their deaths.  And they may also not die.  Solas doesn't like to lie--he'll happily omit truths, but he rarely tells a direct lie.  It's actually easier for him that way, because he doesn't have to remember all of the lies he's told if he only omitted truths (i.e. he grew up in that village thousands of years ago...).  So he might have conveniently failed to tell the elves that his plan might lead to their destruction.  Or, he told them and they are flocking to him anyway because even though there's a high chance of their demise, there's still some chance they will survive to see a better world.

 

And edited to add:

 

I also believe Solas's plan will lead to the deaths of many ancient elves.  Again, his goal is not genocide; thinking so is a misunderstanding of what he's trying to do.  Killing everyone other than ancient elves is not his goal, but it's something he sees as an inevitable side effect.  He wants to restore the world, and fix whatever it is that he sees as broken.  This may be good for the dwarves because it will probably mean the Titans will wake.  It will be bad for nearly everyone else (ancient elves included, because of the Titans...), at least in the short term.  But Solas seems to think that modern people are somehow not "whole."  Hence why he compared them to Tranquil.  And like the Tranquil, "fixing" them might destroy them (remember the healed Tranquil who was simply unable to control his emotions... giving access to magic/spirits to people who never had it, would have similar results).  In my opinion, the mages are the most likely to be okay if Solas succeeds, because a large part of what is "wrong" appears to be the lack of magic, and perhaps a lack of connection to some spirit-self that elves once had, but no one has anymore.  But that does not mean that all mages will be fine, or that mages won't suffer any problems at all.  They are just the ones who have the best chance, because they are already on some level familiar with the Fade.


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#49
Master Warder Z_

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I don't think "destruction of all non-ancient elves" is Solas's goal, but it's likely that many people will die as a consequence of his actions.

 

Let's look at the evidence we have seen and draw a conclusion from that:

 

Or we can simply take the bald nutjob at his word and assume that he is literally going to end the world.

 

K thanks.


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#50
robertmarilyn

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Solas can't stand the beings that live now...he considers them to be like Tranquils so I do think he wants anyone dead that will despoil what he thinks would be ideal. He wants to erase the beings that exist now because he considers them to be so unworthy of existence, as if their lives have no meaning because he feels they are inadequate. I do not think things will go as Solas plans since all his plans seem to end in failure. Someone really does need to stop Solas from doing more harm to the world.