168 réponses à ce sujet

[Steelcan]

There is no evidence to suggest that Mages were to blame for the Blight. We now know that the Blight existed in Thedas prior to the First Blight and that it existed independently of the Magisters. Also Humans are the only ones who subscribe to that particular belief. Elves, Qunari and Dwarves(most adversely affected by the Blights) outright dismiss the notion.

we know the Taint existed previously, but the Blights commanded by Archdemons were the result of Corypehus and his cohorts breaching the Golden City.  He implies that they willingly became blighted in exchange for power.  There's no record of blights existing before that time frame and no reason to doubt that line of events given how Corypheus himself more or less confirms the Chantry's version of events.

[eyezonlyii]

Why not station a few Templars at every Chantry (even the smaller communities) to instruct magic use there, closer to home? I think that's the best of both worlds. You have Chantry/Templar oversight and proctection for/from mages, while also offering the mages a chance to grow up in a "normal" environment. After a certain age, then send the mages to a Circle to further their studies and then provide job training for future endeavors. Give the mages a way to be productive members of society. 

[SonnyKohler]

The Blight

 

that is all

What?  I would have thought that that was more of a Grey Warden issues, but, let's not drag them in to this whole thing...

[Steelcan]

What?  I would have thought that that was more of a Grey Warden issues, but, let's not drag them in to this whole thing...

mages from Tevinter started the Blights, probably not the taint, but they unleashed it on the world

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't think the OP is suggesting that the circles become brothals. But keeping grown men and women together, and expecting them all to be celibate -which is how the current system is- is unnatural. Celibacy is a lifestyle choice, and should not be forced upon someone.

To my knowledge circles don't force celibacy excluding mages-templars relationships for a good reasons.

 

 

So now we've ramped up the security measures to the point where they can't even roam? lol

 

No, they shouldn't be brothels, but geez.

 

All that the Circles have managed to accomplished is attract strange "jailor" behavior. You're always going to get the wrong type of people when their sole purpose in life is jailing. No one like this even cares what Andraste talked about. They just get off on the idea of being in power.

They can roam as long it is in the circle.  

 

Bayonet suggestions resolved around pretty much turning circles into some kind of "entertainment house" that would compromise safety of rest of Thedas over comfort of the few even more, what isn't point of the circles.

 

Good they did that , security of rest of world should have priority here.

[Big I]

Putting aside the abusive templars, I never really had a problem with the Circle taking in mages as children and forcing them to stay til they learnt to control their magic (apart from the Harrowing and Tranquility, which are barbaric). It's all the restrictions on adult mages that made no sense.

 

Locking mages in the Circle is a huge wasted opportunity. There are no credible doctors in Thedas; the one in Skyhold is still using leeches, trepanning and bloodletting. Mages on the other hand can literally fix you like magic. Even if magic healing has limitations (limitations we've never seen outlined), it's still better than the alternative. There should a mage healer and/or alchemist in every town and city, not locked up in a tower where only rich nobles can get to them.

 

I find it interesting that many of the worst parts of the Circle weren't there when it was originally formed. The Rite of Annulment was created in 2:85, about 150 years after the founding of the Circle. According to Ameridan Tranquility was never intended for wide spread use. The Harrowing was a Tevinter tradition the south adopted. Hell, if rumour is true Drakon's original choice for the first Grand Enchanter was Ameridan's lover, a Dalish Dreamer.

 

Basically the Circle was a good idea that subsequent generations ruined.

[Xerrai]

Why not station a few Templars at every Chantry (even the smaller communities) to instruct magic use there, closer to home? I think that's the best of both worlds. You have Chantry/Templar oversight and proctection for/from mages, while also offering the mages a chance to grow up in a "normal" environment. After a certain age, then send the mages to a Circle to further their studies and then provide job training for future endeavors. Give the mages a way to be productive members of society. 

As nice as that whole idea is, you have to consider that young mages typically are widely not in control of their powers. Some can set themselves and their communities on fire, or electrocute loved ones. I'd hate to say it, but some mage children do need to be taken away from their homes and taken to the circle.

 

In addition, the teaching of mages in their hometown would include the release of proper full fledged mages to be allowed to roam outside. While it may be fine in some areas, mageaphobia is still a very real thing in certain areas. In a particularly hostile situation, even Templars cannot spare the mage(s) from violence. Or even worse, the mage may have to defend themselves, and that will never be forgiven by anyone at large.

[SonnyKohler]

mages from Tevinter started the Blights, probably not the taint, but they unleashed it on the world

Perhaps it was in another thread, but I was reading that, while it is true, according to the Chantry Orthodoxy, that Tevinter Magisters were the catalyst for the beginning of the blights, that the potential and possibility of corruption have existed since the very beginning of the Old Gods/Elven Gods/Mythal situation lo those many millenia ago.

 

If the situation is a direct result of the events that unfold in the Descent DLC (admittedly, I can only go by what I've read as I have not, as yet completed it), then, who is to say that the Magisters did not simply act as a trigger rather than be the direct cause themselves?

[Xerrai]

To my knowledge circles don't force celibacy excluding mages-templars relationships for a good reasons.

 

 

They can roam as long it is in the circle.

 

Bayonet suggestions resolved around pretty much turning circles into some kind of "entertainment house" that would compromise safety of rest of Thedas over comfort of the few even more, what isn't point of the circles.

 

Good they did that , security of rest of world should have priority here.

 

You realize all of the reforms suggested are inside the Circle, yes? With things like visitations and performers likely going to be at designated times and with Templar security?

[TheKomandorShepard]

Putting aside the abusive templars, I never really had a problem with the Circle taking in mages as children and forcing them to stay til they learnt to control their magic (apart from the Harrowing and Tranquility, which are barbaric). It's all the restrictions on adult mages that made no sense.

 

Locking mages in the Circle is a huge wasted opportunity. There are no credible doctors in Thedas; the one in Skyhold is still using leeches, trepanning and bloodletting. Mages on the other hand can literally fix you like magic. Even if magic healing has limitations (limitations we've never seen outlined), it's still better than the alternative. There should a mage healer and/or alchemist in every town and city, not locked up in a tower where only rich nobles can get to them.

 

I find it interesting that many of the worst parts of the Circle weren't there when it was originally formed. The Rite of Annulment was created in 2:85, about 150 years after the founding of the Circle. According to Ameridan Tranquility was never intended for wide spread use. The Harrowing was a Tevinter tradition the south adopted. Hell, if rumour is true Drakon's original choice for the first Grand Enchanter was Ameridan's lover, a Dalish Dreamer.

 

Basically the Circle was a good idea that subsequent generations ruined.

 

Yes, let mages practice forbidden magic, toy with demons or just them turning into abomnations and let them unleash havock onto society.

 

Im sure , it won't backfire.

 

 

 

You realize all of the reforms suggested are inside the Circle, yes? With things like visitations and performers likely going to be at designated times and with Templar security?

Yes , but his idea resolves areound involving people from outside circles, what i have pointed in my first post would lead to nasty consequences.

[Kakistos_]

this is blatantly untrue, family can visit as we've seen, most families simply lack the means to do so, nor are all mages ripped kicking and screaming from loving homes, Wynne comes immediately to mind

It is not. Noble families can visit their children but in the case of commoners, like Anders, their children are taken without notice and their families are threatened if they try to see them. And even in some Noble cases, such as with one of the escaped Mages in Kirkwall, his family hadn't seen him since he was taken when he was a child.

[SonnyKohler]

To my knowledge circles don't force celibacy excluding mages-templars relationships for a good reasons.

 

 

They can roam as long it is in the circle.

 

Bayonet suggestions resolved around pretty much turning circles into some kind of "entertainment house" that would compromise safety of rest of Thedas over comfort of the few even more, what isn't point of the circles.

 

Good they did that , security of rest of world should have priority here.

And yet the rest of Thedas is NOT secure.  Certainly mages can present a threat, given the powers that they possess, but, there have been wars between the races, bigotry, despotism and genocide that have absolutely nothing to do with the mages at all.

 

I still question why the "Chantry" is the ultimate authority in this whole thing.  It is just another religion.  Admittedly the events leading up to it's founding were of a noble nature (although they obviously solved absolutely nothing since the Imperium apparently just continues on as it always has with minor changes), that does not give the "Religion" the ultimate authority of what is "best" for the entire populace. 

 

I agree that the Templars can serve an important function as can the Seekers and the elders of the mages, particularly in the guidance of new and novices of all the factions, but the Chantry needs to be taken out of the equation.  They ARE NOT the ultimate authority.  Each culture has it's own way of handling the situation and, while I may not always agree with the methodology, the Dalish, the Qun and any number of other independent City States have found other ways of dealing with this situation which does not involve kowtowing to a particular religious order (I am not counting the Qun as a religion, more of a philosophy that organizes their particular society).

 

Perhaps my own biases towards the abuses that always accompany organized religion are showing, but...

[Kakistos_]

we know the Taint existed previously, but the Blights commanded by Archdemons were the result of Corypehus and his cohorts breaching the Golden City.  He implies that they willingly became blighted in exchange for power.  There's no record of blights existing before that time frame and no reason to doubt that line of events given how Corypheus himself more or less confirms the Chantry's version of events.

 

We do not know if that is ture. We know that the Magisters entered the already black Golden City but have no details on what came after. [EDIT: We only have Corypheus' word that the Magisters entered the already black Golden City.] The fact that the Dwarves who have dealt with Darkspawn more than anyone else do not believe this version of events is more than enough doubt for me.

[Fiskrens]

Im sure , it won't backfire.

As if extreme oppression didn't?

[SonnyKohler]

As nice as that whole idea is, you have to consider that young mages typically are widely not in control of their powers. Some can set themselves and their communities on fire, or electrocute loved ones. I'd hate to say it, but some mage children do need to be taken away from their homes and taken to the circle.

 

In addition, the teaching of mages in their hometown would include the release of proper full fledged mages to be allowed to roam outside. While it may be fine in some areas, mageaphobia is still a very real thing in certain areas. In a particularly hostile situation, even Templars cannot spare the mage(s) from violence. Or even worse, the mage may have to defend themselves, and that will never be forgiven by anyone at large.

And who has caused that attitude towards mages, particularly in the more recent ages?  Certainly there has always been a fear of the "different", but the "Chantry" has done nothing but exacerbate the situation through their "preaching" and spreading misinformation for ages.

 

The Chantry is at fault here in all honesty.  They have controlled (or attempted to control) every facet of society and used fear as a tactic since their creation, just as any modern religion has done throughout history.

[SonnyKohler]

We do not know if that is ture. We know that the Magisters entered the already black Golden City but have no details on what came after. The fact that the Dwarves who have dealt with Darkspawn more than anyone else do not believe this version of events is more than enough doubt for me.

Do we actually "know" that the Magisters entered the Golden City?  Is it actually a fact or is it simply more supposition as spoon fed to everyone by the "Chantry"?

[Kakistos_]

Well except it didn't.  Its hard to measure how much of a success it is since its largely preventative in design, but there haven't been any repeats of starting the Blights and whatnot.

 

Other societies with "free mages" still have methods to keep them in check.  the Dalish move around/exile spares, the Avvar slit the throats of the weak, and I'm sure the Rivaini have something as well we just don't know about it yet.

 I think the whole rebellion and outright war thing is a good indication that it did indeed massively fail.

[Kakistos_]

Do we actually "know" that the Magisters entered the Golden City?  Is it actually a fact or is it simply more supposition as spoon fed to everyone by the "Chantry"?

 

True. We only have Corypheus' word on that point.

[TheKomandorShepard]

And yet the rest of Thedas is NOT secure.  Certainly mages can present a threat, given the powers that they possess, but, there have been wars between the races, bigotry, despotism and genocide that have absolutely nothing to do with the mages at all.

 

I still question why the "Chantry" is the ultimate authority in this whole thing.  It is just another religion.  Admittedly the events leading up to it's founding were of a noble nature (although they obviously solved absolutely nothing since the Imperium apparently just continues on as it always has with minor changes), that does not give the "Religion" the ultimate authority of what is "best" for the entire populace. 

 

I agree that the Templars can serve an important function as can the Seekers and the elders of the mages, particularly in the guidance of new and novices of all the factions, but the Chantry needs to be taken out of the equation.  They ARE NOT the ultimate authority.  Each culture has it's own way of handling the situation and, while I may not always agree with the methodology, the Dalish, the Qun and any number of other independent City States have found other ways of dealing with this situation which does not involve kowtowing to a particular religious order (I am not counting the Qun as a religion, more of a philosophy that organizes their particular society).

 

Perhaps my own biases towards the abuses that always accompany organized religion are showing, but...

 

Ok, let me ask you how many world-threats we had caused by non-mages? Well answer is simple, none.

 

No, but common sense and self-preservation does i don't see why one should risk future of entire mankind in order to provide comfort to a few , pretty much every goverments base on that rule.

 

 

As if extreme oppression didn't?

If being locked in 5 star hotels for free is extreme oppression i want to be subjected to this oppression. Yes that "oppresion" did backfire they should have put more emphasis on security and less on mages comfort.

[eyezonlyii]

As nice as that whole idea is, you have to consider that young mages typically are widely not in control of their powers. Some can set themselves and their communities on fire, or electrocute loved ones. I'd hate to say it, but some mage children do need to be taken away from their homes and taken to the circle.

 

In addition, the teaching of mages in their hometown would include the release of proper full fledged mages to be allowed to roam outside. While it may be fine in some areas, mageaphobia is still a very real thing in certain areas. In a particularly hostile situation, even Templars cannot spare the mage(s) from violence. Or even worse, the mage may have to defend themselves, and that will never be forgiven by anyone at large.

That's why I said let the Templars teach them while they're younger and in their village. Uprooting and moving anyone away from home is a stressful experience, which some admittedly handle better than others, doing the same to children is even more antagonizing. Also keeping them in the town has the added benefit of putting a face to a problem. Saying "Mages are evil!" is easier when you don't have to look at little Johnny walking to the Chantry everyday with Sir Stoneface for his daily magic lessons. 

[Abyss108]

So if the Blight hadn't been caused by a bunch of mages, but rather a bunch of warriors, it would be OK to lock up every person who had the strength to be a warrior for their entire life no matter how unrelated they are to those original few? 

[Voidinist]

I'm aware it's not ideal. No one here is locking up and tranquilizing mages for funsies like cartoon villains. But until I'm presented with a better system other than "lol wing it freedom 4 every1", the Circle will always stand stronger to the College in my canon.

 

How am I supposed to ignore that mages present an entirely new and grossly unfair power imbalance to mundanes? Am I supposed to ignore canon in which young mages are found by setting people on fire accidentally and intentionally, reducing people to ashes, tossing children across a field (Bethany WoT Vol. 2), and killing dozens of people because they're weak &/or untrained? Does this mage freedom thing only work by trusting in the good nature of people that they'd never be selfish and harmful? The Circle stood for 900 years keeping southern society relatively magic-free, while several free mage cultures have proven to be catastrophically destructive.

 

I'm all for granting more freedom to the Circle, specifically Harrowed mages and certain fraternities (the Libertarian fraternity should be shunned tbh).

Ideally, family visits and mage parents keeping their children should be allowed. I don't like this brothel idea, though. We've already been told the Circle is pretty sexually liberal. Designated **** buddies sounds ridiculous.

[Fiskrens]

If being locked in 5 star hotels for free is extreme oppression i want to be subjected to this oppression. Yes that "oppresion" did backfire they should have put more emphasis on security and less on mages comfort.

A 5 star prison is still a prison - and I don't agree that the more oppressive circles can ever be seen as "5 star", anyway. And I think history has shown us the success rate of increased "security" (your choice of word, not mine) when faced with resistance.

[Ieldra]

I personally like the buddy cop system. Partner up 1 apprentice with a Templar recruit. They grow together, learn together, hell even have them do trust falls.

When it comes time for the Harrowing the Mage enters the fade and the recruit is the one holding the sword ready to strike if the Mage fails. If the Mage is designated for tranquility, the recruit must do it.

This would give a face to the Templar when thinking about the plight of the Mages and give the Mage someone to go to to express concerns and feel comfortable doing so.

I've thought about this as well. As a mage, I'd actually want to have someone I trust who can counter my magic if I'm in trouble from it, or even kill me if I get possessed. I just wouldn't want it to be a religious fanatic who thinks magic is evil and who doesn't know anything of me. Also, if I know a friend will have to kill me if I get possessed or get killed if I turn abomination, I'll be more careful. 

 

It may not work for everyone - some of my mages are true loners - but I'm sure there would've been less discontent overall with a system like this. The idea that templars must be distant from the mages because they need to strike swiftly if necessary means that only mages pay the price of the system. Of course the mages will turn against it eventually.

[SonnyKohler]

Ok, let me ask you how many world-threats we had caused by non-mages? Well answer is simple, none.

 

No, but common sense and self-preservation does i don't see why one should risk future of entire mankind in order to provide comfort to a few , pretty much every goverments base on that rule.

 

 

If being locked in 5 star hotels for free is extreme oppression i want to be subjected to this oppression. Yes that "oppresion" did backfire they should have put more emphasis on security and less on mages comfort.

Caused by Non-Mages?  What about the invasions by the Qun?  What about the numerous wars.  What about the Exhaulted Marches?  The genocide and enslavement of the elves and on and on and on.  We also know that the Breach was not caused by mages at all.  We also DO NOT know that the blights were caused by mages at all.  That is what the Chantry has told us, not what the actual facts are.

 

Are any of the "facts" that are attributed to making the "Mages" the scapegoats for everything that goes on that is "world shaking" actually verifiable or are they all supposition.

 

Examples:  In Inquisition - was the civil war and the rising of undead directly caused by mages?  No.; Was the Breach caused by mages? - No - it was caused by a darkspawn and his/it's thralls; Was the Mage/Templar war caused by mages?  No - it was caused by mistreatment of mages by the Templars over an extended period of time; and there are so many other examples.

 

Using the mages as scape-goats for everything is not only a fallacy, but is patently unfair.