168 réponses à ce sujet

[Donquijote and 59 others]

If a mage fail the harrowing and a demon take over,how can templars identify that the mage is an abomination?

[SonnyKohler]

So if the Blight hadn't been caused by a bunch of mages, but rather a bunch of warriors, it would be OK to lock up every person who had the strength to be a warrior for their entire life no matter how unrelated they are to those original few? 

Again:  Where is the proof that the Blight was caused by a bunch of mages since we already know that the corruption pre-existed anything that the magisters did, if it was indeed the magisters that triggered the beginning of the blights.

 

Again - you are relying on the dogma of the Chantry and their suppositions to support a "theory".

[eyezonlyii]

If a mage fail the harrowing and a demon take over,how can templars identify that the mage is an abomination?

Most likely because a demon would betray its existence by enjoying and unleashing its newfound power and connection to this plane.

[Donquijote and 59 others]

Most likely because a demon would betray its existence by enjoying and unleashing its newfound power and connection to this plane.

Some demons are subtle and are difficult to catch,it is what happened in  DAI quest that involved the templars

[Abyss108]

Again:  Where is the proof that the Blight was caused by a bunch of mages since we already know that the corruption pre-existed anything that the magisters did, if it was indeed the magisters that triggered the beginning of the blights.

 

Again - you are relying on the dogma of the Chantry and their suppositions to support a "theory".

 

Um, I think we're on the same side. 

 

Whether it really happened that way, or whether its Chantry dogma is completely irrelevant to me. Either way it was someone completely unrelated to the people who are being locked away.

[TheKomandorShepard]

A 5 star prison is still a prison - and I don't agree that the more oppressive circles can ever be seen as "5 star", anyway. And I think history has shown us the success rate of increased "security" (your choice of word, not mine) when faced with resistance.

So? Well too bad for you, criminals, crazy people and sick under quarantine don't have to agree to being imprisoned but they are because they are threat. Weren't we, pretty much Qunari have best security when it comes to mages in entire Thedas?While circles never were strict enough to put it properly into test.

 

 

Caused by Non-Mages?  What about the invasions by the Qun?  What about the numerous wars.  What about the Exhaulted Marches?  The genocide and enslavement of the elves and on and on and on.  We also know that the Breach was not caused by mages at all.  We also DO NOT know that the blights were caused by mages at all.  That is what the Chantry has told us, not what the actual facts are.

 

Are any of the "facts" that are attributed to making the "Mages" the scapegoats for everything that goes on that is "world shaking" actually verifiable or are they all supposition.

 

Examples:  In Inquisition - was the civil war and the rising of undead directly caused by mages?  No.; Was the Breach caused by mages? - No - it was caused by a darkspawn and his/it's thralls; Was the Mage/Templar war caused by mages?  No - it was caused by mistreatment of mages by the Templars over an extended period of time; and there are so many other examples.

 

Using the mages as scape-goats for everything is not only a fallacy, but is patently unfair.

 

Except none of those are world threats that involve even racial extinction, at worst threat on cultural and national levels.Plus, once again we know magisters brought up blights, not only chantry version claims that but we had opportunity to see on our own eyes proof of that and we were able hear about it from magister to went to the black city. Even Anders admited that chantry has a point.

 

"In Inquisition - was the civil war and the rising of undead directly caused by mages?  No" Civil war no , rising undead yes it was actions of the mage that caused this.

 

"Was the Breach caused by mages? - No" You mean yes , said darkspawn was a mage , even before he was human mage , same mage that brought blights into Thedas.

 

"Was the Mage/Templar war caused by mages?  No" Once again yes it was , it was their decision to to fight templars they could have just surrender, it was their decision to attempt to vote off from the circles and it was their decision to oppose templars in attempt arrest criminal.

 

 

 

And no i don't use mages as scape-goats just simple point fact that if not them being mages this wouldn't not happen, nor i accuse them of being responsible of every conflict/disaster in the setting , just most of them including most threatening ones.  

[Fiskrens]

So? Well too bad for you, criminals, crazy people and sick under quarantine don't have to agree to being imprisoned but they are because they are threat.

That's the thing, you see mages as "criminals, crazy people and sick". I don't.

Except none of those are world threats that involve even racial extinction, at worst threat on cultural and national levels

Tell that to the dalish...

[SonnyKohler]

So? Well too bad for you, criminals, crazy people and sick under quarantine don't have to agree to being imprisoned but they are because they are threat. Weren't we pretty much Qunari have best security when it comes to mages in entire Thedas,while circles never were strict enough to put it properly into test.

 

 

 

Except none of those are world threats that involve even racial extinction, at worst threat on cultural and national levels.Plus, once again we know magisters brought up blights, not only chantry version claims that but we had opportunity to see on our own eyes proof of that and we were able hear about it from magister to went to the black city. Even Anders admited that chantry has a point.

 

"In Inquisition - was the civil war and the rising of undead directly caused by mages?  No" Civil war no , rising undead yes it was actions of the mage that caused this.

 

"Was the Breach caused by mages? - No" You mean yes , said darkspawn was a mage , even before he was human mage , same mage that brought blights into Thedas.

 

"Was the Mage/Templar war caused by mages?  No" Once again yes it was , it was their decision to to fight templars they could have just surrender, it was their decision to attempt to vote off from the circles and it was their decision to oppose templars in attempt arrest criminal.

 

 

 

And no i don't use mages as scape-goat just simple point fact nor i accuse them of being responsible of every conflict/disaster in the setting , just most of them including most threatening ones.  

1) Proof?  I mean other than Chantry accounts.  Where are the records from Tevinter?  Again.  Proof

2) Proof?  Where is it shown that the rising of the undead is caused by a mage?  It has something to do with the Freemen, yes, but I do not see that there was a mage involved.  If you are referring to Cory, he is no longer a mage.  He is a darkspawn.  He may even be more than that.  Where and who is the mage or mages that are raising the dead.  Are they mortilitasi?  As far as I know, demons possessing the unprotected bodies of the deceased is not exclusively a mage thing.

3) Again - where the magisters the cause of or simply the trigger of.  We know that the corruption pre-existed any action that the magisters of old took.  Did the darkspawn also pre-exist such invasion of the Golden City?  Where is the proof?

4) So, the war is the a fault of the victims of the abuse, eh?  What were they supposed to do?  Roll over and take it?  Allow the abuse to continue?  According to your logic, yes.  The Templars were just as much to blame as the mages and even Cassandra admits that the Seekers could and should have done more but turned a blind eye.

 

Again - everything you are noting is Chantry Dogma.  I do not believe the Bible, the Torah or the Koran or any of the other "holy" books in our modern society are actual, factual tombs of knowledge and fact, why in Thedas would my character (as a Dalish) or me believe anything the Chantry says, particularly given how things were and have been twisted since the time of Andraste.  I may as well accept that the Keepers of the Temple of Ashes were the correct ones or that the Black Divine is even more right that the White.

 

I refuse to deal in absolutes.  It is the sign of a weak mind.  Besides, Anders was a nut.  A fully justified and loveable nut, but a nut none-the-less.

[MidnightWolf]

So? Well too bad for you, criminals, crazy people and sick under quarantine don't have to agree to being imprisoned but they are because they are threat.

Of all the absolutely mind boggling rubbish I've seen you write on this forum, that has got to be the best of the worst. Criminals don't get a choice in being locked because wait for it......THEY BROKE THE LAW. It is not illegal to be a Mage, and to suggest that every single one of them should be locked up because you may get the occasional bad one, is as absurd as locking up people who may one day commit a crime, but haven't yet.

[TheKomandorShepard]

1) Proof?  I mean other than Chantry accounts.  Where are the records from Tevinter?  Again.  Proof

2) Proof?  Where is it shown that the rising of the undead is caused by a mage?  It has something to do with the Freemen, yes, but I do not see that there was a mage involved.  If you are referring to Cory, he is no longer a mage.  He is a darkspawn.  He may even be more than that.  Where and who is the mage or mages that are raising the dead.  Are they mortilitasi?  As far as I know, demons possessing the unprotected bodies of the deceased is not exclusively a mage thing.

3) Again - where the magisters the cause of or simply the trigger of.  We know that the corruption pre-existed any action that the magisters of old took.  Did the darkspawn also pre-exist such invasion of the Golden City?  Where is the proof?

4) So, the war is the a fault of the victims of the abuse, eh?  What were they supposed to do?  Roll over and take it?  Allow the abuse to continue?  According to your logic, yes.  The Templars were just as much to blame as the mages and even Cassandra admits that the Seekers could and should have done more but turned a blind eye.

 

Again - everything you are noting is Chantry Dogma.  I do not believe the Bible, the Torah or the Koran or any of the other "holy" books in our modern society are actual, factual tombs of knowledge and fact, why in Thedas would my character (as a Dalish) or me believe anything the Chantry says, particularly given how things were and have been twisted since the time of Andraste.  I may as well accept that the Keepers of the Temple of Ashes were the correct ones or that the Black Divine is even more right that the White.

 

I refuse to deal in absolutes.  It is the sign of a weak mind.  Besides, Anders was a nut.  A fully justified and loveable nut, but a nut none-the-less.

 

1.This is ridiculous, proof is Legacy and DAI where Corypheus appears.

2.Here you have also according to wiki he is Venatorii. That he is a darkspawn doesn't exclude him from being a mage just as being elf doesn't exclude from being mage... he still wields magic.

3.Blights and darkspawn showed up in Thedas after magisters went to the black city , plus all seven magisters turned into Darkspawn and Corypheus speak of corruption in the fade. 

4.Mages were not abused , at least not collectively, they had best living standarts in Thedas that match those of nobility.Plus, once again they wouldn't be attacked if not fact they tried escape templars oversight and refused to hand over suspected criminal.

 

That, has very little with chantry dogma , but simply facts.

 

 

That's the thing, you see mages as "criminals, crazy people and sick". I don't.

Tell that to the dalish...

 

Well "criminals, crazy people and sick" once again are threat , and that you don't see them as that doesn't change fact that mages are huge threat.

 

Oh , dalish are race since when and pretty sure they are alive, unless you speak about elves that are still alive.

 

 

Of all the absolutely mind boggling rubbish I've seen you write on this forum, that has got to be the best of the worst. Criminals don't get a choice in being locked because wait for it......THEY BROKE THE LAW. It is not illegal to be a Mage, and to suggest that every single one of them should be locked up because you may get the occasional bad one, is as absurd as locking up people who may one day commit a crime, but haven't yet.

Sorry , did you failed read all those other groups i have mentioned and called them out on being imprisoned byecause they are threat just like mages, or you just did read to criminal part and it triggered emotional outburst?

[Almostfaceman]

Again:  Where is the proof that the Blight was caused by a bunch of mages since we already know that the corruption pre-existed anything that the magisters did, if it was indeed the magisters that triggered the beginning of the blights.

 

Again - you are relying on the dogma of the Chantry and their suppositions to support a "theory".

 

We've got three main things so far. One, Tevinters history of a group of mages assaulting the Golden City. Two, corroboration (non-Chantry) by Corypheus of this assault. Three, timing of this event with the Blight both assaulting the surface and the dwarven kingdoms (who had prospered and expanded pre-Blights). There's the proof. Doesn't mean I blame all things bad on mages... all sapient beings are flawed and capable of destruction. 

[SonnyKohler]

1.This is ridiculous, proof is Legacy and DAI where Corypheus appears.

2.Here you have also according to wiki he is Venatorii. That he is a darkspawn doesn't exclude him from being a mage just as being elf doesn't exclude from being mage... he still wields magic.

3.Blights and darkspawn showed up in Thedas after magisters went to the black city , plus all seven magisters turned into Darkspawn and Corypheus speak of corruption in the fade. 

4.Mages were not abused , at least not collectively, they had best living standarts in Thedas that match those of nobility.Plus, once again they would be attacked if not fact they tried escape templars oversight and refused to hand over suspected criminal.

 

That, has very little with chantry dogma , but simply facts.

 

 

 

Well "criminals, crazy people and sick" once again are Threat , and that you don't see them as that doesn't change fact that mages are huge threat.

 

Oh , dalish are race since when and pretty sure they are alive, unless you speak about elves that are still alive.

 

 

Sorry , did you failed read all those other groups i have mentioned and called them out on being imprisoned byecause they are threat just like mages, or you just did read to criminal part and went into emotional outburst?

Circular arguments.  Still no actual "Proof".  Taking the word of religious dogma and, admittedly insane are not proof.  BTW:  Wiki is not necessarily correct.  They even say so in their own disclaimers. 

 

Yes - the elves are a race that has also suffered from genocide and oppression.  Does the fact that there are remaining members of a greatly diminished whole mitigate the fact that genocide occurred?  I can think of a number of groups that might argue that point even in our modern society.

 

I am also greatly offended that you consider criminals, the mentally unstable and the ill to be deserving of being locked up equally.

 

People who own guns or knives or peanuts are also a potential danger to potentially vulnerable others, does that mean that they should all be locked up permanently because of that?

 

Further, why are mages any more of a threat than the Templars (Red Templars, etc.), Chantry (Religious zealots), Qunari (this is pretty obvious), Wardens (controllable and corruptible) or any other group?  All of them are well known for being threats to one group or another.  The Crows and the House of Repose are threats as well.  Should they all be locked up because they pose a potential threat?

[SonnyKohler]

We've got three main things so far. One, Tevinters history of a group of mages assaulting the Golden City. Two, corroboration (non-Chantry) by Corypheus of this assault. Three, timing of this event with the Blight both assaulting the surface and the dwarven kingdoms (who had prospered and expanded pre-Blights). There's the proof. Doesn't mean I blame all things bad on mages... all sapient beings are flawed and capable of destruction. 

You are directly contradicting your previous posts.

[TheKomandorShepard]

Circular arguments.  Still no actual "Proof".  Taking the word of religious dogma and, admittedly insane are not proof.  BTW:  Wiki is not necessarily correct.  They even say so in their own disclaimers. 

 

Yes - the elves are a race that has also suffered from genocide and oppression.  Does the fact that there are remaining members of a greatly diminished whole mitigate the fact that genocide occurred?  I can think of a number of groups that might argue that point even in our modern society.

 

I am also greatly offended that you consider criminals, the mentally unstable and the ill to be deserving of being locked up equally.

 

People who own guns or knives or peanuts are also a potential danger to potentially vulnerable others, does that mean that they should all be locked up permanently because of that?

 

Further, why are mages any more of a threat than the Templars (Red Templars, etc.), Chantry (Religious zealots), Qunari (this is pretty obvious), Wardens (controllable and corruptible) or any other group?  All of them are well known for being threats to one group or another.  The Crows and the House of Repose are threats as well.  Should they all be locked up because they pose a potential threat?

 

LoL, did you even bother to read what i have said i pointed evidence that has nothing to do with "chantry dogma" (well not counting proving chantry right in that matter) but with magister that went to the black city.

 

No it doesn't mitigate that genocide occurred but it does abloish "fact" that elves extincted.

 

Well, too bad because they are locked up because they are threat whether they did something wrong or were just unlucky.Fact is they are locked in because they are threat. 

 

Oh boy. i have dealth with that argument so many time that that i have prepared formula. Comparing normal person to a mage is like comparing a knife to nuclear bomb , just because they are dangerous doesn't mean they are equally as dangerous and that they are treated and security measures taken to deal with them are the same.

 

Yes, with an exception of Red Templars and Grey wardens (specifically because they have mages) and i criticize as well im against those both groups at least in wardens case as they are. 

[Dai Grepher]

Was the opening post written by Donquijote?

 

Anyway, I don't think "sexual healing" would be a necessary requirement for the Circle's success.

 

What's missing is a group to watch over the templars. I once thought of a headcanon for my Hero King in which he has the Circle made part of Ferelden, which in turn would put it under the supervision of a bann. As such, the Circle would have regular troops to watch the templars and ensure that law and order was being followed. The lord or lady, in this case my Hero would appoint Alessa Isolde to the tower, would act as an intermediary between the mages and templars and also as a diplomat between the Circle and Ferelden.

 

Bannorns that required the use of mages or templars would be able to contact the Arlessa, and she would inform the Knight-Commander and First Enchanter of the request. She would also handle the finances, and completing jobs would also be handled via contracts to ensure that funds were distributed fairly.

 

Grievances would be brought before the First Enchanter, Arlessa, and Knight-Commander, and the Arlessa would act as an arbiter to ensure fairness in the process of investigation and judgment.

 

The mages would have new freedoms to organize social groups and events that promote a unified and peaceful community. The templars would have reduced burdens by allowing shorter shifts, as well as support and counseling if needed. Off-duty templars would be allowed to wear common clothes and mingle with others in the Circle community.

 

The Circle's premises would be expanded to include the outdoors, for those looking for a change from the Circle Tower's walls.

 

Most importantly, the mages would be worked with by the Ferelden crown to secure a safer world against threats stemming from the Fade. The main reason why people fear mages is because of their potential to be possessed. Thus, entering the Fade regularly to drive away demons would reduce the chances of a possession even being attempted.

 

Mages would also be able to converse with the benevolent spirits of the Fade to exchange information and learn more about the Fade and possibly some historical events.

 

Mages and templars alike would be paid for their work, and they would have the freedom to purchase personal property or send the money to their relatives. Visitation rights would also be granted.

[The Baconer]

I think having a sexual release center in a Circle would be a good idea, I mean I'm all for it in real life as well. Prostitution only has a stigma because of religion/morality, but all in all it's just a service like everything else. People have sex for myriads of reasons, the least of which is because of stress/boredom. People are going to find a way to do what they want anyway, so why not provide the safest atmosphere to do that? Also in this way, one could potentially cut down on accidental pregnancies, provided birth control is a thing in Thedas.

Qunari attitudes toward sex don't really align with the rest of Thedas, and I have my own grievances with the Qunari system as well (that whoever is doing the cork-popping doesn't really have a say in whether they'd like to or not). Having to accommodate sexual therapy centers in the Circle introduces problems and complications that don't really need to exist, at least in my mind.

If a mage wants to hit up a brothel on their time off, that's fine. If two or more mages want to hook up in the Circle, that's also fine.

[Dai Grepher]

Having to accommodate sexual therapy centers in the Circle introduces problems and complications that don't really need to exist, at least in my mind.

Yeah, the Circle has enough jerks.

[vertigomez]

Friendly reminder that nobody here is actually a mage or a templar. 'Cause these threads get... awful heated...

I like the idea of the buddy cop system (one mage and one templar or templar-esque person looking after each other's well-being), but like the Circle system I'm sure someone would eventually frig it up. One of them will be a power-hungry douchenozzle, they won't get along, or they'll get too attached... and then you've gotta decide where that line is, which probably isn't possible, eugh).

Anyway. That's one of the reasons my mage PCs surround themselves with so many companions who are wary of magic. It keeps my mages on their toes, and serves as a reminder that there are a ton of valid reasons for perfectly reasonable people to be scared shitless of them. Keeps my mages grounded in the real world, and they get to set a decent example for Joe Citizen, broadening everybody's horizons. Yay?

[eyezonlyii]

Qunari attitudes toward sex don't really align with the rest of Thedas, and I have my own grievances with the Qunari system as well (that whoever is doing the cork-popping doesn't really have a say in whether they'd like to or not). Having to accommodate sexual therapy centers in the Circle introduces problems and complications that don't really need to exist, at least in my mind.

If a mage wants to hit up a brothel on their time off, that's fine. If two or more mages want to hook up in the Circle, that's also fine.

Who said it would be forced? It would be a job, just like any other. No different from modern day porn stars or..."escorts"

[Ghost Gal]

The only thing that could make the Circle of Magi okay would be if it was an optional place to live. The minute you make it mandatory, it becomes a jail.

[vertigomez]

The only thing that could make the Circle of Magi okay would be if it was an optional place to live. The minute you make it mandatory, it becomes a jail.

Like school?

Just kidding. Sort of. Most people don't have to go to school for life. Couple decades, maybe.

[Steelcan]

True. We only have Corypheus' word on that point.

And given his first hand knowledge, and the private nature of the recording, there is little reason to doubt his telling of events.

 

 I think the whole rebellion and outright war thing is a good indication that it did indeed massively fail.

The rebellion was subsequently defeated militarily in ever theater.  Only the intervention of third parties, Ferelden, and later the Inquisition can save its sorry ass.

 

We do not know if that is ture. We know that the Magisters entered the already black Golden City but have no details on what came after. [EDIT: We only have Corypheus' word that the Magisters entered the already black Golden City.] The fact that the Dwarves who have dealt with Darkspawn more than anyone else do not believe this version of events is more than enough doubt for me.

We know that immediately after the 1st Blight started.  Maybe not the next day but reasonably close for a correlation to be established.  There's no reason to doubt the timeline here.

 

It is not. Noble families can visit their children but in the case of commoners, like Anders, their children are taken without notice and their families are threatened if they try to see them. And even in some Noble cases, such as with one of the escaped Mages in Kirkwall, his family hadn't seen him since he was taken when he was a child.

Or they are abandoned at the local Chantry after their parents give them up as in the case of Jowan, or they are locked in a barn by an angry town in the case of Wynne.  The fact that some families don't want to visit their mage children should not be conflated with an inherent ban on such meetings that we have no proof exists.

[Almostfaceman]

You are directly contradicting your previous posts.

 

What specifically have I contradicted?

[Almostfaceman]

You are directly contradicting your previous posts.

 

And, this makes no headway in countering my point and furthering yours. 

[The Baconer]

Who said it would be forced? It would be a job, just like any other. No different from modern day porn stars or..."escorts"

 

Right, and Thedas already has that. I just don't see why it working as a facility within the Circle.