168 réponses à ce sujet

[Medhia_Nox]

I wonder how we would react in the real world if people turned into 9 foot tall demonic looking mages that want to subvert the world just by being angry, sad, envious... cause America is the land of mental instability (can't speak for the rest of the world) - seems like a demons paradise.  

 

Sounds like a threat to "national security" - and I already know what my country does in the name of "national security". 

 

I do know how we treat people who can infect others with life threatening sicknesses... it's called quarantine.  

 

Are the Circles woefully ignorant in the performance of exorcisms?  Yes, absolutely.  They took the "too hard" route and decided killing abominations is better when they could have learned a thing or two from the Avvar shamans. 

 

But every group of mages on Thedas kills the dangerous ones BEFORE they become dangerous... even the Avvar who observe abominations first... decide to kill them in their sleep evidently before they can before a threat. 

 

Nobody on Thedas... aside form the imbeciles in Rivain who are stupid enough to think they're "natural disasters" let's abominations run around.  

 

And if someone's benchmark for "success" is... "They haven't collapsed yet."  goody for them.  Doesn't change my opinion about Rivain one bit. 

[Vit246]

It's funny the differences between the BSN and reddit versions of this topic

Point me to the reddit one.

[ArcaneEsper]

If the Chantry gave a sh*t they could easily have revised the Circles to focus more on training as opposed to imprisoning, and given Mages more say in how the whole thing is run so that everyone is a little less miserable. Though I do agree with a point made earlier that a general set of guidelines should apply to every Circle.

Also likening Mages to people who need to be quarantined for having contagious diseases is in very poor taste. Not every problem in a fictional universe needs to be analysed in relation to real world ones. Especially when no real world examples can reflect the complexity of the issue.

[Steelcan]

If the Chantry gave a sh*t they could easily have revised the Circles to focus more on training as opposed to imprisoning, and given Mages more say in how the whole thing is run so that everyone is a little less miserable. Though I do agree with a point made earlier that a general set of guidelines should apply to every Circle.

 

Also likening Mages to people who need to be quarantined for having contagious diseases is in very poor taste. Not every problem in a fictional universe needs to be analysed in relation to real world ones. Especially when no real world examples can reflect the complexity of the issue.

Training them for what?  Putting mages onto the front lines of armies?  Forcing them all to be tranquil so they can make enchantments for money the Chantry can use?  Furthermore, in theory mages do have a say in how the Circles are run, the whole issue is that the theory doesn't match the reality in most if any Circles.

 

Real world examples can help, but I do agree that there are no clear cut parallels, not because the mage one is more complex though it is a video game after all.

[TheKomandorShepard]

If the Chantry gave a sh*t they could easily have revised the Circles to focus more on training as opposed to imprisoning, and given Mages more say in how the whole thing is run so that everyone is a little less miserable. Though I do agree with a point made earlier that a general set of guidelines should apply to every Circle.

Also likening Mages to people who need to be quarantined for having contagious diseases is in very poor taste. Not every problem in a fictional universe needs to be analysed in relation to real world ones. Especially when no real world examples can reflect the complexity of the issue.

 

Why they should do that, circles task is protect world from mages, giving mages more freedoms would mean even more corruption in circles and endanger people outside as if mages weren't troublesome enough.

 

I doesn't need to be in good taste, that is reality and reality isn't always in good taste, if something is a threat to society safety you need to handle it whether those are sick people or mages. In that specific case comparison to real world can be made as cases of dealing with abnormal threat exist in real life and in order to create stable and safe society it is necessity to deal with such threats, mages are no exception to the rule. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Steelcan: Well, I figure if everyone can project their own minority on the mages and talk mostly from a place of emotion about the issue... might as well offer up some of my own.  

 

You know what they say... When in Minrathous.

 

And this notion that we're civilized in the modern world is preposterous, but people do love their illusions. 

[Iakus]

The difference is this: in order to be locked up in RL, you have to have proven you're a danger, as an individual, not just a member of a specific group. A generalized "higher risk of dangerous behaviour" isn't enough to justify this, at least by the laws of my country.

 

Of course, things might be different in countries like China, but we wouldn't want to emulate those, right?

The difference is in RL there is no magic, or the Fade, or, depending on who you're asking, demons.

 

Mages in Thedas are inherently dangerous.  Not just in the potential abuses of magic (which I imagine a standard court of law could deal with, albeit with magical reinforcement) but the dangers of demonic possession as well.  With that threat, even the kindest, most gentle mage could become a force of destruction which could destroy an entire community.  It is not the mage's fault (well , unless they were stupid enough to try and deal with demons) but it can happen.  And be so subtle that others may not see the signs until it is too late.  Would you not take steps if someone may at any time become a host to a xenomorph, which would burst out of their chests and run amok in the community?

 

This is why I'd be in favor of studying the Seeker ritual to see if it can safely be applied to mages.  Eliminating the threat of demonic possession would go a long way towards solving the problems surrounding mages and magic.

[Dai Grepher]

I agree with TKS.

The comparison to quarantine policies is accurate.

I didn't read all the posts, but the impression I get is that he's not blaming all mages, just recognizing that any mage could be a threat, and thus all must be regulated.

I think this is a common argument within the series itself, and it is logical. The Circles are meant to train mages in the proper use of magic, and prevent it from being used maliciously. The Circles also keep mages safe from fearful mobs.

Magic is dangerous just as fire is dangerous. It's the common belief.

[Secret Rare]

 

 

Mages in Thedas are inherently dangerous.  Not just in the potential abuses of magic (which I imagine a standard court of law could deal with, albeit with magical reinforcement) but the dangers of demonic possession as well.  With that threat, even the kindest, most gentle mage could become a force of destruction which could destroy an entire community.  It is not the mage's fault (well , unless they were stupid enough to try and deal with demons) but it can happen.  And be so subtle that others may not see the signs until it is too late.  Would you not take steps if someone may at any time become a host to a xenomorph, which would burst out of their chests and run amok in the community?

 

 

This is why I'd be in favor of studying the Seeker ritual to see if it can safely be applied to mages.  Eliminating the threat of demonic possession would go a long way towards solving the problems surrounding mages and magic.

 

 

Daemonic possession is not in itself exclusive of mages,demons possess the capability to infiltrate themselves into everyone non-mage's included and grant to them their own magical abilities.

Why we don't put into a cage everyone in the world?

 

 

Here it's seems that everyone is concerned with the symptoms of the issue and don't want to realize that the world is broken ,forced into an unnatural state.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Secret Rare: Abominations are exclusive to mages. 

 

Better yet though... why don't we seek a way to seal the Veil entirely and wipe magic out. 

 

Wait.. don't tell me... healing magic is worth the abominations and possessions.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

Daemonic possession is not in itself exclusive of mages,demons possess the capability to infiltrate themselves into everyone non-mage's included and grant to them their own magical abilities.

Why we don't put into a cage everyone in the world?

 

 

Here it's seems that everyone is concerned with the symptoms of the issue and don't want to realize that the world is broken ,forced into an unnatural state.

 

 

Demonic possession in case of non-mages is almost non-existent there is no single one example of that in whole series (in contrast to legions of abomnations) at least one that wouldn't be in case because of mage that brought demon across the veil, plus demon possessing non-mage won't result in abomnation.

[Iakus]

 

Daemonic possession is not in itself exclusive of mages,demons possess the capability to infiltrate themselves into everyone non-mage's included and grant to them their own magical abilities.

Why we don't put into a cage everyone in the world?

 

 

Here it's seems that everyone is concerned with the symptoms of the issue and don't want to realize that the world is broken ,forced into an unnatural state.

 

It is true, demons can possess non mages.  As they can possess animals, trees, corpses, even Tranquil or rocks under the right conditions.  Dwarves are the only ones we have seen that appear to be completely immune to demons.

 

However, we have also seen that it is much, much harder for them to possess muggles than mages.  Mages need to be on guard at all times against the threat of possession due to their connection to the Fade.  And the abomination that results from a mage and a demon joining is something that makes even templars cr*p themselves.

 

I don't know what you mean by "the world is broken"  

[thesuperdarkone2]

@Secret Rare: Abominations are exclusive to mages. 

 

Better yet though... why don't we seek a way to seal the Veil entirely and wipe magic out. 

 

Wait.. don't tell me... healing magic is worth the abominations and possessions.  

No they aren't as shown in DA2 where demons possessed templars. Gaider said demons can possess nonmages but don't often because nonmages don't have the power mages do.

[TheKomandorShepard]

No they aren't as shown in DA2 where demons possessed templars. Gaider said demons can possess nonmages but don't often because nonmages don't have the power mages do.

They can't become abomnations , abomnation is term for possessed mage abominations are much more dangerous than possessed non-mages, not to mention that those templars were possessed because of mages and cases of demonic possession in case of non-mages that weren't involving mages are pretty much as far non-existent despite being possible  . 

[Medhia_Nox]

No they aren't as shown in DA2 where demons possessed templars. Gaider said demons can possess nonmages but don't often because nonmages don't have the power mages do.

Possession is not an abomination.  

 

Ever play DA:O?  You know those 9 foot ugly things in The Broken Circle?  THAT is an abomination. 

 

Wynne and Anders are not abominations... they're bindings. 

[Vit246]

but the dangers of demonic possession as well.  With that threat, even the kindest, most gentle mage could become a force of destruction which could destroy an entire community.

 

And be so subtle that others may not see the signs until it is too late.  

 

.....

The problem I have with statements like these is the presumption that possessions are spontaneous without patterns, rhyme, or reason.

You say even the kindest, most gentle could become a force of destruction, basically at the drop of a hat, or if they sneeze, at random, out of nowhere. That... just doesn't compute.

[Iakus]

 

 

 

 

.....

The problem I have with statements like these is the presumption that possessions are spontaneous without patterns, rhyme, or reason.

You say even the kindest, most gentle could become a force of destruction, basically at the drop of a hat, or if they sneeze, at random. That... just doesn't compute.

 

I don't know about "the drop of a hat" but demons, especially demons of desire and pride, can be very clever and subtle.  Mages can and do find themselves falling under their sway without even realizing it.  

[TheKomandorShepard]

I don't know about "the drop of a hat" but demons, especially demons of desire and pride, can be very clever and subtle.  Mages can and do find themselves falling under their sway without even realizing it.  

Pretty much this, DG even said in interview that mages may don't even know they are under influence of demon.

[Secret Rare]

Possession is not an abomination.  

 

Ever play DA:O?  You know those 9 foot ugly things in The Broken Circle?  THAT is an abomination. 

 

 

Oh I'm impressed for the DA dictionary Revenants are not a form of abominations they are just ambulant corpses with a pride demon inside and it's a purely formal disquisition of course because they aren't very friendly just because they don't fit the dictionary description of abomination.

 

 

Better yet though... why don't we seek a way to seal the Veil entirely and wipe magic out. 

 

Wait.. don't tell me... healing magic is worth the abominations and possessions.  

The nature of the world doesn't stop to exist just because you hold a grudge against it,it will always remain there with or without your consent.

 

 

Demonic possession in case of non-mages is almost non-existent

I must have dreamed all the possessed trees in the brecilian forest right?It was non-existent!

[Secret Rare]

 

 

I don't know what you mean by "the world is broken"  

The veil is an artificial construct it should not be there it is the cause of existence of non mages and most demons

[Medhia_Nox]

@Secret Rare:  You clearly don't understand what an abomination is.

 

And "those trees" are called sylvans... and they're possessed, as you said.  Possession is NOT the same as an abomination. 

 

Did you play DA:O?  You met abominations in DA:O - The Broken Circle. 

And what the hell do Revnants have to do with anything?  They're dead bodies that are possessed... they're not abominations either.

 

Only a mage can become an abomination... 

 

As for the Veil... you believe one bald rat faced elf and call it "fact".  It is your prerogative of course... but I prefer to study things on my own terms.

[Secret Rare]

I don't know about "the drop of a hat" but demons, especially demons of desire and pride, can be very clever and subtle.  Mages can and do find themselves falling under their sway without even realizing it.  

Which obviously doesn't mean anything,demons possess a body of their own they are made of flesh not of spiritual energy.

Desire demons feed on desire to gain the strength to cross the veil they don't need a mage to do that,or i have dreamed the desire demon who was using the templar for an excursion into the world?

[Secret Rare]

@Secret Rare:  You clearly don't understand what an abomination is.

 

And "those trees" are called sylvans... and they're possessed, as you said.  Possession is NOT the same as an abomination. 

 

Did you play DA:O?  You met abominations in DA:O - The Broken Circle. 

And what the hell do Revnants have to do with anything?  They're dead bodies that are possessed... they're not abominations either.

 

Only a mage can become an abomination... 

 

 

And you clearly missed my point,Revenants are not abominations however aren't they dangerous if not more than abominations? 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Secret Rare: Yes, and doesn't the Chantry burn the dead?  Sounds like a smart practice.  

 

So, are you going to tell me burning the dead is horrible and we should just leave bodies in the ground and if they become Revenants and Arcane Horrors and Fanged Skeletons... well, that's just "nature"? 

 

No... taking precautions to stop disaster... is intelligent.  

 

Precautions in the event of mages becoming abominations... are intelligent. 

 

Don't instantly assume I meant that mages should be locked away... but yes, I do believe magetopia is a ridiculous notion on Thedas. 

[TheKomandorShepard]

 

I must have dreamed all the possessed trees in the brecilian forest right?It was non-existent!

 

 

We were talking about people not trees from what i recall , plus brecilian forest was location where 2 strongly magical forces fought to the point veil was vastly damaged.

 

And you clearly missed my point,Revenants are not abominations however aren't they dangerous if not more than abominations? 

They are dangerous, but nowhere near as abomnations plus once again rarely seen without mage involvement and require specifically powerful demon.