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[GreatPalpitator]

So it is claimed that when a Grey Warden kills an Archdemon the soul of the Old God jumps to the Gray Warden and both souls are destroyed. But, is it destroyed completely? I still have some doubts about this from stuff on the later games.

 

First off is that there are a couple of hints that Dumat could still be around, some people still render him cult and of course the greatest hint of this is in Legacy, where you can make an offering at an altar of Dumat and get a pendant with the codex saying "Sacrifices made at the altar of Dumat appear to have pleased the old god. The altar now appears dormant." Also during the boss fight with Corypheus he asks Dumat grant him power and he does become more powerful. Both of these can be argued though, the alter could just be the demons released when it is defiled who grant this boon, but it doesn't seem like something they would do, especially considering the released demons were lesser shades and rage demons, I don't imagine rage demons having any reason or will to hold this charade. The argument against the Corypheus fight powers is, well, when he was released it was obvious that he was delusional and not really aware of his surroundings, so it could just be he absorbs the power from the statues and attributes it to Dumat in his limited sanity.

 

Now one of the more interesting things that made me think they might still live comes from this very boss fight, at the end Coryopheus dies, but as we all know he didn't really, he possessed Janeka/Larius and escaped. This I find infinitely curious, Corypheuus displayed the same ability said to be used by the Archdemon to survive even when destroyed, but only not only was his soul not destroyed (like said happens with the Archdemon) he even overpowered his host and eventually restored to full power. It was stated that darkspawn have no soul, so the Old God soul can posses them but if it possesses a gray warden that does have a soul they both die, but not only did this not happen but Corypheus was capable of overpowering his host and eventually manifesting himself again (even having the magic that Larius didn't, and of course regaining his body).

 

So there's some possibilities: The Gray Wardens were wrong and the Old Gods are not destroyed, at least not entirely. Not being an actual Old God Corypheus is not bound by the same rules, somehow.

 

Now a shard of a god surviving and then restoring back to it's full self is not unheard of, Mythal/Flemeth does it twice, once in the backstory of how actually Flemeth came to be when the other gods tried to kill Mythal and it survived, the other when Hawke restores Flemeth in Sundermount. So it could be that the dead Old Gods are still around, only not complete, and could be restored in time or under some circumstances. 

 

Now of course the arguments against that they might still live, all surrounding Corypheus who in Inquisition no longer hears Dumat, even when dying and attempting to call to him one last time. This perfectly matches with the Old God being dead, after all Corypheus was his most faithful, why would he no longer be able to commune with him? Well could be Dumat is ignoring him, which might be (He was the old god of Silence...) as it is possible the Old Gods were simply using them and even before they went to the Black/Gold City their influence was waning on the Tevinter people already. Or maybe what's left of Dumat is not enough for him to clearly communicate with Corypheus. 

 

Now I have my own theory! (Adjusts tinfoil hat) see I think the reason Dumat or what's left of him does not answer Corypheus is not that it doesn't want to or is dead... but that he IS what's left of Dumat. Corypheus displays a lot of abilities associated with the Old Gods, I dare say he displays abilities superior to those associated with the Old Gods (he survives the switch of body, and he can not only control darkspawn but wardens as well). And the controlling of the carta and the wardens at Vimmark happens when he is asleep, and when he wakes it's pretty clear he isn't conscious of doing so. So he can sing to the tainted while asleep... much like the Old Gods, and it just so happens the altar of Dumat that responds to your offerings or defiling is close to him, so I think he is subconsciously mantling Dumat, some piece of Dumat went to his most dedicated follower or due to his immense power and connection to the Old God he is BECOMING Dumat, it was his stated goal later to become a God and it could be he was well underway. Also the reason that he gets no answer from Dumat when attempting to communicate with him is, well, he is him or whats left of him so he can't really answer himself, like Anders says about justice "It's not like I can have a conversation with him in my head".

 

I'm pretty sure future games will speak more about the nature of the deities of the world of Thedas, with the elven pantheon becoming a central part and strong suggestions tying the Old Gods with the Forgotten Ones. I wonder if we will get answers to this, or about the Black City (I don't know if I prefer the idea of getting to it or to never get to it better) or about whether The Maker actually exists as such and other things (it seems at every turn that the holiness of Andraste is confirmed it can be explained otherwise). Also what's up with the whole "The Quinari are a cursed race and a mistake" stuff, goddamn it seems the next game takes place in Tivinter and I can see a lot of this stuff being answered there... also they have talked a lot about Minrathous, wanna seeeeee.

 

Anyways, thoughts on this? Is my theory insane? Do you think the Old Gods could have survived somehow?

[Inquisitor Tiber Trevelyan]

I never believed that the soul of the Old God really dies when it passes to a Gray Warden instead of a darkspawn or a fetus. 

 

About the altar and Corypheus in Legacy, that's difficult to know if it has some meaning. I don't think Dumat is inside Corypheus though. 

 

 

The Old Gods decreased in influence (or stopped speaking) about the same time Corypheus and his priest crew entered the fade (their gods growing silence was probably the main reason for them entering it). There are also two remaining Old Gods (Razikale and Lusacan) in the ground who have been very silent too since the same time Corypheus entered the fade. 

So that the dead Old Gods can no longer be heard doesn't really mean anything since the alive ones cannot be heard either (except by the darkspawn who hear their song). 

 

We don't really know exactly what the Old Gods are but most people suspect they're either the Evanuris (seven elven gods minus Mythal and Fen'Harel) or the Forgotten Ones. Either of these two theories are highly likely to be true. 

We know through Cole that Solas is in two places at the same time. We also know that the gods of old are extremely hard to kill and can cheat death again and again (just like Mythal did, hence the Dread Wolf locking the Evanuris away instead of killing them). 

 

 

The way I see it there are a number of possiblities...

 

1) Maybe Sandal has the soul of an old god, probably through some dark ritual (whether intentional or not). This could be the case with more individuals out there in Thedas. 

 

2) Maybe if the archdemon soul enters a Gray Warden (not through some dark ritual) the soul of the Archdemon becomes "pure" again but ends up at some very unlikely place (maybe that's what happened to Sandal). There could be more out there. 

 

3) The power of the soul is gone when the Archdemon dies, but the soul is still very much alive somewhere else/in some prison (remember Solas being in two places at the same time and he locked both the Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones away). 

 

4) It could of course be that Dumat and the four other "dead" Old Gods are truely dead, which I hope is not the case. I strongly believe that Dumat is the Tevinter name for Dirthamen (or maybe Elgar'nan). Would be a shame if either of them are dead just like that... (wrote pretty much about this Dirthamen connection thing in another thread, check it out if you want: http://forum.bioware...umat-spoilers/)

 

[Force of the North]

I had a similar theory back before DAI came out.  The gist of it was that the old gods were really the imprisoned Elven Gods a grey warden willingly sacrificed their life, and that paid for the purification of the corrupted old god.  Once purified the Elven God would take control of the body of the sacrificed warden.  That is really what is going on in Weisshupt (might have miss spelled that).  So once all the Old Gods are set free and purified The Elven Gods would then try and take back the world for themselves.  

 

I do not know if this theory still sticks with the new information coming out of DAI.     

[Illegitimus]

 

I

4) It could of course be that Dumat and the four other "dead" Old Gods are truely dead, which I hope is not the case. I strongly believe that Dumat is the Tevinter name for Dirthamen (or maybe Elgar'nan). Would be a shame if either of them are dead just like that... (wrote pretty much about this Dirthamen connection thing in another thread, check it out if you want: http://forum.bioware...umat-spoilers/)

 

 

I'm fairly confident that the Old Gods were a rival pantheon belonging to the lizard guys who were wiped out by the primordial elves and that's why they got their revenge by siccing the ancestors of the Vints on the Elvish empire.  

[ModernAcademic]

So it is claimed that when a Grey Warden kills an Archdemon the soul of the Old God jumps to the Gray Warden and both souls are destroyed. But, is it destroyed completely? I still have some doubts about this from stuff on the later games.

 

First off is that there are a couple of hints that Dumat could still be around, some people still render him cult and of course the greatest hint of this is in Legacy, where you can make an offering at an altar of Dumat and get a pendant with the codex saying "Sacrifices made at the altar of Dumat appear to have pleased the old god. The altar now appears dormant." Also during the boss fight with Corypheus he asks Dumat grant him power and he does become more powerful. Both of these can be argued though, the alter could just be the demons released when it is defiled who grant this boon, but it doesn't seem like something they would do, especially considering the released demons were lesser shades and rage demons, I don't imagine rage demons having any reason or will to hold this charade. The argument against the Corypheus fight powers is, well, when he was released it was obvious that he was delusional and not really aware of his surroundings, so it could just be he absorbs the power from the statues and attributes it to Dumat in his limited sanity.

 

Now one of the more interesting things that made me think they might still live comes from this very boss fight, at the end Coryopheus dies, but as we all know he didn't really, he possessed Janeka/Larius and escaped. This I find infinitely curious, Corypheuus displayed the same ability said to be used by the Archdemon to survive even when destroyed, but only not only was his soul not destroyed (like said happens with the Archdemon) he even overpowered his host and eventually restored to full power. It was stated that darkspawn have no soul, so the Old God soul can posses them but if it possesses a gray warden that does have a soul they both die, but not only did this not happen but Corypheus was capable of overpowering his host and eventually manifesting himself again (even having the magic that Larius didn't, and of course regaining his body).

 

So there's some possibilities: The Gray Wardens were wrong and the Old Gods are not destroyed, at least not entirely. Not being an actual Old God Corypheus is not bound by the same rules, somehow.

 

Now a shard of a god surviving and then restoring back to it's full self is not unheard of, Mythal/Flemeth does it twice, once in the backstory of how actually Flemeth came to be when the other gods tried to kill Mythal and it survived, the other when Hawke restores Flemeth in Sundermount. So it could be that the dead Old Gods are still around, only not complete, and could be restored in time or under some circumstances. 

 

Now of course the arguments against that they might still live, all surrounding Corypheus who in Inquisition no longer hears Dumat, even when dying and attempting to call to him one last time. This perfectly matches with the Old God being dead, after all Corypheus was his most faithful, why would he no longer be able to commune with him? Well could be Dumat is ignoring him, which might be (He was the old god of Silence...) as it is possible the Old Gods were simply using them and even before they went to the Black/Gold City their influence was waning on the Tevinter people already. Or maybe what's left of Dumat is not enough for him to clearly communicate with Corypheus. 

 

Now I have my own theory! (Adjusts tinfoil hat) see I think the reason Dumat or what's left of him does not answer Corypheus is not that it doesn't want to or is dead... but that he IS what's left of Dumat. Corypheus displays a lot of abilities associated with the Old Gods, I dare say he displays abilities superior to those associated with the Old Gods (he survives the switch of body, and he can not only control darkspawn but wardens as well). And the controlling of the carta and the wardens at Vimmark happens when he is asleep, and when he wakes it's pretty clear he isn't conscious of doing so. So he can sing to the tainted while asleep... much like the Old Gods, and it just so happens the altar of Dumat that responds to your offerings or defiling is close to him, so I think he is subconsciously mantling Dumat, some piece of Dumat went to his most dedicated follower or due to his immense power and connection to the Old God he is BECOMING Dumat, it was his stated goal later to become a God and it could be he was well underway. Also the reason that he gets no answer from Dumat when attempting to communicate with him is, well, he is him or whats left of him so he can't really answer himself, like Anders says about justice "It's not like I can have a conversation with him in my head".

 

I'm pretty sure future games will speak more about the nature of the deities of the world of Thedas, with the elven pantheon becoming a central part and strong suggestions tying the Old Gods with the Forgotten Ones. I wonder if we will get answers to this, or about the Black City (I don't know if I prefer the idea of getting to it or to never get to it better) or about whether The Maker actually exists as such and other things (it seems at every turn that the holiness of Andraste is confirmed it can be explained otherwise). Also what's up with the whole "The Quinari are a cursed race and a mistake" stuff, goddamn it seems the next game takes place in Tivinter and I can see a lot of this stuff being answered there... also they have talked a lot about Minrathous, wanna seeeeee.

 

Anyways, thoughts on this? Is my theory insane? Do you think the Old Gods could have survived somehow?

 

Old Gods = fragments of souls that were stored in high dragons and that belonged to the Evanuris (a.k.a. the mage rulers of Arlathan).

The magic is simple. House a piece of your soul inside another living creature and then, even should your body be destroyed, your soul survives.

The dragons were chosen not because they had any magical special properties. They were chosen simply because they are very difficult to kill.

 

Which explains why the Magisters could "HEAR" the dragons (they were hearing the bit of soul belonging to the Evanuris, the mage rulers of Arlathan, who taught them all about their ancient magic).

Which explains why Solas feared a Magister had learned the secret of effective immortality. It is the secret of the Evanuris' immortality. THEY developed it in the first place, not the Magisters. (!!!)

Which explains why the Evanuris are still alive, like Flemeth and Solas.

Which explains why Solas is pissed the Wardens are killing Archdemons (he's killing the creatures that house the bits of soul of the Evanuris).

Which explains why the Magisters know about this secret and one of them, Corypheus, survived thanks to said magic. AND was able to bodyjump.

Which explains why he kept a dragon nearby that he could control. His control derived from the fragment of Corypheus' soul inside the beast. And that is why Corypheus ceases to be immortal when the dragon is destroyed. You destroy the only other fragment of soul the Magister has.

Which explains why Corypheus went after an elven temple that belonged to an Evanuris, Mythal. Because all the Magisters know about magic comes from the ancient elves. Including all the disgusting blood magic. Just check Falon'Din's mosaic in the temple with Solas in your party. He'll tell you about the blood sacrifices the god enjoyed.

 

Trust me, it's that simple.

[ModernAcademic]

PS: If all of this sounds a lot similar to Voldemort and Horcruxes, this is NOT a mere coincidence.

 

This kind of occult magic actually exists IRL. Of course it doesn't work, because it's utter BS. But there are people who practise dark rituals and make sacrifices believing in whatever mystic force the ritual stirs. Yes, there are people who are dumb to the point where they believe if they spill an innocent's blood or torture them, then their lives will actually improve somehow.

 

Fantasy sounds a lot less scary than reality when you look at it from this point of view.

[Gervaise]

I don't know if it is significant but the Grey Wardens only learned about Corypheus and the intelligent darkspawn some 12 years after the death of Dumat.   Also apparently they knew there was more than one but Corypheus was the only one they succeeded in capturing.    He was enticed into their trap by using the corpse of the archdemon.

 

I wonder also if the reason they imprisoned him was because they realised he could not be killed.   If that was the case then he was already effectively immortal back then.   So was he already linked with his dragon at that time?   

 

I'm pretty sure there is a link between the Evanuris and the old gods in some way.   It just seems too much of a coincidence otherwise that Solas is so beside himself over the Grey Wardens plan to kill the last of the arch demons and when quizzed it is clear this has nothing to do with his concern about the spirits/demons who they are planning to use.    I wondered if each sleeping dragon was in fact holding part of the soul of each of the Evanuris and because they were split in this way, it actually reduced the power of the god where he has imprisoned them.    Flemeth wanted to capture the soul and appropriate that power for herself.    If instead the arch demon is killed by the Grey Warden, it doesn't destroy the soul but releases it to return to the Fade where it can await the return  or in some way join up immediately with  the rest of its being, thus making it stronger again.   If all seven got back their power they might have enough to release themselves.    At the very least it would mean that when Solas drops the Veil, he would be confronted by seven Evanuris back to full power.