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New info about DA4's protagonist! Also... DA4 won't reveal much about dwarves?


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#251
dsl08002

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There are reasons I think it's not working either, and I feel like saying them, so:
 
The main, general reason I don't think it's working is simply that in a lot of ways, Dragon Age is constructed like a series that has a returning protagonist, with many of the features thereof... just without the protagonist itself. As you said, this is less of an issue between DA:O and DA2, but it's still there. You have overarching plotlines, returning characters, even returning antagonists, just no returning protagonist.
 
Bioware still treats all the protagonists as though they're not really separate though, in the sense that Bioware just sees them as the player. With that viewpoint, they don't understand the disconnect when Alistair goes all the way to Kirkwall to meet Hawke, even if it's a bit far-fetched. I mentioned this problem with Morrigan in another thread too. Your dialogue options with her are more suited to someone who already knows her, not someone who just met her and should be suspicious. They don't understand how odd it is when the Inquisitor decides if Hawke or Stroud/Loghain/Alistair sacrifices themselves, because even though the Inquisitor just met them are really has no right to make that decision, the player does. It's really pretty contrived that the Inquisitor makes that call, like it's only there so the player can make a "tough decision", not so the Inquisitor has to. After all, there's hardly any follow-up to it, since unlike Kaidan/Ashley, the Inquisitor didn't know them. They don't realize the damage to the narrative that happens when plotlines old PCs were invested in are wrapped-up by new PCs who lack any connection to them. Because they're still wrapped up by the player. Bioware thinks the player's investment is enough to provide that satisfaction.
 
So I just realized, Thedas isn't the protagonist! It never has been. The Player is the protagonist. This is really how they're writing it. They're writing it on a meta level. I don't think that's a good or satisfying way to write a series. The more I think about it, the more I don't like it. (Which is also a funny thing to think about, because if the writing satisfies me at first, I don't end up analyzing this much and don't find more things to get angry about. It's like a snowball-effect for problems with the game. Happened with ME3 too.)
 
I hope that made some sense to people, even if they disagree.


Exactly because the choices you make as a player is influenced from previous games. most known action is not let Leliana become the divine because you assumed that it meant that she would break up with the warden if she was LI. That is also a reason why i dont like new PC along with choice matter. Because you would always make decision in perspective of warden, hawke or even now inquisitor.
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#252
Toasted Llama

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So I guess chopping off limbs is how you tie off a character.

 

Sometimes I wonder if they ever watch Game of Thrones *cough* Jaime Lannister *cough*.

 

 

+1 for using the phrase "give the feels" tho


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#253
BansheeOwnage

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Just my two cents, 'cause I can't seem to stop responding to these threads. :ph34r: That's specifically what I like about it. I like that the PC - in every game - is just one character among many, not necessarily more important or special than any other notable NPC (except that the player steers them). Cullen could have fallen through the Fade and ended up with the Anchor. Shianni or Fergus could have been a Grey Warden instead. The eldest Hawke could have suffered death-by-ogre, leaving Bethany or Carver as the protagonist of DA2.

Things would have turned out differently, but the world of Thedas remains constant. The same villains would still be trying to end the world. The mages and the Templars would still be at odds. The Qunari would still be poised to strike.

I just dislike the idea of one person being so special that they're (for instance) the only Grey Warden to survive killing the Archdemon, and they were there when the mage/templar war broke out, and they're also the second coming of Andraste... I don't want to be Shepard who is THE person to go to when the world's in peril. Does that make any sense, even if you disagree? I feel like I'm not explaining myself very well.

No, I get what you're saying. And you have some good points. I don't think switching protagonists has to be bad (though I feel like one game isn't always enough time with them). I think TES and Fallout do a better job at switching protagonists, because the stories are more separated and give reasons for previous PCs not to be handling the new problem. But natural reasons, like "It's 200 years later and they're dead", or "The new game is set in a place really far from the last" etc. instead of more contrived reasons.

 

But really what I was trying to say wasn't that new PCs are bad, it was just that I think Bioware writing on a meta level makes the player more of a protagonist than the protagonists, and I think that can have negative consequences.

 

The player as the protagonist, yeah I see it now that you mention it.

I think part of it may be simply that people (many people probably) don't actually like to role play these games as deeply as some of us here do. They just play the game, and more or less self insert each time. So in essence, the protagonist always is the player, and always the same character. It's strange to me, but it's a different style of play.

Hmm... I feel like I self-insert, partially, but also that I roleplay. I don't name my characters after myself, but I sometimes give them some of my features (like scars, eye colour, etc.) even if they look quite different. So like an idealized/better-looking/cooler-looking version of myself, ha :lol:

 

But character-wise, it's more complicated. I suppose the main component that I self-insert is my morality, because I have a hard time making choices I wouldn't make in real life, and don't get any satisfaction out of it. I could never bring myself to do most of the renegade or "evil" things, for instance. So I suppose there is some "What would I do?" going on, but I also roleplay because I take into account my characters' past and how that shaped them. Standard RP stuff.

 

When it comes to dialogue options, I think there is less self-insertion, because I'm not as cool as these people :P So I just say what I think fits them. For Hawke, it's usually Purple because she uses humour to deal with her rather crappy life. My warrior!Inquisitor would take some of the more direct and aggressive options, because she was more short-tempered and enjoyed fighting, compared to my mage!Inquisitor who was actually supposed to be the exact same character if she had been born a mage. So she had to learn self-control, etc. Same person, different background. So that example is a bit like how I roleplay my characters. Same general morality, different life.

 

Anyway, random useless thoughts :whistle:


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#254
jlb524

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My opinion is that they didn't do a good job of tying things off with the Inquisitor (or Hawke, etc.).  I think it's hard to argue against that.

 

I personally don't have much of an emotional investment in the Inquisitor/Solas relationship/rivalry and I wouldn't want to give up the kind of stuff having a new protagonist would bring just for that.   This is speculation, but a new protagonist could be native Tevinter (if that's where the next game is set) and I'm interested in exploring that setting from the perspective of someone who's lived it their whole life.  New protagonist then brings the potential for new relationships (romances, friendships, rivalries, etc.).  New protagonist might have a more developed background this time (family members we actually get to meet!  A mentor character, etc.)   These may not happen but the potential is there.

 

I know returning protagonists can also form new relationships but I kind of hate how they sweep all the old ones under the carpet for them.



#255
Sah291

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@BansheeOwnage,
I'd say that's still mostly a roleplay approach. I mean that for a lot of players, the PC is less a character and more an avatar for the player to drop into the story as themselves. So it doesn't matter you only met Morrigan as the Warden, you still care about her. There was a lot of discussion on the forum about it, as part of the reason why some were upset that there was little background provided for the Inquisitor.

But anyway, I feel as though the writers do this sometimes with their other characters as well. As though they mean to engage and interact with you, the player, and not just as your character.

It's interesting, but I like the more cinematic feel.
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#256
Nefla

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If the player is the protagonist rather than the PC (Warden/Hawke/Inquisitor)...then wow, yeah it finally makes sense. I'm not supposed to be roleplaying a character, I'm supposed to be playing a self insert of ME (probably even modeled to look like me and have my name), and if I'd done so then it wouldn't be jarring and make for an unbelievable and inconsistent story to keep having all these cameos and returning characters for no reason and plotlines started by one me but finished by a different me.

 

Mind=blown. :o



#257
Smudjygirl

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https://twitter.com/...696414712639489

 

If i recall, Tweets like this are partly to blame for the hope of Inquisitor returning. How is closure possible without you know who making an appearance. I'm interested how they do plan on giving closure to all Inquisitor's involvement with Solas.



#258
sniper_arrow

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https://twitter.com/...696414712639489

 

If i recall, Tweets like this are partly to blame for the hope of Inquisitor returning. How is closure possible without you know who making an appearance. I'm interested how they do plan on giving closure to all Inquisitor's involvement with Solas.

 

By either killing the Inquisitor, help out the DA4 PC for the remainder of the game, or letting them leave after their business is done, like Hawke.



#259
Nefla

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By either killing the Inquisitor, help out the DA4 PC for the remainder of the game, or letting them leave after their business is done, like Hawke.

"Corypheus is my responsibility" -Hawke right before buggering off to Weisshaupt and not helping with Corypheus at all. :lol:


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#260
AresKeith

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https://twitter.com/...696414712639489

 

If i recall, Tweets like this are partly to blame for the hope of Inquisitor returning. How is closure possible without you know who making an appearance. I'm interested how they do plan on giving closure to all Inquisitor's involvement with Solas.

 

Except nothing said the Inquisitor wouldn't return



#261
Nefla

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Except nothing said the Inquisitor wouldn't return

That's the difference between hope and certainty.


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#262
Tidus

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Nefla, B-W suffers from the lack of good writers that can stay the course and tell a coherent story and more the pity..

 

The DA series could easy become more popular then Final Fantasy but,not with the current story line inconsistencies that is found in DA:O and DA:I-I can't stay interested in DA:2 enough to tell.



#263
wright1978

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By either killing the Inquisitor, help out the DA4 PC for the remainder of the game, or letting them leave after their business is done, like Hawke.


I'm down with that, I'll vote for death.

#264
Dai Grepher

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"Corypheus is my responsibility" -Hawke right before buggering off to Weisshaupt and not helping with Corypheus at all. :lol:

 

Said in response to volunteering to distract a giant demon that was not Corypheus.

 

I suppose the only explanations I can give are that Hawke saw the Nightmare as part of Corypheus' plot, and she was responsible for foiling it since she released him. Then, going to Weisshaupt instead of going after Corypheus was to fulfill Alistrougain's duty of repairing the damage Corypheus did to the Wardens and basically fixing the problems in the Order. She probably felt obligated to help repair the broken Order because that's what Alistougain would have done.



#265
Addictress

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I'm not. *incoherent furious chittering noises* :crying:


Fffffff

#266
Addictress

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I can't

take it

the waiting

the uncertainty

and the solavellan hell


Please, Patrick. *grasping air* Patrick please.
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#267
Smudjygirl

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That's the difference between hope and certainty.

 

Thanks for actually reading my post, Nefla. Too many just see the words "Inquisitor" and "PC" and give an unrelated response.

 

But to me that tweet suggests Weekes cares about the story between them. So there is hope he can pull it off


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#268
vbibbi

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There are reasons I think it's not working either, and I feel like saying them, so:
 
The main, general reason I don't think it's working is simply that in a lot of ways, Dragon Age is constructed like a series that has a returning protagonist, with many of the features thereof... just without the protagonist itself. As you said, this is less of an issue between DA:O and DA2, but it's still there. You have overarching plotlines, returning characters, even returning antagonists, just no returning protagonist.
 
Bioware still treats all the protagonists as though they're not really separate though, in the sense that Bioware just sees them as the player. With that viewpoint, they don't understand the disconnect when Alistair goes all the way to Kirkwall to meet Hawke, even if it's a bit far-fetched. I mentioned this problem with Morrigan in another thread too. Your dialogue options with her are more suited to someone who already knows her, not someone who just met her and should be suspicious. They don't understand how odd it is when the Inquisitor decides if Hawke or Stroud/Loghain/Alistair sacrifices themselves, because even though the Inquisitor just met them and really has no right to make that decision, the player does. It's really pretty contrived that the Inquisitor makes that call, like it's only there so the player can make a "tough decision", not so the Inquisitor has to. After all, there's hardly any follow-up to it, since unlike Kaidan/Ashley, the Inquisitor didn't know them. They don't realize the damage to the narrative that happens when plotlines old PCs were invested in are wrapped-up by new PCs who lack any connection to them. Because they're still wrapped up by the player. Bioware thinks the player's investment is enough to provide that satisfaction.
 
So I just realized, Thedas isn't the protagonist! It never has been. The Player is the protagonist. This is really how they're writing it. They're writing it on a meta level. I don't think that's a good or satisfying way to write a series. The more I think about it, the more I don't like it. (Which is also a funny thing to think about, because if the writing satisfies me at first, I don't end up analyzing this much and don't find more things to get angry about. It's like a snowball-effect for problems with the game. Happened with ME3 too.)
 
I hope that made some sense to people, even if they disagree.


That's a very good point and awesome analysis. And demonstrates some of the basic flaws the series is based upon if Bioware doesn't have a strong enough game plan for the overarching series. It's a problem not just with playing previous games, but also relying on other source material (books and comics most notably).

Of course, I come to a different conclusion to this analysis: Bioware needs to make a clean break with as much of the previous three games as possible to try to mitigate this player-as-protagonist syndrome. So IMO it's good for a new PC, new setting, new cast of characters. There are of course some lingering threads which need to be address, the bald world ending elephant in the room, which require a previous connection, but that can't be helped.

  

I agree, and it would have been pretty cool if we could call him by his name in a confrontation, either as an appeal to reason or simply to get on his nerves. Similarly to how you can convince Calpernia to switch sides if you did the right missions. Obviously, it probably wouldn't work on Corypheus, but it would have been cool regardless.


Any kind of interaction beyond a basic fight would have been good. Corypheus is not the archdemon, there can be more to it than mindless combat.
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#269
In Exile

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"Corypheus is my responsibility" -Hawke right before buggering off to Weisshaupt and not helping with Corypheus at all. :lol:

 

Yeah, dumb writing. Not sure it's an argument for recurring protagonists. 



#270
Nefla

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Yeah, dumb writing. Not sure it's an argument for recurring protagonists. 

It wasn't an argument for anything, just poking fun at that part.



#271
AresKeith

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Thanks for actually reading my post, Nefla. Too many just see the words "Inquisitor" and "PC" and give an unrelated response.

 

But to me that tweet suggests Weekes cares about the story between them. So there is hope he can pull it off

 

Because that tweet does give the impression that the Inquisitor will possibly return and that's still possible



#272
Heimdall

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Because that tweet does give the impression that the Inquisitor will possibly return and that's still possible

Yup, there's a difference between the Inquisitor not returning and the Inquisitor not being the protagonist.

#273
BansheeOwnage

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"Corypheus is my responsibility" -Hawke right before buggering off to Weisshaupt and not helping with Corypheus at all. :lol:

It's all happened before, and it will happen again :P

 

That's a very good point and awesome analysis. And demonstrates some of the basic flaws the series is based upon if Bioware doesn't have a strong enough game plan for the overarching series. It's a problem not just with playing previous games, but also relying on other source material (books and comics most notably).

Of course, I come to a different conclusion to this analysis: Bioware needs to make a clean break with as much of the previous three games as possible to try to mitigate this player-as-protagonist syndrome. So IMO it's good for a new PC, new setting, new cast of characters. There are of course some lingering threads which need to be address, the bald world ending elephant in the room, which require a previous connection, but that can't be helped.

  
Any kind of interaction beyond a basic fight would have been good. Corypheus is not the archdemon, there can be more to it than mindless combat.

Thanks! It just sort of hit me when I thought about it. Your conclusion isn't necessarily different from mine. While I prefer serials with returning protagonists in general, my point wasn't so much that that's how it must be done, it was more than they should either do that or do what you said (clean break), but not so some odd in-between thing, because that can be unsatisfying to people who prefer either style.

 

"The weaknesses of both, the strengths of neither."

 

I don't mind the occasional returning character though, as long as it makes sense. It still ties the world together. But it can't be excessive, it shouldn't apply to major plot-points, and meta-gaming shouldn't be relied-upon for decision-making - ingame and otherwise.

 

Exactly. If you have a villain like Corypheus, you should be able to do more than just fight him. One of the things I like about Bioware games is that you can do so much verbal confrontation, and that you can often solve problems with speeches instead of fighting, or at least try. Or maybe just try to understand where they're coming from. Sadly, this didn't apply to Corypheus.


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#274
BansheeOwnage

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Yup, there's a difference between the Inquisitor not returning and the Inquisitor not being the protagonist.

And that difference is most likely going to translate to Quizzy being turned into an NPC like Hawke. I think people have explained why that would be incredibly unsatisfying, probably a lot more than Hawke was. Some people have even said they'd prefer they didn't appear at all than to have than happen.


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#275
AresKeith

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And that difference is most likely going to translate to Quizzy being turned into an NPC like Hawke. I think people have explained why that would be incredibly unsatisfying, probably a lot more than Hawke was. Some people have even said they'd prefer they didn't appear at all than to have than happen.

 

And it's possible that the Inquisitor will return as a playable character instead of an NPC