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[Bayonet Hipshot]

So we all know that according the Solas, the world before the Veil is a world where creatures of the fade and creatures of the flesh happily coexisted and lived with one another. According to Solas, the Evanuris ruined everything and they had to be banished away forever.

 

However, I would like to explore it from another perspective. Why ? Because Solas is biased in favor of spirits and magic. He is a mage who likes spirits and the Fade after all. What if we could look at pre-Veil Thedas from the eyes of a mundane ? By mundane I mean someone who had minimal capacity for magic or someone who is not magical.

 

From the perspective of a mundane, pre-Veil Thedas was:-

 

1) A world where seven beings, spirits who managed to become more than spirits, managed to enslave an entire race of people. The Evanuris. Note I said seven beings, not a system of government or anything. Just seven beings and they managed to enslave an entire group of people. Pretty f*cked up if you ask me.

 

2) A world where one of those beings evidently killed a Titan and it appears that the Titan was killed so that its blood, Lyrium, can be harvested as a resource. The Evanuris also slaughtered Dwarves. Bear in mind the Titans are not mindless creatures, they were most likely sentient creatures. It would be like killing dolphins, apes, etc - Deplorable.

 

3) A world where Spirits were enslaved and bound in order to perform specific roles and duties. Best example is The Archivist in Vir-Dirthara. The Archivist was turned into something like a networked relay librarian. In many ways, she is like Avina from Mass Effect, except she is sentient. If The Archivist did her job out of her own free will, then after the Veil, she would have been freed but she is bound to Vir Dirthara. Or how about when Mythal evidently called out Solas when he is in spirit form and placed a binding on him, which he later broke out of. You cannot tell me that there was no element of slavery or binding that was not involved here.

 

4) A world where creatures of the Fade were openly exposed to the creatures of the flesh. Why is this a problem ? Well, from what we can see in Thedas, its obvious not everyone there is equipped to maintain a force of will to not turn a spirit into a demon and to resist the demons. The point I am trying to make is that creatures of the flesh have flaws, emotions and feelings which can effect spirits and demons. As such, they can also fall victim to spirits and demons. I am willing to bet good money this is why many people in the pre-Veil world were fine with Evanuris in the first place. They offered some form of protection against all that, too bad they decided to enslave those they were supposed to protect. Besides, can you imagine a world where the Nightmare demon was free to feed ?

 

5) A world where the magically capable oppressed the less magically capable. The Evanuris were extremely powerful mages. How did you think the notion that a mage must lead the Dalish came about ? Additionally, Tevinter, a nation that was built on the bones of ancient Elvhenan, also practice this. Put simply, there was magical apartheid. In the pre-Veil days, it was magically capable oppressing the less magically capable. In the post-Veil days, this is reversed with the exception of Tevinter.

 

6) A world where powerful people actively fought one another in order to attain godhood and supremacy. The war with the Evanuris and the Titans. The war with Evanuris and the Forgotten Ones. The war among the Evanuris. Sure, you have war among nations in the post-Veil world but a war among mundanes is preferable to wars among godlike beings, I think.

 

I don't know about you folks but if you look at the pre-Veil world from another perspective, it doesn't look like the glorious place that Solas describes.

 

Thoughts & Comments ?

[Sah291]

I agree it's relative.

In a pre-Veil world, where magic is common and spirits taken for granted, a "mundane" (if you could even call them that), would be a highly unusual person... They might look at the world and think all this belief in spirits and demons and slavish devotion to 7 magical gods, who are really just powerful beings, to be highly superstitious and not grounded in reality. There is evidence, The Forgotten Ones, might have viewed their world this way and this why they rebelled against the elven gods. They didn't think they were really gods.

This is why I hesistate to call non mages "mundanes" as if they are inherently less powerful or inferior. They are only "mundane" because they exist in a society where they are the majority and their assumptions about reality are taken for granted.

Imagine a world where magic has disappeared or gone underground even more. So far, Thedas is still a world where spirits are taken for granted as existing by most of the major religions/societies, even the ones that oppose magic. There's really no such thing atheism in Thedas, as a philosophy. But imagine that world as a possible future with the Veil up.

Did anyone ever play The Longest Journey back in the day? Reminds me of how in that game's lore, there were two separated worlds, divided between magic and science. Both were kind of dystopian nightmares (the magic realm had slavery and the science one was a police state). But it was split up because the merged world had become so powerful to the point of destroying everything in the past.

[In Exile]

Do we know if mundanes even existed in the pre-Veil world? Before Mythal, it's strongly hinted dwarves did not exist in a form we knew or would recognize.

[Dai Grepher]

I don't think Solas' world was the pre-Veil world. I think the Veil existed in many parts of the world, but there were gaps where the Fade and Real met. The evanuris built kingdoms in these gaps.

When it was just the Fade, it was probably more realistic, though still shaped by thought. Like observing and controlling a vivid dream.

[IllustriousT]

I don't think Solas' world was the pre-Veil world. I think the Veil existed in many parts of the world, but there were gaps where the Fade and Real met. The evanuris built kingdoms in these gaps.

When it was just the Fade, it was probably more realistic, though still shaped by thought. Like observing and controlling a vivid dream.

 

Solas admitted to creating the Veil and explains that before he did so, that there was no distinction between the fade world and the "real" world.

[Dai Grepher]

Solas admitted to creating the Veil and explains that before he did so, that there was no distinction between the fade world and the "real" world.

Did he now? Even if he genuinely believes that, I doubt his recollection. There was distinction between the Fade and the Real even before Solas did his little magic trick. There are a few codices proving that the Fade and the Real were separate before the fall.

As for the Veil, Solas most likely only closed the gaps in the Veil to cut the realities off completely.

The Anchor is described by Dagna to be a key. It can open and close. It can lock. This would suggest Solas had the ability to bring parts of the Veil together, not create it.

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Solas admitted to creating the Veil and explains that before he did so, that there was no distinction between the fade world and the "real" world.

 

Yep and I am betting those veil measuring and strengthening devices were a part of the creation of the Veil, which is why he wanted us to strengthen it. Whether those work in reverse or not, we will see.

 

 

Did he now? Even if he genuinely believes that, I doubt his recollection. There was distinction between the Fade and the Real even before Solas did his little magic trick. There are a few codices proving that the Fade and the Real were separate before the fall.

As for the Veil, Solas most likely only closed the gaps in the Veil to cut the realities off completely.

The Anchor is described by Dagna to be a key. It can open and close. It can lock. This would suggest Solas had the ability to bring parts of the Veil together, not create it.

 

No Grepher, Solas did not do this. At the end of Trespasser, Solas says that he created the Veil and banished the Evanuris forever. He did not say that he joined the Veil.

 

Also, I would like to see the Codices you speak off, because I read the Codex entries a lot and no, I have not encountered such Codices.

 

What the Mark is or is not has no relevance to whether the Veil was unified or created.

[IllustriousT]

Did he now? Even if he genuinely believes that, I doubt his recollection. There was distinction between the Fade and the Real even before Solas did his little magic trick. There are a few codices proving that the Fade and the Real were separate before the fall.

As for the Veil, Solas most likely only closed the gaps in the Veil to cut the realities off completely.

The Anchor is described by Dagna to be a key. It can open and close. It can lock. This would suggest Solas had the ability to bring parts of the Veil together, not create it.

 

Solas: "I sought to set my people free from slavery to would-be gods. I broke the chains of all who wished to join me. The false gods called me Fen'Harel, and when they finally went too far, I formed the Veil and banished them forever. Thus I freed the elven people and, in doing, destroyed their world."

 

Also, here is  video on how Solas describes the world where the Veil does not exist:

 

[RoseLawliet]

Yep and I am betting those veil measuring and strengthening devices were a part of the creation of the Veil, which is why he wanted us to strengthen it. Whether those work in reverse or not, we will see.

 

 

 

No Grepher, Solas did not do this. At the end of Trespasser, Solas says that he created the Veil and banished the Evanuris forever. He did not say that he joined the Veil.

 

Also, I would like to see the Codices you speak off, because I read the Codex entries a lot and no, I have not encountered such Codices.

 

What the Mark is or is not has no relevance to whether the Veil was unified or created.

 

Solas: "I sought to set my people free from slavery to would-be gods. I broke the chains of all who wished to join me. The false gods called me Fen'Harel, and when they finally went too far, I formed the Veil and banished them forever. Thus I freed the elven people and, in doing, destroyed their world."

 

If there are rocks in a river that impede the flow, would we call it a dam? No. If we take those rocks and rearrange them to actually work like a dam, would we call it a dam then? Yes. Would we say whoever rearranged the rocks created the dam? I would.

 

I'm not trying to argue that this is what happened, but since it's been presented as an idea, I thought it was an analogy worth making.

[IllustriousT]

If there are rocks in a river that impede the flow, would we call it a dam? No. If we take those rocks and rearrange them to actually work like a dam, would we call it a dam then? Yes. Would we say whoever rearranged the rocks created the dam? I would.

 

I'm not trying to argue that this is what happened, but since it's been presented as an idea, I thought it was an analogy worth making.

 

I see what you're saying, but if we were to say, instead, that I took a book that had the letters mixed up and rearranged the letters to make sense, would that then make me the author of said book? (Given that it is a book that is already established)

[RoseLawliet]

You wouldn't be the creator of the book, but you would be the author of whatever sentences you wrote. I think all we're talking about is using something that already exists, but changing it just enough to behave as something new.

[IllustriousT]

You wouldn't be the creator of the book, but you would be the author of whatever sentences you wrote. I think all we're talking about is using something that already exists, but changing it just enough to behave as something new.

 

I understand that. I just don't think Solas would take credit for the formation/creation of the Veil if he had only modified it. 

[Reznore57]

The Pre Veil World was bad , it created individuals with godlike power but still normal people at the core.So Godlike beings who suffer bouts of stupidity , vanity and what have you .Current Thedas is still paying the price for that , what with Solas thinking it's fair enough to kill almost everyone to get what he wants.

[Medhia_Nox]

Natural dams form all the time... and yes, they're called dams.  

 

So.. the Veil could have easily existed before Solas made "more Veil." 

Note:  I think the Veil is actually a massive Rite of Tranquility. 

[IllustriousT]

Note:  I think the Veil is actually a massive Rite of Tranquility. 

 

I can see this.

 

It would have to be different than what the Circle uses, since emotions and dreams are still intact (With the exception of dreams and Dwarves). A connection to the fade still exists, and this connection fluctuates as well, which is why mages exist. Do you think that spirits/demons share the same space as the Thedosians and cannot be perceived? That the fade and reality actually are one, but simply cannot be accessed?

[Sah291]

Hmm, if Solas created the Veil, then that means it could have possibly existed in whole or in part before him. Sure. I mean, he knew how to create one.... He got that knowledge from somewhere, whether he took something that already existed and expanded it, or modified it for his own use somehow.

[IllustriousT]

Hmm, if Solas created the Veil, then that means it could have possibly existed in whole or in part before him. Sure. I mean, he knew how to create one.... He got that knowledge from somewhere, whether he took something that already existed and expanded it, or modified it for his own use somehow.

 

Ingredients may have existed, but the whole...possibly not. I did not create the chicken, cow, or corn, but I can make a mean casserole. I am the creator of said casserole, and that casserole is now my creation...from other bits.

 

I did not create casserole from other casseroles though. 

[Medhia_Nox]

The problem is I have... is that we don't even see a whole continent.  

 

We know there's lands beyond Par Vollen... what were those like?  The Kossith dwelt there and they were strong enough to make the Qunari.  We have indications that humans migrated from beyond Par Vollen... were they pushed west by the Kossith?  By the Qunari?  

 

Did they migrate because the Veil popped up and suddenly the world was safer to travel in?  That says a LOT about the pre-Veil world Thedas is on.  If - prior to the Veil - the world was so dangerous that species couldn't migrate (except by Eluvians?) - then clearly it was not the paradise.  

Here's the problem with magical genetics.  If the humans just "popped up" - then what created them? The Maker?  The Kossith?

 

 And if they evolved... then obviously they existed prior to the Veil.  

 

I believe there is, without question, some lie or misrepresentation Solas is perpetrating about the Veil. 

 

@IllustriousT:  However, the IDEA "Cassarole" is not yours.  You cannot add just any ingredients and say... "Cassarole".

 

You are creator of "c"asserole... but not "C"asserole. 

 

This begins a discussion on Platonic Forms which I'd love to have - but it would derail the thread (though, not as much as one might think)

[Sah291]

 
 This begins a discussion on Platonic Forms which I'd love to have - but it would derail the thread (though, not as much as one might think)

No it really wouldn't. There's so much of this presented in the game, in the nature of spirits and demons, Solas' world view, and the Qunari, etc. I think it's intentional on the part of the writers, IMO.

[In Exile]

Hmm, if Solas created the Veil, then that means it could have possibly existed in whole or in part before him. Sure. I mean, he knew how to create one.... He got that knowledge from somewhere, whether he took something that already existed and expanded it, or modified it for his own use somehow.

That's not true. It doesn't make sense. Did Ipads exist before we created them? Of course not. Did we get the knowledge to create them from somewhere? Absolutely not.

[IllustriousT]

 

 

@IllustriousT:  However, the IDEA "Cassarole" is not yours.  You cannot add just any ingredients and say... "Cassarole".

 

You are creator of "c"asserole... but not "C"asserole. 

 

This begins a discussion on Platonic Forms which I'd love to have - but it would derail the thread (though, not as much as one might think)

 

 

Well, everything starts somewhere and the IDEA of cassarole, while not mine in particular, did come about in one way or another.

 

Determining the Pre-Veil world, or where people came from, may need a debate on Platonic forms or the opposing hylomorphism forms, relevant in a Thedas context of course. 

[Dai Grepher]

No Grepher, Solas did not do this. At the end of Trespasser, Solas says that he created the Veil and banished the Evanuris forever. He did not say that he joined the Veil.

I know what he said. That doesn't mean that's what happened.

Also, I would like to see the Codices you speak off, because I read the Codex entries a lot and no, I have not encountered such Codices.

http://dragonage.wik...ntive_Listeners

Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Attentive Listeners

Spoiler

The pages of this book—memory?—show a solemn group of elves in an amphitheater of living wood, entire trees grown into seats and stairs for the listeners to recline on. Two other elves and a spirit of learning are speaking in turn on ways to bend the properties of the material world when casting spells. At the end, the spirit, with the air of a senior lecturer, floats forward and booms in a surprisingly deep voice.

"The unchanging world is delicate: spells of power invite disaster and annihilation. The unchanging world is stubborn: the pull of the earth fiercely resists making fire run like water or stone rise like mist. The unchanging world rings with its own harmony. Listen with fearless hearts, and great works will unfold."

Proves the material world existed separate from the Fade, and magic cast in the real world was affected differently.


http://dragonage.wik..._Forbidden_Ones

Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Exile of the Forbidden Ones

Spoiler

The pages of this book—memory?—show the blazing forms of the Evanuris banishing a howling spirit from the reaches of the Fade that touch their lands. A voice rings out, stern and imperial:

"For abandoning the People in their time of greatest need, for casting aside form to flee to where the Earth could not reach, we declare Xebenkeck and others of her ilk exiled from the lands of the Evanuris. Beware! Their familiarity with shape allows them to travel paths unaided. They may be bound, but only the protection of your gods will fully shield you from their malice. They are Forbidden from the Earth that is our right."

Shows that the Fade touches their lands, and the Earth exists separately. The Earth cannot reach a specified part of the Fade.

There are a few more if you want me to post them. One is about the titans shaking the elvhen structures, and another is about three mages creating something in the Real world.

What the Mark is or is not has no relevance to whether the Veil was unified or created.

Sure it does. The mark manipulates the Veil. The mark came from the orb. The orb held the power Solas used to banish the evanuris. So it could indicate how Solas banished them.

Solas: "I sought to set my people free from slavery to would-be gods. I broke the chains of all who wished to join me. The false gods called me Fen'Harel, and when they finally went too far, I formed the Veil and banished them forever. Thus I freed the elven people and, in doing, destroyed their world."
 
Also, here is  video on how Solas describes the world where the Veil does not exist:

Solas is only talking about his world in that clip. I think Solas assumed that the Crossroads worlds were all there was, and yes those places existed without the Veil. However, the Veil did exist elsewhere, around the Crossroads.

Solas either thinks he created the Veil, or he's just lying about what really happened with the Veil.

If there are rocks in a river that impede the flow, would we call it a dam? No. If we take those rocks and rearrange them to actually work like a dam, would we call it a dam then? Yes. Would we say whoever rearranged the rocks created the dam? I would.

Right, but we wouldn't say that person created the rocks.

Solas merely turned the wheel on the dam, flooding the dragon's place of rest and thus waking it up from dreams. Same case with the Veil. It was being kept at bay outside the Crossroads worlds of the evanuris, until Solas opened the flood gates and let the Veil pour in, which cut the Fade off from the Real and destroyed that which was in the Crossroads.

[Sah291]

That's not true. It doesn't make sense. Did Ipads exist before we created them? Of course not. Did we get the knowledge to create them from somewhere? Absolutely not.

That's not what I mean exactly. If the Veil is some sort of magical spell or barrier (like a rite of tranquility), it's possible it existed in some limited form, repurposed, or alternatively, even a natural phenomenon modified for use. A lot of inventions have occurred that way.

Besides, I'm not saying it must have existed, but that it is possible it could have, or at least the knowledge of how to do it.

The question is what the world was like pre Veil and if mundanes could have existed, and if it has covered the whole entire world of Thedas.. Or just the known world.

[Iakus]

 

 

5) A world where the magically capable oppressed the less magically capable. The Evanuris were extremely powerful mages. How did you think the notion that a mage must lead the Dalish came about ? Additionally, Tevinter, a nation that was built on the bones of ancient Elvhenan, also practice this. Put simply, there was magical apartheid. In the pre-Veil days, it was magically capable oppressing the less magically capable. In the post-Veil days, this is reversed with the exception of Tevinter.

 

 

Thoughts & Comments ?

Consider also the Dalish vallaslin is something from the "good old days".  And it turns out it was a mark of slavery .  Like a brand.

 

And when you think about it, it gets better...

 

Vallaslin is "blood writing" and When Fen'haral freed slaves, he would lift the vallaslin to "break the bonds" of the Evanuris.  This sounds an awful lot like Vallaslin was some kind of blood magic to control the populace.

[In Exile]

Remember that the Tevinter Imperium uses a kind of Lyrium branding that looks suspiciously like vallaslin. It didn't bind Fenris, but it certainly gave him some surreal powers tied to lyrium. I always thought that was part of the origin of vallaslin - the ancient Arlathan elves using it as a kind of brand for their warriors. Now I wonder how that tied in with what the ancient elves had. The issue is that we see Abelas just wearing a tattoo.