I'm really glad this conversation is happening.
Absolutely NO opinion should be made from believing, or disbelieving, Solas.
The truth about his claims must be uncovered before anything can be done to decide what is "best" for the world.
NOTE: Regardless... I'm still against assisting in an apocalypse.
I know what he said. That doesn't mean that's what happened.
http://dragonage.wik...ntive_Listeners
Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Attentive Listeners
Spoiler
Proves the material world existed separate from the Fade, and magic cast in the real world was affected differently.
This does not describe the time period in which these "memories" take place. This memory could be the reaction of the elvhen people to the creation of the Veil and/or their reaction to material world as it exists after the Veil.
http://dragonage.wik..._Forbidden_Ones
Codex entry: Vir Dirthara: Exile of the Forbidden Ones
Spoiler
Shows that the Fade touches their lands, and the Earth exists separately. The Earth cannot reach a specified part of the Fade.
We are not sure what or how "Earth" is defined. Thedas is not on the planet Earth, so we can assume Earth is well...earth, the stone, and in this case where the Titans dwell. Without knowing for sure, because of course...all of this is speculation, but it could be the Fade exists above the Stone, and the Veil created some "middle" like barrier.
There are a few more if you want me to post them. One is about the titans shaking the elvhen structures, and another is about three mages creating something in the Real world.
Titans and Elvhen being at war would be normal, if their worlds were not the same. Dwarves do not have access to the fade, which backs up the theory that Fade is a realm of existence and does not exist everywhere at once or only exists in the minds of those connected to it.
The one thing that I do believe to be true (or at least somewhat true) is the way that the Evanuris came to power, through a war. Powerful mages to generals, to kings, and finally reaching divinity. All because of fear.
The one thing that I do believe to be true (or at least somewhat true) is the way that the Evanuris came to power, through a war. Powerful mages to generals, to kings, and finally reaching divinity. All because of fear.
What makes you believe this?
Another thing I am most curious about is Mythal and her role in the Golden Age of elves. Solas claims that she "was the best of them", the one that cared the most about her people. And yet she was willing to allow the enslavement of her "children", a la Abelas.
Also, what truly marked one to be branded as a slave? Was it simply poverty? I don't think magic alone is enough of a factor to mark one as a slave, because Abelas had magic and yet he was marked. Granted, the marking of the Temple servants might be a more symbolic, spiritual act to symbolize their devotion to Mythal.
@Hellion Rex: Did Abelas have magic... or was the magic Abelas did to the Well of Sorrow more like The Mark?
Does Fenris have magic?
Is Shale a mage?
I believe the ancient elves were branded with vallaslin to give them powers from their god (think D&D clerics before the secular-washing of the RPG)
What makes you believe this?
I don't know. It rings kind of true, at least to me. Or at least, it seems reasonable. Like he said, war would breed fear. The elves would look to leaders to guide. And the leaders grew fat upon their devotion and eventually became gods.
Also, food for thought: I'm wondering if the Ancient Elves made the Evanuris stronger through the belief in their divinity. Because initially, the Evanuris were just mages, and yet they eventually were able to use great acts of magic that defy belief. Solas raising the Veil would be such an example. It's a magic that affects every living being in the world. Where did they get all that power? Was it blood and sacrifice or something else?
@Hellion Rex: Did Abelas have magic... or was the magic Abelas did to the Well of Sorrow more like The Mark?
Does Fenris have magic?
Is Shale a mage?
I believe the ancient elves were branded with vallaslin to give them powers from their god (think D&D clerics before the secular-washing of the RPG)
That's a fair point. It very well could have been abilities granted to him by Mythal and only could really be utilized within the Temple in its defense.
@Hellion Rex: I believe the Evanuris are spirits that took elven form. I believe there's evidence for this claim.
"IF" this is the case... then yes, belief alone would have made them stronger (look at the Fear demon)
Also, food for thought: I'm wondering if the Ancient Elves made the Evanuris stronger through the belief in their divinity. Because initially, the Evanuris were just mages, and yet they eventually were able to use great acts of magic that defy belief. Solas raising the Veil would be such an example. It's a magic that affects every living being in the world. Where did they get all that power? Was it blood and sacrifice or something else?
For any one entity to be worshiped would indeed make that entity more powerful. The Elvhen were products of a realm of existence that does not necessarily follow the same Laws of Nature that our world is guided by. Their power could come from another source, more likely non-corporeal sources.
I think magic ability was shared by all Elvhen, such as immortality, but there would be possibly a system that would form a hierarchy of power. Much like Tevinter actually. Slaves (Elvhen with little Magic) - Magisters(Elvhen with a lot of magic).
@Hellion Rex: I believe the Evanuris are spirits that took elven form. I believe there's evidence for this claim.
"IF" this is the case... then yes, belief alone would have made them stronger (look at the Fear demon)
That's also a very fair assumption, I believe.
Mythal - primordial spirit of justice
Elgarnan - spirit of vengeance
Falon'din - spirit of vanity (based of that elven legend about his vanity)
Andruil - spirit of sacrifice
I'm just totally spitballing based on what traits we know were attached to a given god. That said, the spirits might have been so powerful that they were beyond the simplistic designations we give to modern spiritual entities.
For any one entity to be worshiped would indeed make that entity more powerful. The Elvhen were products of a realm of existence that does not necessarily follow the same Laws of Nature that our world is guided by. Their power could come from another source, more likely non-corporeal sources.
I think magic ability was shared by all Elvhen, such as immortality, but there would be possibly a system that would form a hierarchy of power. Much like Tevinter actually. Slaves (Elvhen with little Magic) - Magisters(Elvhen with a lot of magic).
True, they certainly don't have to play by the normal rules, when it comes to magic.
And I can see your point about the hierarchy. Those with little magic were treated harshly versus those who were strong in the gift.
Yea, what we don't know is the cosmology of Thedas.We are not sure what or how "Earth" is defined. Thedas is not on the planet Earth, so we can assume Earth is well...earth, the stone, and in this case where the Titans dwell. Without knowing for sure, because of course...all of this is speculation, but it could be the Fade exists above the Stone, and the Veil created some "middle" like barrier.
A war between heavenly/sky gods and giants, and banished titans in the underworld... All common themes also.Titans and Elvhen being at war would be normal, if their worlds were not the same. Dwarves do not have access to the fade, which backs up the theory that Fade is a realm of existence and does not exist everywhere at once or only exists in the minds of those connected to it.
Not sure how elven hierarchy was working , besides the Evanuris being on top.
Solas and Felassan talks about nobles , and Felassan even tells a myth about the daughter of a king.
Thing is I have a hard time picturing a nobles faction and a living "gods" faction coexisting peacefully.
There's talks of servants and slavery.
And Elders who would go in uthenera and be almost worshipped.
I imagine age would come into play too , with somewhat immortal beings , there's stuff to think about.
You wouldn't want people to start reproducing like rabbits in a rut when most of the population isn't dying any time soon.
Also I'm not sure you'd want your slaves and servants to get 20.000 years old , not because old age would catch up with them but it's a long enough time to get more than fed up with scrubbing the floor , and plan a rebellion as a hobby on the side.
Not sure your random nobody could go in uthenera , in Masked Empire it seems some noble went to sleep when the veil was created perhaps to survive and the servants decided to slit their throat.They were stucked and doomed , no eeching off of the fade for them.
I somehow imagine the elves had a purging system when it comes to the lower classes , and perhaps everyone was forced to "retire" at one point through different means ("Time for uthenera, Grandpa!" ) except the Evanuris.
This does not describe the time period in which these "memories" take place. This memory could be the reaction of the elvhen people to the creation of the Veil and/or their reaction to material world as it exists after the Veil.
We are not sure what or how "Earth" is defined. Thedas is not on the planet Earth, so we can assume Earth is well...earth, the stone, and in this case where the Titans dwell.
Without knowing for sure, because of course...all of this is speculation, but it could be the Fade exists above the Stone, and the Veil created some "middle" like barrier.
Titans and Elvhen being at war would be normal, if their worlds were not the same. Dwarves do not have access to the fade, which backs up the theory that Fade is a realm of existence and does not exist everywhere at once or only exists in the minds of those connected to it.
That's also a very fair assumption, I believe.
Mythal - primordial spirit of justice
Elgarnan - spirit of vengeance
Falon'din - spirit of vanity (based of that elven legend about his vanity)
Andruil - spirit of sacrifice
I'm just totally spitballing based on what traits we know were attached to a given god. That said, the spirits might have been so powerful that they were beyond the simplistic designations we give to modern spiritual entities.
This is a thought I've had before as well. That the Evanuris were (more or less) "spirits" who were corrupted into "demons" (except Mythal?).
That Andruil was the Goddess of the Hunt, but became a Goddess of Sacrifice. Falon'din was a guide to the dead, but became corrupted, possibly because he came to view killing people en masse as either necessary or helpful in some way. Etc.
I wonder what Sylaise or June did that was so bad.
This is a thought I've had before as well. That the Evanuris were (more or less) "spirits" who were corrupted into "demons" (except Mythal?).
That Andruil was the Goddess of the Hunt, but became a Goddess of Sacrifice. Falon'din was a guide to the dead, but became corrupted, possibly because he came to view killing people en masse as either necessary or helpful in some way. Etc.
I wonder what Sylaise or June did that was so bad.
I can see Elgar'Nan, Andruil and Falon'Din being the bad eggs of the Evanuris but as for the rest, I don't see what terrible things they did as a part of the domain they represented and I never liked the idea that apparently, only Mythal and Fen'Harel were the "decent" members of the pantheon and all the rest were douchebags. That they seemed to be a "credit to their race" by virtue of simply not being douchebags, arrogant, or lustful for power. And all the rest apparently each had a hand in murdering Mythal and thus deserved Fen'Harel's totally righteous wrath. And if he hadn't done that, apparently they would've just destroyed the whole bloody world.
I mean, Sylaise and June were only gods of crafting and domestic stuff. Does that really sound like a path to the dark side? What the f**k did they do?
Modifié par Vit246, 17 mars 2016 - 11:21 .
I can see Elgar'Nan, Andruil and Falon'Din being the bad eggs of the Evanuris but as for the rest, I don't see what terrible things they did as a part of the domain they represented and I never liked the idea that apparently, only Mythal and Fen'Harel were the "decent" members of the pantheon. That they seemed to be a "credit to their race".
@Hellion Rex: I believe the Evanuris are spirits that took elven form. I believe there's evidence for this claim.
"IF" this is the case... then yes, belief alone would have made them stronger (look at the Fear demon)
I like how Solas has a little chuckle when he says that. You just know there's another side to the story.
I want there to be other sides to the story. I want it to not be as black and white as he makes it sound because unambiguous stuff like that would bore me. If I had my way, I would have some of the Evanuris not have had a direct hand in Mythal's murder or any malice towards her, but more like they were bystanders, and Solas was so mad he lumped the rest of them in as guilty as her killers. And to assuage his guilty conscience, he convinced himself they were all the same and he put Mythal on a pedestal as "the best of them all".
Why did Solas and Mythal get to be the only good ones? What made those two so damn special?
I mean, Sylaise and June were only gods of crafting and domestic stuff. Does that really sound like a path to the dark side? What the f**k did they do?
I can see Elgar'Nan, Andruil and Falon'Din being the bad eggs of the Evanuris but as for the rest, I don't see what terrible things they did as a part of the domain they represented and I never liked the idea that apparently, only Mythal and Fen'Harel were the "decent" members of the pantheon and all the rest were douchebags. That they seemed to be a "credit to their race" by virtue of simply not being douchebags, arrogant, or lustful for power. And all the rest apparently each had a hand in murdering Mythal and thus deserved Fen'Harel's totally righteous wrath. And if he hadn't done that, apparently they would've just destroyed the whole bloody world.
I mean, Sylaise and June were only gods of crafting and domestic stuff. Does that really sound like a path to the dark side? What the f**k did they do?
Um, in the case of June, crafting could theoretically extend making weapons of war, which I think is a very strong possibility. He was the armorer of the Evanuris. Hell, he might have even come up with the eluvians, for all we know.
Also, of Sylaise, we have this: "It is Sylaise who gave us fire and taught us how to use it". Maybe she wasn't so much a Prometheus figure (like according to the Dalish) and more of a burn shizz to the ground when she's pissed off kind of goddess. Otherwise, I really don't know how she was screwed up.
Again, all this is spitballing.
Edit: Maybe Sylaise could have been a spirit of rage? Cause of the fire?
Edit the 2nd: As someone else also mentioned, maybe June used a crap ton of slave labor to build weapons or great crafts.
What is the evidence for it? I don't think we've been shown anything at all convincing.
I really don't think there is anything against the possibility of it being true. Granted, it's not my top theory of how this whole thing came to be, but it still bears some merit for me.
At the end of the day, I'm kinda on board with the bare bones of what Solas said happened, and that he just did a crap ton of selective editing when he recounted his tale to us.
I really don't think there is anything against the possibility of it being true. Granted, it's not my top theory of how this whole thing came to be, but it still bears some merit for me.
At the end of the day, I'm kinda on board with the bare bones of what Solas said happened, and that he just did a crap ton of selective editing when he recounted his tale to us.
Cole is evidence of it not being true. What we see Cole come is fundamentally different from what we learn the Evanuris - and the elves - were.
Cole is evidence of it not being true. What we see Cole come is fundamentally different from what we learn the Evanuris - and the elves - were.
I'm sorry, what? Forgive me for being a little slow tonight. Your argument is that Cole's situation (becoming more "human") is evidence that Evanuris could not have been spirits that came to take mortal form?
Ok, if that's what you're saying, that's a fair stance, I don't think you can necessarily take Cole's situation and apply it to everyone else. And the Evanuris might have changed under entirely different circumtances than Cole did.
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