June probably had slaves, and forced them to build unto him and other evanuris great works of architecture and property. Sylaise... what did she do? Discover fire? Or bring it down from the sun or something? Eh, I don't know. Maybe she rejected Solas' romance attempt, or lit his tailcoats on fire.
Okay I'll give you points for June. But as for Sylaise, Ghilan'Nain, and Dirthamen?
I'm sorry, what? Forgive me for being a little slow tonight. Your argument is that Cole's situation (becoming more "human") is evidence that Evanuris could not have been spirits that came to take mortal form?
Ok, if that's what you're saying, that's a fair stance, I don't think you can necessarily take Cole's situation and apply it to everyone else. And the Evanuris might have changed under entirely different circumtances than Cole did.
My argument is that when Cole became more human, he lost the things that defined him as a spirit. His power - to disappear, to take away memories - was stripped away. The Evanuris are supposed to be the greatest of the ancient elvhen, and their power was apparently something unfathomable by modern Thedas. I just think that's not particularly consistent with their being spirits.
I actually think we'll find out the reverse. Not that elves were spirits, but that they weren't, and that some spirits were originally elves. We saw the Baroness become a spirit, for example. I actually think Cole is exactly what he looks: a spirit turned human, and I think that's ironically the origin of all humans.
Okay I'll give you points for June. But as for Sylaise, Ghilan'Nain, and Dirthamen?
Sylaise gave elves fire - maybe something to do with rage and anger?
Ghilan'Nain - known for making different creatures - maybe created warbeasts to use in wars?
Dirthamen - Keeper of Secrets...no clue
I actually think we'll find out the reverse. Not that elves were spirits, but that they weren't, and that some spirits were originally elves. We saw the Baroness become a spirit, for example. I actually think Cole is exactly what he looks: a spirit turned human, and I think that's ironically the origin of all humans.
You're gonna get a kick out of this, but I was literally just rereading some codex files. The Highest One, which was the despair demon in the Temple of Dirthamen, was originally supposed to be the High Priest of the Temple, but was silenced and dismembered by his fellow acolytes.
Also, Forbidden Ones shed their corporeal forms, according to the Codex, and were banished by the Evanuris.
Ok, to say the least, you are right on target with elves turning into spirits.
You're gonna get a kick out of this, but I was literally just rereading some codex files. The Highest One, which was the despair demon in the Temple of Dirthamen, was originally supposed to be the High Priest of the Temple, but was silenced and dismembered by his fellow acolytes.
Also, Forbidden Ones shed their corporeal forms, according to the Codex, and were banished by the Evanuris.
Ok, to say the least, you are right on target with elves turning into spirits.
Seeing what and how Weekes writes, I expect his twist will be a bit more clever, now that I think on it. He'll want to take advantage of what was established in JOH - that spirits can be molded into things, like we see the spirit who "watched" Ameridan's dreamer girlfriend become like her - and leave us debating whether people can ever "become" spirits, or whether they just exert such will on the world that they mold a spirit into a facsimile of themselves. Frankly, I bet that's how Mythal "survived".
I bet that's how Mythal "survived".
How do you figure?
How do you figure?
Flemeth refers to Mythal as a "wisp". Initially, she pitched herself as a mage who became an abomination. If the dying Mythal shaped a spirit into herself - or found some means to retreat as a spirit, but not quite totally pulled it off - then we have exactly the mechanism by which Mythal could "survive" but not exactly survive and yet take over a human mage, and sustain that body over time (as we see Wynne is sustained despite technically "dying").
Flemeth refers to Mythal as a "wisp". Initially, she pitched herself as a mage who became an abomination. If the dying Mythal shaped a spirit into herself - or found some means to retreat as a spirit, but not quite totally pulled it off - then we have exactly the mechanism by which Mythal could "survive" but not exactly survive and yet take over a human mage, and sustain that body over time (as we see Wynne is sustained despite technically "dying").
Oh, gotcha. Makes sense. Given how powerful the Evanuris were, I think she'd have the power to do it. Damn, I wish we could have brought Cole in to meet Flemeth in the Fade...
Oh, gotcha. Makes sense. Given how powerful the Evanuris were, I think she'd have the power to do it. Damn, I wish we could have brought Cole in to meet Flemeth in the Fade...
Given what we see Solas to do him, I'm not sure it would help.
Given what we see Solas to do him, I'm not sure it would help.
True. Even as diminished as she is, she probably could block him like Solas.
Still, it would have been cool lol.
You're gonna get a kick out of this, but I was literally just rereading some codex files. The Highest One, which was the despair demon in the Temple of Dirthamen, was originally supposed to be the High Priest of the Temple, but was silenced and dismembered by his fellow acolytes.
Also, Forbidden Ones shed their corporeal forms, according to the Codex, and were banished by the Evanuris.
Ok, to say the least, you are right on target with elves turning into spirits.
I love the Temple of Dirthamen, because it gives you an idea of what elves would do to a leader they wanted to depose. If you believe that destroying the body of an elf didn't necessarily destroy their spirit (or that they could to an extent shift from one to the other), they couldn't kill them completely if their spirit was too strong, because they'd come back and get revenge. So they had to split them up into pieces and bind them.
It makes me wonder if that's what the Evanuris did to Mythal - only instead of stashing chunks of her spirit in different parts of a temple, maybe they stashed them into, say, seven dragons and buried them deep underground. Maybe she wasn't taking Urthemiel's soul from the OGB if he existed, maybe she was reclaiming part of herself. It would make tons of sense for Solas to be freaked out about bits of Mythal getting destroyed by the Grey Wardens, if he really was her former guardian.
...Don't mind me, I've been plugging this theory ever since the first time I saw it on reddit. 
Okay I'll give you points for June. But as for Sylaise, Ghilan'Nain, and Dirthamen?
I actually think Cole is exactly what he looks: a spirit turned human, and I think that's ironically the origin of all humans.
I want there to be other sides to the story. I want it to not be as black and white as he makes it sound because unambiguous stuff like that would bore me. If I had my way, I would have some of the Evanuris not have had a direct hand in Mythal's murder or any malice towards her, but more like they were bystanders, and Solas was so mad he lumped the rest of them in as guilty as her killers. And to assuage his guilty conscience, he convinced himself they were all the same and he put Mythal on a pedestal as "the best of them all".
Why did Solas and Mythal get to be the only good ones? What made those two so damn special?
Trespasser showed that Solas and Mythal freed the slaves and wanted to fight back against the Evanuris due to the Titan (if the theory is to be believed).
What is the evidence for it? I don't think we've been shown anything at all convincing.
- First, we have the Forbidden Ones.
"For abandoning the People in their time of greatest need, for casting aside form to flee to where the Earth could not reach, we declare Xebenkeck and others of her ilk exiled from the lands of the Evanuris. Beware! Their familiarity with shape allows them to travel paths unaided. They may be bound, but only the protection of your gods will fully shield you from their malice. They are Forbidden from the Earth that is our right."
From this... we know that:
1) "For abandoning the People" - The Forbidden Ones served the People.
2) "casting aside form" - That they had singular forms. It cannot be that they can assume a form because of the lines that follow.
3) "lands of the Evanuris" - why not say "lands of the People"? Or "Arlathen"? Seems a distinction between the elves and the Evanuris. Admittedly can be do to status.
4) "Earth that is our right" - the "Earth" is not the physical soil. Earth is not the name of the planet - so why capitalize it? Earth - I believe is the Titans and lyrium. I believe this means that the Evanuris and the Forbidden Ones both shared in the "right of the Earth" - why share with a group of four spirits? I believe it makes sense if the Evanuris and the Forbidden Ones are the same - meaning spirits.
Solas says he was Solas before he was Falon'Din. Did his parents name him Pride? If they new about Pride demons back then... it would be a really bad name to call your kid. The entire cosmology of Thedas is based off the Fade infecting belief.
BUT, if Solas was a Pride demon... it would make sense. His personality would make sense.
Also, Solas' personality. He is unimaginative. He is unbending. He has "hints" of feeling bad - but he is compelled to simply ignore them to carry out the SAME thing he's been doing for thousands of years. Presumably... fighting the Evanuris. It took him thousands of years to formulate a plan to change the world.
It's funny that he "claims" he's been sleeping in the Fade for THOUSANDS of years... or, maybe he just went home and dwelt in the Fade. And why did his power diminish? We know a spirits power can diminish. We've yet to see a mage lose power outside of Tranquility.
Flemythal - also hasn't changed her song for thousands of years. These creatures are incapable of an original idea. They're either the worst written static characters in the history of literature... or, there's a reason for it.
The very idea the Mythal can possess Flemeth says absolutely that the Evanuris were spirits. We've seen this with Vengeance... and Wynne's faith spirit.
I don't know about "the People" - I believe they were mortals who were enslaved by spirits (the Evanuris, Forgotten Ones and Forbidden Ones).
@Sah291: The thing about the line Solas says about not being a demon... is that if you ask Cole, he considers himself a human during the course of Inquisition. I can't remember where it is and I don't have the time to do the search - but he does say it.
As for Solas lying... he's clearly more than "a mage" or "a spirit/demon" - and you don't act the way he does without believing your better than everyone. I believe the distinction in the line is merely because he would find the terminology of "spirit" to be rather beneath him.
Nope. Most memories were destroyed after the fall. The memory describes things being intact. Also, the Veil was not there to obstruct their observations of the Real, or their interaction with it. So this couldn't have been after the Veil.
Likewise with the memory about the Forbidden Ones. They fled to the furthest edges of the Fade where the earth could not reach. This clearly identifies points of location in relation to each other. It also shows that there was a point where the Earth could reach. Meaning, no Veil to obstruct it.
You sparked my curiosity.
I read up on the Vir Dirthara, and the library was indeed "made with material world and Fade," and without a philosophical debate on defining the "Material world," we can then assume it is in fact Thedas. So what are we looking at then? The Fade | a place between the Fade and the material world - The Crossroads | The material world including the Titans? Is the place where the Crossroads are existing in a different reality? Is it an extension of the Fade? So that brings us back to the beginning - Solas made the Veil but only by extension of the Crossroad world?
Just trying to get a picture here.
@Sah291: The thing about the line Solas says about not being a demon... is that if you ask Cole, he considers himself a human during the course of Inquisition. I can't remember where it is and I don't have the time to do the search - but he does say it.
As for Solas lying... he's clearly more than "a mage" or "a spirit/demon" - and you don't act the way he does without believing your better than everyone. I believe the distinction in the line is merely because he would find the terminology of "spirit" to be rather beneath him.
I agree. I think that simply "a mage" or simply "a spirit/demon" just does not quite define what I think Solas is/or once was, along with all the Evanuris. It could be possible that they were the embodiment of both. A physical form and a spiritual form using the same place - like possession, except it is in their nature and not an external force.
You sparked my curiosity.
I read up on the Vir Dirthara, and the library was indeed "made with material world and Fade," and without a philosophical debate on defining the "Material world," we can then assume it is in fact Thedas.
The real world, yes, where Thedas is located.
So what are we looking at then? The Fade | a place between the Fade and the material world - The Crossroads | The material world including the Titans?
Yes, I think the Crossroads is a mix of the Fade and the Real. I think the Maker, who actually created the Veil, left the world this way so spirits could see the world and learn from it, and mortals could see the Fade and be inspired.
Is the place where the Crossroads are existing in a different reality?
Technically, yes.
Is it an extension of the Fade?
No. It is near the Fade, as Morrigan states in the Crossroads when it is inactive.
So that brings us back to the beginning - Solas made the Veil but only by extension of the Crossroad world?
I doubt it. I think he just discovered a way to close the Crossroads off from the Fade, and thus the Real world as well. When this happened, some parts of Elvhenan were trapped in the Crossroads, some parts fell to the earth, and the structures that were on the earth were cut off from magic, and thus crumbled under their own impossibility in the Real world.
Just trying to get a picture here.
I may be able to help with that.
Warning: High Resolution Image
https://lh3.googleus...lu=w901-h523-no
Cole is evidence of it not being true. What we see Cole come is fundamentally different from what we learn the Evanuris - and the elves - were.
I'm sorry, what? Forgive me for being a little slow tonight. Your argument is that Cole's situation (becoming more "human") is evidence that Evanuris could not have been spirits that came to take mortal form?
Ok, if that's what you're saying, that's a fair stance, I don't think you can necessarily take Cole's situation and apply it to everyone else. And the Evanuris might have changed under entirely different circumtances than Cole did.
Patrick Weekes mentioned Cole's special case in an interview with Biofan on youtube.
Link if you wish to listen to the full interview: http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Aj0m_eQtwXA
But I have the transcript to what he had to say on Cole.
BF: So is what happened with Cole a normal thing for a spirit of compassion, or was it kind of an isolated, special case?
PW: So. I would say it was an isolated, special case. It's not necessarily a one-off event, because we've established that when the Veil is thin spirits can come through, and it's certainly possible for spirits to get confused. A spirit of compassion, like Cole, is one who is more likely to become confused, trying to deal with someone who is in a great deal of pain, and empathizing - actually becoming the person whose pain they're empathizing with... So, I wouldn't say it's something that's likely to happen, or something that is common in a way that we're going to go to very often but it's definitely not a one-off-this-could-only-happen-once event.
My argument is that when Cole became more human, he lost the things that defined him as a spirit. His power - to disappear, to take away memories - was stripped away. The Evanuris are supposed to be the greatest of the ancient elvhen, and their power was apparently something unfathomable by modern Thedas. I just think that's not particularly consistent with their being spirits.
I actually think we'll find out the reverse. Not that elves were spirits, but that they weren't, and that some spirits were originally elves. We saw the Baroness become a spirit, for example. I actually think Cole is exactly what he looks: a spirit turned human, and I think that's ironically the origin of all humans.
It doesn't mean they're actually elves.... they just have the bodies of elves.
Remember, the Forbidden Ones - we are told - originally HAD forms, and then they broke whatever deal it was to keep those forms - and were banished. But it's not like Imshael has any problem looking like a human.
For me, until shown by Bioware (or proof I find convincing) the Evanuris are spirits that either 1) possessed mortals or 2) spirits that took mortal forms - and continued to maintain their powers as spirits revered as gods.
Perhaps they're even "perfect" Abominations (as opposed to the abominations we see in The Broken Circle).
I'm not opposed to them having been elves that took the opposite route and became spirits... but I don't think there's supporting evidence for it (an event that would have taken place before historical records... since we don't have any information about their rise to power).
My argument is that when Cole became more human, he lost the things that defined him as a spirit. His power - to disappear, to take away memories - was stripped away. The Evanuris are supposed to be the greatest of the ancient elvhen, and their power was apparently something unfathomable by modern Thedas. I just think that's not particularly consistent with their being spirits.
I actually think we'll find out the reverse. Not that elves were spirits, but that they weren't, and that some spirits were originally elves. We saw the Baroness become a spirit, for example. I actually think Cole is exactly what he looks: a spirit turned human, and I think that's ironically the origin of all humans.
Everything is still to define since your theory may be right as it may be right the reversal of it.
Solas said that the Evanuris were originally spirits or mages.
Yes, I think the Crossroads is a mix of the Fade and the Real. I think the Maker, who actually created the Veil, left the world this way so spirits could see the world and learn from it, and mortals could see the Fade and be inspired.
That part about Maker creating the Veil is debatable since the Maker's existence is debatable but otherwise all your points are solid.
Retour en haut