129 réponses à ce sujet

[ArcaneEsper]

Sorry to backtrack a bit, but on the subject of "What made the other Evanuris so bad?" For Ghilan'nain, I tend to get the impression that her thing with "experiments" might have been inhumane. Maybe she performed blood magic on her slaves for the sake of research and was especially cruel about it?

I mean nothing supports this but just thought I'd share that I get a crazy scientist vibe from her.

[myahele]

Sorry to backtrack a bit, but on the subject of "What made the other Evanuris so bad?" For Ghilan'nain, I tend to get the impression that her thing with "experiments" might have been inhumane. Maybe she performed blood magic on her slaves for the sake of research and was especially cruel about it?

I mean nothing supports this but just thought I'd share that I get a crazy scientist vibe from her.

Yeah, I agree with this and this is highly possible since their society used slaves too. 

 

i do wonder if the Forgotten Ones truly are forgotten in the sense that memories of them were erased like what Solas, Cole and The Nightmare does, but on a much larger scale?

 

June is heavily suspected to be associate with dwarves, maybe he might even have been dwarf. But yeah, as other's have said, I can see June creating weapons of mass destruction.

 

Dirthamen is heavily associated with Falon'Din (who's blood thirsty/ war monger), so he would have followed whatever Falon'din would have done.

 

Sylaise is the only one that leaves me scratching my head. From what little description we have on her she seems pretty "good" In DAO and DAI she has condex entries saying how people willingly worship her. The only flaw I can think of is one codex entry saying how she's better than the other Pantheon like Her temples being more beautiful than Mythal's, her flame hotter than Elgar'nan (!) and how she crafts are better than June. If anything, she might be more of a ruthless politician in roughly the same vein as Celene.

[Medhia_Nox]

I believe there's every likelihood that the other Evanuris were the good deities (doesn't mean they were never harsh gods) - and that Solas was the Loki, Lucifer, character and caused the elven version of Ragnarok.  

 

I'd LOVE to have Solas force us into a battle with these "evil" deities to find out they were good and imprisoned by Solas so that he could rule the elves (except he screwed that up royally).

[RoseLawliet]

How can the Forgotten Ones be forgotten when we have Dalish Keepers circulating their names in codex entries?

[Medhia_Nox]

@RoseLawliet:  I think it's more that their deeds have been mostly wiped out of record.

[myahele]

The Forgotten Ones seem to still be in existence; it said in DAO that they still whisper to the Dalish in their dreams. That and the Tirashan elves seem to worship them; I do believe we'll learn more and even encounter them in the future game.

 

One of the last things mentioned was that the elves of the Tirashan were acting up. 

[dawnstone]

Sorry to backtrack a bit, but on the subject of "What made the other Evanuris so bad?" For Ghilan'nain, I tend to get the impression that her thing with "experiments" might have been inhumane. Maybe she performed blood magic on her slaves for the sake of research and was especially cruel about it?

I mean nothing supports this but just thought I'd share that I get a crazy scientist vibe from her.

Notes on Methods of Enchantment

Spoiler

The writing on these papers aches to be looked at, shimmering slightly as if under an enchantment. The notes are handwritten, but each letter is as perfectly uniform as from a printing press:

Notes on the first attempt: Improper valences on the bindings woven into the materials led to a catastrophic unraveling. The first batch is lost, but I will have supplies brought in from the same stock to illuminate whether the imperfection is within the materials or the enchantment.
───────

Notes on the second attempt: Elegance eludes me. The aim is to improve the coordination of the body and sharpen the perception of the heart, but grafts do not live long enough to plumb their worth. The current process is ruin. This batch is lost. Begin again.
───────

Notes on the third attempt: Two enchantments whose matrices should have meshed, caught. The combustion caused such damage it broke several previously forged pieces. There is now a resonance between them, however, and light on my thoughts: an enchantment linked in tandem, as the neck turns the head or the wrist twists the hand?
───────

Notes on the fourth attempt: The weave goes smoothly: bound tightly between many items, the stress on the energy produces finer results than a singular enchantment. Using up the last of the stock was well worth it, as I explained to it as a courtesy before final work began. Adjustments to the underlay were a great success, and will allow the recipe to be made with material taken from lesser animals, if the need arises.

Below the letters, possibly in lieu of a signature, is the stamp of a stylized halla head.

Taken together, diagrams and ratios carefully inked at the bottom of the last of these notes could be turned into a schematic that replicates the creation of these artifacts.

 

I'm not saying that these are notes from Ghilan'nain's laboratory, but the fact that they're in the very elfy Trespasser, scattered through places that can only be reached by eluvian, Ghilly was well known for creating monsters and for taking the form of a halla herself, and the notes are signed with a stylized halla - all of this gives the impression that she might have had something to do with them.

 

If we assume these notes are hers, she seems to be talking about "forging" with live flesh, and talks to her ostensibly sentient subjects "as a courtesy", before using them for her experiments. Think about it - the other Evanuris were so terrified of her, to join them she had to destroy some of her creations. Yeah, I don't think Solas is the worst of the bunch by any stretch.

[dawnstone]

Yeah, I agree with this and this is highly possible since their society used slaves too. 

 

i do wonder if the Forgotten Ones truly are forgotten in the sense that memories of them were erased like what Solas, Cole and The Nightmare does, but on a much larger scale?

 

June is heavily suspected to be associate with dwarves, maybe he might even have been dwarf. But yeah, as other's have said, I can see June creating weapons of mass destruction.

 

Dirthamen is heavily associated with Falon'Din (who's blood thirsty/ war monger), so he would have followed whatever Falon'din would have done.

 

Sylaise is the only one that leaves me scratching my head. From what little description we have on her she seems pretty "good" In DAO and DAI she has condex entries saying how people willingly worship her. The only flaw I can think of is one codex entry saying how she's better than the other Pantheon like Her temples being more beautiful than Mythal's, her flame hotter than Elgar'nan (!) and how she crafts are better than June. If anything, she might be more of a ruthless politician in roughly the same vein as Celene.

I think that June probably worked extensively with lyrium, though my basis for this, is the very thin fact that June's vallaslin and the vallaslin that Danarius applied to Fenris have similarities in their designs:

Spoiler

 

So, he could have been creating useful things like eluvians and swords and whatnot, but also turning his slaves or servants into mindless weapons, as well. Going by the very angular background in his mural, which calls back strongly to the design of the Sha-Brytol armors, thaig designs and those giant dwarf statues everywhere, and his anvil, I think he probably had extensive dealings with the dwarves. Which by dealings I mean enslavement, killing, and theft of their enchantment techniques.

[myahele]

I wonder if Spirits were also in servitude to the Elvhen? Not quite forced servitude, since it seems as if they simply did their purpose/ want to "help" ala Cole depending on what kind of spirit they are.

 

It was mentioned in another thread that Solas doesn't comment on Inquistion using wisps (would-be spirits) as a necromance; yet Cole doesn't like it at all. Doing so effectively "kills" the potential for a wisp to be more/ become a spirit

[RoseLawliet]

@RoseLawliet:  I think it's more that their deeds have been mostly wiped out of record.

 Yes, but I was responding to myahele saying they could be forgotten the way Cole or the Nightmare can make people forget, which completely erases all knowledge of them. Names included.

[Hellion Rex]

Now, I'm quite curious about the Forgotten Ones like Gelduraun who denounced the Evanuris in that codex entry from JoH. Also, I wanted to know more about the Forbidden Ones prior to the shedding of corporeal form.

[In Exile]

Now, I'm quite curious about the Forgotten Ones like Gelduraun who denounced the Evanuris in that codex entry from JoH. Also, I wanted to know more about the Forbidden Ones prior to the shedding of corporeal form.

 

Whoever thought calling two totally separate entities this needs a kick in the shins. Anyway, we see people become spirits (or spirit like) in-game. I think people make too much out of the Forbidden One codex re: elves originally being spirits. I don't necessarily disagree with the theory, however, and do think we have proof for it, including: 

 

1) Elves x Non-Elf => Non-Elf. We know spirits mirror the reality around them, and take form based on will. This "fluidity" in their nature may well be a consequence of their being spirits.

2) The Veil affected spirits, "splitting" their nature. This is what we learn happened to the library, to the Fade, and to many elven pocket dimensions. It happened to the elves themselves. If spirits are split apart - and elves are split - that may be proof that they have a unique connection to the Fade or proof of a spirit like origin.

3) Solas is coincidentally "friends" with a spirit of Wisdom/demon of Pride. 

 

Then we have things like how e.g. Mythal survives, and the notion that Flemeth was an abomination. Plenty of weak circumstantial proof. I just don't think the idea of the Forbidden Ones really works when we see at least one person "become" a demon. 

[Medhia_Nox]

@In Exile:  Who do we see become a demon?  

 

I think there's a possibility Bioware said:  "Let's make all these exceptions to our rules so we can seem like a complex cosmology when really it's just an excuse to do whatever we want." 

I think the answers we get will be more arbitrary than many of us hope. 

[myahele]

@In Exile:  Who do we see become a demon?  

 

I think there's a possibility Bioware said:  "Let's make all these exceptions to our rules so we can seem like a complex cosmology when really it's just an excuse to do whatever we want." 

I think the answers we get will be more arbitrary than many of us hope. 

 

Not sure, but Solas' Wisdom spirit friend became a demon and back to a spirit briefly.

 

Then there was Cole was was a demon turned spirit (or was he always bordeline?) In either case, a Spirit turning into a demon and vice-versa is possible.

[In Exile]

@In Exile:  Who do we see become a demon?  

 

I think there's a possibility Bioware said:  "Let's make all these exceptions to our rules so we can seem like a complex cosmology when really it's just an excuse to do whatever we want." 

I think the answers we get will be more arbitrary than many of us hope. 

 

The Baroness. 

[ArcaneEsper]

I wonder if Spirits were also in servitude to the Elvhen? Not quite forced servitude, since it seems as if they simply did their purpose/ want to "help" ala Cole depending on what kind of spirit they are.

 

It was mentioned in another thread that Solas doesn't comment on Inquistion using wisps (would-be spirits) as a necromance; yet Cole doesn't like it at all. Doing so effectively "kills" the potential for a wisp to be more/ become a spirit

 

I think Dorian mentions a practice where spirits being bound to serve is common in Tevinter in banter with Solas. That might possibly be another elven thing they just adopted into their culture.

[Master Warder Z_]

The Baroness. 

 

She was already an abomination long before we arrived, it was just a glamor or something akin to that masking the presence of the demon.

[In Exile]

She was already an abomination long before we arrived, it was just a glamor or something akin to that masking the presence of the demon.

 

No, she became a demon. This is what Justice tells us when we return to the real world from the Fade. She wasn't an abomination. She became a demon.

[Reznore57]

No, she became a demon. This is what Justice tells us when we return to the real world from the Fade. She wasn't an abomination. She became a demon.

 

I never understood the deal with the Baroness , got to say the whole topic of demons , spirits , possession , etc always seemed confusing to me.

 

Anyway if that's true well it seems there's not much difference between a spirit and a creature of flesh , it seems one can move between the two state and it's mostly an act of will (or believing you're a demon or a human)

At least that's the conclusion I'm coming to after Cole .

P. Weekes confirmed Cole isn't one of a kind.

Cole first became something close to human by pure confusion , he choose human or spirit later , but it could also be dependant on what others around him want to see.

The only thing outside of his own perseption and desire influencing his state is the "Old Song" but it seems whatever that is , it just substained him ( no need for food etc with a material body ).

 

Anyway with the talk of "dreams" , and the raw state of the Fade (it's an landscape of apocalypse ) I wonder if the reality in Thedas is nothing but some kind of dream.

I think there's something like this in Hindu religion , Vishnu  is dreaming the world.

[In Exile]

I never understood the deal with the Baroness , got to say the whole topic of demons , spirits , possession , etc always seemed confusing to me.

 

Anyway if that's true well it seems there's not much difference between a spirit and a creature of flesh , it seems one can move between the two state and it's mostly an act of will (or believing you're a demon or a human)

At least that's the conclusion I'm coming to after Cole .

P. Weekes confirmed Cole isn't one of a kind.

Cole first became something close to human by pure confusion , he choose human or spirit later , but it could also be dependant on what others around him want to see.

The only thing outside of his own perseption and desire influencing his state is the "Old Song" but it seems whatever that is , it just substained him ( no need for food etc with a material body ).

 

Anyway with the talk of "dreams" , and the raw state of the Fade (it's an landscape of apocalypse ) I wonder if the reality in Thedas is nothing but some kind of dream.

I think there's something like this in Hindu religion , Vishnu  is dreaming the world.

 

Keep in mind, the Fade (the place) isn't the same thing as the "Fade" as this mystical magical source of... whatever. The Fade always existed, and pre-dates the Veil. This is, coincidentally, what Dai Grepher confuses in his very long posts on the subject. Proof that the Fade existed, which no one contests, is not proof of a Veil. The very likely explanation is that the place we associate with the Fade now is just a pocket dimension where the "Fade" got shoved in. 

[Reznore57]

Keep in mind, the Fade (the place) isn't the same thing as the "Fade" as this mystical magical source of... whatever. The Fade always existed, and pre-dates the Veil. This is, coincidentally, what Dai Grepher confuses in his very long posts on the subject. Proof that the Fade existed, which no one contests, is not proof of a Veil. The very likely explanation is that the place we associate with the Fade now is just a pocket dimension where the "Fade" got shoved in. 

 

? I don't understand what it has to do with my post.

I wasn't talking about the veil here ?

[In Exile]

? I don't understand what it has to do with my post.

I wasn't talking about the veil here ?

 

You say:

 

Anyway with the talk of "dreams" , and the raw state of the Fade (it's an landscape of apocalypse ) I wonder if the reality in Thedas is nothing but some kind of dream.

I think there's something like this in Hindu religion , Vishnu  is dreaming the world.

 

I just think that's not the actual raw state of the Fade. That's a place like the Library - turn up and twisted after the Veil rose, and where Fen'Harel stuffed the "Fade" that permeated throughout the world. Which is also why spirits are struck there for the most part, unless the Fade leaks through. 

[myahele]

Assuming the Fade and Unchanging World existed (how doesn't matter too much)

 

Then I wonder where do the Titans fin in all this? It was said they they "sculpt the world within and without" could this mean they shaped the landscape of both the Unchanging World and the Raw Fade? 

 

I wonder if after doing that they rested and thus Elves eventually came to be and make an empire until one or more of them woke up.

 

Were they the cause of the War that the Evanuris were known for? Or was it something else?

[In Exile]

Assuming the Fade and Unchanging World existed (how doesn't matter too much)

 

Then I wonder where do the Titans fin in all this? It was said they they "sculpt the world within and without" could this mean they shaped the landscape of both the Unchanging World and the Raw Fade? 

 

I wonder if after doing that they rested and thus Elves eventually came to be and make an empire until one or more of them woke up.

 

Were they the cause of the War that the Evanuris were known for? Or was it something else?

Without getting a sense of how the "Unchanging World" related to the "Earth" we see mentioned, and how the Titans actually operate, and how all of this is even related to modern Thedas, we're verging into an area that is likely too speculative for us to do anything meaningful. 

 

As for theories, I think we'll learn that pre-Veil Thedas is basically build on top of the corpses of Titans, whose death caused the land to "bloom", turning those floating and barren rocks we see floating in the ether into the land we see now. Post-Veil Thedas like fundamentally changed somehow into everything being more like our actual world. 

[Reznore57]

Without getting a sense of how the "Unchanging World" related to the "Earth" we see mentioned, and how the Titans actually operate, and how all of this is even related to modern Thedas, we're verging into an area that is likely too speculative for us to do anything meaningful. 

 

As for theories, I think we'll learn that pre-Veil Thedas is basically build on top of the corpses of Titans, whose death caused the land to "bloom", turning those floating and barren rocks we see floating in the ether into the land we see now. Post-Veil Thedas like fundamentally changed somehow into everything being more like our actual world. 

 

Well we have a vague idea how lyrium (Titan's blood) can work.

In some codex a spirit talking with elves says the Earth has its own pull , and there's so much fade magic that can affect it.

A silly example I use is imagine the most powerful mage wanting to turn Thedas into a cheese wheel , well luckily he wouldn't be able to with Titans.

Same way Cassandra and Solas explains Templars powers , they "reinforce" reality negating the power of the fade a mage is channeling.

Although the Seeker case is an headache , they end up with power over lyrium somehow.