129 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Well we have a vague idea how lyrium (Titan's blood) can work.

In some codex a spirit talking with elves says the Earth has its own pull , and there's so much fade magic that can affect it.

A silly example I use is imagine the most powerful mage wanting to turn Thedas into a cheese wheel , well luckily he wouldn't be able to with Titans.

Same way Cassandra and Solas explains Templars powers , they "reinforce" reality negating the power of the fade a mage is channeling.

Although the Seeker case is an headache , they end up with power over lyrium somehow.

 

Cole has a really different explanation for templars (and dwarves) - he says that they reach out for something, so that the magic can't "get in". We know now that this is the Titan. So it's interesting the other read of it is that the Titan makes it "more real". 

[Master Warder Z_]

No, she became a demon. This is what Justice tells us when we return to the real world from the Fade. She wasn't an abomination. She became a demon.

 

Is that what you took from that line? Also that bald bastard can go rot in the ground, anyway he tells of the mage, a blood mage, who has been preforming rituals, one of which placed the populace of the town in the Fade, its obvious that she was possessed or under demon influence and that led to that 'transformation' not a yet never before seen transference from mortality to demon, living beings do not become spirits and vice versa, its imitation at best for both sides.

 

Whatever pet demon she learned from took her over in the real world.

[Ranadiel Marius]

Assuming the Fade and Unchanging World existed (how doesn't matter too much)

Then I wonder where do the Titans fin in all this? It was said they they "sculpt the world within and without" could this mean they shaped the landscape of both the Unchanging World and the Raw Fade?

I wonder if after doing that they rested and thus Elves eventually came to be and make an empire until one or more of them woke up.

Were they the cause of the War that the Evanuris were known for? Or was it something else?

Heavy speculation incoming!

My thoughts on this is that the Unchanging World is an artificial construct made by the Evanuris by using sleeping and or dead Titans. The world is unchanging due to the lyrium from the Titans having some sort of anti-fade effect which stabilizes the world around it (possibly the will of a Titan overpowering the will of lesser creatures?).

I personally doubt the war of ascension for the Evanuris was against the Titans. My money is it being against the Sun (w/e that turns out to be).

The real question in my mind is, assuming I am on the right track, why did the Evanuris feel the need to build the Unchanging World? My best guess would be to use as a prison for the "Sun," but there are admittedly problems with the time line in that case. Also I feel like the Sun is also likely in the Oil City, so I dunno.

P.S. Anyone who is thinking of shooting down my idea based on mages using lyrium, they use lyrium to manipulate the Veil which did not exist during the creation of the Unchanging World meaning it was likely unnecessary back then. I suspect that the Veil is based on Titans or lyrium since Templars use it to "reinforce reality," so mages having to use lyrium to manipulate the Veil makes sense.

[IllustriousT]

I am starting to see a pattern the more I read everyone's thoughts on the matter, each one being fascinating and additive to the any theories.

 

Spirits, representations of the mystical and non-corporeal, reside in the Fade that surrounds the world where Thedas resides, like the layers of atmosphere. The world where Thedas now exists consists of the material world, denser material, representations of the physical and corporeal reside. Since these emanate different energy, a balance between the two must exist for the energy to be exchanged and an equilibrium to exist. This space is where the Elvhen lived, both spirit and physical, connected to both the Fade and the Material world. In this space, they built cities and thrived, studied the Fade and the Physical. 

 

During the civil war among the Elvhen, the Evanuris and the Forgotten ones, used the Fade and the Physical to corrupt and "blight" their world. Solas created the Veil to save the world, because of the intense corruption. He felt the only way to accomplish that was to destroy the world of equilibrium, stopping all balance of energy distribution among the Fade and the Physical world. He separated the Evanuris, banishing them to Fade - possibly with all of Arlathan (black city?), but since the balance was destroyed, Elvhenan could no longer exist, and the remaining Elvhen were forced to live in space without this exchange of energies, now the world of Thedas. The only way to move among the ruins of Elvhenan is through the original roadways, the Eluvians, but these Eluvians lead also to old Arlathan, which is how Tamlen was corrupted. 

 

Speculation...obviously. 

 

Also, The space were Thedas now exists, would be susceptible to effusion, since it can be weakened/strengthened. This would explain why magic can exist and how blights exist - leakage.

[Iakus]

Assuming the Fade and Unchanging World existed (how doesn't matter too much)

 

Then I wonder where do the Titans fin in all this? It was said they they "sculpt the world within and without" could this mean they shaped the landscape of both the Unchanging World and the Raw Fade? 

 

I wonder if after doing that they rested and thus Elves eventually came to be and make an empire until one or more of them woke up.

 

Were they the cause of the War that the Evanuris were known for? Or was it something else?

Well the elvhen referred to the titans as the "pillars of the earth"  It may be that they are the ones who sustain the world, shape it, and maintain it's continued existence.  

 

Given that, dwarven innate resistance to magic and possession, and the fact that lyrium fuels templar anti-magic powers, they may be "anti-spirits" or even anti-Fade.  While the fade is mutable and ever-changing, the titans represent permanence and sustainability.

 

As such, the Evanuris hunting titans may have endangered the very existence of the world, prompting Fen'harel to banish them.  

[Medhia_Nox]

Well the elvhen referred to the titans as the "pillars of the earth"  It may be that they are the ones who sustain the world, shape it, and maintain it's continued existence.  

 

Given that, dwarven innate resistance to magic and possession, and the fact that lyrium fuels templar anti-magic powers, they may be "anti-spirits" or even anti-Fade.  While the fade is mutable and ever-changing, the titans represent permanence and sustainability.

 

As such, the Evanuris hunting titans may have endangered the very existence of the world, prompting Fen'harel to banish them.  

 

And THIS is why I think Solas is a liar. 

 

We know he served Mythal... we know Mythal killed a Titan.  And we know Flemeth hates the world... she says so in DA:O.  "THAT is between me, and the world." She says.  Taken in this context it suggests a whole different meaning when the Warden questions her.   

 

I think Mythal and he want to open the Veil so they can get their power back so they can conquer the "Earth that is their right".

 

Part of it is a "want" - but I think it's not unbelievable to suggest that the other Evanuris weren't "evil" like he claims.  They wanted to stop Mythal and Solas from destroying the world... so they killed Mythal and Solas trapped them with the Veil instead of losing the war.  

[In Exile]

Solas never pretended he was always a rebel. I think people misread him in that way.

[Andromelek]

And THIS is why I think Solas is a liar. 
 
We know he served Mythal... we know Mythal killed a Titan.  And we know Flemeth hates the world... she says so in DA:O.  "THAT is between me, and the world." She says.  Taken in this context it suggests a whole different meaning when the Warden questions her.   
 
I think Mythal and he want to open the Veil so they can get their power back so they can conquer the "Earth that is their right".
 
Part of it is a "want" - but I think it's not unbelievable to suggest that the other Evanuris weren't "evil" like he claims.  They wanted to stop Mythal and Solas from destroying the world... so they killed Mythal and Solas trapped them with the Veil instead of losing the war.

That's something I don't get, why would Flemeth try to help Urthemiel, someone seemingly shows to be concerned on the matter of Titans?

Also I don't think Solas completely lied on the matter of the Evanuirs being evil, perhaps not all of them, but Andruil and Falon Din dropped a lot of proofs that they were genuine bastards.

[myahele]

We have an idea about Titans and their potential importance to the world, but what about dragons? Just like Elves, current dragons aren't what they used to be back in the days of Arlathan or even further back

 

 

 

Legends speak of a place where dragons go to die. In the far south, in the lands of the barbarian tribes, it is said that a dragon at the end of her days lies down and allows the bitter cold to take her.

It is not just a legend! I have seen Drake's Fall with my own eyes, the ancient bones of these grand beasts piled atop one another. I felt the power that suffused this place and knew the Imperium would claim it.

We built a city on the bones. We delved deep into the earth, collecting what remained of the primordial dragons who were so like our Old Gods. With these bones we created staves for ourmagisters, armour for our warriors, and crowns for our archons. We fashioned phylacteries to hold our blood and sarcophagi to hold our bodies, and prayed they would make us immortal.

 

It's also been stated that Great/ Ancient Dragons are different from (albeit similar) to High Dragons. If anything, Old Gods might be what remains of those Primordial Dragons.

 

In the Comics, Yavana says "the blood of dragons is the blood of the world"

 

Lastly, a Tevinter magister using Great Dragon Blood (via Calenhad descendant) was able to control large part of the fade/ demons and even says if the Ancient Magister ohad Great Dragon blood they would've achieved "godhood"

 

I wonder could Great Dragons have been hunted down to near extinction by the Elvhen until Mythal stopped them? Could the Sun that Elgar'nan defeated might have been symbolic of Dragons? If so since she's known as "protector of sun (dragons) and earth (titan)" then I can kinda see why she was murdered. She prevented them from sources of power.

 

Anyways, it is interesting that Titans are sleeping as well as most Great Dragons until recently.

[Iakus]

And THIS is why I think Solas is a liar. 

 

We know he served Mythal... we know Mythal killed a Titan.  And we know Flemeth hates the world... she says so in DA:O.  "THAT is between me, and the world." She says.  Taken in this context it suggests a whole different meaning when the Warden questions her.   

 

I think Mythal and he want to open the Veil so they can get their power back so they can conquer the "Earth that is their right".

 

Part of it is a "want" - but I think it's not unbelievable to suggest that the other Evanuris weren't "evil" like he claims.  They wanted to stop Mythal and Solas from destroying the world... so they killed Mythal and Solas trapped them with the Veil instead of losing the war.  

Except she also says "Mythal was betrayed as I was betrayed, as the world was betrayed"  She wants justice, and is perhaps a bit unhinged.  But doesn't seem particularly power-hungry.  

 

And while Solas seems to respect Mythal, she was of the Evanuris and he was not.  He never served, he rebelled.

 

I think that Mythal discovered something about the titans that made her regret killing them.  Perhaps she discovered they were critical to the world's continued existence?  Thus why the tunnels were collapsed.  Perhaps she was even tricked into killing them.  By Andruil, perhaps?  

[Donquijote and 59 others]

I love the Temple of Dirthamen, because it gives you an idea of what elves would do to a leader they wanted to depose. If you believe that destroying the body of an elf didn't necessarily destroy their spirit (or that they could to an extent shift from one to the other), they couldn't kill them completely if their spirit was too strong, because they'd come back and get revenge. So they had to split them up into pieces and bind them.

 

It makes me wonder if that's what the Evanuris did to Mythal - only instead of stashing chunks of her spirit in different parts of a temple, maybe they stashed them into, say, seven dragons and buried them deep underground. Maybe she wasn't taking Urthemiel's soul from the OGB if he existed, maybe she was reclaiming part of herself. It would make tons of sense for Solas to be freaked out about bits of Mythal getting destroyed by the Grey Wardens, if he really was her former guardian.

 

...Don't mind me, I've been plugging this theory ever since the first time I saw it on reddit.

The old gods seem to be powerful entities on their own i don't believe that they are just  pieces of Mythal otherwise she would came across as a DBZ character.

[Andromelek]

We have an idea about Titans and their potential importance to the world, but what about dragons? Just like Elves, current dragons aren't what they used to be back in the days of Arlathan or even further back
 

 
It's also been stated that Great/ Ancient Dragons are different from (albeit similar) to High Dragons. If anything, Old Gods might be what remains of those Primordial Dragons.
 
In the Comics, Yavana says "the blood of dragons is the blood of the world"
 
Lastly, a Tevinter magister using Great Dragon Blood (via Calenhad descendant) was able to control large part of the fade/ demons and even says if the Ancient Magister ohad Great Dragon blood they would've achieved "godhood"
 
I wonder could Great Dragons have been hunted down to near extinction by the Elvhen until Mythal stopped them? Could the Sun that Elgar'nan defeated might have been symbolic of Dragons? If so since she's known as "protector of sun (dragons) and earth (titan)" then I can kinda see why she was murdered. She prevented them from sources of power.
 
Anyways, it is interesting that Titans are sleeping as well as most Great Dragons until recently.

Indeed in one of the codex found in the Temple of Mythal it was said that Andruil forced another goodness to destroy a lot of species but Dragons since she enjoyed hunting them, and while we know that High Dragons were drove near to extinction by the Pentaghast, we don't know why the Great Dragons were put to sleep, nor who did it, and while Titan's blood has anti-magic properties, Dragon's blood seems rather to boost it.

[Shechinah]

And while Solas seems to respect Mythal, she was of the Evanuris and he was not.  He never served, he rebelled.

 

I seem to have missed something. Is it speculation or stated that Solas was not a part of the Evanuris?
 

[Medhia_Nox]

@Iakus:  Woah... how do we know Solas isn't one of the Evanuris?  

 

We certainly know he's a god of the elves... is this another thing "Solas told us"? 

 

As far as why the tunnels were collapsed... it's because they released what sounds suspiciously like the darkspawn.

 

Also... why, in the Inquisition cutscene... does she call Solas "Dread Wolf"... was it just poor writing?  She didn't sound like she was being sardonic to me. She sounded somewhat menacing... and a little sad.  If his name is Solas... why wouldn't she call him that?  If she was his ally... why would she refer to him with the title his enemies called him as an insult?  

 

It's like a good friend calling Frank Castle... "Punisher" AFTER he's given up being the Punisher because all his enemies are gone. 

 

Anyway... we can invent reasons why Flemethythal and Solas are good... or bad... or just idiots... it's frustrating.  I enjoy talking about this stuff... but ultimately think it's a pointless waste of time simply because too much misinformation has been given and it really just depends on waiting to hear from the writers. 

[Shechinah]

http://vignette1.wik...=20150922074958

I still cannot help but giggle at how it looks like Solas drew himself like a fair maiden running through fields of flowers. Especially since Belle's musical reprise from the Beauty and Beast film plays in my head when I see it; "I want much more than this provincial life!"

 

I know it is likely not the intended image and it is likely not even be Solas who painted it but it's still just so amusing to me.

[Shechinah]

Also... why, in the Inquisition cutscene... does she call Solas "Dread Wolf"... was it just poor writing?  She didn't sound like she was being sardonic to me. She sounded somewhat menacing... and a little sad.  If his name is Solas... why wouldn't she call him that?  If she was his ally... why would she refer to him with the title his enemies called him as an insult?  

 

Solas claims Fen'harel was an insult he took as a badge of pride so she may have been referring to him by the name he was commonly called and known by.

 

Also, Flemeth also has a sense for dramatic scenes.
 

[rapscallioness]

Hmm. The tale of the Forbidden Ones is interesting. I'm assuming the Time of the People's greatest need" was during the war with the Titans? So, maybe the Forbidden Ones shed their form and returned to a spirit world because they could see that the Evanuris were Falling. As in becoming increasingly intoxicated by the heady brew that is corporeal existence. And succumbing more and more to these powerful sensations.

 

Solas talks about how current Thedas is like walking amongst the Tranquil--ofc meaning that their connection to the Fade is severed for the most part. Yet, I feel the term tranquil would suit the spirits better because they're the ones that live in this static state of being. One note. One tone. It is not until they brush up against the corporeal world and its inhabitants that they come to know pure, uncut emotion; and it overwhelms them. Much like the way Cass describes when a Tranquil "wakes up". She says they lose all control of their emotions. They become erratic and cannot focus. It's overwhelming.

 

I wonder this because reading a codex from the Dead Hand puzzle place, it shares the story of how Falon'Din became the guide of the dead. He and Dirthamen are just skipping around, smelling the flowers, listening to the trees, helping old dying deer and all that. They never knew sorrow at that time. It was all bliss.

 

What changed? We can tell from this codex that it was from early days of Evanuris because Falon'Din was just becoming the Dead Guide.  All I can think is that the allure of corporeal experience eventually entangled them. Or could they're time in Form have slowly started to disrupt their finely tuned connection with the Fade (like Cole), and so they looked for something else to aid them--lyrium. And felt they needed all that lyrium in order to regain that level of power.

 

I also wonder about this codex: The Raising of Sonallium--(pulled from DA Wikia):

 

"The pages of this book—memory?—describe a heated argument between a group of well-dressed elves inside an elaborately arched pavilion on an island floating in a void. In the distance, haloed by a blizzard of light, thousands of elves are maintaining an elaborate magical ritual that pulls raw essence from the Fade, funneled into a sphere in the air. Through the lens of the sphere can be seen a world of indigo waterfalls and rust-red jungles, and a temple palace so frescoed and cleverly carved, it is a masterpiece in itself.

The well-dressed elves' shouting grows so loud, it can be heard over the magic. One leaps at another, howling and pulling out a knife burning with prismatic flame.

"Architects of the Grand Sonallium (a gift from Blessed Sylaise to Clever June as thanks for a great favor) in friendly debate over the color of the palace's roof trim."

 

Besides the fact that these people were leaping at each other--howling! and trying to shank each other with burning prismatic blades, I'm wondering what world they're observing? The one with the rust red jungles and indigo waterfalls? And are they able to go through this sphere in order to decorate the roof trim? Or...what's happening here?

[Iakus]

@Iakus:  Woah... how do we know Solas isn't one of the Evanuris?  

 

We certainly know he's a god of the elves... is this another thing "Solas told us"? 

 

It fits what is known by the Dalish, and by the stuff uncovered in Tresspaser.  And Solas has generally been one to lie more by omission than telling straight-up untruths.

 

Do we know this for a fact?  No.  But the pieces, for now, seem to fit.

 

 

 

As far as why the tunnels were collapsed... it's because they released what sounds suspiciously like the darkspawn.

 

  That is certainly one possibility.

 

And given Mythal's involvement in removing the corruption from Andruil from hunting in the Void, preventing further corruption would be in character for her.

 

 

 

Also... why, in the Inquisition cutscene... does she call Solas "Dread Wolf"... was it just poor writing?  She didn't sound like she was being sardonic to me. She sounded somewhat menacing... and a little sad.  If his name is Solas... why wouldn't she call him that?  If she was his ally... why would she refer to him with the title his enemies called him as an insult?
It's like a good friend calling Frank Castle... "Punisher" AFTER he's given up being the Punisher because all his enemies are gone.
 

She did sound sad.  Though no more menacing than she usually does.  Why did she call him "Dread Wolf"?  In the end, it was to tell us that yes Solas is the Dread Wolf.  But perhaps also because she knew that Solas was going to take up that name again.  He was once again going to rebel against the authorities of Thedas.

 

 

Anyway... we can invent reasons why Flemethythal and Solas are good... or bad... or just idiots... it's frustrating.  I enjoy talking about this stuff... but ultimately think it's a pointless waste of time simply because too much misinformation has been given and it really just depends on waiting to hear from the writers.

 

But isn't that part of the fun of playing Dragon Age games?  

[Iakus]

I seem to have missed something. Is it speculation or stated that Solas was not a part of the Evanuris?
 

He states that he was not one of the Evanuris, and in fact led a rebellion against them.  Over time, Fen'harel (as the Evanuris called him) became known as a trickster god of rebellion.

[myahele]

The timeline is iffy, but didn't Solas rebel after Mythal's murder?

 

Anyways, Fen'Harel means something differently now than it did back then. There's a codex entry saying how the root word for "harel" originally meant rebel now it means traitor to one's kin.

 

Not only that, but Flemeth specifically calls him Dread Wolf

[In Exile]

I'm not so sure about the trickster part. That seems to have come later, by the Dalish. The sources we get about him suggest rebelliousness was what he was associated with by his contemporaries. Keep in mind though that he implies that he wasn't simply a rebell and that its not necessarily right to think of him that way.

[In Exile]

The timeline is iffy, but didn't Solas rebel after Mythal's murder?

Anyways, Fen'Harel means something differently now than it did back then. There's a codex entry saying how the root word for "harel" originally meant rebel now it means traitor to one's kin.

Not only that, but Flemeth specifically calls him Dread Wolf

Depends on what we make of the myths. For example, the theory that the early meeting between Shartan and Andraste is actually a coopted story about Solas and Flemeth meeting suggests that he was a rebellious figure before her death.

[rapscallioness]

Okay, so I have a tendency to think of Evanuris as All Ancient Magic-y Elves. However, it may be more precise to see Solas a a part of a hierarchy with the Evanuris being on top. Solas still being an Ancient Magic-y elf, but not an Evanuris per se.

 

.

[Iakus]

Okay, so I have a tendency to think of Evanuris as All Ancient Magic-y Elves. However, it may be more precise to see Solas a a part of a hierarchy with the Evanuris being on top. Solas still being an Ancient Magic-y elf, but not an Evanuris per se.

 

.

The Evanuris was the ruling body of the elves.  the leaders of some war who ended up becoming rulers, then "gods" of the elves.

 

Solas may have been the equivalent of a Tok-ra to their Goa'uld

[rapscallioness]

So, this Pre-Veil world sounds pretty much just like the one we have now. Corruption; greed; lust for power; slavery; betrayal; murder.  Solas should feel right at home in modern Thedas. We even have magic just not SuperDuperAwesome magic like Pre-Veil.