266 réponses à ce sujet

[wright1978]

Above all, I don't want to save the status quo. I want change, as radical, as large-scale and as complete as I can imagine. I don't care if the outcome will be non-canon and I'll never see it continued in a sequel. I want a story that's more interesting, and more varied, than being someone's or something's hero. Because I'm tired of being that. Utterly fed up.

Comments welcome. It's why I'm posting this after all...

 

Personally i have to say i'm not in favour of massive radical change. I'm worried the next game will revolve round reforming Tevinter, which i say i'm very resistant to.

I'd much prefer a protagonist who can express his/her preference and influence things at a much more micro level but not rip apart the macro establishment.

[CoM Solaufein]

Why not play evil? This game is a good example of where you could if the designers were to take an evil route. One example would be a Dalish elf who hates shems. Elves of all races have a grudge to bear after all. You put on a false smile and "play the game" just like an Orlesian would. You agree to lead the Inquisition for your own personal power even though you pretend to do it for the greater good. Be false friends with the shems in your party and the soldiers under you. Towards the end you find out what Solas is up to and join him in his cause.

Why can't designers give you more evil options or play evil? People get tired of playing the goodie two shoes type.

[SonnyKohler]

So play a different game, and probably not one made in the last few years.  They just don't allow the same kind of nasty RP that they used to.

 

Bethesda still allows dark game-play in their TES universe, although, apparently, not so much in their Fallout universe (as evidenced by 4).

 

I've never been one to play dark myself, but I have noticed that all that seems to come out (particularly in this genre) in recent years is "hero" based.  You can't really be the bad guy.

 

It's actually a little sad.

[Catilina]

So play a different game, and probably not one made in the last few years.  They just don't allow the same kind of nasty RP that they used to.

 

Bethesda still allows dark game-play in their TES universe, although, apparently, not so much in their Fallout universe (as evidenced by 4).

 

I've never been one to play dark myself, but I have noticed that all that seems to come out (particularly in this genre) in recent years is "hero" based.  You can't really be the bad guy.

 

It's actually a little sad.

 

And the "evil" are not simple? I think: it is.  

[Witch Cocktor]

Why not play evil? This game is a good example of where you could if the designers were to take an evil route. One example would be a Dalish elf who hates shems. Elves of all races have a grudge to bear after all. You put on a false smile and "play the game" just like an Orlesian would. You agree to lead the Inquisition for your own personal power even though you pretend to do it for the greater good. Be false friends with the shems in your party and the soldiers under you. Towards the end you find out what Solas is up to and join him in his cause.

Why can't designers give you more evil options or play evil? People get tired of playing the goodie two shoes type.

Why on earth would Solas take you with him lmao.

[Captain Wiseass]

I'm interested in what would constitute rational self interest, in your opinion

Sociopathy, I'm guessing.

 

*reads down*

 

Oh, look, I was right.

[Wulfram]

Rationally self interested people would look at the odds faced by a CRPG protagonist and get another job.

I don't think the protagonist in DAO or DA2 has to particularly care about other people. Though it varies a bit depending on the origin in DAO - a Human or Dwarf noble can easily be acting out of desire for status and the opportunity for revenge, but a Dalish seems like they have little reason to stick around aside from a sense of duty or a desire to do good.

[vbibbi]

Rationally self interested people would look at the odds faced by a CRPG protagonist and get another job.
 

[IllustriousT]

I can't even do an evil play-through of any of Bioware's games...it's just against my nature. I begin with this "Yea, you're going down," attitude that ends in tears and apologizes. I just can't be evil...I can be indifferent which at times still has dire consequences, but purposefully evil...nope.

 

Oh, there was that one time in ME2 that I knocked a guy out of a window...that was a funny renegade moment, I will keep that one. 

 

If we couldn't play as a hero, even on a smaller scale, then nothing good would happen. It would leave me with that feeling that I had at the end of the last Game of Thrones season or the mission with Hawke's mother. "When will good stuff happen or are we all destined to be doomed?!" 

 

Just saying.

[SonnyKohler]

And the "evil" are not simple? I think: it is.

Not sure what you mean, but I hope you understand what I'm saying.  It seems to be a trend that everything is "hero" oriented these days in this sort of game.  While I don't usually play nasty, I always enjoyed playing my serial killer argonian in Skyrim and still play him sometimes.  Or Fallout3 or NV you could just play as a horrible person.  It just doesn't seem to be an option other than sort of annoying lately.

[RoseLawliet]

"In normal times, evil would be fought by good. But in times like these, well... it should be fought by another kind of evil."

-The Chronicles of Riddick

 

If that quote describes anything, it should describe facing down Solas. Unfortunately, I can see BioWare deciding that the PC would be Aereon and the point of the game is tracking down a Riddick NPC to do most of the fighting for us.

[Sah291]

I don't see Bioware writing a villian protagonist anytime soon... But I wouldn't mind more colorful and varied MCs, definitely. It's not just antagonists, but at times the companions can be more interesting, and that can be a problem. It's not just in Bioware games though, I've noticed it in some other series as well. I know part of it is striking the right balance between a set protagonist and how much we can customize, choose, etc.

[Realmzmaster]

The protagonist will always be the hero unless the game starts off with the protagonist as the antagonist, Wizardry IV had the gamer playing as the evil archmage Werdna. Werdna was the wizard that the hero party defeated in Wizardry I. The goal was for Werdna to break out of his prison, regain his power along the way and make it back to civilization. Along the way good parties would descend into the prison to stop him.

 

Games where the gamer has to create a character where the charcter saves the world will always have that character seen as the hero. Simply because it is in the self interest of the protagonist to save the world unless there is someway for him/her to get off of it.

 

A lesser evil defeating a greater evil will be seen as the hero..

 

The description of the Dwarf noble in the Keep has him/her described as a ruthless person who let nothing stand in the way of defeating the Blight. That dwarf noble is still seen as a hero.

[Schizya]

This is something I've been feeling for quite some time. In short, the way Bioware treats its protagonists, I increasingly don't want to play them as heroes any more. It has left so much dark emotion in me that I want little else from them now but the ability to act that out in a game. In Trespasser you lost your arm, your cool magical extra and you lost against three of your four opponents. In the ME trilogy, you died for outcomes that weren't worth it. No more, I say.

And while I was thinking that, I realized how interesting, how different it could be to play a darker character in the first place, if written right, and no, I'm not talking of the usual caricature of evil we tend to get in our stories, but about a character whose main motiviation is *rational* self-interest. In stories I read, I often find the antagonists more interesting than the protagonists, because they aren't restricted in their presentation by the hero template and have more varied motivations than the hero protagonists. At least if they're presented as sane and rational.

So here's what I'd like to see in Bioware's next game: the ability to play a character whose main motivation is rational self-interest, and who doesn't care overmuch about morals or others' wellbeing, and even less about saving the magical order or any group in which they wouldn't have a natural interest. Above all, I don't want to save the status quo. I want change, as radical, as large-scale and as complete as I can imagine. I don't care if the outcome will be non-canon and I'll never see it continued in a sequel. I want a story that's more interesting, and more varied, than being someone's or something's hero. Because I'm tired of being that. Utterly fed up.

Comments welcome. It's why I'm posting this after all...

 

I'm with you on this. I also often like antagonists more for some reason, but they are rarely well written.

 

I would like to play an anti-hero of sorts, someone who does "evil" things, or make bad decisions not because "I'm evil muahahaha", but because they have little choice for example (lesser of two evils sort of thing).

 

Sadly, DAI didn't allow us to be even a liitle bit ruthless, or selfish, or just mean at least. My very first character, for example, was going to be an elven mage, who uses his position as an inquisitor to do stuff for elves. The only remotely "evil" option for him was to allow Celene to be killed, and put Briala in charge. And it was absolutely irrational imo, because why whould you do that, if your job is to save Celene. And so on.

 

An actually good rational 'evil' choice I remember - was in ME3, when you kill Mordin, because you don't want him to cure the genophage. I really loved it.

[Ieldra]

My advice , play Fallout New Vegas.

I did. It's one of my favorite games. And it's way better at making actual roleplaying possible and integrating game-mechanical traits into character interaction than the typical Bioware game. It's  just lacking in presentation, and of course it doesn't have a voiced protagonist. That means no "I don't know my own mind"-paraphrasing, but also, well, no voice, and I've come to like voiced protagonists.

[thats1evildude]

Despite my user name, I've always found playing evil protagonists rather wearying. And yes, that includes "self-interested evil" as opposed to "chaotic evil."

You get to have a few laughs at someone else's expense, but it's not very fulfilling.

[Arcana scribo]

once I got an idea that it would be fun, to infiltrate among agents of Fen'harel to break Solas plans from inside, or help inquisitor to change his mind...but it would be impossible unless you are playing an elf. I don’t think he has agents from other races...doh. But in general I would like more spying, manipulating, not playing with open cards.

[MattH]

I think you could play the warden and hawke with moral ambiguity and selfishness.

The Inquistor however was definitely written as the hero, hopefully the odd one out in DAs protags.

[Secret Rare]

Darkness has the quality of being powerfully and mysteriously attractive or fascinating?

To me is just a synonym of aloofness towards the world,its nature and themselves

I wouldn't like to play a PC filled with such detachment from others and the inner beauty of the world.

[Ieldra]

Despite my user name, I've always found playing evil protagonists rather wearying. And yes, that includes "self-interested evil" as opposed to "chaotic evil."

It's nice now and then to have a few laughs at someone else's expense, but it's not very fulfilling.

I used to feel the same way, but I'm tired of games that make me lose and insinuate I should like it because "good" means "sacrifice". At least, if I'm self-interested and lose, I can legitimately hate it.

[BaaBaaBlacksheep]

I think they should set up to be good, evil, shades of gray, black-and-white, or neutral and have the events play out based on your choices and how it impacts the story as a whole. I think they can pull it off if they decide to try something different.

[Ieldra]

Darkness has the quality of being powerfully and mysteriously attractive or fascinating?

To me is just a synonym of aloofness towards the world,its nature and themselves

I wouldn't like to play a PC filled with such detachment from others and the inner beauty of the world.

"We are as forlorn as children lost in the woods. When you stand in front of me and look at me, what do you know of the griefs that are in me and what do I know of yours. And if I were to cast myself down before you and weep and tell you, what more would you know about me than you know about Hell when someone tells you it is hot and dreadful? For that reason alone we human beings ought to stand before one another as reverently, as reflectively, as lovingly, as we would before the entrance to Hell." -- Franz Kafka

 

Being something of a loner in RL, I'd have no problem playing a character detached from others. As for the worlds beauty, I see it, and as a dark character, I would appreciate it even more as contrasting with people. Not that I'm *that* cynical in RL, but it resonates enough with me to make me know it as part of my darker side. Playing that out in an RPG would be interesting.

[Iakus]

I used to feel the same way, but I'm tired of games that make me lose and insinuate I should like it because "good" means "sacrifice". At least, if I'm self-interested and lose, I can legitimately hate it.

Well that's because with this new Dark &Edgy fad going on the Being Good Sucks trope gets played to the hilt

[Sah291]

Darkness has the quality of being powerfully and mysteriously attractive or fascinating?
To me is just a synonym of aloofness towards the world,its nature and themselves
I wouldn't like to play a PC filled with such detachment from others and the inner beauty of the world.

Hmm, it's not that I like darkness, but I like being able to make a character arc....like maybe a character who starts off darker and finds a reason to care, or a lighter character who become cynical and has a moral crisis to overcome. I find those kinds of stories more statisfying than a hero who is always good and never struggles or changes.

[Ieldra]

Ieldra, you're my hero.

Basically you're arguing for the return of the Origins protagonist.

If Tevinter is the new setting, then we will probably get some options to do the wrong thing. Those who are evil might conflict with the (ex)Inquisitor, and in that case the (x)In will have to work with the new character out of necessity, but there will be conflict. It may even have an effect on the final confrontation with Solas, in that he will chide the (x)In for working with such a character.

But what choices would you want in this setting?

Thank you. Indeed I thought of DAO's protagonist as the last one I could play as darker. Hawke couldn't be dark, Hawke could just be an assh*le.

 

As for the choices, it depends on the scope of the story, which motivations you could reasonably ascribe to your character, and which kinds of decisions would constitute your rational self-interest in that situation. Also, you could have different motivations. For instance, if you're a Tevinter Altus, do you just care about your personal power or do you want to strengthen the Imperium? Personally, I'd love to play a character like Calpernia - a renegade of the Imperium but determined to see it find its strength again; a character with some good and some bad, good to and for those she cares about but who never forgets that enemies are enemies, who would enforce the ban against human sacrifice but who is otherwise elitist and supports a continuing magocracy.