266 réponses à ce sujet

[Aerebos]

Hero class plot is much more easy to construct -> A bandwagon -> easier to relate -> sympathy -> 100% redemption -> general light-side appeal -> etc.

 

The sympathetic anti-hero/Dark/Evil class plot is difficult and to apply it to DA would probably mean a drastic change in some area of its game design/development that would be very risky. There are skills that must go into writing that I want to be biased and say that most game writers do not have those skills. Do not get me wrong, they've written some good stuff. But hell, most ​authors don't have that skill and there's much higher risk in failure than the higher success rate in hero plotting. I'd absolutely love something darker, but we'll all fall victim to crushing depression by hopeless wishings. Just continue picking 3 lmao.

[abaris]

Take a look @ Fallout 3 where you arrived @ Megaton you walked into the bar and a man name Mr. Burke offers you a job to rig the nuclear bomb to explode, if you decide to do the job and blow up Megaton the refugees will come after you (I only done it once back in 2008) but if you defuse the bomb instead you would have Talon Company mercenaries hired by Mr. Burke to kill you because you saved Megaton. You have consequences to a certain degree but in New Vegas they made consequences better regardless of what path you take especially in the endings.

 

Fallout 3 is the one and only expemption, where they handled it pretty decently. But I repeat, it's the only Beth game doing it. FNV was Obsidian. Skyrim already took it back to non reactive. And FO4, with entirely erasing reputation, walks down the same path.

[Ieldra]

And again I'll assert that it was necessary as written, something you didn't feel the need to argue about previously in the thread. The Inquisition was not going to be allowed to continue without being assimilated into the existing power structure of Thedas in some way. And as Weekes said, losing the Mark bookends the Rift crisis. The world no longer needs The Inquisitor-as-Rift-closer, but it does need her as a counterbalance to Solas, which is what Trespasser's ending showed.

You see, that's part of the problem: if the story makes me lose *at the end* just because I'm no longer needed, why should I care what the world needs?

 

The Warden was also discarded by the story. I didn't have  a problem with that, because whatever *they* lost, they lost in the course of the story, not at the end, and they lost it - significant lifespan, in this case - in order to win. The Inquisitor just lost because the writers didn't want them in a position of power. Nobody in-world gained from that but their enemies. Which means that they did lose.

[Chiramu]

I'm only upset with the fact that the character we play is pivotal to the outcome of the story. I preferred the more intimate Hawke story, but then that was ruined because Bioware couldn't help themselves and wanted Hawke to be more "important". 

Playing a Hero lost in the sea of war and pushed around by their "betters" would be more of the sort of struggle I am interested in. Overcoming those struggles and stepping above it sounds more enjoyable. 

 

I've always liked more intimate stories though. I find smaller stories easier to become immersed in. 

[Big I]

What annoys me is how they treat integrating protagonists into future franchise installments, i.e. they don't. You can make a Warden who's monarch of Ferelden, controls the teyrn of Gwaren and the arling of Amaranthine, and is the lover of the Divine...only for none of that to matter and the Warden to disappear. You can make Hawke the Viscount of Kirkwall, only for Varric to take his title. You can make the Inquisition the most powerful organisation in the world and give the Inquisitor the ability to influence nations, only for them to lose all that in Trespasser.

 

My favorite part of playing a DA protagonist is shaping the world. Making Bhelen king because it's best for the dwarves, siding with the Kirkwall mages because Meredith's nuts, building the Inquisition to finally address some of Thedas's problems (most of which have nothing to do with darkspawn magisters). Sadly, Bioware doesn't seem to feel the same way. If it's not to do with the main plot of "kill bad guy x", it won't have a significant impact.

[GoldenGail3]

D: NO! FOR REVAN'S SAKE NO!

[Medhia_Nox]

You see, that's part of the problem: if the story makes me lose *at the end* just because I'm no longer needed, why should I care what the world needs?

 

The Warden was also discarded by the story. I didn't have  a problem with that, because whatever *they* lost, they lost in the course of the story, not at the end, and they lost it - significant lifespan, in this case - in order to win. The Inquisitor just lost because the writers didn't want them in a position of power. Nobody in-world gained from that but their enemies. Which means that they did lose.

 

You know at the end of your story here (on Earth)... you're going to die and the world is going to move on right?  

 

You're never actually "needed" by the world... nobody is.    

 

Do you apply this level of apathy to the real world?  

 

For myself... that the ending of every living thing's story is "then, it died." is profoundly important because it's the final punctuation of that individual story.  Everything before it is how you got to that moment... whether it be with dignity, cruelty, evil, passion, apathy, humor, etc. etc. etc.

[In Exile]

You see, that's part of the problem: if the story makes me lose *at the end* just because I'm no longer needed, why should I care what the world needs?

The Warden was also discarded by the story. I didn't have a problem with that, because whatever *they* lost, they lost in the course of the story, not at the end, and they lost it - significant lifespan, in this case - in order to win. The Inquisitor just lost because the writers didn't want them in a position of power. Nobody in-world gained from that but their enemies. Which means that they did lose.

The Warden was far worse. The things you "lost" you didn't know you were losing or sacrificing until they were revealed as a kind of "gotcha" moment in the story which undercut any value to the sacrifice in the first place.

DAI at least has a logical conclusion - no state wants or will tolerate an extra national organization annexing their sovereign land and diverting their tax revenue.

[Medhia_Nox]

The Warden was far worse. The things you "lost" you didn't know you were losing or sacrificing until they were revealed as a kind of "gotcha" moment in the story which undercut any value to the sacrifice in the first place.

DAI at least has a logical conclusion - no state wants or will tolerate an extra national organization annexing their sovereign land and diverting their tax revenue.

I think what Ieldra wants is the chance to go to war and carve out a new state in between Orlais and Ferelden.

 

And let's be honest... a religious war hero beloved by millions IS the best way to do that. 

 

I actually think it would have been terribly easy for the Frostback Mountain area to become an entirely new sovereign nation... it was only two years after the war that devastated Orlais and didn't leave Ferelden unscathed.  With the threat of the Qunari invasion... both nations wouldn't be looking to fight a war with the very powerful upstart in the mountains.  They'd be looking to make a deal so there's no problems with this new nation (likely with plans to deal with it once the Qunari are defeated).

[Realmzmaster]

I think what Ieldra wants is the chance to go to war and carve out a new state in between Orlais and Ferelden.

 

And let's be honest... a religious war hero beloved by millions IS the best way to do that. 

 

I actually think it would have been terribly easy for the Frostback Mountain area to become an entirely new sovereign nation... it was only two years after the war that devastated Orlais and didn't leave Ferelden unscathed.  With the threat of the Qunari invasion... both nations wouldn't be looking to fight a war with the very powerful upstart in the mountains.  They'd be looking to make a deal so there's no problems with this new nation (likely with plans to deal with it once the Qunari are defeated).

 

The problem is that the Inquisition is spread too thin. It has established keeps and camps in different areas that it reasonable could not hold if attacked. The combined armies of Orlais and Ferelden would simply cut the supply lines denying the Inquisition any way of waging a protracted conflict. Also the Inquisition was formed through the Divine's edict. If the Inquisitor was seen opposing the new Divine the Inquisitor could lose the following of the faithful therefore no army or at the very least plunged the land into unwinnable war.

[Medhia_Nox]

@Realmzmaster:  I don't disagree.  There are a lot of things that would make the conflict interesting and full of difficult choices. 

 

And this is also an entire concept that requires actual roleplaying... and not a cRPG.... because "how" people would go about this "if" they even wanted to would require maddening amounts of programming.  

 

These concepts are better reserved for headcanon.  

[Iakus]

You see, that's part of the problem: if the story makes me lose *at the end* just because I'm no longer needed, why should I care what the world needs?

 

The Warden was also discarded by the story. I didn't have  a problem with that, because whatever *they* lost, they lost in the course of the story, not at the end, and they lost it - significant lifespan, in this case - in order to win. The Inquisitor just lost because the writers didn't want them in a position of power. Nobody in-world gained from that but their enemies. Which means that they did lose.

I suppose this leads to the question:

 

What are you willing to lose to ensure a satisfying ending for you?  

 

I know I've had to answer that more than a few times regarding ME3 and charges of just wanting a "rainbows and unicorns" outcome.

[IllustriousT]

Happy endings tend to easily be forgotten. Sad or bitter sweet endings stick with me. I am willing to lose if that means the ending is memorable - and meaningful. 

 

 

My Warden did the Ultimate Sacrifice ending, and I believe that is why DA:O is still one of my favs.

My romance with Solas.

 

Endings like that of  The Vanishing of Ethan Carter...man that was powerful, and I remember it. 

 

I want memorable experiences, and in my case, those are also emotional moments.

[Iakus]

 

My Warden did the Ultimate Sacrifice ending, and I believe that is why DA:O is still one of my favs.

 

The thing is, though, DAO doesn't force you to do the Ultimate Sacrifice.  My own favorite ending is Redeeming Loghain and letting him die doing one last heroic deed to atone for his actions.  Others think the Dark Ritual is the best:  saving everyone and preserving the soul of an Old God.  And some prefer

 

"Sad" and "bittersweet" are pretty subjective.  How much sweet?  How much bitter.  Tastes are going to greatly differ (as Bioware learned the hard way with ME3).  So I'd say having a variety of possible outcomes serves best.

[Treacherous J Slither]

Personally I want more DA2 Act1 type stories.

Regular people trying to survive, meet personal goals etc. No more epic world saving.

I would give an arm to play a DA game as a blood mage searching for immortality or a ME game as an ardat-yakshi on the run from the Justicars.

[Shechinah]

The thing is, though, DAO doesn't force you to do the Ultimate Sacrifice.  My own favorite ending is Redeeming Loghain and letting him die doing one last heroic deed to atone for his actions.  Others think the Dark Ritual is the best:  saving everyone and preserving the soul of an Old God.  And some prefer

 

"Sad" and "bittersweet" are pretty subjective.  How much sweet?  How much bitter.  Tastes are going to greatly differ (as Bioware learned the hard way with ME3).  So I'd say having a variety of possible outcomes serves best.

 

That the ultimate sacrifice is voluntary on the player's behalf is exactly what makes it work, in my opinion, because it is a genuine sacrifice. Choice is the difference between being sacrificed and sacrificing one self.

 

I still like and select the other endings often enough; I too like Loghain making the sacrifice. I just wanted to note how I feel the Ultimate Sacrifice is an example of sacrifice in a roleplaying game like Mass Effect and Dragon Age done right because it leaves the choice with the player.

 

Also, it does not shame the player for not sacrificing themselves; yeah, that kid sure was selfish for not dying needlessly when there were better options avaliable that would result in no one needing to die!

 

 Though I know it's likely because they could not get additional recordings so they used one of the recordings they had.

[IllustriousT]

The thing is, though, DAO doesn't force you to do the Ultimate Sacrifice.  My own favorite ending is Redeeming Loghain and letting him die doing one last heroic deed to atone for his actions.  Others think the Dark Ritual is the best:  saving everyone and preserving the soul of an Old God.  And some prefer

 

"Sad" and "bittersweet" are pretty subjective.  How much sweet?  How much bitter.  Tastes are going to greatly differ (as Bioware learned the hard way with ME3).  So I'd say having a variety of possible outcomes serves best.

 

I was remarking on my own outcomes. What you find most satisfying is what is important to you...obviously. I wasn't remarking on everyone else's feelings on the matter. 

[Ieldra]

I suppose this leads to the question:

 

What are you willing to lose to ensure a satisfying ending for you?  

 

I know I've had to answer that more than a few times regarding ME3 and charges of just wanting a "rainbows and unicorns" outcome.

Here are a few items:

 

(1) I actually didn't mind losing the arm as such. I'd happily have Maelyn live one-armed for the rest of her life. Losing the anchor along with it was what made it a really bad hit.

 

(2) If in the epilogue, most of the Inquisition's army would've left for their homes, leaving me only with a core guard and Skyhold, that would've been perfectly ok. I would've lost political power, but I wouldn't have lost it *to* someone.

 

(3) And lastly, I didn't really mind losing to Solas. He is a mage with god-like powers after all, and an antagonist I respect.

 

(4) It would've been less unpleasant had I lost an arm - or even an eye - against Corypheus in Haven

 

On the other hand, just to indicate how invested Maelyn was in the anchor, if keeping it had meant she could only relax - and sleep - in the Fade, and having to deal with the same stuff as in the final stretch of Trespasser at any time she left it, I'd have accepted that in preference to losing it. It would've been an interesting outcome as well, one into which I could put some imagination. 
 

[AlanC9]

You see, that's part of the problem: if the story makes me lose *at the end* just because I'm no longer needed, why should I care what the world needs?

You're muddling up two completely different uses of "I" here. Since you're making a pure metagaming argument, you really ought to distinguish between the PC and yourself, if only for greater clarity about exactly who is no longer needed and who is doing the caring.

The Warden was also discarded by the story. I didn't have a problem with that, because whatever *they* lost, they lost in the course of the story, not at the end, and they lost it - significant lifespan, in this case - in order to win. The Inquisitor just lost because the writers didn't want them in a position of power. Nobody in-world gained from that but their enemies. Which means that they did lose.

Wait, what? Some of our Wardens lost plenty of stuff during the story that had nothing to do with winning. My HN lost most of her family, for instance.

And really, this talk about "losing" is starting to come off as a bit hysterical. The Inquisitor comes down a little bit in Trespasser from the peak at the end of DAI proper, but compared to where the Inquisitor started the story, it's still a huge gain in power, fame, connections.... , any metric I can think of.

[Shechinah]

I kind of saw my Dalish Inquisitor as gaining plenty since her racial quest was completed so her clan had sort of settled at Wycome with the Keeper installed in the city council alongside a city elf. Varric even provided her Clan with some valuable political muscle alongside the title of Comte for Lavellan and holdings in Kirkwall.

 

The previous status of Inquisitor and what the organization had accomplished was probably why an elf and a dalish to boot was allowed all of that. Future deeds such as helping Kirkwall and building on the clan's status is going to help maintain that status.

 

Basically, I see Lavellan as having gained more than enough for me to feel like she was not kicked back to the woods though I would have been content with her simply participating in the shadow organization to deal with Solas. It is a nice and hopeful ending for now seeing as the status is likely going to help her when she tries to raise the rights of elves and others through diplomacy, trade and social engineering.  

 

You know, if my Lavellan has children, I like to imaging she'll consider naming one of them after Varric and though I think he might feel moved by the gesture, I am not sure if he'd like it. I can see her joke about naming the child in some fashion like Varrica, Varricilia, Varriciothiel to tease him. He'd likely return fire by joking about calling her by the title of Comtess Lavellan.

[Master Warder Z_]

both nations wouldn't be looking to fight a war with the very powerful upstart in the mountains.  T

 

And I will repeat what I said months ago.

 

They can merely block supply routes and have a few battalions of soldiers stationed across the mountains to prevent anything from getting to or from Skyhold, it would wither on the vine and die inside a few years. That fortress isn't self sustaining and loyalty is a curious thing, how long do you think people would remain attached to this ridiculous idea about a new kingdom when the wells run dry and the food is gone?

[Medhia_Nox]

@Ieldra:  You can't put any imagination into what the Inquisitor we get is doing?  

 

I'm pleased - because now my Inquisitor will be the cerebral creature he was made to be... pulling the strings of nations and of heroes and directing them toward the real enemy - Solas. 

 

@Master Warder Z:  How ever do the Avvar survive I wonder... I wonder how Haven survived without any arable land?  I would have imagined they would have died ages ago if what you say is true.  Man... I bet that dragon brought them food from far and wide just so their vast dragon cult could live in solitude. 

 

And... hmm... I wonder if there's a great kingdom at the north end of the Frostback that does trade with both Orlais and Ferelden that isn't opposed to smuggling... I wonder if there's a Cartel or something that is heavily connected with this kingdom that might benefit from what I have by bringing supplies through.  

 

And I never said it was guaranteed... but you don't get better than a war hero religious icon as far as loyalty.  I can't even see how you can argue that.  

[Fiskrens]

And I will repeat what I said months ago.
 
They can merely block supply routes and have a few battalions of soldiers stationed across the mountains to prevent anything from getting to or from Skyhold, it would wither on the vine and die inside a few years. That fortress isn't self sustaining and loyalty is a curious thing, how long do you think people would remain attached to this ridiculous idea about a new kingdom when the wells run dry and the food is gone?

Yes, and one must also remember that one reason the inquisition gains followers is because it isn't against the other nations: it's popular because it's focus is "above" nations. Take away that by waging war against the home nations of its followers, and they would start leaving in droves. Imagine how Cullen would react? Cassandra? Leliana?

Another thing I find interesting is how people request "smaller", not so grand hero-saves-everyone stories. I think the story in DAI is a response to the many complaints from DA2 regarding "not a true hero", "nothing Hawke did mattered", etc. Damned if you do, damned if you don't...

[mgagne]

The problem is that the Inquisition is spread too thin. It has established keeps and camps in different areas that it reasonable could not hold if attacked. The combined armies of Orlais and Ferelden would simply cut the supply lines denying the Inquisition any way of waging a protracted conflict. Also the Inquisition was formed through the Divine's edict. If the Inquisitor was seen opposing the new Divine the Inquisitor could lose the following of the faithful therefore no army or at the very least plunged the land into unwinnable war.

 

 

I don't think we are in a position to judge of the extent of the Inquisition's military strength.  The only indication we have is a comment made by Cullen before engaging Corypheus in the Arbor Wilds, that with the help of the imperial army the Inquisition matches Cory's numbers.  Presumably this means the Inquisition legions are equal to the Orlesian forces.  While my favorite scenario remains a marriage with Celene (if we're a human noble of course) I can see other possibilities. 

 

Do not forget the Inquisitor has some time to prepare after the final confrontation with Cory; time to strengthen his strongholds to secure his supply lines for instance - or redeploy his assets to cut off those of his enemies once he's ready to move.  If the Inquisition has freed the mages and allied with them he can promise their full freedom in exchange for their help against both Orlais and Ferelden - who can hardly count on any mages themselves. 

 

As for the Divine' sanction, by the time we win there is no Divine elected yet whereas the Inquisitor is revered throughout the land - the only one who stood against the chaos when everyone else failed.  As a matter of fact, if you play the religious card to the hilt the Inquisitor could conceivably claim the Sunburst Throne for himself and the people would accept it.  A warrior prophet as Divine, with a devoted army at his command, announcing a time of change...  The monarchs of Thedas would tremble and bend the knee to him (this is essentially the main plot of the Second Apocalypse trilogy by Scott Bakker - highly recommended read btw)

 

Naturally Bioware will never go down that route but one can speculate, which is part of the fun in between chapters of Thedas' history.

[CronoDragoon]

And I will repeat what I said months ago.

 

They can merely block supply routes and have a few battalions of soldiers stationed across the mountains to prevent anything from getting to or from Skyhold, it would wither on the vine and die inside a few years. That fortress isn't self sustaining and loyalty is a curious thing, how long do you think people would remain attached to this ridiculous idea about a new kingdom when the wells run dry and the food is gone?

 

cue Aimi's lecture about how historically impractical skyhold is for a base of power.