145 réponses à ce sujet

[Chealec]

Depending on the game, there are game that are about power fantasy, and player's agency. 

 

If I want a power fantasy I'll play Tropico

 

 

[Silvery]

I would not mind at all more agency and awareness from NPC's in games, the only question would be finding the right balance between NPC agency and player control in each game.

[They call me a SpaceCowboy]

Not to mention he/she dies for the galaxy's sins. And is afterwards called "The Shepard"

And the 12 disiples. . Err. .. followers. They even put them all into a last supper picture. Same with the inquisator.

[9TailsFox]

And the 12 disiples. . Err. .. followers. They even put them all into a last supper picture. Same with the inquisator.

Solas in Judas place coincidence  I think not.

[Eromenos]

It can be a great aspect.

 

I liked the DA2 Anders example.

 

I do not like it when TIM/Cerberus etc shoe-horn us into their BS.

 

The differences are vast between the two. Anders' is a buildup, and regardless whether we agree with him there are plenty of NPCs in Kirkwall and beyond who would agree, and understandably too. But TIM et al represented an abrupt tonal shift and not for the better; that there was an instance which deserved lots more pushback from us rather than just the heavy-handed disclaimers disavowing implanted control chips. If anything, Shepard should have acted more like Anders throughout ME2. Ceberus was a more interesting challenge than the Collectors, not that that's saying much.

 

Anders isn't the only "BioWare" precedent. Much as I love Kreia, she was someone we're saddled with and there were plenty of ways to express discord against that if people were so inclined. We could do so towards Anders as well. Those two are among my favorite characters but I still appreciated having the ever-present options to express otherwise. Feature was seriously lacking throughout ME2; the "teleconference" snipes with TIM were utterly toothless. That he wasn't a subordinate squadmate makes no difference in my view, just look at Udina.

[Master Warder Z_]

The differences are vast between the two. Anders' is a buildup

 

That was obvious and should have been able to be cut off at the knees, I mean seriously you can warn people about this guy, Its like the dang CIA and Bin Laden all over again.

[Yggdrasil]

I think the mantra of player agency has gotten a little ridiculous, and my main criticism of the player making all of these earth-shattering decisions is that it limits future content.  The whole reason Mass Effect is getting a soft reboot in Andromeda is because there was no way to continue the franchise in the Milky Way without creating four entirely different games.  Suggestions of doing a prequel or arbitrarily choosing a canon ending after offering the choice were extremely unpopular.  Why can't defeating the Reapers be the series end goal, and the player is given agency as to how they achieve that one goal.  Do they follow the Paragon or Renegade path?  Do they work with people or force their point?  Are they able to retain their humanity or do they become almost as bad as the Reapers themselves in order to save the galaxy?

 

I don't agree that the point of RPG's is a god-mode power trip.  It broke immersion for me in Skyrim that I could be the head of every major guild in the nation in addition to being the chosen one savior.  I'd rather the focus be on the journey rather the end state of making every single monumental decision that comes along.

[vbibbi]

A player shouldn't be able to solve every minor argument or problem that comes along.

 

But if we turn the character into a complete bystander, why are we playing at all?

I think choices and consequences need to be better implemented. It is silly when the PC just directly solves all of these issues and the rest of the world is useless. I want more mechanics like the Divine election in DAI; our actions throughout the game determine who is chosen, but the player doesn't directly choose the candidate. It's still a result of our actions, but less black/white and more multifaceted.

[wright1978]

I think choices and consequences need to be better implemented. It is silly when the PC just directly solves all of these issues and the rest of the world is useless. I want more mechanics like the Divine election in DAI; our actions throughout the game determine who is chosen, but the player doesn't directly choose the candidate. It's still a result of our actions, but less black/white and more multifaceted.

 

I didn't mind that one off example, though i think you'd ideally want more clarity. I certainly don't think it should be commonplace.

I really disliked the Orlesian succession one in DAI where there seem at least 2 perfectly viable candidates the player could be able to support and is able to voice their support for. Yet when it comes down to it the only way to support rivals is to stand back and let a murder occur.

[Quarian Master Race]

My opinion of the persuasion mechanic isn't as generally negative as yours is, but I wholeheartedly agree about that option during Tali's trial. Watching Reegar and Veetor speak out is easily the most fun way to end that scene.

It's how I always end the mission if I plan on getting the ideal outcome. Shep walking onto the Rayya and making a speech that fundamentally shifts the paradigms of quarian politics is no less ridiculous than Putin waltzing into the Capitol and telling everyone to vote for Trump, and should have similar results. Shep's perhaps a relatively well known and even respected outsider, but they're still an outsider. Their word should mean nothing when there's still a couple dozen traitors and and a lot of illegal research to be dealt with over on the Alarei. The population threatening full scale revolt over the Admiralty Board attempting to go all Joe McCarthy on what are essentially their folk war heroes (Tali is as important to them as Shep is to humans, perhaps moreso given the opinions you hear walking around the Fleet, and Reegar is influential enough to have a gun named after him), seems a far more credible and believable version of that outcome.

I mean think about it, would the converse make sense? Admiral Tali, Urdnot Leader Wrex or special advisor Garrus walking up to the Alliance Parliament and asking them to kindly drop charges and release Shepard from house arrest between ME2 and 3, or worse angrily start ranting at their supposed political machinations? No matter their high status and rank within their own people, they'd be laughed out of the room. Hell, they don't even bother listening to Shepard until the eleventh hour. The governing body of a pariah species listens to Shepard more than his/her own people do, think about that for a second.

Shitposts? I thought we were having a nice discussion.

we were, but this is BSN. We can't have nice things.

Hans Landa

Because the geth can't make up their minds. The consensus is great and all until you realize they have no innate tie breakers.
Also where is it stated that Shepard has no higher education? Ignore Earthborn background and avoidable idiot replies.


Nah, I like shouting at suit rats. Particularly when they're being dumb which is most of the time.

If I remember correctly, a very small majority of Legion's runtimes judged rewrite to be preferable, so why didn't it just go with that? I'd have preferred that (along with the ability to influence some of those runtimes to tend toward destruction based on how we interact with Legion or respond to its questions earlier).

At least when said suit rats say they're gonna help you kill some Reapers, they go about strapping guns to everything they have that can carry them rather than building a literal idiot ball. So what if they want to make sure said guns are calibrated properly with some target practice on planet stealing toasters first? Provided you don't sabotage them, they end up capable of the single highest mathematical contribution to the war effort other than the special snowflake humans, not bad considering they've like 1/1000th of the popluation. Hell, they arguably even improve the geth contribution by forcing them to get gud or get rekt. You're welcome galaxy.

Search your feelings, you know it to be true. Accept your enviro suited overlords. Join us, and together we can rule the galaxy as dextro and levo Master Race.

[Linkenski]

And the 12 disiples. . Err. .. followers. They even put them all into a last supper picture. Same with the inquisator.

Quality Bioware Subtlety

[vbibbi]

I didn't mind that one off example, though i think you'd ideally want more clarity. I certainly don't think it should be commonplace.

I really disliked the Orlesian succession one in DAI where there seem at least 2 perfectly viable candidates the player could be able to support and is able to voice their support for. Yet when it comes down to it the only way to support rivals is to stand back and let a murder occur.

Not all decisions would use that system, sure. A mix of direct decisions, compounded actions leading to an outcome, and maybe even some impossible-to-win options. I think presenting the player with options, even if not all of the options are going to be realistic or followed through, can help provide a sense of player agency, even if it still boils down to one outcome.

 

Why not have Hawke refuse to help Tallis even if she succeeds in her goal? Why not have Shepard say "screw the odds, I'm going to save Kaidan and Ashley!" even if the game then arbitrarily chooses one of them die? Or have our PC try to convince the enemy to stand down, even when there's no way the enemy would reject their goal and always has to be killed?

[Lady Artifice]

It's how I always end the mission if I plan on getting the ideal outcome. Shep walking onto the Rayya and making a speech that fundamentally shifts the paradigms of quarian politics is no more ridiculous than Putin waltzing into the Capitol and telling everyone to vote for Trump, and should have similar results. Shep's perhaps a relatively well known and even respected outsider, but they're still an outsider. Their word should mean nothing when there's still a couple dozen traitors and and a lot of illegal research to be dealt with over on the Alarei. The population threatening full scale revolt over the Admiralty Board attempting to go all Joe McCarthy on what are essentially their folk war heroes (Tali is as important to them as Shep is to humans, perhaps moreso given the opinions you hear walking around the Fleet, and Reegar is influential enough to have a gun named after him), seems a far more credible and believable version of that outcome.

I mean think about it, would the converse make sense? Admiral Tali, Urdnot Leader Wrex or special advisor Garrus walking up to the Alliance Parliament and asking them to kindly drop charges and release Shepard from house arrest between ME2 and 3, or worse angrily start ranting at their supposed political machinations? No matter their high status and rank within their own people, they'd be laughed out of the room. Hell, they don't even bother listening to Shepard until the eleventh hour. The governing body of a pariah species listens to Shepard more than his/her own people do, think about that for a second. 

 

Mostly I agree, in part because I didn't think Shepard's rousing speech was all that compelling to begin with. The only possible defense I could offer would be that Shepard isn't just an outsider telling them what to do, they're an outsider telling them what the spectating crowd already seems to want to hear. 

 

But on a related note, Reegar is such foxy badass. 

[9TailsFox]

I didn't mind that one off example, though i think you'd ideally want more clarity. I certainly don't think it should be commonplace.

I really disliked the Orlesian succession one in DAI where there seem at least 2 perfectly viable candidates the player could be able to support and is able to voice their support for. Yet when it comes down to it the only way to support rivals is to stand back and let a murder occur.

It's not like in DA:O Orzammar where we have 2 possible candidates, there is nothing for us to support in Orlais, Celene is empress Gaspard is traitor/rebel. Celine have stronger claim to the throne. Our word means nothing.

[RoseLawliet]

It's not like in DA:O Orzammar where we have 2 possible candidates, there is nothing for us to support in Orlais, Celene is empress Gaspard is traitor/rebel. Celine have stronger claim to the throne. Our word means nothing.

 

Only at present. The whole reason Gaspard can try to claim the throne is that Celene stole it from him years ago. Traditionalists, or people who simply despise the Game/stealing/backstabbing/whatever, will see Celene as the usurper. Indeed, many Orlesians do. That's where a good chunk of Gaspard's support comes from.

 

That being said, I'll always pick Celene over Gaspard. I don't like me a warmonger.

 

Our word doesn't have to mean anything when the way Gaspard gets the throne is by Celene dying.

Modifié par RoseLawliet, 26 mars 2016 - 04:15 .

[Commander Rpg]

Quality Bioware Subtlety

They should live the Bible they read instead of using its excerpts to make disgraceful products.

[Quarian Master Race]

Mostly I agree, in part because I didn't think Shepard's rousing speech was all that compelling to begin with. The only possible defense I could offer would be that Shepard isn't just an outsider telling them what to do, they're an outsider telling them what the spectating crowd already seems to want to hear. 

 

But on a related note, Reegar is such foxy badass. 

Yes, moar Reegar is always a good thing  . Worth picking that option just for his extra lines alone.

I like the "I don't know what I'd have done if you hadn't spoken up" line Shep then gets with him after. Humanizes them a bit and makes them feel a bit more like just a player in the universe rather than its ultimate master.

[CrutchCricket]

I mean think about it, would the converse make sense? Admiral Tali, Urdnot Leader Wrex or special advisor Garrus walking up to the Alliance Parliament and asking them to kindly drop charges and release Shepard from house arrest between ME2 and 3

Nah, what's really dumb is Shepard losing his blue/red shouting ability between games and thus being forced to twiddle his thumbs in the brig. Well no, that's inaccurate. He's not being forced, he's just dumb. I retract my question about higher learning.
 

If I remember correctly, a very small majority of Legion's runtimes judged rewrite to be preferable, so why didn't it just go with that? I'd have preferred that (along with the ability to influence some of those runtimes to tend toward destruction based on how we interact with Legion or respond to its questions earlier).

Well the geth always operated by consensus. I think small majority still means "even split" to them. And unlike the original schism with the heretics both choices can't co-exist so it's not like the geth can just split up and each side do its own thing.
 

At least when said suit rats say they're gonna help you kill some Reapers, they go about strapping guns to everything they have that can carry them rather than building a literal idiot ball. So what if they want to make sure said guns are calibrated properly with some target practice on planet stealing toasters first? Provided you don't sabotage them, they end up capable of the single highest mathematical contribution to the war effort other than the special snowflake humans, not bad considering they've like 1/1000th of the popluation. Hell, they arguably even improve the geth contribution by forcing them to get gud or get rekt. You're welcome galaxy.

They already had guns strapped to everything, don't change the subject.

The suit rats need to feel the sting of what their idiocy cost them. If they'd only tried negotiating we could've gotten so much more, from both sides. But whatever. I shouted them in submission like a boss and their efforts towards the war have been satisfactory. Now as Reaper overlord I'll make sure both sides continue to serve along the paths I desire.
 

Search your feelings, you know it to be true. Accept your enviro suited overlords. Join us, and together we can rule the galaxy as dextro and levo Master Race.

...nah. Why join when you can rule?
 

[wright1978]

It's not like in DA:O Orzammar where we have 2 possible candidates, there is nothing for us to support in Orlais, Celene is empress Gaspard is traitor/rebel. Celine have stronger claim to the throne. Our word means nothing.

 

I'd say it's rather similar to Orzammar actually.

There's a civil war going on, i'd say its bizarre to say Celene is the uncontested empress at that stage (as presented by Masked empire and the game)

Yet after presenting it in this way and even having player give opinion on who should rule to Advisors at the party, the game then ignores said opinions to force support of Celene no matter the evidence collected against her.

[Quarian Master Race]

Nah, what's really dumb is Shepard losing his blue/red shouting ability between games and thus being forced to twiddle his thumbs in the brig. Well no, that's inaccurate. He's not being forced, he's just dumb. I retract my question about higher learning.

TBH s/he wouldn't have needed that blue/red shouting anyway if the leadership of every Council species weren't composed of at best retards and at worst nihilistic misanthropes, more concerned with maintaining order to win their next election or whatever than them and their billions of constituents not dying horribly when the Reapers show up. 

Oh, I didn't answer that question. Both the Spacer and Earthborn Shepard enlist at 18. Colonist is rescued from Mindoir by the Alliance at 16 and then enlists "a few years later". 

Given that Shepard is 29-30 (born in 2154, and doesn't age while dead, obviously), I suppose they could have used their space Jesus powers to fit a few years of university somewhere in the middle of going from Private to Commander and working their way up to N7, but given how insanely dumb some of the things they say are, that seems very unlikely. Like, what sort of higher ed. degree would not require one to take some kind of life sciences 101 course, and thus not need to ask if the asari need others species to reproduce? History 101 to know that the First Contact "War" killed like 100 people and the Krogan Rebellions billions? Comparative politics to know that the Quarians don't operate with a dynastic monarchy? How did Shep even get through 6th grade with stupid like that?

 

Well the geth always operated by consensus. I think small majority still means "even split" to them. And unlike the original schism with the heretics both choices can't co-exist so it's not like the geth can just split up and each side do its own thing.

TBH I don't know why they even let the Heretics go in the first place. That's a bit like someone telling you they're going off to Syria to join IS and murder some infidels, and you doing absolutely nothing to try and stop them, not even reporting them to the authorities. Actually, it's worse, considering IS is just a small minority of loons with no real ability to pose an actual risk to western society other than small scale terrorism, while the Reapers pose a massive security threat to the non Heretic geth (nevermind the orgaincs, though as of ME1 the geth didn't care about them at all so being unconcered with their fate is unsurprising), and you're just handing them a bunch of troops.

 

They already had guns strapped to everything, don't change the subject.

The suit rats need to feel the sting of what their idiocy cost them. If they'd only tried negotiating we could've gotten so much more, from both sides. But whatever. I shouted them in submission like a boss and their efforts towards the war have been satisfactory. Now as Reaper overlord I'll make sure both sides continue to serve along the paths I desire.

Not the majority of the Civilian ships (seeing as both Raan and EDI make a point of noting this), and not the Dreadnought scale guns. There was a nice little pre ME3 tidbit about the quarians attacking Korlus to acquire the materials for such, then giving the Council the finger when they tried to meddle
http://blog.bioware....liancenewsnet3/

Meh, Control "Shep" is really just some toaster made from their neural architecture. You can't even enjoy all that...

 
 

[CrutchCricket]

TBH s/he wouldn't have needed that blue/red shouting anyway if the leadership of every Council species weren't composed of at best retards and at worst nihilistic misanthropes, more concerned with maintaining order to win their next election or whatever than them and their billions of constituents not dying horribly when the Reapers show up.

 And thus we see the true threat of the Reaper cycles. Not the dependence on mass relays, not the usage of the Citadel. That's only intermediate. Use of Reaper tech literally makes you an idiot.
 

Oh, I didn't answer that question. Both the Spacer and Earthborn Shepard enlist at 18. Colonist is rescued from Mindoir by the Alliance at 16 and then enlists "a few years later". 

Given that Shepard is 29-30 (born in 2154, and doesn't age while dead, obviously), I suppose they could have used their space Jesus powers to fit a few years of university somewhere in the middle of going from Private to Commander and working their way up to N7, but given how insanely dumb some of the things they say are, that seems very unlikely. Like, what sort of higher ed. degree would not require one to take some kind of life sciences 101 course, and thus not need to ask if the asari need others species to reproduce? History 101 to know that the First Contact "War" killed like 100 people and the Krogan Rebellions billions? Comparative politics to know that the Quarians don't operate with a dynastic monarchy? How did Shep even get through 6th grade with stupid like that?

I know some of those are avoidable. To the rest, insert some commentary about the state of North American school system here. But the modern military can put you through school so I assume the Alliance did for Shepard as well. Come to think of it I think you need some kind of post secondary degree to be an officer so it'd be reasonable to assume it works the same in-game.
 

TBH I don't know why they even let the Heretics go in the first place. That's a bit like someone telling you they're going off to Syria to join IS and murder some infidels, and you doing absolutely nothing to try and stop them, not even reporting them to the authorities. Actually, it's worse, considering IS is just a small minority of loons with no real ability to pose an actual risk to western society other than small scale terrorism, while the Reapers pose a massive security threat to the non Heretic geth (nevermind the orgaincs, though as of ME1 the geth didn't care about them at all so being unconcered with their fate is unsurprising), and you're just handing them a bunch of troops.

Did the geth have any reason to think the Reapers were a threat to them at that point (pre-ME1)? Otherwise you're assuming they judged the heretics' goals. "Their conclusion was just as valid for them as our was for us" or something to that extent.
 

Not the majority of the Civilian ships (seeing as both Raan and EDI make a point of noting this), and not the Dreadnought scale guns. There was a nice little pre ME3 tidbit about the quarians attacking Korlus to acquire the materials for such, then giving the Council the finger when they tried to meddle
http://blog.bioware....liancenewsnet3/

Fine, but I would consider that an oversight in ME2 then. Given the importance of some of those ships (particularly the liveships) I'd fault them any time they weren't bristling with guns. The margin for error is rather thin.
 

Meh, Control "Shep" is really just some toaster made from their neural architecture. You can't even enjoy all that...

I'm enjoying it just fine: