1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

See, this right here is the problem. Weekes didn't say the Qunari were trying to invade. 

I agree. It was a legitimate group of Qunari, but it was led by a rogue agent. Same as the Arishok leading the Qunari to attack Kirkwall, also done without authorization.
 

 

Nope, "the Qunari" is just "the Qunari". Weeke's clearly says they thought about making it a rogue group of Qunari then rejected that idea. It's the same as when the story says "The Qunari are at war with Tevinter." Iron Bull serves "the Qunari" as an option. That's right, game details don't matter. Weeke's gives us the "behind the scenes" scoop on what the Qunari just tried to do. Invade Thedas. Again, you can't hide behind the minutia. 

 

"We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war"

[Almostfaceman]

 I agree. It was a legitimate group of Qunari, but it was led by a rogue agent. Same as the Arishok leading the Qunari to attack Kirkwall, also done without authorization.
 

 

Nope "done without authorization" is the very definition of "going rogue". Weekes' clearly says that's not the situation in this case. 

 

"We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war"

[Navasha]

I didn't realize this was ever in doubt.   Was made pretty clear that it was a Qunari operation.   The Qunari don't exactly have "rogue" elements.    Any free will makes them Tal'Vashoth.  

[midnight tea]

I would like to add that the epilogue slide specifically chooses the verb "disavow."  The Qunari "disavowed" the Viddasala's actions. It is a denial of responsibility and leaning toward a political feel.

 

Entirely true. And their approach towards Kirkwall shenanigans was pretty much "well... that never happened". They're in denial abut any perceived failure or will cut away from it ASAP. And let's not forget that the Qunari people are established in story to play dirty politics that's convenient for them (of course they don't understand it that way - they think everything is alright on their side):

 

Alistair: So I suppose once I'm actually king I could end up in negotiations with the Qunari one day.

Sten: My people do not negotiate.

Alistair: What do you mean? They negotiated a peace treaty after the war, and as far as I know they've kept to its terms.

Sten: They signed a piece of paper. But only because they knew that you believed in it.

Alistair: And what is the difference between that and negotiating?

Sten: They stopped fighting for their own reasons. And they will resume it again, one day. The agreement means nothing to them.

Alistair: But I thought you said your people believed in honor.

Sten: They do. The honor of the Qunari is what will bring our warships back to your shores.

 

Said by the same Sten who can become the new Arishok. The same Sten who said, even to befriended Warden, with utmost conviction that, yes - the Qunari will eventually conquer the South. During his lifetime.

[RoseLawliet]

1. If it was plausible deniability, why did Viddasala prevent its intended delivery?

 

Maybe you have some thoughts on this, but have you ever considered that the letter we find is merely a draft? The final letter could have been sent.

[Dai Grepher]

I would like to add that the epilogue slide specifically chooses the verb "disavow."  The Qunari "disavowed" the Viddasala's actions. It is a denial of responsibility and leaning toward a political feel.

disavow
verb (used with object)
1. to disclaim knowledge of, connection with, or responsibility for; disown; repudiate:

Nope, "the Qunari" is just "the Qunari".

Just like "the elves" is all elves from every time period, right?

Weeke's clearly says they thought about making it a rogue group of Qunari then rejected that idea.

Right, he refers to the group we fought, not the entire nation of qunari people.

It's the same as when the story says "The Qunari are at war with Tevinter." Iron Bull serves "the Qunari" as an option.

But "Qunari" can also refer to a specific group, which you admit was the case here. Weekes was referring to the Qunari we fought in the game, not the entire nation of people.

That's right, game details don't matter. Weeke's gives us the "behind the scenes" scoop on what the Qunari just tried to do. Invade Thedas. Again, you can't hide behind the minutia.

He never said they tried to invade. You are putting words in his mouth. Game facts do matter, because the facts state that the Qunari leadership disavowed Viddasala and her plot. This opens the possibility that the Qunari we fought were not authorized to do what they did.

We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war"

No where did he say they were authorized, or that they tried to invade. He said they were going to make them Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth, or a "Black Chant" type of Qun followers with their own version. They decided to make them real Qunari though. That in no way implies that these real Qunari were authorized by the Triumvirate.

Nope "done without authorization" is the very definition of "going rogue". Weekes' clearly says that's not the situation in this case.

Weekes said they weren't a rogue group. That was never in question. The accusation is against Viddasala, who misused legitimate Qunari for her own rogue actions.

Besides, "going rogue" for Qunari could be something different from what you think it is. Viddasala was rogue by our standards, but to her she was fulfilling what the Qun demands. The Qun demands that the South be conquered. She was trying to instigate a war that would lead the Qunari people back into war. As far as she was concerned, she was following the Qun, even without the Triumvirate's authorization.

Entirely true. And their approach towards Kirkwall shenanigans was pretty much "well... that never happened".

That is Varric's opinion, not canon.

http://dragonage.wik...om/wiki/Arigena

In the aftermath of the Qunari attack on Kirkwall, in an unprecedented public display the Ariqun and the Arigena travel to Kont-aar in Rivain, the only Qunari settlement on mainland Thedas and make a public statement before a crowd of Chantry officials, diplomats and Rivaini seers, denouncing and disavowing the Arishok's attack on the city.

I don't know what their source for this is however. Probably WoT 1 or 2.

They're in denial abut any perceived failure or will cut away from it ASAP. And let's not forget that the Qunari people are established in story to play dirty politics that's convenient for them (of course they don't understand it that way - they think everything is alright on their side):

No one disputes that they will play dirty to win, but just because they will play dirty doesn't mean they played dirty in the case of Trespasser.

Said by the same Sten who can become the new Arishok. The same Sten who said, even to befriended Warden, with utmost conviction that, yes - the Qunari will eventually conquer the South. During his lifetime.

Again, not in dispute. The question is if the Triumvirate tried to war with the South in Trespasser. The game facts indicate they didn't. Weekes does not say they did.

Arishok wants to invade, but not through Dragon's Breath. He and the others of the Triumvirate would prefer to keep sending spies and take over one country at a time when Par Vollen is ready and able to conquer the South. They are not able to do so during Trespasser.

Maybe you have some thoughts on this, but have you ever considered that the letter we find is merely a draft? The final letter could have been sent.

The letter was not written at the Darvaarad. It was written in Par Vollen and then sent to the Inquisition at Halamshiral. Viddasala intercepted it. The letter was not a draft, it was the final document.

[IllustriousT]

Semantics.

[Almostfaceman]

n. The accusation is against Viddasala, who misused legitimate Qunari for her own rogue actions.
 

 

Nope. The nomenclature is clear. When the Inquisitor is talking to Iron Bull, Iron Bull works for "The Qunari". When we do Iron Bull's loyalty mission, all the dialogue is about "the Qunari". Any casual gamer is going to see "the Qunari" as this nation of mind-controlled-ram people who want to destroy and subdue us all. Any subterfuge in the game about Viddasala is cleared up by Weekes who says:

 

"We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war,"

 

Invading another country is one great way to start a war, by the way. Which is what the Qunari just tried to do in Trespasser. 

 

The homogenous "the Qunari" nomenclature comes from Bioware, who pretty much came up with Tal Vashoth for anybody who was considered no longer "the Qunari". 

[midnight tea]

disavow
verb (used with object)
1. to disclaim knowledge of, connection with, or responsibility for; disown; repudiate:

 

... You realize this isn't helping you in any way?

 

The Soviet Union has disavowed any connection to the Katyń massacre... that didn't change the fact that they've actually done it.

 

We have hundreds other IRL examples of governments disavowing actions of their armies or agents and all things point to the Qunari doing the exact same thing after Viddassala's efforts were sabotaged by Solas, especially knowing how Qunari works, which has been established since DAO.

 

 

Just like "the elves" is all elves from every time period, right?

 

You're shamelessly equivocating. We don't even know at this point what ancient elves were, only that they come from a completely different world. The Qunari were never like it.There are no other Qunari that we know of, nor any groups that consider themselves Qunari that don't fall under control of Par Vollen.

 

 

He never said they tried to invade. You are putting words in his mouth. Game facts do matter, because the facts state that the Qunari leadership disavowed Viddasala and her plot. This opens the possibility that the Qunari we fought were not authorized to do what they did.

 

We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war"

 

No where did he say they were authorized, or that they tried to invade. He said they were going to make them Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth, or a "Black Chant" type of Qun followers with their own version. They decided to make them real Qunari though. That in no way implies that these real Qunari were authorized by the Triumvirate.

 

He DID say it - the entire quote you've put here basically says it, and especially this part: No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war"

 

 

Besides, "going rogue" for Qunari could be something different from what you think it is. Viddasala was rogue by our standards, but to her she was fulfilling what the Qun demands. The Qun demands that the South be conquered. She was trying to instigate a war that would lead the Qunari people back into war. As far as she was concerned, she was following the Qun, even without the Triumvirate's authorization.

 

Really, you're just trying to split hair on four now... and that's aside from the fact that such argumentation doesn't help your position in any way. Her "following the Qun in her own way" means nothing if what she does benefits the Qun - which is probably the exact reason why she was picked on this mission in the first place. Don't forget that the Qun hates wasting their tools - they've had problems with Gatt, who fully admits that he doesn't understands parts of the Qun and believes that he can change things in it he doesn't like, yet they still use him as as a prominent spy.

 

It was the exact same with Iron Bull, who was already considered Tal Vashoth by some of Ben Hassarath - yet he wasn't a Tal Vashoth until he's chosen loyalty to his men and Inquisitor over the Qunari. 

 

And Viddasala has never done that. Till the end she was loyal and determined to fulfill her mission, or capture and kill those responsible for its failure.

 

 

That is Varric's opinion, not canon.

 

 

Varric's "opinion" (technically it's not an opinion, he simply relates to Inquisitor what happened) way more canon than your opinion.

 

Also - is it also Arishok's opinion to say that he's lost no Qunari to Tal-Vashoth? No, that's a pure example of Qunari position on failure.

 

 

No one disputes that they will play dirty to win, but just because they will play dirty doesn't mean they played dirty in the case of Trespasser.

 

Yes it does. Especially that we have enough evidence to suggest that they, in fact, did. Even you sort of backed away into saying that Viddasala was - at least at some point - authorized by the Qun, only she went "rogue" sometime during the mission. Either way the Qun has sent her to organize an attack on the south and whether she went rogue or not, they disavow of actions they have at one point or another authorized or supported. Like... there's no way you can salvage anything from this to support our claim.

 

 

Again, not in dispute. The question is if the Triumvirate tried to war with the South in Trespasser. The game facts indicate they didn't. Weekes does not say they did.

 

"So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war"

 

"With the Dragon's Breath disrupted and any hope of a swift victory dashed, the Qunari retreated back to the North."

 

"Their aggression caught the already unstable Imperium off guard. Tevinter was soon mired in a war many feared could spread across Thedas."

 

... At this point you're just standing in the corner shaking your head, fingers in ears and screaming NUH-UH!!!!, if you claim that no game facts or things said by Weekes don't indicate that the Qunari - as a whole - didn't intend to start a war...

 

 

Arishok wants to invade, but not through Dragon's Breath. He and the others of the Triumvirate would prefer to keep sending spies and take over one country at a time when Par Vollen is ready and able to conquer the South. They are not able to do so during Trespasser.

 

*facepalm*

 

They DID send spies. From the look of it those spies have worked on the South for years! Did you just forget what Iron Bull was - and still is if we don't pull him on our side??? And what do you think Inquisition is full of - bah, whole Orlais and Ferelden is full of??? And if Solas didn't disrupt their plan they'd have had blown Southern leadership to smithereens!! The bombs were already distributed all across the South!

 

And let's not forget one devastating fact that seriously undermines your claims - the bombs found in Winter Palace came with Inquisition. Not through eluvians; through spies planted in Inquisition by the Qun, and not Viddassala.

 

Also - where do you get information that the Triumvirate would prefer to take over one country at a time? I mean, aside from the fact that it doesn't matter at all? Whether they'd conquer the South in one clean swoop or methodically doesn't change the fact that the chaos at the top would make it incredibly easy to pick each country apart. Don't forget that this is basically how Inquisition rose to power - nobody in the South could really stop it.

 

 

 

The letter was not written at the Darvaarad. It was written in Par Vollen and then sent to the Inquisition at Halamshiral. Viddasala intercepted it. The letter was not a draft, it was the final document.

 

... Only you just assume that it was intercepted.

 

[RoseLawliet]

The letter was not written at the Darvaarad. It was written in Par Vollen and then sent to the Inquisition at Halamshiral. Viddasala intercepted it. The letter was not a draft, it was the final document.

 

So I guess I just can't see the Super Official Non-Replicatable Hologram of Authenticity watermark or something. I'm willing to say the letter was forged for the reason of time. I know people have already said that BioWare is horrible when it comes to time, distance, and logistics (and this is true, not arguing that), but this really feels like a contingency plan on the Viddasala's part. As for why it wasn't sent, didn't we just break in? She could have been in the middle of writing it (which wouldn't be unusual in a Dragon Age game as plenty of stuff happens fortuitously when the protagonist shows up) but retreated to the dragon room when we started killing her people.

[thats1evildude]

I think it is an official letter, but that fact is meaningless. Of course the qunari would label the Viddasala as a "rogue agent." At that point her operation is threatening to go t**s-up, and the qunari want to be able to save face if she fails. That doesn't mean they don't endorse her actions. Hell, they probably gave her that copy.

[Dai Grepher]

Nope. The nomenclature is clear. When the Inquisitor is talking to Iron Bull, Iron Bull works for "The Qunari".

"The Qunari" is a general term that could apply to anything and everything within the Qunari race and/or culture. You cannot correctly infer that Weekes was referring to the entire nation of Qunari people and believers.

When we do Iron Bull's loyalty mission, all the dialogue is about "the Qunari". Any casual gamer is going to see "the Qunari" as this nation of mind-controlled-ram people who want to destroy and subdue us all.

As you admitted, Weekes was not going into detail about minutia. He was only making a point about Iron Bull's reasons for turning on the Inquisitor.

Any subterfuge in the game about Viddasala is cleared up by Weekes who says:

No it isn't. Weekes only says the Qunari we fought were not a rogue faction. That says nothing about Viddasala.

Invading another country is one great way to start a war, by the way. Which is what the Qunari just tried to do in Trespasser.

But you said Weekes said "invade". I proved you wrong.

If you want to make a new point about the Qunari in Trespasser trying to invade, then make it. I do not dispute that the Qunari in Trespasser were trying to invade. I dispute whether they were authorized or not.

The homogenous "the Qunari" nomenclature comes from Bioware, who pretty much came up with Tal Vashoth for anybody who was considered no longer "the Qunari".

Viddasala did not consider herself "no longer Qunari", and the Triumvirate was unaware of her actions, thus could not deem her Tal-Vashoth during Trespasser.

... You realize this isn't helping you in any way?

That was in reply to Addictress.

The Soviet Union has disavowed any connection to the Katyń massacre... didn't change the fact that they've actually done it.

I do not deny the possibility that the Triumvirate authorized Dragon's Breath. I am merely demanding proof that they authorized it.

As it stands, we only have proof that they were not involved in it and had no knowledge of it.

We have hundreds other IRL examples of governments disavowing actions of their armies or agents and all things point to the Qunari doing the exact same thing after Viddassala's efforts were sabotaged by Solas.

But if they truly knew nothing of Viddasala's plan they would disavow it in that case too, would they not? So unless you have proof that they knew about it or authorized it, you cannot use their disavowal as evidence of their involvement.

By the way, I do not use it as proof they weren't involved. My proof is the letter as well as Viddasala's reaction to it.

You're shamelessly equivocating. We don't even know at this point what ancient elves were, only that they come from a completely different world. The Qunari were never like it.There are no other Qunari that we know of, nor any groups that consider themselves Qunari that don't fall under control of Par Vollen.

The Arishok and his men in DA2.

And the point was that "the [race]" is too much of a general term. So Weekes saying "the Qunari" does not necessarily implicate all Qunari or the Qunari leadership.

He DID say it - the entire quote you've put here basically says it,

What do you mean "basically" says it? Either it says it or it doesn't. Weekes never used the word "invade". So he didn't say it. You are putting words in his mouth.

let's have the Qunari start a war

First, the Qunari didn't actually start a war, so his statement was more hyperbole in that sense. Second, we have already discussed that "the Qunari" might refer only to the Qunari we fought in Trespasser, not the entire Qunari people or their leadership. And no one disputes that the Qunari in Trespasser were real Qunari. The question is if their actions were authorized.

[Dai Grepher]

Really, you're just trying to split hair on four and that's aside from the fact that such argumentation doesn't help your position in any way.

The reply you quoted was to a different member about a point she posted. My full argument is something different, and you have yet to refute that. I am not splitting hairs. I am observing the actual words Weekes used and pointing out that nothing he said disproves the possibility that the Triumvirate did not authorize Dragon's Breath.

Her "following the Qun in her own way" means nothing if this is what she does benefits the Qun - which is probably the exact reason why she was picked on this mission.

I disagree. She was also researching the Veil and how to give saarebas the ability to duplicate that effect. Why would the Triumvirate trust her to direct Dragon's Breath while she is cavorting with unrestrained saarebas and opening all of her people up to spirits? That makes no sense, and it has nothing to do with attacking the South. The Qunari leadership would never trust her with something so important, at least not while she has divided her attention among other things.

Besides, Viddasala is not supposed to be a director of military matters. There should have been a Sten in there somewhere giving orders for troop movements. Viddasala is not supposed to be a leader of military actions. She's not supposed to be making gaatlok either, yet she was doing both.

Don't forget that the Qun hates wasting their tools - they've had problems with Gatt, who fully admits that he doesn't understands part of the Qun, yet they still use him as as a prominent spy.

And what does that say about their system? That anyone can act on their own at any time without authorization if they choose to.

Tallis did this as well in MotA. Her superiors did not approve her suggestion to kill Salit. So she went off on her own and did it anyway. Is she a rogue? Maybe, maybe not. But she wasn't authorized, just as Viddasala wasn't authorized.

It was the exact same with Iron Bull, who was already considered Tal Vashoth by some of Ben Hassarath - yet he wasn't a Tal Vashoth until he's chosen loyalty to his men and Inquisitor over the Qunari.

He was suspected of being Tal-Vashoth. He didn't become Tal-Vashoth until declared so by his superiors, though Gatt suggests he would be declaring himself Tal-Vashoth. Sometimes, a Qunari who acts against the Qun will be given another chance after being sent to re-education. So it really is up to the higher ranking officers.

And Viddasala has never done that. Till the end she was loyal and determined to fulfill her mission, or capture and kill those responsible for its failure.

Viddasala went rogue the moment she took it upon herself to attack the South.

Varric's "opinion" (technically it's not an opinion, he simply relates to Inquisitor what happened) way more canon than your opinion.

Also - is it also Arishok's opinion to say that he's lost no Qunari to Tal-Vashoth? No, that's a pure example of Qunari position on failure.

I didn't post my opinion. I posted a link to information about the Ariqun and Arigena disavowing the Arishok's actions in Kirkwall.

Irrelevant to this discussion.

Yes it does.

No it doesn't. That they play dirty in some cases does not mean the play dirty in all cases, or in the case of Trespasser. You are making a Hasty Generalization.

Especially that we have enough evidence to suggest that they, in fact, did.

What evidence do you have that they played dirty in the case of Trespasser?

Even you sort of backed away into saying that Viddasala was - at least at some point - authorized by the Qun, only she went "rogue" sometime during the duration of the mission.

My position has always been that Viddasala was a true Qunari up to the point she decided to launch Dragon's Breath, which was her plan and hers alone, without authorization from the Triumvirate. She went rogue at that point, but would still be considered a Qunari because she was acting covertly. The Triumvirate did not know of her treachery. Also, the Qunari under her were merely following orders from one they thought was their superior. So they were not rogue Qunari.

Either way the Qun has sent her to organize an attack on the south and whether she went rogue or not, they disavow of actions they have at one point or another authorized or supported.

Do you even have an example of them doing this?

[Dai Grepher]

Like... there's no way you can salvage anything form this.

No. The fact remains that you have no evidence that the Triumvirate knew anything about Dragon's Breath or authorized it.

"So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war"

That does not implicate the Triumvirate. It implicates only the Qunari we saw in Trespasser.

"With the Dragon's Breath disrupted and any hope of a swift victory dashed, the Qunari retreated back to the North."

The Qunari it refers to were those working under Viddasala.

"Their aggression caught the already unstable Imperium off guard. Tevinter was soon mired in a war many feared could spread across Thedas."

Completely irrelevant to this discussion.

... At this point you're just standing in the corner shaking your head, fingers in ears and screaming NUH-UH!!!!, if you claim that no game facts or things said by Weekes don't indicate that the Qunari - as a whole - didn't intend to start a war...

By your standard this would apply to the Arishok in DA2 and Tallis. Any Qunari agent acting on their own would then become authorized by the Triumvirate by default even without authorization.

This should also mean that the Weisshaupt tried to destroy all of Orlais with a demon army, even though it was only a large group of Grey Wardens who had been deceived and repurposed.

You are taking one statement by Weekes that refers to a specific group of Qunari and you are misapplying it to all of Qunari society and the Triumvirate.

They DID send spies. From the look of it those spies have worked on the South for years! Did you just forget...

What are you arguing about? I confirmed that the Triumvirate was sending spies. My point is that the Triumvirate's plan to take the South would involve infiltration and open warfare one country at a time, NOT Dragon's Breath.

if Solas didn't disrupt their plan they'd have had blown Southern leadership to smithereens!! The bombs were already distributed all across the South!

Debatable, but a different debate for another time.

Also - where do you get information that the Triumvirate would prefer to take over one country at a time?

http://dragonage.wik...Sten#Background

In the campaign's aftermath, the young beresaad officer voiced concerns to the Arishok regarding the Qunari strategy to Tevinter. The argument "went on for some time and was notable, not only because Qunari argue so rarely, but because it is unheard of for an officer of any rank to disagree with the Arishok".[2] The young vanguard believed the mainland could not be taken by force, and the antaam should devote more of its resources to gathering information if they were ever to secure victory in the south. The Arishok dismissed the notion, but it nevertheless startled the Tevinter spy present; for the Qunari learning subtlety or political ability presented a worrying thought.

This is allegedly from WoT2, though that book's accuracy is questionable.

In any case, a strategy of infiltration and regular advancement is preferable to a scattered attack on random lords.

I mean, aside from the fact that it doesn't matter at all?

It matters because it shows what the Triumvirate's REAL plan is, and discounts Dragon's Breath as something they would authorize.

Whether they'd conquer the South in one clean swoop or methodically doesn't change the fact that the chaos at the top would make it incredibly easy to pick each country apart. Don't forget that this is basically how Inquisition rose to power.

No it isn't. The Inquisition rose to power slowly after the Divine issued an edict reestablishing it.

Dragon's Breath, even if successful, would not have led to Par Vollen trying to invade the South. Par Vollen was not ready for a war. It can't even beat Tevinter alone. Conquering the South was impossible during Trespasser. Also, eliminating the leaders in the South would only cause new leaders to replace them.

... Only you just assume that it was intercepted.

The game proves it. I posted the evidence already. Josephine's letter and the Triumvirate's reply are found in the Darvaarad. Viddasala intercepted it.

[Almostfaceman]

@Dai Grepher - you take obtuseness to a whole new level. The context of the conversation with Weekes was clearly "was this officially the Qunari attacking Thedas or just some rogue faction?" He answers this clearly. 

 

Judging by the responses in this thread, the only person you've convinced you're right, is you. For good reason, your arguments are completely ridiculous. 

 

I'll post this again for anyone new to the thread, because Weeke's own words totally destroy your position. 

 

"We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war,"

[thesuperdarkone2]

The denial is real

[Hanako Ikezawa]

@Dai Grepher - you take obtuseness to a whole new level. 

Not directed at me, but I always think this when someone calls somebody obtuse. 

[Steelcan]

The denial is real

I'm inclined to agree

[Dai Grepher]

So I guess I just can't see the Super Official Non-Replicatable Hologram of Authenticity watermark or something. I'm willing to say the letter was forged for the reason of time.

Let me see if I have this all lined up...

Viddasala intercepted a letter to the Triumvirate, even though the Triumvirate authorized Dragon's Breath.

She did this with all of Hissrad's letters as well and did not reply to those.

But Viddasala forged a reply letter to Josephine's and impersonated the Triumvirate even though the Triumvirate was perfectly capable of writing their own reply.

She did this in order to assure the Inquisition that the Triumvirate did not authorize her to attack the South, and thus the South should not see this as an act of war.

The Viddasala signed it as being from the Triumvirate.

And then she balled it up and left it on her desk.

Is that what you are suggesting happened?

I know people have already said that BioWare is horrible when it comes to time, distance, and logistics (and this is true, not arguing that), but this really feels like a contingency plan on the Viddasala's part.

One that she didn't carry out?

As for why it wasn't sent, didn't we just break in? She could have been in the middle of writing it (which wouldn't be unusual in a Dragon Age game as plenty of stuff happens fortuitously when the protagonist shows up) but retreated to the dragon room when we started killing her people.

But it was finished. If the letter hadn't been finished, THEN that would show that she was writing it. But it was finished. Why didn't she send it? And what does the Inquisitor breaking in have to do with anything? The Inquisition would still need to be deceived, would it not? And if she had no time to send it, why did she have time to ball it up?

I think it is an official letter, but that fact is meaningless. Of course the qunari would label the Viddasala as a "rogue agent."

But you can't rule out that she was disavowed because she was unauthorized.

At that point her operation is threatening to go t**s-up, and the qunari want to be able to save face if she fails. That doesn't mean they don't endorse her actions. Hell, they probably gave her that copy.

And she balled it up why? Because she wasn't authorized. She knew she had been exposed to her superiors.

[thats1evildude]

She ballsed it up because of Solas' interference. He attacked her operations and his spies tipped off the Inquisition.

[Dai Grepher]

@Dai Grepher - you take obtuseness to a whole new level. The context of the conversation with Weekes was clearly "was this officially the Qunari attacking Thedas or just some rogue faction?" He answers this clearly.

No it wasn't. The question was about Iron Bull turning on the Inquisitor. The question and answer had nothing to do with Dragon's Breath being authorized or not. You are imagining statements that aren't there, as you proved when you claimed Weekes said something about an invasion.

Judging by the responses in this thread, the only person you've convinced you're right, is you. For good reason, your arguments are completely ridiculous.

Then try to refute one of them if you can. I am not beyond convincing. Show me proof.

I'll post this again for anyone new to the thread, because Weeke's own words totally destroy your position.
 
"We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war,"

I never took the position that they were a rogue faction. They were official Qunari led by one rogue agent who was acting without authorization. Weekes' statement does not disprove this.

I'm inclined to agree

I deny conjecture. I demand proof.

[Dai Grepher]

She ballsed it up because of Solas' interference. He attacked her operations and his spies tipped off the Inquisition.

And why would that make her angry at the Triumvirate's letter? She knew that Solas interfered long before this and that the Inquisition knew of the plot. She would have no reason to be angry with the Triumvirate's deception letter. She would have simply passed it on as intended.

[Almostfaceman]

I never took the position that they were a rogue faction. They were official Qunari led by one rogue agent who was acting without authorization. Weekes' statement does not disprove this.
 

 

 

That's a rogue faction. Your position is hair-splitting nonsense. 

 

Weeke's had the opportunity to say, "no, that was a group led by a rogue. The group doesn't represent the Qunari." 

 

Instead he said:

 

"We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war,"

[Almostfaceman]

I'll take it even one step further.

 

What's the difference between a group consisting entirely of rogues, acting on their own outside official authority, getting rogue results... versus a group led by a rogue, followed by unwitting nit-wits, getting rogue results unsanctioned by the official authority?

 

That's right, both groups actions end in rogue results unsanctioned by official authority.

 

So, the results are the same and the differences in the group are inconsequential. The official authority would be pissed at either group. 

 

This is what I mean by hair-splitting nonsense. 

[thats1evildude]

And why would that make her angry at the Triumvirate's letter? She knew that Solas interfered long before this and that the Inquisition knew of the plot. She would have no reason to be angry with the Triumvirate's deception letter. She would have simply passed it on as intended.

Because they were, in a sense, betraying her. She was acting under their orders and they were labelling her a "rogue agent."