1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

The small group we fought with in Trespasser couldn't make war on anything.

Oh no, they could make war. They couldn't win one. But they could start one. But we stopped them. Way to go us.

And Iron Bull, loyal to the Qun, wouldn't give two spits about them. At best it would be some insignificant skirmish. The Qunari are going to war, just like Weeks said and the group in Trespasser was just a small part of the start of that war.

Ah, and yet Hissrad didn't give two spits about them as he cut them down one after another.

If Weeke's wanted to get us excited about some rogue faction (Tal'Vashoth) going to war with Thedas, he's have said there was a particular group of Tal'Vashoth going to war with Thedas. And again, Iron Bull wouldn't join a Tal'Vashoth group working outside of the Qunari. Since he works for them and is not Tal'Vashoth.

What are you talking about? The Qunari we fought in Trespasser wasn't a rogue faction. Those were real Qunari.

The catch is that those real Qunari were not authorized by the Triumvirate to start any wars or attack the South.

I read Weekes' interview and he did confirm it. Have you even asked him on Twitter?

No he didn't. And have you asked him on Twitter?

Also, politicians and businessmen lie. Never forget that.

And what if I told you that I heard from a reliable source that you work in Trump's campaign? Would you disavow that? Yes or no?

No Weekes was explaining why Iron Bull goes against the Inquisitor and it certainly wouldn't be for any group of Tal'Vashoth.

I never wrote they were a group of Tal-Vashoth. Are you feeling okay?

Why Hissrad chose to obey Viddasala is explained by Weeke's

No it isn't. He never mentions Viddasala and he never explains Hissrad's thought process. He only says that you encouraged him to remain loyal to the Qun. That does not imply anything about what Hissrad was thinking in that moment.

Viddasala is The Qunari, just like Hissrad. Him being a spy working for the Qunari, he'd know what's what.

Yet he murdered dozens of real Qunari to get there. What a Tal-Vashoth... just like his buddy Viddasala.

Your convoluted logic ignores what Weeke's is telling us and ignores the simplest explanation for what happens.

No, you're just making things up and attributing your own ideas to Weekes.

[Almostfaceman]

What are you talking about? The Qunari we fought in Trespasser wasn't a rogue faction. Those were real Qunari.
 

 

Anybody who's playing Iron Bull only cares about two things and only has two options. Make Iron Bull Tal'Vashoth or keep Iron Bull loyal to the Qunari. Weeke's explains the situation in those terms. He doesn't have to say anything more specific than that. Iron Bull's choices set the context for the conversation he has when explaining the consequences of those two choices.

 

Any explanations you make outside of those two choices are outside the context of the conversation and don't apply. 

 

Iron Bull isn't going to try to harm the Inquisitor until he's told to do so. Which is what happens, in Trespasser. One who is loyal to the Qunari would attack the Inquisitor at any time, if ordered. As he does, in Trespasser. 

[Almostfaceman]

What are you talking about? The Qunari we fought in Trespasser wasn't a rogue faction. Those were real Qunari.

The catch is that those real Qunari were not authorized by the Triumvirate to start any wars or attack the South.
 

 

They're not real Qunari if they're acting outside the will of their leadership. When they do that they become Tal'Vashoth. Your distinction is incorrect. 

[Dai Grepher]

Again, I shall quote from Weekes' own mouth... and what I previously highlighted  because it made it clear it was an invasion attempt.
 
"If we're going to say the Qunari are going to start a war, lets have the Qunari start a war."

"Start a war" does not equal "invasion attempt".
 

The Qunari intended to use the Eluvians to give them...

Ah ah, now you're going outside of Weekes' statements and pointing to the game itself. You claimed that Weekes said this was an invasion attempt. The quote you posted does not mention anything of an invasion.

a beachhead, as well as giving them a chance to get their people quickly into position to launch a surgical strike that would remove all the key players and cripple the southern leadership. In addition to the Exalted Council, we are told that they found Gaatlok in the Denerim royal palace, as well other important, making it obvious this was a highly co-ordinated plan that would have left the South completely rudderless and unprepared when the Qunari arrived in force.

Debatable, but a debate for another thread. There were no Qunari forces ready to occupy. Viddasala's plan was a pipe dream. It was not highly coordinated. Viddasala was only using a few dozen spies she was able to take control of. There is no way they could have hit every court in the South. Just the major ones.

Yeah... maybe you're right, none of this sounds at all like what you'd do if you're planning an invasion or a war. Getting rid of all your enemies in one single fell swoop doesn't help you take over.

No, it doesn't. Leaders are replaced almost instantly. Towns are put on high alert. People come together in times of crisis. Without ground troops camped and ready to strike, the chaos will resolve itself within a day or so. Par Vollen had no forces in place. Viddasala was gambling on the Triumvirate sending warships and soldiers. Setting up supply lines. And don't forget, this would have to happen everywhere at once against every nation. Otherwise, there would be an Exalted March, and all nations would band together. Par Vollen can't even take Tevinter alone.

And let's forget that conversation with Leliana pointing out such a thing wouldn't only work, but is what Corypheus should have done from the start.

I think all of Inquisition and especially Trespasser proved well enough that Leliana is incompetent.

Yeah, I can see no benefit to the Qunari employing this strategy at all... not when it so easily could have worked?

So easily could have gone wrong. What if the magic mirror maze stops working? What if the leaders don't die from the gaatlok because the mix wasn't strong enough or the walls too strong? What if the Viddathari spies mess up, or get caught? What if the leaders die and are replaced by hardened war veterans who are more capable than they? How will the Qunari sustain the assault? How will they spread to every corner of even Ferelden, let alone the Free Marches, Orlais, and Nevarra? There aren't enough Qunari in Par Vollen to do this.

The only strategy that would work is taking over one country at a time, when you are ready for world war, and over the course of decades.

Have you even asked Weekes yet via Twitter? Maybe that should settle your mind. Or not. Your choice.

My mind is settled. I listened to Weekes' interview. He didn't contradict what the game suggests about Viddasala not being authorized.

Groundless conjecture.

It's groundless conjecture that Hissrad made a choice based on his own reasoning?

Hissrad doesn't just think Viddasala is authorized, Weekes tells us she is.

No he doesn't.

Like I explained. That's the simplest explanation for why Iron Bull does what he does.

No it's not.

[Dai Grepher]

Anybody who's playing Iron Bull only cares about two things and only has two options. Make Iron Bull Tal'Vashoth or keep Iron Bull loyal to the Qunari. Weeke's explains the situation in those terms. He doesn't have to say anything more specific than that.

So you admit he didn't explain Hissrad's thought process on that decision. Thanks for agreeing with me.

Iron Bull's choices set the context for the conversation he has when explaining the consequences of those two choices.
 
Any explanations you make outside of those two choices are outside the context of the conversation and don't apply.

Good thing my explanation is consistent with Weekes' statement then. Hissrad betrays you because he is blindly loyal to the Qun.

Iron Bull isn't going to try to harm the Inquisitor until he's told to do so. Which is what happens, in Trespasser. One who is loyal to the Qunari would attack the Inquisitor at any time, if ordered. As he does, in Trespasser.

Except in the Vir Dirthara when Viddasala says, "Kill the Inquisitor, then meet me at the Darvaarad." He hears that and thinks, "Right... I will kill my fellow Qunari, keep the Inquisitor alive, and help him get to the Darvaarad so we can foil this official Qunari operation, or my title isn't Hissrad!"

Cool story bro.

They're not real Qunari if they're acting outside the will of their leadership. When they do that they become Tal'Vashoth. Your distinction is incorrect.

Wrong. I proved this wasn't the case. The Arishok led real Qunari into unauthorized acts. They were not Tal-Vashoth for following the Arishok's orders. Tallis took matters into her own hands in MotA, and wasn't Tal-Vashoth.

[Sifr]

Yet he murdered dozens of real Qunari to get there. What a Tal-Vashoth... just like his buddy Viddasala.

 

If the mission requires it, the Qunari are fine treating their own people as disposable and necessary casualties.

 

We saw this in DA2, when the Arishok allows some of his own men to be killed while guarding a fake batch of Gaatlok, explaining that it was necessary because the thief wouldn't have believed the target was real if it was left unguarded. By leaving a token force, it gave the illusion of importance.

 

Furthermore, the Arishok's reaction to Hawke being forced to kill the Arvaraad who were trying to apprehend Saarebas is to comment that as long as the mission was completed and Saarebas is dead, he doesn't care. He's actually more impressed than mad that Hawke managed to best his soldiers.

 

"Start a war" does not equal "invasion attempt".

Ah ah, now you're going outside of Weekes' statements and pointing to the game itself. You claimed that Weekes said this was an invasion attempt. The quote you posted does not mention anything of an invasion.

 

I'm curious how in your mind, mass assassination via dragon's breathe and launching an invasion attempt that is barely thwarted, something they have made it clear they've been planning to do for the past three games, do not constitute them wanting to start a war?

 

Debatable, but a debate for another thread. There were no Qunari forces ready to occupy. Viddasala's plan was a pipe dream. It was not highly coordinated. Viddasala was only using a few dozen spies she was able to take control of. There is no way they could have hit every court in the South. Just the major ones.

No, it doesn't. Leaders are replaced almost instantly. Towns are put on high alert. People come together in times of crisis. Without ground troops camped and ready to strike, the chaos will resolve itself within a day or so. Par Vollen had no forces in place. Viddasala was gambling on the Triumvirate sending warships and soldiers. Setting up supply lines. And don't forget, this would have to happen everywhere at once against every nation. Otherwise, there would be an Exalted March, and all nations would band together. Par Vollen can't even take Tevinter alone.

 

*Points to the network of magic mirrors that span most of Thedas*

 

Yes, we have no idea how they could get their army rapidly deployed to numerous locations around the South, allowing them numerous beachheads on multiple fronts, before anyone even knows what's happening. It's not like there's an entire portal network that's sitting around that they've mapped a section of to rather good effect.

 

So easily could have gone wrong. What if the magic mirror maze stops working? What if the leaders don't die from the gaatlok because the mix wasn't strong enough or the walls too strong? What if the Viddathari spies mess up, or get caught? What if the leaders die and are replaced by hardened war veterans who are more capable than they? How will the Qunari sustain the assault? How will they spread to every corner of even Ferelden, let alone the Free Marches, Orlais, and Nevarra? There aren't enough Qunari in Par Vollen to do this.

 

*Points to the Eluvian network again*

 

Even if the gaatlok doesn't go off and kill everyone important, that's still a lot of chaos and panic before people know what's going on. Then you have all the spies and sleeper cells they've placed around Thedas, who would be in position to sabotage various targets, as well as providing undercover intelligence that will make it harder for anyone to organise a resistance movement.

 

The only strategy that would work is taking over one country at a time, when you are ready for world war, and over the course of decades.

 

They've had three hundred years or so to prepare their invasion plans, you really think they've been idly twiddling their thumbs all this time and not considering a myriad of ways they might go about it?

[Almostfaceman]

Wrong. I proved this wasn't the case. The Arishok led real Qunari into unauthorized acts. They were not Tal-Vashoth for following the Arishok's orders. Tallis took matters into her own hands in MotA, and wasn't Tal-Vashoth.

 

Except they did all become Tal-Vashoth. They were either re-educated and brought back into the Qun (anybody who acts against the leadership is outside the Qun) or they were killed. 

[Almostfaceman]

So you admit he didn't explain Hissrad's thought process on that decision. Thanks for agreeing with me.
 

 

Well you can say I admitted something, but it doesn't make it true, unless you explain how I admitted something. 

 

So far, you've said the leader of the group in Trespasser was Tal'Vashoth and the minions were not Tal'Vashoth. I don't agree with that. So far you've said Iron Bull followed the leader of the group in Trespasser because of unknown reasons. I don't agree with that either. He followed orders of the Qunari. If he's loyal to the Qun. 

[Almostfaceman]

Except in the Vir Dirthara when Viddasala says, "Kill the Inquisitor, then meet me at the Darvaarad." He hears that and thinks, "Right... I will kill my fellow Qunari, keep the Inquisitor alive, and help him get to the Darvaarad so we can foil this official Qunari operation, or my title isn't Hissrad!"

Cool story bro.
 

 

Except he only kills his fellow Qunari up to a point, then he turns on the Inquisitor. Trying to read too much into this is like trying to explain why Shepard doesn't have a choice to reject Cerberus in ME2. Any confusion about this is cleared up by Weekes, who explains that Iron Bull joins with an official Qunari group, following the Qun. 

[Almostfaceman]

Good thing my explanation is consistent with Weekes' statement then. Hissrad betrays you because he is blindly loyal to the Qun.
 

 

A lot of people with more than basic reading comprehension are pointing out to you that your explanation isn't consistent with what Weeke's said. Including me. 

[Sifr]

In the interests of being fair and throwing a bone to Dai Grepher...

 

I suppose it might be possible that Viddasala was authorised to launch the invasion, but upon the Inquisitor discovering the plot, it was rapidly called off by the Triumvirate who then went into full spin mode and disavowed ever having sanctioned it.

 

At which point she actually did go rogue, believing that it was in the best interests of the Qunari and the future of Thedas to carry it out, so did not tell her underlings that the mission had been aborted by their superiors. That would fit the events and scenario presented in Trespasser, as well as Bull's comments about her behaviour and the former Templar we meet in the Deep Roads who thinks she's gone off the deep end.

 

But honestly, I still think the whole thing was sanctioned from the start to finish and what Weekes has said definitely comes across as the direction that he and the rest of the writers were going with when they wrote it.

[Almostfaceman]

It's groundless conjecture that Hissrad made a choice based on his own reasoning?
 

 

Yup. He's a tool of the Qun, he doesn't make choices outside of his role. Which is consistent with what Weeke's says because the Qunari have set themselves against the Inquisitor. Iron Bull follows his role in opposing the Inquisitor. "His own reasoning" doesn't come into play. 

[Almostfaceman]

In the interests of being fair and throwing a bone to Dai Grepher...

 

I suppose it might be possible that Viddasala was authorised to launch the invasion, but upon the Inquisitor discovering the plot, it was rapidly called off by the Triumvirate who then went into full spin mode and disavowed ever having sanctioned it.

 

At which point she actually did go rogue, believing that it was in the best interests of the Qunari and the future of Thedas to carry it out, so did not tell her underlings that the mission had been aborted by their superiors. That would fit well into how the events and scenario was presented in Trespasser.

 

But honestly, I still think the whole thing was sanctioned from the start to finish and what Weekes has said definitely comes across as the direction that he and the rest of the writers were going with when they wrote it.

 

I think this is why Weeke's said what he said, to clear up any confusion wrought by Trespasser. Why he wanted to clear things up, I don't know. But he did. 

[Al Foley]

I think this is why Weeke's said what he said, to clear up any confusion wrought by Trespasser. Why he wanted to clear things up, I don't know. But he did. 

Probably because he read these forums.

[Sifr]

I think this is why Weeke's said what he said, to clear up any confusion wrought by Trespasser. Why he wanted to clear things up, I don't know. But he did. 

 

Maybe he knew we'd be arguing about it.

 

In the Biofan interview he commented on how he'd seen people discussing a Qun-loyal Bull's betrayal and how some forum goers were in denial or claiming that "Bull wouldn't do that...", leading everyone else to state the obvious, "Of course he would, what did you think  would happen?"

 

The writers know we bicker, that's part of why a lot of them (sadly) avoid the forums.

[Reznore57]

Maybe he knew we'd be arguing about it.

 

In the Biofan interview he commented on how he'd seen people discussing a Qun-loyal Bull's betrayal and how some forum goers were in denial or claiming that "Bull wouldn't do that...", leading everyone else to state the obvious, "Of course he would, what did you think  would happen?"

 

The writers know we bicker, that's part of why a lot of them (sadly) avoid the forums.

 

I don't think they care about people bickering about their lore , I think it's mostly criticism, fair or unfair.

I know people say but it's "constructive critism"! , but no one sane wants to read 2 years content of people nitpicking their work .

[Serza]

So, if Nazi Germany merely ATTEMPTED an invasion into Poland in September 39 instead of succeeding, they wouldn't be starting a war?

[Almostfaceman]

So, if Nazi Germany merely ATTEMPTED an invasion into Poland in September 39 instead of succeeding, they wouldn't be starting a war?

 

Stahp it with the logic. 

[Serza]

I know. It's too much for BSN. Maybe that's why logic is so much fun...

[midnight tea]

So, if Nazi Germany merely ATTEMPTED an invasion into Poland in September 39 instead of succeeding, they wouldn't be starting a war?

 

Add to that making non-aggression pacts with Soviets (Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact) which also had a secret protocol about dividing Eastern European countries between one another (btw. if Inquisitor allied with Qunari, there are rumors that that they've asked Divine Victoria for assistance), the existence of which was denied by Soviets up until 1989.... Plus the fact that the Nazis later betrayed Russians when they thought they no longer need them.

 

... Like... is there any doubt what Qunari politics is based on? It makes me laugh whenever somebody questions Qunari politics as implausible or 'cartoonish' when we have stark examples of it in real life from less than a century ago.

[Serza]

Add to that making non-aggression pacts with Soviets (Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact) which also had a secret protocol about dividing Eastern European countries between one another (btw. if Inquisitor allied with Qunari, there are rumors that that they've asked Divine Victoria for assistance), the existence of which was denied by Soviets up until 1989.... Plus the fact that the Nazis later betrayed Russians when they thought they no longer need them.

 

... Like... is there any doubt what Qunari politics is based on? It makes me laugh whenever somebody questions Qunari politics as implausible or 'cartoonish' when we have stark examples of it in real life from less than a century ago.

 

Oh, don't forget my favorite part. About how the Soviets conveniently forgot an alliance a year prior.

 

Same with the French, those back-stabbing frog-eaters. Maybe that's why I hate Orlais so much.

[robertthebard]

No, he didn't say it was an invasion attempt. You are imagining that.

Had to stop you right here, again, because he did in fact say that.

That said, when we got to the Qunari, we kicked around different ways to do it. We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it.

He said it right here. This is irrefutable evidence, as Mr. Weekes is Word of God. Thrash about some more, it's still amusing.

[midnight tea]

He said it right here. This is irrefutable evidence, as Mr. Weekes is Word of God. Thrash about some more, it's still amusing.

 

LOL, watch out - since Weekes used the word war instead of invasion, it means that he never said that the Qunari want to start an invasion!

 

.... This is such a bizarre piece of logic. If I followed it I could believe pretty much everything I'd like... like the "fact" that Inquisitor is a banana. Hey, nobody in game or from devs denied that Inky is a banana! So you can't prove that he/she isn't!

[lynroy]

Head canon accepted: Inquisitor is a banana.

[IllustriousT]

LOL, watch out - since Weekes used the word war instead of invasion, it means that he never said that the Qunari want to start an invasion!

 

.... This is such a bizarre piece of logic. If I followed it I could believe pretty much everything I'd like... like the "fact" that Inquisitor is a banana. Hey, nobody in game or from devs denied that Inky is a banana! So you can't prove that he/she isn't!

 

 Too funny.