1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

Even if Par Vollen authorised Dragon Breath, at some point during her mission, the Vidassala might have taken actions that the Triumvirate explicitly forbade.

She might have acted against her orders in Trespasser. And the game does give one piece of ambiguous evidence that that might have been the case: the crumpled paper she threw away containing the answer of the Triumvirate to her question of whether she could proceed or not with a new phase of her mission, a phase she had planned on her own, it seems.

Well, that letter was from the Triumvirate to Josephine, not to Viddasala. She intercepted it, read it, and then discarded it. This reaction shows that she was unauthorized.

Also, Josephine's letter is what made the Triumvirate aware of Viddasala's actions, and the letter stated nothing except the placement of gaatlok barrels at the palace. So the Triumvirate's response to that alone shows that even the placement of gaatlok was unauthorized. That's not even including feeding lyrium to saarebas or exposing themselves to spirits in the Shattered Library.

Have some people even considered the possibility that the Vidassala was in contact with one of the members of the Triumvirate who disagreed from the other two and secretly gave her the thumbs up for carrying out her plans for Dragon Breath?

I have. It's possible, but unlikely. The Ariqun is in authority over Viddasala, and would in theory be able to coordinate things between the different branches of the Ben-Hassrath. She would even be able to request soldiers from the antaam, as one of their roles is to protect agents in the field while they conduct their work. However, this would end at the completion of Dragon's Breath. An invasion would require the Arishok's direct involvement, and he likely would not have approved of Dragon's Breath at all. It's possible the Ariqun only planned to carry out Dragon's Breath, and then try to convince the Arishok and Arigena to get on board with an invasion after the damage was done. They might then be forced to go to war since the act would have provoked the South into war. But again, this is unlikely. I doubt the Ariqun would take such a risk. War strategy is left to the Arishok for a reason. He is the one most capable of determining the likely outcome of war. The Ariqun is not, especially if female.

Who says the Qunari government is a cohesive structure and without corruption? There might be infighting just as there is everywhere else in Thedas and we would know nothing of it.

There is. Debates were waged in Par Vollen afterward, indicating that corruption had been the case. Not necessarily from the Ariqun, but the Ariqun did fail to oversee Viddasala properly, leading to her actions being possible.

I have always pointed out, at the very least, Solas' actions showed that betrayal and corruption could strike anywhere, even within the Qunari government.

What's even more interesting is that you or I don't decide who is and isn't "real Qunari". Even the Arishok goofing around in Kirkwall doesn't decide if he's "real Qunari" or, to be more precise... following the Qun.

You know who decides who's following the Qun? The Triumvirate. There isn't room for personal interpretation. If a Qunari goes out and does something that the government says is "outside the Qun" they get re-educated. Or killed. Or they can escape and the Triumvirate declares them Tal'Vashoth.

Glad you finally came around on yet another issue.

So it doesn't matter if I think the Arishok was following the Qun. It doesn't matter if you think he was following the Qun.

Right, but he knew he wasn't following the Qun. He outright states that it was not his role to take Kirkwall. He did it anyway. He lost control. Like Sten did in Origins. And lo and behold he was disavowed by the Ariqun and Arigena for his actions.

It doesn't matter if the Arishok thinks he's following the Qun. The final word on that is the Triumvirate. Of course, because of the nature of cause and effect, this is decided after-the-fact. So, while we're in the middle of fighting them... YOU don't get to declare them "real" Qunari. That all depends on how the Triumvirate wants to handle things.

Right, and the Triumvirate can't decided it at that time either because they haven't investigated yet. They had only just been alerted to the situation by Josephine's letter. But they did at least resolve to capture Viddasala and investigate her actions. They never got the chance to capture her, and their investigation resulted in them disavowing her.

So according to the Triumvirate, Viddasala acted without authorization.

Iron Bull is the perfect example of this in action. If he goes against the Triumvirate, he gets declared Tal'Vashoth. Now, he doesn't even consider the option that they're wrong because he may have a different interpretation of the Qun. Nope, they say he's Tal'Vashoth. So he's Tal'Vashoth.

Thanks for agreeing with me again.

Have you even asked Weekes to begin with regarding about the Viddasala?

No.

[Dai Grepher]

I see, so in other words: Oops, but you can't backpedal on your position now.

I'm not backpedaling. I disproved you.

So Weekes said that they're going to start a war, but that they didn't start a war. The actual scenario is that they failed to start a war, because Solas exposed them. If not for that "intervention", Dragon's Breath succeeds, and the South, or what's left of it, is at war with the Qunari, er, I mean the rogue faction that launched Dragon's Breath, since you're claiming that, despite Weekes telling us that they're not an offshoot of an offshoot, they were in fact an offshoot.

Wrong. I wrote nothing of the sort. You are simply posting strawman arguments.

Weekes said "let's have the Qunari start a war". The Viddasala and the Qunari following her tried to start a war.

You claimed that Weekes said "invasion". I disproved you on that.

I never claimed they were a rogue group.

You're wrong.

Here's the problem, they're not your Qunari.

That is not one of my quotes. Seems you are imagining things again.

They belong to BW, and if the Lead Writer says they're doing something, they're doing something.

Yes, unless the actual DLC shows it not happening. There is no war with the Qunari at the end of Trespasser.

You can jockey around with semantics all day, obviously, but you're not going to convince us, or maybe it's really yourself that you're trying to convince, that Weekes didn't know what he was talking about.

I don't care about convincing you, just proving you wrong, which I accomplished. You are free to believe whatever headcanon you wish.

[thesuperdarkone2]

20 pages people. Think we can get to 50?

[Walter Black]

Anyone can cherry pick whatever lore suits their pre-conceived position; the real question is why do you *want* the Viddasala to be rogue or not. Off the top of my head, here a few reasons:

 

Pro: Bioware has been teasing a full Qunari invasion for years, and it's about time they pulled the trigger.

 

Con: With Solas and everything else going on in Tevinter, a proper Qunari storyline won't get the attention it deserves. Bioware should save the war for when it can be main focus, or at least B plot.

 

The war creates opportunity for the player to manipulate the various factions within the Qunari, maybe even change the Qun itself.

 

Except some of us have grown tired of the whole "Mary Sue who overthrows centuries of tradition with no consequence" plot. It breaks immersion and serves no narrative purpose except to enable Player power fantasy. Oh, and don't give me that crap about how "of course it's fantasy"; there's magic, which is essentially metaphoric window dressing, and then there is completely breaking the established tone and internal logic of the universe. Even a cursory glance at the lore revels plots that can override even the almighty Hero of Fereldan's impact. Not to mention that it shouldn't be so easy to destabilize the Qun, as their alien unity was one of the few things that actually made them interesting.

[Dai Grepher]

Personally I prefer that the rest of Thedas go to war with Par Vollen. But this isn't about what I prefer. It's about the facts. The facts indicate that the Triumvirate did not authorize Viddasala to attack the South.

[SandiKay0]

As far as I could tell you have based your theory of a rogue Viddasala on a crumpled letter to Josephine, and belive that she crumpled it because the triumvirate disavowed her actions. It is also plausible she crumpled the letter because the information it contained was that the inquisition had discovered the gaatlock before everything was in place.

Also Iron Bull doesn't always kill a ton of qunari. It is players choice there, however when he is left behind he does show up reguardless in Daarvaard. Which means he got some kind of order to do so. One would consider that he would be in the know of Dragons Breath, or he verified it himself before he acted on it. Since Viddasala was from another branch of Ben Hassrath like you stated before.

[Addictress]

Personally I prefer that the rest of Thedas go to war with Par Vollen. But this isn't about what I prefer. It's about the facts. The facts indicate that the Triumvirate did not authorize Viddasala to attack the South.

You keep shaking your fists and saying you've disproved everyone when you really haven't and the counter-points people have given to you in plain English were all valid.

[Dai Grepher]

As far as I could tell you have based your theory of a rogue Viddasala on a crumpled letter to Josephine, and belive that she crumpled it because the triumvirate disavowed her actions. It is also plausible she crumpled the letter because the information it contained was that the inquisition had discovered the gaatlock before everything was in place.

Also Iron Bull doesn't always kill a ton of qunari. It is players choice there, however when he is left behind he does show up reguardless in Daarvaard. Which means he got some kind of order to do so. One would consider that he would be in the know of Dragons Breath, or he verified it himself before he acted on it. Since Viddasala was from another branch of Ben Hassrath like you stated before.

Viddasala knew that the Inquisition had discovered and foiled the plot long before receiving the letter. Also, failing to pass the letter on to the Inquisition as intended shows that she was defying the Triumvirate. If the Triumvirate had authorized the mission, then their reply letter to Josephine was meant as subterfuge to deceive the Inquisition into not seeing the gaatlok as an act of war. By denying the letter's delivery, Viddasala prevented the deception, thus leaving the Inquisition with no option but to assume it was an act of war.

There is plenty of other evidence, but that isn't the point of this thread.

Hissrad can kill a ton of Qunari. That's all that matters. Also, the Qunari attack him on sight. Had he been in on anything, things wouldn't have began with the Qunari trying to kill him and the Inquisitor. Hissrad states that the Viddasala asked him to lend a hand. He got the order from her, and likely a viddathari spy delivered it, which means the spy would report back if Hissrad had refused the order or pretended to have never received it. So it's basically the same case as if you took him to the Darvaarad. But he certainly didn't confirm Viddasala's authorization with anyone above her, or even his own superior. There is no way he could contact them, nor could he contact the Triumvirate.

[Dai Grepher]

You keep shaking your fists and saying you've disproved everyone when you really haven't and the counter-points people have given to you in plain English were all valid.

No, robertthebard claimed Weekes said "invasion", when in fact the word "invasion" does not appear anywhere in his statements.

There are no counterpoints. I disproved their claims. Anything else is just their baseless conjecture about what they think Weekes meant in the interview.

[SandiKay0]

Viddasala knew that the Inquisition had discovered and foiled the plot long before receiving the letter. Also, failing to pass the letter on to the Inquisition as intended shows that she was defying the Triumvirate. If the Triumvirate had authorized the mission, then their reply letter to Josephine was meant as subterfuge to deceive the Inquisition into not seeing the gaatlok as an act of war. By denying the letter's delivery, Viddasala prevented the deception, thus leaving the Inquisition with no option but to assume it was an act of war.There is plenty of other evidence, but that isn't the point of this thread.Hissrad can kill a ton of Qunari. That's all that matters. Also, the Qunari attack him on sight. Had he been in on anything, things wouldn't have began with the Qunari trying to kill him and the Inquisitor. Hissrad states that the Viddasala asked him to lend a hand. He got the order from her, and likely a viddathari spy delivered it, which means the spy would report back in Hissrad had refused the order or pretended to have never received it. So it's basically the same case as if you took him to the Darvaarad. But he certainly didn't confirm Viddasala's authorization with anyone above her, or even his own superior. There is no way he could contact them, nor could he contact the Triumvirate.

All of this is supposition none are facts. You have an action you have given motive. It isn't shown that Josiphine hasn't received that information. It isn't shown that the Iron Bull couldn't have time. We don't know when she received that letter. All we know is it was crumpled in that room when we got there.

You have said that Iron Bull was afraid of becoming Tal Vashoth so he did what she told him to do. If Josiphine could get a letter to the Qunari leaders, so could Iron Bull, perhaps even sooner, since that was his assignment after all.

[Mistic]

Can't anyone just ask Weekes if the Viddasala was acting under the Triumvirate's orders? It should be easy to answer... unless it's going to become a plot point in the next game.

 

Otherwise we'll repeat the same circular arguments for 20 pages more. Dai Grepher won't accept any confirmation that leaves the slightest bit of ambiguity open to imagination.

[Almostfaceman]

Can't anyone just ask Weekes if the Viddasala was acting under the Triumvirate's orders? It should be easy to answer... unless it's going to become a plot point in the next game.

 

Otherwise we'll repeat the same circular arguments for 20 pages more. Dai Grepher won't accept any confirmation that leaves the slightest bit of ambiguity open to imagination.

 

If Weekes statement is convincing to you, that's all that really matters. Convincing Dai Grepher isn't really the goal of this thread. Nor should it be. Getting him to argue has been useful in illustrating how ridiculous one's outlook has to be to navigate around what Weekes plainly said. 

 

Getting egos and personalities involved does happen, but a threads utility comes in taking ideas and arguments and tossing them about for everyone's digestion. Are Dai Grepher's arguments compelling? You decide. Are other arguments compelling? You decide.

 

You can even remove the "circular nature" of the thread by reading just enough to get everyone's point... then ignoring the thread after that. Or by coming back and looking for anything "new". 

[Dai Grepher]

All of this is supposition none are facts.

I referenced my sources. Refute me if you can.
 

You have an action you have given motive. It isn't shown that Josiphine hasn't received that information.

Irrelevant. Viddasala didn't know if Josephine received the same information through some other means. For all Viddasala knew, that letter was the only reply back to Josephine. Therefore, denying its intended delivery is an act against the Triumvirate. Fact.
 

It isn't shown that the Iron Bull couldn't have time.

What do you mean "couldn't have time"? Time for what?
 

We don't know when she received that letter. All we know is it was crumpled in that room when we got there.

Yes we do. Josephine sent a letter to the Triumvirate. Her letter was included in the reply letter from the Triumvirate. Josephine's letter states that they found gaatlok barrels placed around the Winter Palace, and that the Inquisition demands to know the meaning of this. Thus, the letter must have been sent immediately after the gaatlok barrels were found.

This was before we went to the Vir Dirthara.

We then met Viddasala in the Vir Dirthara.

We then went back to the Winter Palace, and then to the Darvaarad.

But even before all this, Viddasala knew that we had discovered Dragon's Breath from Jerran. She knew we found orders on the antaam soldier in the elvhen ruins. She knew we discovered her plot near the start of the game.

So finding out that we managed to get a message to the Triumvirate should mean absolutely nothing to her if the operation was authorized the whole time. It wasn't. She was trying to hide it from the Triumvirate. We put her on blast. That's why she was mad.
 

You have said that Iron Bull was afraid of becoming Tal Vashoth so he did what she told him to do. If Josiphine could get a letter to the Qunari leaders, so could Iron Bull, perhaps even sooner, since that was his assignment after all.

Viddasala was intercepting all of Hissrad's letters because she knew he would contact his superiors at the first sign of trouble. Josephine mentions this in her letter, and that they received no reply back, and it was her letter that first informed the Triumvirate of Viddasala's plot. Viddasala failed to catch Josephine's letter because she had her own methods of contacting the Triumvirate that Viddasala was unaware of. Also, Viddasala was so focused on intercepting Hissrad's letters that she didn't expect Josephine to get one through by some other means.

[Dai Grepher]

Can't anyone just ask Weekes if the Viddasala was acting under the Triumvirate's orders? It should be easy to answer... unless it's going to become a plot point in the next game.

It might be. In which case I think that would pretty much confirm that she wasn't authorized, because they want to leave it ambiguous for a big reveal.
 

Otherwise we'll repeat the same circular arguments for 20 pages more. Dai Grepher won't accept any confirmation that leaves the slightest bit of ambiguity open to imagination.

Yes. So anyone who asks had better word their question carefully.

Did the Triumvirate authorize Dragon's Breath, or were they truly unknowledgeable of it because Viddasala was acting in secret?

[SandiKay0]

I referenced my sources. Refute me if you can.

 Viddasala was intercepting all of Hissrad's letters because she knew he would contact his superiors at the first sign of trouble. Josephine mentions this in her letter, and that they received no reply back, and it was her letter that first informed the Triumvirate of Viddasala's plot. Viddasala failed to catch Josephine's letter because she had her own methods of contacting the Triumvirate that Viddasala was unaware of. Also, Viddasala was so focused on intercepting Hissrad's letters that she didn't expect Josephine to get one through by some other means.

Please show me your sources.

[thats1evildude]

Can't anyone just ask Weekes if the Viddasala was acting under the Triumvirate's orders? It should be easy to answer... unless it's going to become a plot point in the next game.

Otherwise we'll repeat the same circular arguments for 20 pages more. Dai Grepher won't accept any confirmation that leaves the slightest bit of ambiguity open to imagination.

I've asked. I haven't gotten a response. If someone else wants to try, feel free.

[sniper_arrow]

No.

 

Well, that's your problem.

[sniper_arrow]

20 pages people. Think we can get to 50?

 

Until we hear a response from Weekes, Dai Gapher may eventually open a Part 2 thread.

[In Exile]

Viddasala was intercepting all of Hissrad's letters because she knew he would contact his superiors at the first sign of trouble. Josephine mentions this in her letter, and that they received no reply back, and it was her letter that first informed the Triumvirate of Viddasala's plot. Viddasala failed to catch Josephine's letter because she had her own methods of contacting the Triumvirate that Viddasala was unaware of. Also, Viddasala was so focused on intercepting Hissrad's letters that she didn't expect Josephine to get one through by some other means.

This is reaching amazing meta-conspiracy levels. We're at the point where the Viddasala is some brilliant Xanatos level-chessmaster effectively running a shadow government while duping scores of Qunari to fundamentally betray the tenets of their belief, almost succeeding in decapitating the entire political leadership of Southern Thedas despite the intervention of the closest thing this setting has to a god so far, and pulling the wool over the eyes of two kingdoms, the entirety of her own nation (and their spy organization!), and the Inquisition.  

[Serza]

Just another nutty day on the BSN, I see.

[sniper_arrow]

This is reaching amazing meta-conspiracy levels. We're at the point where the Viddasala is some brilliant Xanatos level-chessmaster effectively running a shadow government while duping scores of Qunari to fundamentally betray the tenets of their belief, almost succeeding in decapitating the entire political leadership of Southern Thedas despite the intervention of the closest thing this setting has to a god so far, and pulling the wool over the eyes of two kingdoms, the entirety of her own nation (and their spy organization!), and the Inquisition.  

 

Before you know it, Dai Gopher will theorize R + L = Viddasala.

[thats1evildude]

This is reaching amazing meta-conspiracy levels. We're at the point where the Viddasala is some brilliant Xanatos level-chessmaster effectively running a shadow government while duping scores of Qunari to fundamentally betray the tenets of their belief, almost succeeding in decapitating the entire political leadership of Southern Thedas despite the intervention of the closest thing this setting has to a god so far, and pulling the wool over the eyes of two kingdoms, the entirety of her own nation (and their spy organization!), and the Inquisition.  

 

What she lacked in dental hygiene, she made up for in Machiavellian plotting.

[midnight tea]

This is reaching amazing meta-conspiracy levels. We're at the point where the Viddasala is some brilliant Xanatos level-chessmaster effectively running a shadow government while duping scores of Qunari to fundamentally betray the tenets of their belief, almost succeeding in decapitating the entire political leadership of Southern Thedas despite the intervention of the closest thing this setting has to a god so far, and pulling the wool over the eyes of two kingdoms, the entirety of her own nation (and their spy organization!), and the Inquisition.  

 

DA4 reveal - Viddasala was a secret agent of Old Gods!

[Wulfram]

The Qunari system isn't exactly set up for people to question the orders of their superior, and the oversight intended to stop people going rogue is probably the Ben-Hassrath - and thus perhaps well suited to subversion by the Viddasala.

I don't think the rogue Viddasala scenario is as unlikely as people are painting it as, though I do think Mr Weekes' tweets suggest that wasn't what they were going for.

[Sifr]

We were discussing what Weekes actually said. He did not say "invasion". That is all we were discussing.

As far as the game goes, my position is that Viddasala was always trying to start a war and start an invasion by Par Vollen to the South. But the Triumvirate was not trying to start anything with the South. Viddasala was acting on her own.

 

You are correct that Viddasala was trying to start a war in the game... but Weekes made me clear in his quote that the full intention was to have the Qunari start a war.

 

Not the Tal-Vashoth.

Not the Vashoth.

Nor Ben-Hassrath who went rogue,

 

But actual Qunari, as in the nation lead by the Triumvirate.

 

This means that the mission to start the war was authorised.

 

No he didn't. He said, "So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it."

The Qunari he is referring to are the Qunari in Trespasser, not the Triumvirate. And while those Qunari tried to start a war, they failed to do so. Which means the Qunari nation is not going to war. These are all facts.

 

But you are totally missing the point of what Weekes said, as well as the context within which he said it. They did not want an offshoot to be the ones responsible for the events of Trespasser, so they could later weasel out of it as something that was simply a rogue faction, the intention was it be the actual Qunari try to start a war.

 

For Viddasala's group to go rogue, that would qualify her as an offshoot, even though they still follow the Qun.

 

It is you opinion that they would be an offshoot. They are members of the Ben-Hassrath, even if they are acting without orders from the Triumvirate. So they are not an offshoot.

 

No, they'd be an offshoot if they went rogue. Have you missed all the parts where we are told that Qunari who disobey the Qun or act against it are labelled Tal-Vashoth and throw out of the club?

 

Unless Viddasala lied to her underlings about the mission being authorised by their superiors, she'd had to have otherwise convince hundreds of Qunari soldiers to risk becoming Tal-Vashoth and permanently barred from returning to Par Vollen to join her in this mission. Even with how Qunari are trained to follow orders, that just doesn't seem plausible that no-one would discover the truth or question the plan... not unless the mission really was sanctioned.

 

But again (and seemingly for the millionth time), Weekes told us that these were real Qunari in Trespasser. And by clarifying that they didn't want them to be an offshoot, means they are definitely not rogue agents acting on false orders.

 

This is pretty much an open and closed case as far as Occam's Razor goes... if Weekes says they are real Qunari and their intention is to start a war, then the simplest explanation is that these were real Qunari trying to start a war.