The Qunari system isn't exactly set up for people to question the orders of their superior, and the oversight intended to stop people going rogue is probably the Ben-Hassrath - and thus perhaps well suited to subversion by the Viddasala.
I don't think the rogue Viddasala scenario is as unlikely as people are painting it as, though I do think Mr Weekes' tweets suggest that wasn't what they were going for.
I like to think of an Iron Bull that's loyal to the Qun as further evidence that they weren't a rogue faction. If they really were rogues, he'd have more reason to continue to help the Inquisitor than to help the Viddasala.
This is reaching amazing meta-conspiracy levels. We're at the point where the Viddasala is some brilliant Xanatos level-chessmaster effectively running a shadow government while duping scores of Qunari to fundamentally betray the tenets of their belief, almost succeeding in decapitating the entire political leadership of Southern Thedas despite the intervention of the closest thing this setting has to a god so far, and pulling the wool over the eyes of two kingdoms, the entirety of her own nation (and their spy organization!), and the Inquisition.
With all the Ben-Hassrath running around, you'd think they'll find such an obvious conspiracy like that... and would be the first to stop such an action themselves once they got word of the Inquisition's concerns.
The only way I could see it working would be if the Viddasala wasn't working alone; that there's division in the Qunari, a big division between warhawks and doves, which goes up to the Triumvirate itself. That's why I wondered if it could be part of a future plot point: that maybe the Viddasala was acting under superior orders, but said orders weren't part of the typical Qunari consensus. Some sort of Qunari infighting or even civil war would be a good chance to explain why a future PC may stop the dreaded Qunari invasion, while allowing those players more supportive of the Qun to side with the less radical members of the faction if they wish so.
However, until that moment, Occam's razor suggests that the Viddasala acting under the Triumvirate's orders is the most likely explanation. Dai Grepher's theories need more assumptions not supported by in-game evidence than the opposite.
No, robertthebard claimed Weekes said "invasion", when in fact the word "invasion" does not appear anywhere in his statements.
There are no counterpoints. I disproved their claims. Anything else is just their baseless conjecture about what they think Weekes meant in the interview.
Yep, you disproved that Weekes said the Qunari were going to start a war. Again, your semantics argument means absolutely nothing, and can be summed up in 6 words: But my Qunari wouldn't do that. Every post you make screams this, as I said, I can hear it even when I'm not logged into the forums. We've already covered what it means when countries go to war. Shockingly enough, for one sentence, you acknowledge that it would include an invasion. You then revert to "But my Qunari wouldn't do that". This despite the lead writer telling us that they would indeed do that, because they're trying to start a war.
In so far as I can tell, you sincerely believe that had Dragon's Breath been successful, and all those explosives had gone off taking out Southern leadership, and anyone else that had the explosives planted, that the Qunari would have sat on Par Vollen going "Nyah nyah, we got you" and then gone on about their day to day. After all, Weekes didn't say they were invading, just starting a war, right? Again, I'm back to the belief that you sincerely believe that this war would entail standing on opposite ends of the playground hurling insults, and proclaiming themselves the winner. I'm still waiting for you to refute anything I've said, when you do actually refute it, I'll be sure to pat you on the back and acknowledge it. In the meantime "But my Qunari wouldn't do that" doesn't count as refutation, just denial of what we've been told.
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The Qunari system isn't exactly set up for people to question the orders of their superior, and the oversight intended to stop people going rogue is probably the Ben-Hassrath - and thus perhaps well suited to subversion by the Viddasala.
I don't think the rogue Viddasala scenario is as unlikely as people are painting it as, though I do think Mr Weekes' tweets suggest that wasn't what they were going for.
The Qunari do, however, have certain well-defined contours to their society. You're not going to convince an antaam he should be a baker. The Qunari have a hierarchy that's determined by their strict code, but we see even in DA2 that people can reason within it to purity test each other. The vidassala could probably pretend to legitimacy for a while, but her actions I'm that case would be hard to distinguish from official. Which is what we see in-game, until the wheels start coming off. I think we're meant to assume she started pursuing her goals outside of her role - going rogue within the scope of her mission, as did the Arishok.
Let's make a clear distinction here between what the Qunari regime was involved with and what Viddasala did from her own account.
First of all, the Dragon's Breath purpose to kill Souther Thedas leadership was obviously endorsed by the Triumvirate.
It's ridiculous to think that a system promoted for it's rigid control of it's subjects wouldn't realize one of it's top agents captured a dragon, amassed huge amounts of gaatlok and started mining raw lyrium in a large scale if she wasn't going to execute a huge offensive operation.
The Qunari had been planning their second invasion at least since DAO and Viddasala's plan had sound logic when you consider the pragmatism Qunari take towards saving as many lives as possible to be converted to the Qun.
A decapitatory strike against all major powers still recovering from a string of wars would make resistance extremely difficult for the fragmented Theodosian society exposed at the start of DAI.
The only reason Qunari did not invade amidst the Mage-Templar War and the Orlesian Civil War was because enemy leadership was heavily guarded from attack by their opposing factions and the Qunari would provide the same effect Corypheus did, unite all factions under the banner of the Chantry to kick their asses.
Leliana calously points out that, had Corypheus used his spy network to wipe out the leadership of every major faction they had long infiltrated, instead of blowing up the Temple of Sacred Ashes in an attempt to become a god, he would have won before people even realized who the Elder One was.
Furthermore, unlike the Arishok, who repeatedly denied his presence in Kirkwall was to occupy the city and who only attacked after snapping under years of pression, the Viddasala gloats the entire time how what she was doing strictly adhered to Qunari objectives of curbing magic and freeing the South from corruption.
So, just to make it clear, the Qunari Triumvirate deliberatedly endorsed the mass assassination Viddasala endorsed because they really intended to invade and conquer the South whether she was successful or not.
What Viddasala did which wasn't acknowledged by her superiors was tampering with ancient and dangerous magic which could escape her control.
Utilizing the Eluvian Network was the only part of the plan which the Triumvirate probably did not endorse since it involved extremely risky trial and error teleportation including going physically into the Fade.
Evidence to support this "rogue" aspect of Viddasala's plan is that, if the Triumvirate had knowledge of and supported the use of eluvians, they would have sent a massive army through them rather than wait for the bombs to explode and lauch their invasion by sea.
Since many of the gaatlok barrels for the operation were transported by conventional means, it's likely that the Triumvirate didn't know Viddasala used interdimensional portals to move a part of them to destinations their agents could not reach otherwise.
In the end of the day, utilizing the eluvians to increase the scope of the operation beyond the reach of the conventional Qunari spy network proved counterproductive as, despite reaching to far more targets than without it, the Dragon's Breath ultimately tipped off Solas and possibly would have tipped off Briala if the former hadn't ousted the latter.
Anyhow, it still stands that Qunari are enemies of all other factions of Thedas and they are antagonists not to be sympathized with outside of an individual level.
The Qunari system isn't exactly set up for people to question the orders of their superior, and the oversight intended to stop people going rogue is probably the Ben-Hassrath - and thus perhaps well suited to subversion by the Viddasala.
I don't think the rogue Viddasala scenario is as unlikely as people are painting it as, though I do think Mr Weekes' tweets suggest that wasn't what they were going for.
The problem is that it would take only a token effort by the qunari to stop her. Just one representative going to the Viddasala's agents and telling them to spread the word that the Viddasala had been disavowed and was now Tal-Vashoth. As you said, the qunari do what they're told.
The Qunari system isn't exactly set up for people to question the orders of their superior, and the oversight intended to stop people going rogue is probably the Ben-Hassrath - and thus perhaps well suited to subversion by the Viddasala.
I don't think the rogue Viddasala scenario is as unlikely as people are painting it as, though I do think Mr Weekes' tweets suggest that wasn't what they were going for.
The problem is that it would take only a token effort by the qunari to stop her. Just one representative going to the Viddasala's agents and telling them to spread the word that the Viddasala had been disavowed and was now Tal-Vashoth. As you said, the qunari do what they're told.
So either they're complicit in the Viddasala's operation or they willingly ignored her actions.
@SandiKay0 Since the wikia doesn't show the codex for an alliance worldstate, I will have to post that evidence later. But that codex proves that Hissrad was sending letters to his superiors and they received nothing in return.
Hissrad confirms in the elvhen ruins that he can't believe the Arigena would let that much gaatlok out of Par Vollen. It is later shown that Viddasala was making her own gaatlok.
The letter in the Darvaarad and it being balled up and discarded by Viddasala proves she was unauthorized. The varying texts of the letter depending on worldstate all state that she was unauthorized, which is also proof.
No one ever mentions seeing any troops or ships near the South waiting to attack. There are no supply lines or camps set up to support and invasion.
Viddasala's own statements about Dragon's Breath are lies, as they show to be inconsistent with the events of the main game, the notes on the past two years from Hissrad, as well as Trespasser's ending. There was no "way of blades".
Beyond that, there is proof from Jerran that Viddasala had thought up Dragon's Breath on her own and was actively defying the Qun.
Notes and objects found in the Darvaarad confirm that Viddasala was doing things outside her role and the Qun, and that her agents were lying to the gate guard in order to conceal the origins of various artifacts.
@In ExileThis is reaching amazing meta-conspiracy levels. We're at the point where the Viddasala is some brilliant Xanatos level-chessmaster effectively running a shadow government while duping scores of Qunari to fundamentally betray the tenets of their belief, almost succeeding in decapitating the entire political leadership of Southern Thedas despite the intervention of the closest thing this setting has to a god so far, and pulling the wool over the eyes of two kingdoms, the entirety of her own nation (and their spy organization!), and the Inquisition.[/quote]
No. Dragon's Breath was rather clumsy in design and execution. Viddasala's actions only showed that the Qunari are easily corrupted by one of their own. Most of them follow orders blindly. Viddasala, as one who re-educates, was skilled in manipulation. She kept those under her in the dark about the true role of Dragon's Breath. She kept most thinking that their actions in those various locations was legitimate. When most under you do not even question, manipulation becomes easy. Those who did question were simply deceived further, as was shown with the note in the Vir Dirthara about the Veil, or the note in the Darvaarad about the dragon's treatment. Those who knew what Viddasala was, like Jerran, were killed in order to silence them.
@Sifr Weekes certainly did not make it clear that the Triumvirate was trying to start a war. Simply saying "the Qunari" can refer to anyone, from one single Qunari all the way up to the Qunari leadership, and everything in-between. And if he intended to have the Qunari leadership start a war, then why didn't they start one? At the end of the game, no war had been started. Had this been an authorized act, the leadership would have went to war anyway. According to Viddasala, Dragon's Breath was simply to make invasion easier and preserve as many lives as possible. She said with that plan foiled, the Qunari army would then take the way of blades. This never happened.
You can't conclusively prove that he wasn't referring to the Ben-Hassrath who were being misused by Viddasala.
Weekes said nothing about the Qunari nation or its leadership, the Triumvirate. You think that's what he meant, but that is just an opinion.
No, I recognize what Weekes actually said. I am not reading anything into it. I also recognize the context in which he said it, which was to explain why Hissrad betrayed the Inquisitor.
I know he didn't want an offshoot, like the Tal-Vashoth, or the Vashoth, or even those who believed the Qun meant something different from what the Ariqun taught. He wanted a fanatical faction that was part of the real Ben-Hassrath, but a faction that was not authorized to attack the South. That's what we got.
If you think he didn't want to weasel out of a war, then you are wrong regardless of what you believe about Dragon's Breath's legitimacy. The first opinion we get (from Leliana if you ask her) is that this is a rogue group. If you take Hissrad everywhere, he constantly says it must be a rogue group. He doesn't mind killing rogue Qunari. He says it all throughout the DLC. Then we get the letter in the Darvaarad from the Triumvirate clearly stating that Viddasala is unauthorized to be attacking the South. Then in a moment of sheer stupidity, Hissrad follows Viddasala's order out of fear, and we steamroll over him as well. Then we get to the epilogue, and no surprise, there is no war. The Ben-Hassrath disavow Viddasala and the Triumvirate continues the alliance with the Chantry as if nothing happened, because nothing is what happened. The Qunari leadership had no involvement in Dragon's Breath, and the South has seemingly accepted that. There is no Exalted March, even if Vivienne is Divine and says that she will have to launch one.
So if you think Weekes wasn't trying to weasel out of a war with the Qunari nation, that's exactly what he did. But I think there was never meant to be a war with the Qunari people. It was just the typical toe-in-the-water storyline. It was an experiment. A test. A trial balloon. Weekes had his cake and ate it too.
Technically, Viddasala was actual Qunari. She just wasn't authorized to do what she did. I don't think acting without authorization would qualify her as an offshoot. She took the Qun's demand of being spread to bas to a fanatical extreme. And as for acting outside the Qun, well... even if you think she was authorized to attack the South, she certainly wasn't authorized to give lyrium to saarebas or bring red lyrium into Qunari lands. So she was acting outside the Qun regardless of what you believe. So by that standard, she should be a "rogue" and "offshoot" in any case, right? That's why I wouldn't consider her an offshoot.
Qunari who act against the Qun are not automatically branded Tal-Vashoth. Some are given the chance to be re-educated.
Of course she lied to those under her. Of course she left most of them in the dark about what they were doing. But at no point were they in danger of being declared Tal-Vashoth. When Viddasala was exposed, the Ben-Hassrath disavowed her. And that was that.
But there were those who questioned Viddasala and saw her as a fraud. Jerran knew she was the one who designed Dragon's Breath. He knew she was violating the Qun. If you let him try and escape, he is killed. The viddathari also questioned her being in the Vir Dirthara and looking into strengthening the Veil. She had to re-educate them in a way by persuading them to agree with her goals for the saarebas.
I never claimed they weren't real Qunari. I just pointed out that they weren't authorized to attack the South.
Occam's Razor favors the simplest answer. The game calls them a rogue group the whole time, the Triumvirate states they did not authorize it, the Ben-Hassrath disavow Viddasala, and there is no war with the Qunari nation. Simplest answer, Viddasala was acting alone and deceiving those under her to carry out her will.
Again, these were real Qunari trying to start a war, but they weren't authorized to do so by the Triumvirate. Viddasala launched this plan herself, and those under her simply assumed that she was authorized.
@KaiserShep Hissrad's betrayal did give me pause, I'll admit. But after thinking it through, the evidence showed that Hissrad was merely being foolish. He either mistakenly believed Viddasala was authorized, or he was too cowardly and afraid of being declared Tal-Vashoth to defy her order.
@Mistic Viddasala could have been misleading most of them into thinking that they were doing something else. Those at the elvhen ruins may have been told that the Inquisition was under the influence of Fen-Harel, and that Hissrad had become Tal-Vashoth, which is why they attack him on sight and ignore anything he says to them. The ones in the mines may have been told that the lyrium was being used for explosives or would be analyzed to find a way to destroy it. Those in the Vir Dirthara may have been told that researching the Veil and giving lyrium to saarebas has been ordered by the Ariqun in order to find a role for the saarebas, and that the role would be to repel all magic, thus making them safer. And of course the elven viddathari enjoyed the prospect of attacking the humans, those racists.
My position is backed by in-game facts.
@robertthebard No I disproved what you claimed about the word "invasion" being used.
Par Vollen may have taken advantage of the chaos, they may not have. Depends on if they thought they could conquer the South, hold it, and also repel Tevinter. It doesn't matter what I think they would do. That is the situation they would face.
@Blood Mage Reaver How was the attack on the South obviously endorsed by the Triumvirate, especially when they send a letter stating that they didn't authorize it? That makes in not so obvious at the very least.
Ridgid control of its subjects, not its agents. The Viddasala was expected to perform her role without issue. And for all the Ariqun knew, she was. Viddasala could have been sending false reports to the Ariqun the whole time.
Capturing a dragon and holding it at the Darvaarad isn't something that would be told to anyone. Viddasala would just keep it secret, like the gaatlok production, which is strictly the role of the Arigena.
Most of the gaatlok was being stored in the elvhen ruins, if you'll remember correctly. That was to be the launching point of Dragon's Breath. But there were also barrels in the mines and some in the Vir Dirthara. The rest was at the Darvaarad. Viddasala kept this all well hidden.
The lyrium stores were isolated mainly to the ruins in the mines. That large lyrium pit at the end of the mines shows this. The lyrium in the mines would easily be hidden from any non-essential personnel.
Just because the Qunari leadership has been planning to invade again doesn't mean they tried to in Trespasser.
Dragon's Breath was stupid and no chance of success. Furthermore, Par Vollen had no chance of taking and holding the South when they can't even beat Tevinter.
The South had recovered from the events of Inquisition. This was two years after. Why didn't the Qunari leadership invade two year prior if they were going to invade? And if invasion would only unite Thedas, then this rules out an invasion at any point.
That isn't exactly what Leliana said. She said Corypheus should have tried to infiltrate and destroy all major world leaders. She did not critique the conclave explosion. Still, Leliana's ruminations prove nothing about the legitimacy or authorization of Dragon's Breath.
No, Viddasala was just making excuses for herself, as she had been doing in front of her followers so they would trust her.
Do you have any proof that the Triumvirate approved Dragon's Breath, or authorized it?
So Viddasala was following the demands of the Qun in attacking the South... but not in every other way she was acting during the DLC? You're trying to have it both ways. Either she was a loyal agent, or she was acting on her own will.
The eluvians were the only way the Qunari from Par Vollen would have been able to invade. There were no warships waiting offshore.
The gaatlok for the palace was shipped via the Inquisition's own supplies. The gaatlok for other places could have been shipped via Viddasala and her active eluvians, then transported to various courts.
The Triumvirate didn't know where Viddasala was moving gaatlok to? How does that make sense?
I agree that we shouldn't trust the Qunari people. But that's different from blaming them for everything.
The problem is that it would take only a token effort by the qunari to stop her. Just one representative going to the Viddasala's agents and telling them to spread the word that the Viddasala had been disavowed and was now Tal-Vashoth. As you said, the qunari do what they're told.
So either they're complicit in the Viddasala's operation or they willingly ignored her actions.
Or they didn't know what the Viddasala was up to until informed by Josephine, and that was too late to get the orders to the relevant people. It seems reasonable to me that the Viddasala could operate in secrecy and isolation given that her work is both covert and dealing with the sort of weird magical stuff that freaks the Qunari out.
The qunari, who have hundreds of sleeper agents and spies throughout Thedas, were ignorant of a plot within their own ranks to assassinate the leaders of the south?! A plan requiring hundreds of people and vast resources to carry out?
The Viddasala's division wasn't even focused on intelligence-gathering! How did the Ben-Hassrathi drop the ball so massively? Did the Viddasala fool them too?
Boy, Bioware really screwed up making Corypheus the main villain when they had the qunari Dr. Doom waiting on the sidelines.
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Those viddathari elves were all on the bottom of the totem pole, and they may have all been re-educated by Viddasala herself long before this. So upon receiving orders from her, they probably all blindly followed.
All Viddasala really had to do was prevent the Dangerous Question's branch of the Ben-Hassrath from catching wind of the operation. Which is possible. Remember, a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull failed to spot the Viddasala's spies at the palace as well.
This is reaching amazing meta-conspiracy levels. We're at the point where the Viddasala is some brilliant Xanatos level-chessmaster effectively running a shadow government while duping scores of Qunari to fundamentally betray the tenets of their belief, almost succeeding in decapitating the entire political leadership of Southern Thedas despite the intervention of the closest thing this setting has to a god so far, and pulling the wool over the eyes of two kingdoms, the entirety of her own nation (and their spy organization!), and the Inquisition.
With this much dedication that this is all an intricate conspiracy that the Viddasala managed to pull off under the Triumvirate's noses, despite the explanation that it was authorised being more logical, obvious and something even the writer's own words seem to back up more...
For this reason, I submit that Dai Grepher wins the Fox Mulder award for insane tin foil theory of the month. You have earned it!
But seriously, how do you ever imagine that she did this all under the eyes of everyone, her superiors and even her underlings? It really does defy all logic that she could ever manage to get away with it, with all the prep time needed to pull of everything that she does. This isn't a small-scale operation with only a few people that can be carried out quickly, this obviously took a while and involved hundreds... it just doesn't seem plausible there was no security leaks or anyone ratted onto her to the higher ups back in Par Vollen.
Furthermore, if Bull is Qun-loyal as Hissrad, then despite him being trained to follow orders, don't you think he'd have reported this back to his own superiors rather than simply accept her orders if he thought they weren't valid? We know he's been on loose sand with the Ben-Hassrath before, you don't think reporting the seemingly rogue actions of a fellow operative would not earn him some easy kudos and lessen any concerns they still had about his loyalty and commitment to the Qun?
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I wonder if IB went against the Qun when he hired a vint to join his mercenary group.
Wouldn't the Qun have something to say about hiring people from enemy nations, such as the bas being potential spies and infiltrators?
Probably not, because part of his cover was to be a mercenary in Ferelden and Orlais. And since he's a spy for the Qunari, pretty much everyone in Thedas would qualify as being part of an enemy nation, so it'd be expected that he'd have to work with bas.
But you're probably right that Bull and his handlers vetted and ran background checks on everyone he hired into the Chargers, just to see if they weren't spies themselves performing counter-espionage. As a former member of the Tevinter military, Krem would probably have been under some scrutiny, but it was probably rather easy for their Imperium agents to verify his story, that he was wanted for desertion after having been caught passing.
I have the feeling Iron Bull wasn't closely watched because well he had a nervous breakdown and they didn't really know what to do with him , so they send him South .
I vaguely remember reading Qunari who couldn't fulfill their role because health issue or old age , tended to kill themselves.
So perhaps whatever doctor they have or a tamassran just decided to send him away so he could blow some steam while the qunari would be looking the other way.
I have the feeling Iron Bull wasn't closely watched because well he had a nervous breakdown and they didn't really know what to do with him , so they send him South .
I vaguely remember reading Qunari who couldn't fulfill their role because health issue or old age , tended to kill themselves.
So perhaps whatever doctor they have or a tamassran just decided to send him away so he could blow some steam while the qunari would be looking the other way.
In World of Thedas Vol 2, they give the reason for his breakdown.
After the incident he mentioned with the merchant, the same poison was later used to murder a whole school of children. Bull was so enraged that civilians were targeted that he lead his men on a reprisal mission against the Tal-Vashoth responsible (technically without orders but using a legal loophole that he was performing an "investigation" to determine the enemy's size), only to lose the rest of his squad in the ensuing melee, along with one of his oldest friends. This caused him to totally snap and butcher the entire stronghold, hacking them to pieces.
When backup arrived, he submitted himself to their custody, asking that he be repaired or destroyed. The reason they sent him south was so that he could continue to serve in a role that was strictly observational in nature, where he'd be required to fight only legitimate enemy targets and avoid the risk of civilian casualties, that could potentially set him off again.
This actually explains a lot of why Bull really hates Tal-Vashoth with such a passion, as well as why his greatest fear is himself losing control.
And before anyone points out that there does seem to be an inherent contradiction in that Bull was able to get away with breaking orders using loopholes in the Qun, it's different in that Bull's paper-thin-excuse was to perform a small scale engagement against a single enemy stronghold.
For Viddasala to do the same, she would have had to come up with multiple loopholes to try to justify her actions, which I simply do not buy that anyone would have bought even for a second (since I doubt they really accepted Bull's excuse either). It seems far more likely to me that she was given full sanction and the Triumvirate were the ones exploiting a series of loopholes in the doctrine, allowing them to justify using unconventional means that were normally forbidden to them to carry out a mass assassination plot.
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Or they didn't know what the Viddasala was up to until informed by Josephine, and that was too late to get the orders to the relevant people. It seems reasonable to me that the Viddasala could operate in secrecy and isolation given that her work is both covert and dealing with the sort of weird magical stuff that freaks the Qunari out.
But this goes back to the authorization point. If you have given your operates extensive scope of discretion, it's not really justifiable to say that they were not authorized to exercise that discretion. This is not something that works, IRL, from a governance POV. If you let your underlings act with untrammeled discretion and instruction their direct reports to follow their orders absolutely, then you have authorized that operation. That you decide, in an after the fact inquiry, that the discretion wasn't properly exercised with a reference to... nothing official that existed at the time restraining that discretion, then you haven't actually demonstrated that the person wasn't authorized in the first place.
There's no way that the Vidassala can both operate in secret and have the Qunari actually legitimately disavow her after the fact. And when I say legitimately, I mean in any believable fashion.
It's the whole problem that Bioware runs into with the Arishok in DA2 being ostensibly without the authority to attack Kirkwall. It's nonsense from a governance POV.
And before anyone points out that there does seem to be an inherent contradiction in that Bull was able to get away with breaking orders using loopholes in the Qun, it's different in that Bull's paper-thin-excuse was to perform a small scale engagement against a single enemy stronghold.
I don't think people get "loopholes". A "loophole" is meant to reflect some gap in a scheme that, on its face, defeats the purpose of the scheme but, in practice, is structured in such a way that you can't just not enforce it without undermining the integrity of your system of rules as a whole or some other important purpose of laws generally.
If the IB justifiably acted within the scope of a rule he never broke anything. Not even his orders.
With this much dedication that this is all an intricate conspiracy that the Viddasala managed to pull off under the Triumvirate's noses, despite the explanation that it was authorised being more logical, obvious and something even the writer's own words seem to back up more...
It's not an intricate conspiracy theory. It is what the game presents. You are just trying to write it off as a conspiracy theory because you can't refute it.
Even if you think Viddasala was authorized to attack the South, it is irrefutable that she was acting outside the Qun in various other ways, including the feeding of lyrium to saarebas, bringing red lyrium into Qunari lands, stockpiling magical artifacts, using eluvians instead of smashing them, exposing Qunari to spirits in the Crossroads dimension, and manufacturing gaatlok. So regardless of what you think, she was hiding things from her immediate superiors and the Triumvirate.
It is not logical that the plan would be authorized because Par Vollen couldn't even take Tevinter. Spreading themselves on multiple fronts across the South makes no sense.
You are projecting your own ideas onto Weekes' statements.
For this reason, I submit that Dai Grepher wins the Fox Mulder award for insane tin foil theory of the month. You have earned it!
Resorting to insults, like others on your side have done. The clear mark of one who has lost the debate.
But seriously, how do you ever imagine that she did this all under the eyes of everyone, her superiors and even her underlings?
Regardless of how, she did carry out certain unauthorized acts under their noses, as outlined above. As for how, one of her legitimate roles is to re-educate Qunari dissidents. This makes her uniquely qualified to persuade people to think as she wants them to. She must have convinced those serving under her that they were carrying out a legitimate operation. When some questioned the logic of researching information in the Vir Dirthara, she brainwashed them into thinking that the Qun demanded it.
This sheaf of notes is written mostly in Qunlat. But select paragraphs have been translated into the common tongue:
Those born outside the Qun will not comprehend the seriousness of using mages to help us. They believe the worst that can befall a mage is demon possession. They do not truly understand that the loss of mastery comes with a loss of the self. Those of the Qun since birth do not understand why we risk using saarebas. We have immersed them in a sea of magic until it seems impossible they could ever do anything but drown. It is right that we enlighten you so your purpose here is clear.
We have learned from this place that there lived an elven mage who saw a great wrong and sacrificed all to right it. This mage made the Veil, which protects us from the Fade. This Veil stripped power from his rulers, who had treated their people with such excess that it makes the southern kings and queens seem staid.
Thus does every action carry rightness and all paths converge.
In his greatest magic, the elven mage became an agent of peace through the Veil. In our willingness to brave this place, we may discover how the Veil can be strengthened through our own mages. For that, we risk our lives. The saarebas who have joined in this endeavor understand the dangers and have made their choice. Remember the words of Ashkaari Koslun:
Existence is a choice. There is no chaos in the world, only complexity. Knowledge of the complex is wisdom. From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self. Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering. Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it. It is in our own power to create the world, or destroy it.
For peace, we will endure any horror here. We will create a safer world, or destroy the old one.
We will create a safer world, or destroy the old one? She sounds as mad as Lucius.
Thus does every action carry rightness and all paths converge? She's being very un-Qun.
It really does defy all logic that she could ever manage to get away with it, with all the prep time needed to pull of everything that she does. This isn't a small-scale operation with only a few people that can be carried out quickly, this obviously took a while and involved hundreds... it just doesn't seem plausible there was no security leaks or anyone ratted onto her to the higher ups back in Par Vollen.
If they thought it was a legitimate operation then there would be no reason to rat. When Jerran tried, he was killed. We also don't know how large the operation was. For all we know, only the council, Denerim's royal palace, and the palace in Val Royeaux were targeted. There's no way they could target every bannorn, every noble house, every territory, every estate. Dragon's Breath was the pipedream of a madwoman.
Furthermore, if Bull is Qun-loyal as Hissrad, then despite him being trained to follow orders, don't you think he'd have reported this back to his own superiors rather than simply accept her orders if he thought they weren't valid? We know he's been on loose sand with the Ben-Hassrath before, you don't think reporting the seemingly rogue actions of a fellow operative would not earn him some easy kudos and lessen any concerns they still had about his loyalty and commitment to the Qun?
He tried. His reports were intercepted by Viddasala and her agents.
If the Qunari were allied with:
Spoiler
Letters and Replies
A letter with an Inquisition seal sits half buried in a pile of memos:
To the Honorable Salasari, Triumvirate of the Qun:
On behalf of the Inquisition, I must humbly inquire as to the hostile actions of your agents in Halamshiral. The Iron Bull has consulted his immediate superiors and contacts within the Ben-Hassrath to no avail. It was our understanding that the Inquisition and the Qunari nation were allies. Why, then, are our people being attacked by Ben-Hassrath agents, and why have we found Qunari gaatlok hidden around the Exalted Council? If your illustrious personages can offer an explanation, we would be glad to hear it. If not, we must consider these to be acts of war.
Respectfully, Ambassador Josephine Montilyet
Several incomprehensible messages in Qunlat follow. A letter written in common in elegant script has been torn open and crumpled into a ball, but the writing is still legible:
To Ambassador Josephine Montilyet of the Inquisition,
The Salasari have no knowledge of any operations occurring in Halamshiral, and are investigating your claims of gaatlok being used in the South. We regret that we are unable to divulge any information regarding current Ben-Hassrath activities at this time, but we hasten to assure you that our partnership with the Inquisition is one we value highly.
I think this, and the fact the letter was balled up, is crystal clear proof that the Triumvirate did not authorize any actions against the South.
In World of Thedas Vol 2, they give the reason for his breakdown.
After the incident he mentioned with the merchant, the same poison was later used to murder a whole school of children. Bull was so enraged that civilians were targeted that he lead his men on a reprisal mission against the Tal-Vashoth responsible (technically without orders but using a legal loophole that he was performing an "investigation" to determine the enemy's size), only to lose the rest of his squad in the ensuing melee, along with one of his oldest friends. This caused him to totally snap and butcher the entire stronghold, hacking them to pieces.
Then this is another example of a real Qunari in a leadership role acting without authorization by believing his role allowed for it, as well as an example of that real Qunari not being branded Tal-Vashoth or killed for it.
When backup arrived, he submitted himself to their custody, asking that he be repaired or destroyed. The reason they sent him south was so that he could continue to serve in a role that was strictly observational in nature, where he'd be required to fight only legitimate enemy targets and avoid the risk of civilian casualties, that could potentially set him off again.
This actually explains a lot of why Bull really hates Tal-Vashoth with such a passion, as well as why his greatest fear is himself losing control.
Which would also explain why he blindly followed Viddasala's order instead of trusted his own mind to determine the truth of the situation. He was too afraid of being declared Tal-Vashoth by Viddasala that he preferred to embrace his own death.
And before anyone points out that there does seem to be an inherent contradiction in that Bull was able to get away with breaking orders using loopholes in the Qun, it's different in that Bull's paper-thin-excuse was to perform a small scale engagement against a single enemy stronghold.
For Viddasala to do the same, she would have had to come up with multiple loopholes to try to justify her actions, which I simply do not buy that anyone would have bought even for a second (since I doubt they really accepted Bull's excuse either).
The higher ups didn't buy Hissrad's excuse, but those under him did. Same case with Viddasala. And she did make excuses for her actions when those under her questioned. You can see this in the first codex I posted in this reply.
It seems far more likely to me that she was given full sanction and the Triumvirate were the ones exploiting a series of loopholes in the doctrine, allowing them to justify using unconventional means that were normally forbidden to them to carry out a mass assassination plot.
Even if you think Viddasala was authorized to attack the South, it is irrefutable that she was acting outside the Qun in various other ways, including the feeding of lyrium to saarebas, bringing red lyrium into Qunari lands, stockpiling magical artifacts, using eluvians instead of smashing them, exposing Qunari to spirits in the Crossroads dimension, and manufacturing gaatlok. So regardless of what you think, she was hiding things from her immediate superiors and the Triumvirate.
Hold on. Do we have any evidence at all that "stockpiling magical artifacts" is prohibited? Do we have any evidence that the Qunari (or Qun) require that an Eluvian be smashed? Do we have any evidence of a ban on manufacturing gaatlok? The Arishok had gaatlok with him. He does not suggest the Qunari are prohibited from manufacturing it outside of Par Vollen or Seheron.
But more importantly, whether the Viddasala is authorized to attack the south is the entire point of this argument. From your first post:
The question was never about if Viddasala was an official Qunari or not, the question was if she was authorized to carry out the actions she carried out in Trespasser.
First off, I have never written that Viddasala was not an official Qunari. I have always recognized the fact that she was a real Qunari who was dedicated to the Qun. My claim is that she was carrying out her own mission without the Triumvirate knowing about it or having ever authorized it.
Patrick Weekes has only confirmed what everyone already knew, that Viddasala was an official Qunari, and Hissrad blindly followed her simply because she was an official Qunari. But he did not say that Viddasala was authorized by the Triumvirate to carry out her Dragon's Breath plan, and the plan was absurd on its face. The Triumvirate is going to start a massive world war and spread themselves thin when they can't even beat Tevinter? That's just laughable.
Hold on. Do we have any evidence at all that "stockpiling magical artifacts" is prohibited?
Qunari hate magic. They destroy it whenever they can.
Do we have any evidence that the Qunari (or Qun) require that an Eluvian be smashed?
Iron Bull says so in Trespasser.
Do we have any evidence of a ban on manufacturing gaatlok?
Manufacturing gaatlok is a role of the Arigena.
The Arishok had gaatlok with him. He does not suggest the Qunari are prohibited from manufacturing it outside of Par Vollen or Seheron.
Qunari having gaatlok in their possession and using it are both fine. Manufacturing it is a role of those in the Arigena branch of Qunari society. It is a role of "The Mind". Viddasala is not a member of the Arigena. Thus her action of manufacturing it is a violation of the Qun.
But more importantly, whether the Viddasala is authorized to attack the south is the entire point of this argument.
This was in reply to Sifr, who doubted that Viddasala could pull of any kind of covert action without the Triumvirate knowing it through some random whistleblower. I proved that she was able to act outside the Qun in various other ways without repercussion. Which means it is possible she tried to attack the South without the Triumvirate knowing anything about it.
Qunari hate magic. They destroy it whenever they can.
Right, absolutely no evidence.
Iron Bull says so in Trespasser.
That's fair. I don't recall it.
Manufacturing gaatlok is a role of the Arigena.
Right, no evidence. Printing money is the role of the government, but that doesn't mean it has to happen in a particular location.
Qunari having gaatlok in their possession and using it are both fine. Manufacturing it is a role of those in the Arigena branch of Qunari society. It is a role of "The Mind". Viddasala is not a member of the Arigena. Thus her action of manufacturing it is a violation of the Qun.
That logic doesn't work: see Tallis, the Antaam, and "fighting" as a role.
This was in reply to Sifr, who doubted that Viddasala could pull of any kind of covert action without the Triumvirate knowing it through some random whistleblower. I proved that she was able to act outside the Qun in various other ways without repercussion. Which means it is possible she tried to attack the South without the Triumvirate knowing anything about it.
That is literally not what you said. Look, I don't have the energy for this debate. I'm just pointing out that it's the whole debate is whether "Viddasala was authorized to attack the South". Once you grant that, there's no debate. By definition, if you grant that she was authorized to attack the South, the Qunari knew about it. Why? Because they authorized her to attack the south.
Qunari hate magic. They destroy it whenever they can.
Yes, but Qunari will use magic if it means that they can destroy it. This is the precise reason why they were in Vir Dirthara initially - to research how to strengthen the Veil. They're pragmatist that way - the ends will justify practiclaly any means. This is the exact same reason why they use Gatt or Iron Bull as spies, even though they consider them broken tools. This is the exact reason why Sten tells us that the peace treaties they've signed were signed predominantly to lull the rest of Thedas into false sense of security. He tells us that, black on white.
Yes, but Qunari will use magic if it means that they can destroy it. This is the precise reason why they were in Vir Dirthara initially - to research how to strengthen the Veil. They're pragmatist that way - the ends will justify practiclaly any means. This is the exact same reason why they use Gatt or Iron Bull as spies, even though they consider them broken tools. This is the exact reason why Sten tells us that the peace treaties they've signed were signed predominantly to lull the rest of Thedas into false sense of security. He tells us that, black on white.
Yep. The Qunari hate magic but they have no qualms about using magic to destroy magic.
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