1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Dai Grepher]

It is my belief that he being still Qun he would have lied to everyone and followed Viddasala because he was ordered to.

Okay, well there is an answer for that too with in-game proof, if you want to read it. Just realize that you are jumping into this debate by bringing these points up. You should also know that I have already refuted these points in a past thread.

For example. Why didn't Hissrad kill the Inquisitor in the Vir Dirthara when Viddasala told everyone there to kill the Inquisitor and then meet her at the Darvaarad?

He was under the "Dangerous Questions" jurisdiction. It is your belief that she used her power and position to "go rogue" and try to start a war.

It is my belief because that is what the facts of the game indicate.

It is my belief that being a part of the three top priestesses of the Ben-Hassarath she had the authority to do her job as she saw fit to cut off the head of these nations that the Qunari believe are the root cause of everything in Southern Thedas.

Except that isn't what they believe according to their own statements and actions.

I don't think you are wrong I didn't belittle you, I just realized that you played the game from a different head-space than I did. You took the info given you in a different way than the majority. You see that Josephine reply that Iron Bulls to "no avail" is proof that she stole his letters. I see it as The Iron Bull told her that he knew nothing.

Right. So now that you know Leliana was verifying all this, what do you think now?

If he is still with the Qun why would he inform her "Oh, it's just the beginning of our invasion, no big deal."

All he would do is send letters requesting clarification and explanation to the Ben-Hassrath. Leliana would verify the letters and she would tell Josephine that Hissrad has received nothing in return. Josephine relayed this in her letter.

Now, if this had been a legitimate operation, Hissrad would have received a deceptive letter at the very least. But he didn't, and we know he didn't because Josephine wrote that he didn't. She would have no reason to write that except that it was true.

[Almostfaceman]

You're missing the point. Even if Dragon's Breath had been the start of the war, where is the war? After Trespasser there is nothing. No war. So where's the war? Where is this war you claim is upon us?

There isn't one. There isn't one, because the Triumvirate didn't plan on launching one at that time.
 

 

Well, you can say there isn't one. But Weekes says there is one. So who am I going to believe? Weekes. The war starts in Trespasser. The war will probably spread out in the next game. You saying that there isn't wide-scale combat at the end of Trespasser doesn't mean anything. Especially in the context of what Weekes said. 

[Almostfaceman]

No he doesn't. He works under the Qun, and that means anyone in a position greater than his can potentially redirect him to some other purpose. Also, it's your opinion that he was talking about the Qunari nation. It is far more likely that he was referring to the Qunari in the DLC, and Hissrad simply sides with fellow Qunari because you didn't get him out of the Qun. That says nothing about the authorization of those Qunari.
 

Viddasala can be acting without authorization without being an offshoot.
 

 

Then that would have been the excuse Bioware would have used for Iron Bull to not betray the Inquisitor. But they didn't, because Iron Bull knows the Qunari mission in Trespasser is a mission his bosses support. 

 

Weekes could have left the situation murky, but he out-right tells us that the Iron Bull betrays us because his bosses want him to do so. 

[thats1evildude]

What war? The war they begin in earnest with Tevinter after Trespasser, of course. Once they conquer the Imperium, what do you think they'll do next?

[midnight tea]

You're missing the point. Even if Dragon's Breath had been the start of the war, where is the war? After Trespasser there is nothing. No war. So where's the war? Where is this war you claim is upon us?

 

Sorry, but that's as disingenuous as asking "What possible world destruction/change caused by Solas? After Trespasser there's nothing!".

 

Like... are you playing naive or something? Trespasser served both as epilogue as well as set up for plot points in future game(s).

 

I mean... it's not like epilogue makes it very clear that after Viddassala's failed attempt the Qunari set their eyes on Teviter (you get that part of epilogue in every worldstate), oh wait:

 

"Few knew what debates were waged in Par Vollen, but not long after the Exalted Council, the Qunari launched new attacks against Tevinter. Their aggression caught the already unstable Imperium off guard. Tevinter was soon mired in a war many feared could spread across Thedas."

 

(oh, and speaking of Trespasser epilogue slides, I've just noticed that the Qunari disavow Viddassala's actions *only if* Inqusition has earlier allied with them. No disavowal if Inquisition's not allied.)

 

...And then there's GDC panel by Weekes and Epler that had this:

 

 

What is written in 'set up for future of the franchise'?

Eluvians, Qunari, Ancient Elves

[Tatar Foras]

Wow this thread's still going? Y'all have too much time on your hands.

[Serza]

Guys, beating this dead horse won't make it any deader.

[KaiserShep]

Okay, well there is an answer for that too with in-game proof, if you want to read it. Just realize that you are jumping into this debate by bringing these points up. You should also know that I have already refuted these points in a past thread.

For example. Why didn't Hissrad kill the Inquisitor in the Vir Dirthara when Viddasala told everyone there to kill the Inquisitor and then meet her at the Darvaarad?


It is my belief because that is what the facts of the game indicate.


Except that isn't what they believe according to their own statements and actions.


Right. So now that you know Leliana was verifying all this, what do you think now?


All he would do is send letters requesting clarification and explanation to the Ben-Hassrath. Leliana would verify the letters and she would tell Josephine that Hissrad has received nothing in return. Josephine relayed this in her letter.

Now, if this had been a legitimate operation, Hissrad would have received a deceptive letter at the very least. But he didn't, and we know he didn't because Josephine wrote that he didn't. She would have no reason to write that except that it was true.

 

Bah! You speak as maraas imekari: a child bleating without meaning! 

[Serza]

Da'len, go to sleep. I can hear the Fade beckon to you...

[Dai Grepher]

Well, you can say there isn't one. But Weekes says there is one.

No he doesn't. You are imagining your own headcanon.
 

So who am I going to believe? Weekes.

You are going to believe your own headcanon over your own eyes. The game clearly shows that there is no war between the South and Par Vollen at the end of Trespasser.
 

The war starts in Trespasser.

Started how? By Viddasala's actions? Her authorization is in question. Give me an example of the Triumvirate acting against the South.
 

The war will probably spread out in the next game.

Ah, so you admit that there is no war in Trespasser and you just think the war will happen in the next game. Are you psychic?
 

You saying that there isn't wide-scale combat at the end of Trespasser doesn't mean anything. Especially in the context of what Weekes said.

So the fact that there's no war doesn't mean there isn't a war. I think you're the only one on you side that doesn't openly admit that the Qunari in Trespasser only tried to start a war, and were prevented from doing so.
 

Then that would have been the excuse Bioware would have used for Iron Bull to not betray the Inquisitor. But they didn't,

Because they wanted Hissrad to die, and the reason for it was that he was blindly loyal to the Qun and could not think beyond Viddasala's deception. He would rather die an ignorant Qunari than risk being branded a Tal-Vashoth, even by another Tal-Vashoth.
 

because Iron Bull knows the Qunari mission in Trespasser is a mission his bosses support.

Wrong. If he knew that he would have attacked the Inquisitor in the elvhen ruins, or lured him into a trap. You can't refute this.
 

Weekes could have left the situation murky, but he out-right tells us that the Iron Bull betrays us because his bosses want him to do so.

Weekes said no such thing. If I'm wrong, then quote Weekes says that the Iron Bull betrays us because his bosses want him to do so.
 

What war? The war they begin in earnest with Tevinter after Trespasser, of course.

No, where is the war with the South? Par Vollen has been at war with Tevinter for ages.
 

Once they conquer the Imperium, what do you think they'll do next?

Go to war with the South. But this necessarily means they are not at war with the South yet. And therein lies the point. Par Vollen is not at war with the South before, during, or following Trespasser. But they do intend to go to war with the South someday. But not in Trespasser, and not through Dragon's Breath.

[Dai Grepher]

Sorry, but that's as disingenuous as asking "What possible world destruction/change caused by Solas? After Trespasser there's nothing!".

Exactly my point. You people are saying Solas destroyed the world in Trespasser. I'm saying he will try to destroy the world years afterward.

Like... are you playing naive or something? Trespasser served both as epilogue as well as set up for plot points in future game(s).

Yeah, regarding Solas. Not regarding any war between Par Vollen and the South. Between Par Vollen and Tevinter? Absolutely.

I mean... it's not like epilogue makes it very clear that after Viddassala's failed attempt the Qunari set their eyes on Teviter (you get that part of epilogue in every worldstate):

So what? The Qunari leadership hit Tevinter as they had been doing for ages. So what? That proves absolutely nothing about Viddasala or Dragon's Breath. Hey, Origin's epilogue says that my Hero and Anora are rumored to usher in a new golden age of prosperity. That clearly means that the Triumvirate didn't authorize an attack against the South. See? I can reference irrelevant epilogue slides too!

"Few knew what debates were waged in Par Vollen, but not long after the Exalted Council, the Qunari launched new attacks against Tevinter. Their aggression caught the already unstable Imperium off guard. Tevinter was soon mired in a war many feared could spread across Thedas."

Read what is stated! People FEARED that the Qunari would war with South at some later date! That proves there is no war with the South after Trespasser! You are quoting things that disprove you.

(oh, and speaking of Trespasser epilogue slides, I've just noticed that the Qunari disavow Viddassala's actions *only if* Inqusition has earlier allied with them. No disavowal if Inquisition's not allied.)

So what? They have no ally to disavow her to. Even so, in their reply letter to Josephine they disavow her.

Also, you are taking irrelevant quotes and putting your own meaning behind them. Let me show you what that's like...

"No one knows what debates were waged in Par Vollen..." Ah ha! There were intense debates waged in Par Vollen! This is unheard of! Clearly this means that the Triumvirate was angry that Viddasala was able to twist so many good Qunari from purpose and get them killed in an attack they did not authorize! This is proof that she was unauthorized, because they debated! They had to check themselves so they would have more oversight of their agents from that point on.

...And then there's GDC panel by Weekes and Epler that had this:

Again, so what? Set up story with the Qunari? That proves nothing about Dragon's Breath. You may as well post a picture of a cat pushing a watermelon out of a lake as "proof".

What is written in 'set up for future of the franchise'?
Eluvians, Qunari, Ancient Elves

Future. As in, not during or immediately after Trespasser. Meaning, there is no war with Par Vollen in Trespasser.

We are going to Tevinter next game. Tevinter is at war with the Qunari. Not the South.

[Almostfaceman]

Weekes said no such thing. If I'm wrong, then quote Weekes says that the Iron Bull betrays us because his bosses want him to do so.
 

 

Patrick Weekes:

 

"So it was definitely something we thought long and hard about. That said, when we got to the Qunari, we kicked around different ways to do it. We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it. And in that case, the only reasonable outcome was that if you hadn't gotten Iron Bull out of the Qun, it made no sense for him to do anything but turn on you."

 

Iron Bull works for "the real Qunari". He tells you right up front when you recruit him. You also have a mission with Iron Bull where you can work with "the real Qunari". 

 

It's as simple as that. 

[Almostfaceman]

Wrong. If he knew that he would have attacked the Inquisitor in the elvhen ruins, or lured him into a trap. You can't refute this.
 

 

I don't have to refute this. Weekes does. 

[Almostfaceman]

Because they wanted Hissrad to die, and the reason for it was that he was blindly loyal to the Qun and could not think beyond Viddasala's deception. He would rather die an ignorant Qunari than risk being branded a Tal-Vashoth, even by another Tal-Vashoth.
 

 

Now this... this is head canon. Probably because you can't figure out why Iron Bull doesn't attack the Inquisitor when you think he should. You've gotta make up something. 

[Almostfaceman]

Started how? By Viddasala's actions? Her authorization is in question. Give me an example of the Triumvirate acting against the South.
 

 

 

Viddasala, in the context of Weekes statement, is the "real Qunari". So her authorization isn't in question.

 

"We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.'"

[Almostfaceman]

Ah, so you admit that there is no war in Trespasser and you just think the war will happen in the next game. Are you psychic?
 
So the fact that there's no war doesn't mean there isn't a war. I think you're the only one on you side that doesn't openly admit that the Qunari in Trespasser only tried to start a war, and were prevented from doing so.

 

I'm not psychic, I just know how to read. 

 

"We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war"

 

In Trespasser the "real Qunari" just tried to attack the leadership of Thedas. In the next game they could all declare war on the Qunari just from that act alone. Weekes indicates they have done something like this. You'll note Weekes doesn't say "try to start a war."

[Dai Grepher]

Patrick Weekes:
 
"So it was definitely something we thought long and hard about. That said, when we got to the Qunari, we kicked around different ways to do it. We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it. And in that case, the only reasonable outcome was that if you hadn't gotten Iron Bull out of the Qun, it made no sense for him to do anything but turn on you."
 
Iron Bull works for "the real Qunari". He tells you right up front when you recruit him. You also have a mission with Iron Bull where you can work with "the real Qunari".

As I thought, you have no quote from Weekes where he says they had Iron Bull turn on you because his bosses told him to do so. You lose, and no amount of word twisting will change that for you.
 

I don't have to refute this. Weekes does.

No he doesn't. He doesn't even address the issue of Viddasala's orders or why Hissrad doesn't turn on you until nearly the end of the DLC.
 

Now this... this is head canon. Probably because you can't figure out why Iron Bull doesn't attack the Inquisitor when you think he should. You've gotta make up something.

You speculate that Hissrad knew of the plot. If so, he would have attacked the Inquisitor before Dragon's Breath had been foiled, not afterward. Viddasala gave him an order. He preferred to die as a deceived Qunari than risk being erroneously declared Tal-Vashoth by a likely Tal-Vashoth. Solas even confirms this after the Storm Coast mission. He sees that Hissrad sacrificed his men, not because it was right, but because he was blindly following orders without thought. That's what happened in the Darvaarad. He blindly followed an order barked at him rather than think the situation through for himself as see Viddasala as being unauthorized and acting against the Triumvirate.
 

Viddasala, in the context of Weekes statement, is the "real Qunari". So her authorization isn't in question.

Weekes doesn't mention Viddasala. Your claim is baseless to begin with.
 

In Trespasser the "real Qunari" just tried to attack the leadership of Thedas.

"Tried" being the operative word.
 

In the next game they could all declare war on the Qunari just from that act alone.

Psychic powers activate!
 

Weekes indicates they have done something like this. You'll note Weekes doesn't say "try to start a war."

Yet you just wrote "tried" above. There is no war at the end of Trespasser. That is canon fact. So no, Weekes wasn't implying that the Qunari actually did start a war in Trespasser.

[Almostfaceman]

As I thought, you have no quote from Weekes where he says they had Iron Bull turn on you because his bosses told him to do so. You lose, and no amount of word twisting will change that for you.
 

 

Sure I do. It's right here.

 

"So it was definitely something we thought long and hard about. That said, when we got to the Qunari, we kicked around different ways to do it. We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it. And in that case, the only reasonable outcome was that if you hadn't gotten Iron Bull out of the Qun, it made no sense for him to do anything but turn on you."

 

Iron Bull worked for the "real Qunari". Nobody playing the game would expect Iron Bull to take orders from anyone else. And he doesn't. 

[Almostfaceman]

Psychic powers activate!

 

 Logical deduction. Elementary. 

 

If a nation tried to destroy the leadership of your nation, it's very logical for your nation to take that as an act of war. Nothing psychic about that. 

[Almostfaceman]

Yet you just wrote "tried" above. 

 

Correct. An attempt to take out a country's leadership, even if it fails, is an act of war. 

[Almostfaceman]

No he doesn't. He doesn't even address the issue of Viddasala's orders or why Hissrad doesn't turn on you until nearly the end of the DLC.
 

 

He doesn't have to do so. You don't have to like what he says, or even think it makes much sense. But he decides where the story is going and what that story has conveyed... not you. 

[Almostfaceman]

You speculate that Hissrad knew of the plot. If so, he would have attacked the Inquisitor before Dragon's Breath had been foiled, not afterward. Viddasala gave him an order. He preferred to die as a deceived Qunari than risk being erroneously declared Tal-Vashoth by a likely Tal-Vashoth. Solas even confirms this after the Storm Coast mission. He sees that Hissrad sacrificed his men, not because it was right, but because he was blindly following orders without thought. That's what happened in the Darvaarad. He blindly followed an order barked at him rather than think the situation through for himself as see Viddasala as being unauthorized and acting against the Triumvirate.
 

 

Well, that's your head canon of the situation. But it's incorrect, according to Weekes. 

[SandiKay0]

Leliana was divine in my last playthrough so she wasn't my spymaster for two years. I highly doubt that she was reading Iron Bulls messages.

[robertthebard]

As I thought, you have no quote from Weekes where he says they had Iron Bull turn on you because his bosses told him to do so. You lose, and no amount of word twisting will change that for you.

Remember when I said how cute your thrashing around trying to claim "But my Qunari wouldn't do that"? Here's a perfect example, given to us after a quote from the lead writer that refutes everything you're trying to claim. Thanks for this, it's still quite amusing, to me.

[Andreas Amell]

I doubt it would be noteworthy. Few but the Hero King/Queen of Ferelden would even know about the Viddasala's plot. And if the Hero's spouse accepted the explanation, the Hero should as well. In the event the Hero does not accept it, Arishok would simply tell the Hero that the Viddasala was not authorized to attack the South. The Hero would either believe him or not, but would not be able to do anything about it. The Hero wasn't in the South when it happened.

 

I was thinking of a conversation after the Hero of Ferelden returns home after Trespasser.