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[Darkstarr11]

Act of War definition

 

noun

1.

an act of aggression by a country against another with which it is nominally at peace.

 

 

Any agent of a foreign power, especially a high ranking one, that willfully engages in an act of aggression towards another power is considered an act of war.  The Viddisala, by nature of her position within the Qunari government, had the power and authority to act against dangerous magics.  The disavow came AFTER her initial attack.  The fact that she had the resources to move forward with her goal, and was NOT stopped by her own government indicates that they were complicit.  Doesn't matter if they knew exactly what she was doing.  If at any point they stated that she was to move forward with containing the danger in the South, they gave authorization.  The fact that the Qunari did NOT warn the south (don't give me any garbage about intercepting notes, because ignorance is NOT a defense, nor is it plausible that they would rely upon ONE source to facilitate message delivery) shows that at the very least, they were disinterested in revealing such.  To be clear, we've seen what the Qunari do to threats from within.  They have an ENTIRE order dedicated to resolving that issue.  THEIR loyalty is to the Ariqun.  Remember the aftermath of Kirkwall?  The Arigena AND the Ariqun traveled to a city in Rivain to disavow his actions.  

 

EXCEPT, the Arishok HAD the authority to act.  He was, remember, one of the Triumvirate.  He WAS one of the heads of state.  Their actions were a face saving measure, little more.  Oh, but...you know what, SCREW canon.  All I have to do is open up a newspaper or history book for examples.  The Qunari have LIED before.  So have many governments.  This is where real world bleeds into Thedas.  Any dictatorship is more than willing to make outrageous claims that suit their narrative at the time.  In North Korea, individuals are taught NOT to think.  Their thoughts, first and foremost, are about the Great Leader.  The Qunari are taught to think ONLY within their 'role'.  Now, the Arishok, IN HIS ROLE as head of the military, was bound by his laws UNTIL given a compelling reason (the protection of Qunari, i.e., the elves who joined up) to move forward to attack.  AFTER years of provocation.  In fact, he was potentially one of the more sympathetic characters IN DAII.  Yet his cohorts in the government, fearing an Exalted March, saved face by condemning him.  But, some may cry, they disavowed him!  Yeah, so have a lot of governments when it became politically inconvenient.  If it quacks, its a duck.  

 

The Iron Bull, if he rejoins the Qunari, would have been reeducated.  Placed in direct contact with the Inquisitor.  That is a big time position.  Put into contact with one of the most dangerous magics in the land.  So, they toss him off to a random handler so that he can have his information filtered down...wait, thats plain idiotic.  You have, at your disposal, an agent who is in DIRECT contact with a potential enemy number one of your government...you DON'T hand that to some schlub who is ten degrees apart.  No, you handle that as direct as possible.  The Ariqun is supposed to be in charge of the spies, right?  They dropped the ball with Salit, big time.  OR, they knew something Tallis didn't.  Either way, they WEREN'T going to make the mistake again.  To say that they didn't KNOW?  Really?  An operation as big as the Dragons Breath had to be authorized.  If it WASN'T authorized, there is NO WAY it couldn't be hidden from the new Arishok or the Ariqun.  I recall killing a LOT of the Antaam, and saarebas.  Saarebas are under the control of the Arvaarad.  They contain dangerous magics.  As they took orders from the Arishok in DAII, this shows they PROBABLY fall under the control of the Antaam.  Now, they could be under the Ben-Hassrath, which begs the question either way...where did she get all of her forces?  Are they telling me that they ALL went Tal-Vashoth?  Going against the Qun is NOT acceptable among the Qunari.  That has been made VERY, VERY clear.  The ONLY way they would get away with it is through authorization.  

 

Now, as to war...the Qunari DID go to war.  An attack upon the leadership of another power is an act of war.  At this point, it is up to the Qunari to disprove that their VERY high ranking agent went rogue.  Which is gonna be REALLY hard to do if Iron Bull is about.  If he's part of the team, he'll know enough about policy and structure to point it out.  If he betrays you, it counts AGAINST the Qunari.  Try explaining why one of their agents turns on the Inquisitor in the presence of one of their top priestesses?  If the Inquisitor survives, they are SCREWED.  You have a material witness to a purely aggressive act.  The Inquisitor is considered a major leader in Thedas, and a HOLY FIGURE!  The Qunari KNOW THIS.  So if one of THEIR agents decides to take a swing at the Herald of Andraste's neck, and THEY claim ignorance to the fact, they are either lying, or pathetically maladroit.  The Inquisitor PERSONALLY witnessed acts of aggression and terrorism.  Massive supplies of explosives, troops, and documentation showing that an invasion was planned.  Personal witness to direct comments of an actionable agent of said acts, along with collaborating evidence from multiple governments of potential terrorist threats due to the gaatlok that was found within their environs.  Think of how that will look to the governments of Thedas.  Let's say, Gaspard, Alistair or Anora, the various nobles, and the Divine take a look at that evidence.  Who are going to believe?  The Inquisitor...or the Qunari?  Gaspard is a WARMONGER!  The Divine might be Vivienne!  Or Cassandra!  You think they are just going to roll over and believe it when they say, `nope, wasn't us...it was all THAT girl over there!`  REALLY?  That's like believing Putin when he said he didn't have troops in Crimea prior to the invasion.  

 

​All evidence points to either the Qunari are the BIGGEST bunch of idiots next to Gully Dwarves, or they were totally in on it, and are backtracking.  When a battalion or the equivalent thereof is able to march off and involve themselves in a highly questionable and vicious act towards another power, or two, and you claim that you don't know anything is stretches belief BEYOND what is tolerable.  IS there the possibility of them NOT knowing?  Slim, yes, but possible, but it makes them out to be utter buffoons.  Utter buffoons who, what, accidentally survived a war against Thedas and the Imperium for what, two centuries?  Really?  The most plausible scenario is that they let her loose, she went too far, and now they are trying to save face.  The initial operation however, HAD to have been authorized.  From the moment they gave her the go ahead, they were complicit.  Doesn't matter if they got cold feet later.  If you authorize a potential plan, then it moves forward, even without your go ahead, you STILL authorized it in the first place.  You tell someone to build a bomb, just in case your enemy comes a knocking.  That individual at some point, for WHATEVER reason, decides that they have to act, and using the bomb YOU TOLD THEM TO BUILD goes after the threat, DOESN'T absolve you of you TELLING THEM TO BUILD THE BOMB!  You gave them the means, and the resources.  Its on you.  YOU AUTHORIZED IT.

 

Based on the evidence at hand, I concur with the initial estimation that the Qunari government authorized the Viddisala to do what she needed to contain the dangerous magics of the Breach and the Anchor.  Especially after Weekes said that they would 'own it'.  

 

Now, I've said my two bits.  It IS interesting to see the various arguments and discussions, but this is my perspective.  Could I be wrong?  Full of hot air?  Sleep deprived and lacking in judgement?  No, not at all...I AM sleep deprived and lacking in judgement but that doesn't mean I'm wrong.  Doesn't mean I'm right.  This is my piece, and there it is.  While my argument may be rather...vitriolic, I intend no offense to parties involved.  With that being said, I'm out.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

[midnight tea]

Owwww, ow, ow, ow... Patrick Weekes strikes again. I'm sorry Dai.

 

Just listen to this:

 

http://gdcvault.com/...tion-Trespasser

 

Around 24:00 Weekes starts to talk about them juggling ideas about Qunari in Deep Roads. One of their initial ideas to flesh out reasons they were there was to show that the Qunari are attempting to create Templars. Why would they create Templars, you ask?

 

24:50 "The Qunari are here mining lyrium to make Templars that they can suppress our mages when they invade the South."

 

Weekes explains that the addition of Templars didn't work due to adding a complex plot element to already complicated plot, but what he says later is that they fixed that problem by replacing Templars with Sareebas 'Superweapons'.

 

And yes, if you listen to him, every single time Weekes uses THEY are making a super-weapon prepared to invade the South and deal with their mages  (and it makes perfect sense btw, since their last invasion was thwarted by mages so they need something to counter them). They - the Qunari - and not just Viddassala.

[thesuperdarkone2]

Owwww, ow, ow, ow... Patrick Weekes strikes again. I'm sorry Dai.

 

Just listen to this:

 

http://gdcvault.com/...tion-Trespasser

 

Around 24:00 Weekes starts to talk about them juggling ideas about Qunari in Deep Roads. One of their initial ideas to flesh out reasons they were there was to show that the Qunari are attempting to create Templars. Why would they create Templars, you ask?

 

24:50 "The Qunari are here mining lyrium to make Templars that they can suppress our mages when they invade the South."

 

Weekes explains that the addition of Templars didn't work due to adding a complex plot element to already complicated plot, but what he says later is that they fixed that problem by replacing Templars with Sareebas 'Superweapons'.

 

And yes, if you listen to him, every single time Weekes uses THEY are making a super-weapon prepared to invade the South and deal with their mages  (and it makes perfect sense btw, since their last invasion was thwarted by mages so they need something to counter them). They - the Qunari - and not just Viddassala.

Can't wait to see how Dai Grepher will deny this.

 

 

Also fun fact:

 

The qunari only disavow the Viddasala if you ally with them. If you don't, they never disavow her.

[Almostfaceman]

Owwww, ow, ow, ow... Patrick Weekes strikes again. I'm sorry Dai.

 

Just listen to this:

 

http://gdcvault.com/...tion-Trespasser

 

Around 24:00 Weekes starts to talk about them juggling ideas about Qunari in Deep Roads. One of their initial ideas to flesh out reasons they were there was to show that the Qunari are attempting to create Templars. Why would they create Templars, you ask?

 

24:50 "The Qunari are here mining lyrium to make Templars that they can suppress our mages when they invade the South."

 

Weekes explains that the addition of Templars didn't work due to adding a complex plot element to already complicated plot, but what he says later is that they fixed that problem by replacing Templars with Sareebas 'Superweapons'.

 

And yes, if you listen to him, every single time Weekes uses THEY are making a super-weapon prepared to invade the South and deal with their mages  (and it makes perfect sense btw, since their last invasion was thwarted by mages so they need something to counter them). They - the Qunari - and not just Viddassala.

 

Great find. 

 

At 3:38 they're summarizing the goals of Trespasser and the Qunari are "an invading force from across the sea that hates magic."

 

Invasion. 

[KaiserShep]

I look forward to a war against the Qunari. The oxmen will, once again, cower before my controller. 

[Addictress]

Bah! You speak as maraas imekari: a child bleating without meaning!

*slams fist on table*

[In Exile]

Owwww, ow, ow, ow... Patrick Weekes strikes again. I'm sorry Dai.

Just listen to this:

http://gdcvault.com/...tion-Trespasser

Around 24:00 Weekes starts to talk about them juggling ideas about Qunari in Deep Roads. One of their initial ideas to flesh out reasons they were there was to show that the Qunari are attempting to create Templars. Why would they create Templars, you ask?

24:50 "The Qunari are here mining lyrium to make Templars that they can suppress our mages when they invade the South."

Weekes explains that the addition of Templars didn't work due to adding a complex plot element to already complicated plot, but what he says later is that they fixed that problem by replacing Templars with Sareebas 'Superweapons'.

And yes, if you listen to him, every single time Weekes uses THEY are making a super-weapon prepared to invade the South and deal with their mages (and it makes perfect sense btw, since their last invasion was thwarted by mages so they need something to counter them). They - the Qunari - and not just Viddassala.

I will say, though, that if the design goal is to have the Qunari create an anti-mage weapon by using lyrium, creating their own (even red) templar makes a hell of a lot more sense than creating a super-mage.

[AutumnWitch]

I will say, though, that if the design goal is to have the Qunari create an anti-mage weapon by using lyrium, creating their own (even red) templar makes a hell of a lot more sense than creating a super-mage.

 

Maybe we get to be one of those the "Super Mages" in DA4 and turn it back against them. (I know it won't happen but kewl thought)

[midnight tea]

I will say, though, that if the design goal is to have the Qunari create an anti-mage weapon by using lyrium, creating their own (even red) templar makes a hell of a lot more sense than creating a super-mage.

 

Well the DLC does show them researching red lyrium in Daarvarad. There are even some comments about that from Inky and companions and a letter addressed to Tallis.

 

Anyway, considering that they still retained their Templar Viddathari and base research on his knowledge there's no telling what else they're planning to use or create.

[Almostfaceman]

*slams fist on table*

 

Don't stop there, flip that bad boy!

 

[sniper_arrow]

Owwww, ow, ow, ow... Patrick Weekes strikes again. I'm sorry Dai.

 

Just listen to this:

 

http://gdcvault.com/...tion-Trespasser

 

Around 24:00 Weekes starts to talk about them juggling ideas about Qunari in Deep Roads. One of their initial ideas to flesh out reasons they were there was to show that the Qunari are attempting to create Templars. Why would they create Templars, you ask?

 

24:50 "The Qunari are here mining lyrium to make Templars that they can suppress our mages when they invade the South."

 

Weekes explains that the addition of Templars didn't work due to adding a complex plot element to already complicated plot, but what he says later is that they fixed that problem by replacing Templars with Sareebas 'Superweapons'.

 

And yes, if you listen to him, every single time Weekes uses THEY are making a super-weapon prepared to invade the South and deal with their mages  (and it makes perfect sense btw, since their last invasion was thwarted by mages so they need something to counter them). They - the Qunari - and not just Viddassala.

 

I'll give Dai props for giving inputs I haven't thought before. Better than thinking Riordan was an Orlesian spy and wants Ferelden to burn to the ground.

[ModernAcademic]

I look forward to a war against the Qunari. The oxmen will, once again, cower before my controller. 

 

I, on the other hand, look forward to fighting alongside the Qunari against decadent Tevinter and corrupted Orlais.

[KaiserShep]

Let's face it. We'll never truly be allies with them. The only way I suspect we ever could be is if we can convert to the Qun, otherwise we're all just playing bas that they'll use and discard and perhaps attempt to convert. 

[Kurogane335]

I, on the other hand, look forward to fighting alongside the Qunari against decadent Tevinter and corrupted Orlais.

It won't happen. Bioware went out of its way to demonize the Qun and whitewash Tevinter during the whole of DA:I. Don't except to ever see Par Vollen except as an invader intent to destroy the culture of the Qunari. Of course, it would be right to do so, because it would be cultures which looks extremely close to our own (corrupt, catering mostly for a so-called "elite", etc.) which will destroy the Qun. The reverse is pure atrocity, and can't be accepted ever as a good thing.

[midnight tea]

It won't happen. Bioware went out of its way to demonize the Qun and whitewash Tevinter during the whole of DA:I. Don't except to ever see Par Vollen except as an invader intent to destroy the culture of the Qunari. Of course, it would be right to do so, because it would be cultures which looks extremely close to our own (corrupt, catering mostly for a so-called "elite", etc.) which will destroy the Qun. The reverse is pure atrocity, and can't be accepted ever as a good thing.

 

Yes, because it was an atrocity when Soviets and Nazis went down. Such cartoonish political systems, who would think thaty're in any way realist- OH WAIT

 

As someone who lives in a country who suffered from hands of both I can tell you that I'm pretty happy that such oppressive political or ideological systems are gone. I mean, Germans and Russians still exist and I'm happy for it. But the Nazis and Soviets can go to hell. So can the Qun.

[Almostfaceman]

It won't happen. Bioware went out of its way to demonize the Qun and whitewash Tevinter during the whole of DA:I. Don't except to ever see Par Vollen except as an invader intent to destroy the culture of the Qunari. Of course, it would be right to do so, because it would be cultures which looks extremely close to our own (corrupt, catering mostly for a so-called "elite", etc.) which will destroy the Qun. The reverse is pure atrocity, and can't be accepted ever as a good thing.

 

Can you really demonize your own creation, one which was completely abhorrent by design from the very get-go? Really? There's no chance that they "misunderstand" or "demonize" the Qun because it's not something they're unfamiliar with. They made it. 

[In Exile]

It won't happen. Bioware went out of its way to demonize the Qun and whitewash Tevinter during the whole of DA:I. Don't except to ever see Par Vollen except as an invader intent to destroy the culture of the Qunari. Of course, it would be right to do so, because it would be cultures which looks extremely close to our own (corrupt, catering mostly for a so-called "elite", etc.) which will destroy the Qun. The reverse is pure atrocity, and can't be accepted ever as a good thing.

It's funny you say this, because open a thread about the IB and Krem and all you'll hear is about the whitewashing of the Qun.

[midnight tea]

It's funny you say this, because open a thread about the IB and Krem and all you'll hear is about the whitewashing of the Qun.

 

Yeah, the flip-flopping is amusing. I have a feeling there are people who don't understand some more nuanced points BW is trying to make through things like the Qunari, so it has to be either "whitewashing" or "demonizing".

[SandiKay0]

Yes, they can, because if write a truly good villian people will want to hate them. They will invest in the emotion to want to destroy them.

[In Exile]

Yeah, the flip-flopping is amusing. I have a feeling there are people who don't understand some more nuanced points BW is trying to make through things like the Qunari, so it has to be either "whitewashing" or "demonizing".

I think the subtle terror the IB conveyed every time he spoke about the Qun just didn't convey well. If you pay attention to what he says (such as is "over there" language, and his talk about how the Qun is the same for the poor) you just see him struggle to justify it to himself. Everything he actually says is awful. Especially about re-education and the fact that people live in daily fear of endless Tal-vasoth, Fog Warrior and Tevinter terrorist attacks.

[Heimdall]

Everything he actually says is awful. Especially about re-education and the fact that people live in daily fear of endless Tal-vasoth, Fog Warrior and Tevinter terrorist attacks.

I actually think that last part is the specific situation of Seheron, not Par Vollen

[Kurogane335]

Yes, because it was an atrocity when Soviets and Nazis went down. Such cartoonish political systems, who would think thaty're in any way realist- OH WAIT

 

As someone who lives in a country who suffered from hands of both I can tell you that I'm pretty happy that such oppressive political or ideological systems are gone. I mean, Germans and Russians still exist and I'm happy for it. But the Nazis and Soviets can go to hell. So can the Qun.

Linking the Soviets or Nazi to the Qun is ludicrous. The latter one is actually out there to improve the lives of all its members, not just a select few, chosen either by race or "class". And as a French, I can tell you that I too know quite a lot about the Europeans Totalitarian regimes. In the Qun, there is no racism, and peoples are all cared about by the society as a whole. Yes, it require some loss of freedom in your career, but inside this one, you are just as free as anywhere else in Thedas, if not more if you're an elf.

 

Can you really demonize your own creation, one which was completely abhorrent by design from the very get-go? Really? There's no chance that they "misunderstand" or "demonize" the Qun because it's not something they're unfamiliar with. They made it. 

Of course they can. They, at first, made it this distant and barely understood. yes, they were aggressive, but so were Orlesians or Tevinters, and even Fereldians were far from perfect. In fact, in the hectic Ferelden, Sten and his depiction of the Qun stood as a more rational and effective social system. Even the reason why they ceased their war with the rest of Thedas was noble : their new converts were slaughtered en masse and they wanted to prevent it, but for one reason or another, couldn't do it by war. Meanwhile, Logain was selling elves as slaves to Tevinter and refused to allow Orlesian Wardens in Ferelden. The Qun was a nuanced force here.

 

In Da:II too was the Qun complex and nuanced, despite the heavy flaws of the game design (it was basically impossible to ever avoid a fight, as far as I can remember). The Arishok demonstrated a great deal of restraint for years despite near constant provocations. It was when his newly converted brethren were killed that he snapped and even then he could be somewhat reasoned with and he even demonstrated deep respect for Hawke depending of the player's choices. Once more, compared to the other factions (Mage supremacists, insane Templars, corrupt Kirkwall nobles) the Qunari were, if not better, at least not worse than anyone (and in my book, they were better for their restraint, respect and willingness to not interfere with the City policies for some times).

 

In DA:I we have an almost Tal-Vashoth talking about the Qun. And yes, the Iron Bull paint it in a good light... but with so many "ifs" and "buts" that it's become suspect. Then his hamfisted quest cemented the idea that the Qun couldn't be trusted, with a very poor depiction of the Qunari in action (compared to DA:II). Then, comes Trespasser and while the Venatori were always painted as a fringe, extremist cults which happened to be comprised of Tevinter subjects, and not in any way representatives of Tevinter (a racist, eugenicist and highly corrupt society and culture both), the Qunari of the DLC were always painted as both pure evil (with a plan which made no sense, especially when the logistics necessary to occupy the South while battling Tevinter can't be in the possession of the Qunari, due to both the state of their technologies and the distance between their lands and even the Free Marches) and without a doubt members of the Qunari in full right, and obeying orders from above.

 

That's why there as been a whitewashing of Tevinter, whose representation as softened quite a lot compared to what it was in Origins and even DA:II, while the Qun was hit with the evil-bat all along DA:I. Gone was the nuance around the Qunari : they are, basically, the next worst thing after Darkspawn now, and apparently it pleases the majority of the playerbase. Meanwhile, Tevinter, which is, for me, in a very select club up there with the Forsakens of WoW, of societies and culture so utterly morally bankrupt and corrupt that erasing any trace of their civilization and culture appears as a necessity because nothing good can ever be built upon such abominations, is ever more painted as the poor ancient empire necessitating some "reforms" fighting the good war against the atrocious oxmen who want to ensure that there isn't famines, slavery or abuses by a social "elite" which can roam freely unpunished.

[Almostfaceman]

*snip*

 

I despise the Tevinters as much as I did after playing DA:O and I despise the Qunari as much as I did after DA:O.

 

The Qunari are not very nuanced, in my opinion. They put you in a role and you have the choice to either follow that role, or die. They really value that choice, but that doesn't mean that choice has any value. The Qun values utility, not individuality. So it ignores the fact that we're all individuals. You are a cog in a machine. If the cog is damaged, it can either be repaired or replaced. It doesn't change its function in the machine. All these facts remain the same throughout all three games. 

 

All I really learned about the Qun in Inquisition was more detail about how their culture operated. 

 

I don't take personalities like Dorian or Iron Bull, look at their good aspects, then think "well, if these guys aren't so bad then maybe Tevinter/The Qun isn't so bad." 

 

Bioware can't demonize the Qun. Demonization is propaganda... one side painting the other side as one-dimensional and evil as possible. Since Bioware *is* the Qun they would be lambasting themselves. That's impossible. They decide what the Qun is, not us. We can't say... "well... Bioware... you just don't appreciate the complexity of the Qun" - they are the complexity of the Qun. We only know what they've told us so far. It ain't been much. Their reveal of the Qun through the story may not agree with your head canon, but that doesn't mean much. You may not like what they've done, but you can't tell them they're wrong about the character of the Qun. They decide what is the character of the Qun. 

 

Tevinter, in Inquisition, still has slaves. Still has corruption. Still started the Blight. Dorian doesn't change any of that, even though I like him. 

[midnight tea]

Linking the Soviets or Nazi to the Qun is ludicrous. The latter one is actually out there to improve the lives of all its members, not just a select few, chosen either by race or "class". And as a French, I can tell you that I too know quite a lot about the Europeans Totalitarian regimes. In the Qun, there is no racism, and peoples are all cared about by the society as a whole. Yes, it require some loss of freedom in your career, but inside this one, you are just as free as anywhere else in Thedas, if not more if you're an elf.

 

This is just silly. So just because the Qun says that they want to improve of others it means they do - or they do it right? You realize that the Soviets marched on the world with similar sort of mottoes and for a very long time pretended that it's all going swell and equal for everyone? And yes, we were also all free and cared for under the USSR ...So long as we agreed with them in every respect! (and weren't a Jew) Anyone else is a dissident and bourgeois swine - just like for the Qun everyone who is not converted to a Qunari is a bas.

 

(and so far we also never saw a Viddathari in any position of power other than spies, and Viddathari we talk with say that only the Qunari really understand the Qun. Should tell you something about supposed "no racism" on Par Vollen...)

 

Plus, one of the bigger points of DA is to show how oftentimes reality is incongruous with ideals, or there have been flubs in translating those ideas to practice. It's the whole damn theme, especially in Inquisition.

 

Inky: "Well, we don't have slavery here, unlike Tevinter"

Dorian: "With the way you Southerners treat peasants and lower class ask yourself if you're really that better from us."

 

Really, saying stuff like "there's no racism under the Qun" and "everyone is cared for" completely misses the point here. If you read Koslun's work there really isn't much that is wrong with the philosophy per se - thing is that the Qunari, in their overzealousness (if not conditioning), took this philosophy and ideas like "equality" and twisted them into something bizarre, if not monstrous, that doesn't really work in practice.... You know, like we did so often throughout history.

 

And That's. The. Point.

[thats1evildude]

I think BW has been pretty consistent in the portrayal of the Qun: a religion preaching security and well-being over individuality whose faithful adherents regarded everyone not under the Qun as "things."

The only significant change was in DAI with the introduction of the aqun-athlok concept.