First things first. I listened to the full conference that midnight tea linked to. I heard everything they said in full context. This has more examples of Weekes referring to the
Qunari in Trespasser as "the Qunari", not the Qunari as a nation or as led by the Triumvirate.
But there is more to this video than just that, and I am proud to announce that this video supports and reaffirms my position completely. Weekes was referring to the Qunari that we fought in the DLC, not the Qunari leadership or the Qunari people (except where he specifically refers to the Qunari as a people or civilization suppressing mages), and he or the other guy go on to confirm that the Qunari people as a whole are separate from the Qunari we fought in Trespasser based on ideology. This again proves that Viddasala was unauthorized in her actions. Here are the main points they went through of the conference:
The Qunari are present in the DLC. Yes, there are Qunari in the DLC. This says nothing of their authorization. They needed to establish the Qunari as a threat. They did that by having them attack us at the elvhen ruins and mines. They showed the Qunari mining lyrium.
During development, they needed a reason for the Qunari to be there. Before a plot was written they just had Qunari doing something bad. They needed to give them a reason to mine lyrium.
Then when talking about tension escalation, the other guy (John Epler, I think his name is) said that there was nothing leading up to fighting the “Qunari leader”. Ah ha! Here is the first bit of evidence that the “leader”, or head in this is Viddasala, not the Triumvirate. So the group of Qunari we fight end with her. Now if we take this literally, he is directly stating that Viddasala is the leader of this group. If their plan had been authorized by the Triumvirate, then Viddasala would not be the Qunari leader. She would only be one agent of three under the Ariqun, and the Ariqun would be the leader, or one of three leaders along with the Arishok and Arigena.
By identifying Viddasala as the leader, Epler confirms that she was the highest ranking Qunari who knew about Dragon’s Breath. There was no one above or lateral to her. She was alone in her actions.
Next, the idea was floated of the Qunari making Templars. So they asked themselves what do the Qunari hate? Magic. Ah ha! Evidence #2 that this was an unauthorized mission. They were clearly referring to the Qunari society when they said the Qunari hate magic. How do we know this? Because the Qunari in Trespasser were actively encouraging magic, according to Weekes in this conference. So instead of Templars, because Templars made no sense in context of the gameplay or storyline, they had saarebas being powered up into super weapons. So the Qunari in Trespasser were encouraging magic among saarebas, and the Qunari society was suppressing them to magic. See where the disconnect comes into play? Viddasala was actively defying the will of Qunari society and implementing her own plan.
Now I know what you’re thinking. Wait Dai Grepher, Weekes also talked about using Templars to suppress mages in the South when they invade, and then switched to using saarebas as super weapons possibly to invade, though I don't think he specifically said they would invade with powered up saarebas(but let's assume they would be used to invade).
To this I point out three things. First, Weekes confirms that the first storyline was dropped. That there would be no Templars to suppress Southern mages. So this is moot and irrelevant.
Second, just because the Qunari in Trespasser may have been intending to invade with powered up saarebas, doesn’t mean the Triumvirate authorized this. The plot could still just be limited only to the Qunari we fight in the DLC.
Third, even assuming that the Triumvirate authorized an invasion using powered up saarebas, the Triumvirate would logically want to
test them first to make sure the saarebas could be controlled and were effective against mages. This is also assuming that the Qunari society would even approve of powering up saarebas. Weekes’ previous statement indicates the exact opposite. But assuming they would approve it, and assuming they were implementing this in Trespasser, Jerran confirms that they had just started doing this. So would the Triumvirate attack the South with untested saarebas? No. They would take them to Seheron first and test them against Tevinter armies first to make sure they would be effective weapons. So even if the Triumvirate wanted to invade, and we all agree that they do eventually, that doesn’t mean they wanted to invade anytime soon. A plot to power up saarebas could have been for years down the road when Par Vollen is ready to invade the South. They could have had Viddasala research this, but not take any aggressive action. The fact that she tried to would still mean she was unauthorized to do what she did.
Now despite what Weekes said, he is actually in conflict with what Viddasala states in her letter. She claimed her intent was to have the saarebas learn how to mimic the Veil to keep the Fade away. So maybe Weekes was only talking about a plot point that was later changed again. In which case, the idea that they would be used as weapons against the South changed completely. Making this all moot. They were never intended for warfare in this case.
So, the idea to make Templars for invasion? Scrapped. Rejected. Killed.
The idea to make super weapons out of saarebas? Not from the Triumvirate, considering Weekes’ statement about Qunari society. In which case Viddasala was definitely unauthorized. But if authorized to make super weapons out of saarebas, then only to test the saarebas, not launch an invasion during Trespasser. Which also means she was unauthorized to try and attack the South.
The final nail in the "authorized" coffin is what Weekes said toward the end. Powering up saarebas is a bad idea for the Qunari, but it’s the kind of short term gain long term loss DA characters make. Viddasala is one such DA character. The Triumvirate is not. The Triumvirate has been playing the long game for ages, and they aren’t about to risk it all on an volatile mixture of lyrium and saarebas that could blow up in their faces.
So, special thanks to midnight tea for providing a link to this information that proves me correct.
So what does everyone think now that Patrick Weekes has confirmed that Viddasala was unauthorized?
Sure I do. It's right here.
Okay then, let's take it line by line and see if it mentions anything about Hissrad's bosses wanting him to do anything.
"So it was definitely something we thought long and hard about."
Thinking is good.
"That said, when we got to the Qunari, we kicked around different ways to do it."
When they got around to writing the Qunari enemies in the game, they considered different methods.
"We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,'"
So they considered making the Qunari we fought in the game Vashoth, Tal-Vashoth, or otherwise a group of Qunari that divided from Par Vollen and the rest of Qunari society and set out to enforce their own idealized version of the Qun. Also that Bull doesn't believe in them or their cause.
"and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless."
They tried to talk themselves into that idea, that the Qunari we fought in the DLC were not in any way related to the Qunari society, and that Bull wouldn't side with them because they aren't real Qunari. They are Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth. An offshoot. But the writers felt that this was toothless, or didn’t have as much impact.
"It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games."
The turning point was when they realized that players didn't want to fight a bunch of ox-men who had no affiliation with Qunari society. The qunari race isn't being used anywhere but in Dragon Age, so they can do whatever they want with them.
"So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it."
If they want to say the Qunari we fight in the DLC are going to start a war, then they can have them do so. They wanted to be bold about it.
Now of course the Qunari we fought only
tried to start a war (as you admitted), and failed, so BioWare didn't really "own it", but that's neither here nor there.
The important thing is that the Qunari we fought in Trespasser were real Qunari, part of the Qunari society, just as Hissrad was.
"And in that case, the only reasonable outcome was that if you hadn't gotten Iron Bull out of the Qun, it made no sense for him to do anything but turn on you."
So according to the writers at BioWare, since we were fighting real Qunari, and Hissrad is real Qunari, the only thing that made sense (to the writers) was that Hissrad would turn on you.
Yep. Still not seeing any mention of Hissrad's bosses wanting him to turn on you though.
So I guess you were mistaken, AFM. At no point in these statements did Weekes mention anything about Hissrad's bosses or what they wanted him to do.
Iron Bull worked for the "real Qunari". Nobody playing the game would expect Iron Bull to take orders from anyone else. And he doesn't.
Yes he worked real hard for those real Qunari as he chopped them into pieces. LOL!
He worked for the Ben-Hassrath's "Dangerous Questions" branch. Viddasala, from the "Dangerous Purpose" branch, was able to trick him. Hissrad was too cowardly to think for himself and see her as a traitor who was acting without authorization in direct defiance of the Triumvirate (as per the crumpled letter). He was too afraid of being declared a Tal-Vashoth in front of his fellow Qunari to disobey Viddasala even when he knew he should have (as he had before in the Shattered Library).
So all we have here is Hissrad being foolish. He wasn't following the orders of any of his bosses. He was just blindly following the order of someone with horns on her head on the slight chance that she wasn't unauthorized as the Triumvirate letter stated.
I agree with Weekes that we fought real Qunari. That was never in dispute.
Logical deduction. Elementary.
No, you are answering a demand for present-day proof with a prediction of what will happen in a future game. Where is the war in Trespasser or immediately after Trespasser? Nowhere. You say it will happen in the future? Well then you necessarily admit that Trespasser wasn't the cause. You think it will be used as the reason for the war in the future, but that is nothing more than a prediction.
If a nation tried to destroy the leadership of your nation, it's very logical for your nation to take that as an act of war. Nothing psychic about that.
Except the Qunari
nation didn't try to destroy the leadership of any southern nation. And no southern nation has declared war on the Qunari nation, nor are they preparing for war. Nor are they at war now. Which is the point of this particular line of discussion. There is no war. You claim there will be, but that is speculation and it doesn't answer the demand for current proof. The Qunari nation did not attack the South after Dragon's Breath was foiled. Viddasala was a liar. And there never was any official plan to attack the South. The Triumvirate's plan to attack the South was always to wait until after they conquered Tevinter.
Correct. An attempt to take out a country's leadership, even if it fails, is an act of war.
An act of war that doesn't have to be authorized to still be an act of war. And it certainly isn't a
war, which is the topic of discussion. The unauthorized Viddasala misdirected the Qunari to carry out an act of war. She was thwarted. There is no war at present.
He doesn't have to do so. You don't have to like what he says, or even think it makes much sense. But he decides where the story is going and what that story has conveyed... not you.
He does if you want to make a claim about him refuting something or explaining a plot point. I wrote that if Hissrad knew it was an authorized mission the whole time, he would have attacked the Inquisitor in the elvhen ruins. That's a fact. You wrote that you don't have to refute this because Weekes does (a.k.a. because you can't). I pointed out that Weekes didn't even
address the issues of Viddasala's orders or why Hissrad doesn't turn on you until the Darvaarad. Now you're claiming that Weekes doesn't have to address them? So he refutes an argument without even addressing the subject of the argument? You're being ridiculous, and it's clear that you've lost the debate.
Well, that's your head canon of the situation. But it's incorrect, according to Weekes.
Weekes said nothing that conflicts with my explanation for why Hissrad turned. Weekes' only explanation is that we fought real Qunari and Hissrad was not pulled out of the Qun. Perfectly consistent with my explanation. Beyond that, Weekes doesn't address Viddasala's legitimacy or Hissrad's "logic" for turning on the Inquisitor.
Leliana was divine in my last playthrough so she wasn't my spymaster for two years. I highly doubt that she was reading Iron Bulls messages.
Not during those two years, but during Trespasser? Absolutely. And that is the timeframe being discussed.
Remember when I said how cute your thrashing around trying to claim "But my Qunari wouldn't do that"? Here's a perfect example, given to us after a quote from the lead writer that refutes everything you're trying to claim. Thanks for this, it's still quite amusing, to me.
I made no claim about what any Qunari would do. Almostfaceman is the one who made the claim without proof. I merely pointed out that Weekes said nothing about Hissrad's bosses or what they wanted him to do. Try reading the posts next time.
I was thinking of a conversation after the Hero of Ferelden returns home after Trespasser.
What conversation might that be?
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