1580 réponses à ce sujet

[In Exile]

Citations needed. I can type anything I want into this box, but w/out collaborating evidence, which everything presented by Weekes in this thread contradicts what you state here, it's just that, you typing stuff into the chat box, hoping nobody wants to verify your information.

Here's a concept for you to wrap your head around though: I'm a business man. I assign a subordinate to achieve a task. They are now the project leader, which means that it's their project. Does that mean they no longer work for me? Was Sten no longer a part of the Qun when the Arishok sent him to answer the question "What is the Blight?" because it became his mission? So no mission assigned can be official if everyone that can make it so isn't present for the entire thing? There sure are a lot of gymnastics required to get to this "point" aren't there.

You don't need to go that far. Governments have to delegate all the time. It's way to complex IRL for the elected political leader of a country to run every ministry. Yet if the government, say, authorized a mission whereby refugees from a certain country to off to depose their new dictator, it's not a real reply to say the agent on the ground went off mission as a reason for why the operation wasn't authorized by the government.

Responsibility for tasks performed by people to whom authority is delegates is the essence of government.

[Darkstarr11]

You don't need to go that far. Governments have to delegate all the time. It's way to complex IRL for the elected political leader of a country to run every ministry. Yet if the government, say, authorized a mission whereby refugees from a certain country to off to depose their new dictator, it's not a real reply to say the agent on the ground went off mission as a reason for why the operation wasn't authorized by the government.

Responsibility for tasks performed by people to whom authority is delegates is the essence of government.

 

 

Also why the concept of 'plausible deniability' comes in.  Leaders can claim to have no knowledge of an act while technically (or not) allowing the action to move forward.  Though it seems to end up being used a lot when things go wrong as a way to CYOB than anything else.

[Giantdeathrobot]

I've listened to the debate regarding Qun Viddasala vs. Rogue Viddasala and both sides have made very good points.  The fact that the debate and this "it's official" thread exist means that the writer(s) didn't "own it" as much as declared in the interview.  Hopefully Mr. Weekes will hone his lead writing skills to the point where he won't have to tell us via interviews and twitter what he meant to communicate in game.

 

This is not a writing issue at all. The Vidassala's mission is meant to be ambiguous at face value, but nothing other than them being sanctionned makes any real amount of sense if you look at it in detail, no matter how many times Dai tries to re-invent the meaning of half of the english dictionary to suit his viewpoint.

 

The entire point of Weekes's original interview is that they, in the end, didn't want this to be ambiguous. They didn't want players to go ''oh, this Qunari did that bad thing, but she may not have been the Real Deal so it's OK'' or anything along those lines. The Vidassala's activity was sanctionned. It was the first phase of an upcoming invasion. They want the Qun to have teeth, they gave them teeth. To me (and judging by the upvotes, to the majority of posters here), that much was crystal clear.

 

I find it far more interesting that the Vidassala was sanctioned than the other way around, too. We've been told since Origins that the Qunari want to conquer Thedas. Let's have at it then. No more hiding behind angry Arishoks and ''rogue'' agents.

[pdusen]

I thought Tresspasser was intentionally written in such a way as to leave some things open for interpretation and, perhaps, good debate.  Again, when weeding out the ad hominem and all of the other fallacies of good debate, I think that both sides of this question have made good points.  I enjoyed the debate and have come to admire posters on both sides of this topic for making good points in good ways.  I, personally, enjoyed not really being able to pick a side.  I, personally, enjoyed thinking that I could look forward to more as regards this question of rogue Viddasala or Qun Viddasala in the next game.

 

Well, you're entitled to your opinion, of course. For my part, I don't believe "both sides" of an issue have merit simply by virtue of existing. Only one side of this debate is grounding their arguments in facts or evidence, while the other is basing its points entirely on wishful thinking and mental gymnastics.

[QueenCrow]

@Giantdeathrobot

 

I get your point about the writing even though I disagree, understand and accept your opinion that you think it's far more interesting that the Vidassala was sanctioned.  It does seem to fit with what we've been shown since Origins...with the exception that we were asked as players to look at the Iron Bull through a "maybe, maybe not" filter.

 

So, ok.  Qunari are, unless we are given the option to role play one in a future game, sharp-toothed bad guys/enemies/whatever.  What's there to debate or think about now that we have been fed the official answer?  In my opinion, nothing.

 

~now moving on to something requiring more dexterous thinking~

[In Exile]

But the Qunari aren't clearly bad. Consider - there's a lot they may do that from a social and political view is clearly superior to the alternative - that they do have real social and medical advances. Is their police state worse than absolute serfdom with the Orlesian, or open slavery by a ubermensch class you can only join by the biggest accident of birth in Tevinter, better?

[Almostfaceman]

But the Qunari aren't clearly bad. Consider - there's a lot they may do that from a social and political view is clearly superior to the alternative - that they do have real social and medical advances. Is their police state worse than absolute serfdom with the Orlesian, or open slavery by a ubermensch class you can only join by the biggest accident of birth in Tevinter, better?

 

They are clearly bad. The faults of other societies in no way mitigate that. 

[In Exile]

They are clearly bad. The faults of other societies in no way mitigate that.

Well, sort of. For "bad" to have any real meaning in the setting it has to be considered comparatively - otherwise who cares?

[Almostfaceman]

Well, sort of. For "bad" to have any real meaning in the setting it has to be considered comparatively - otherwise who cares?

 

Not necessarily. "Why" they're bad rather than the "amount" of badness can be interesting, story wise. 

 

An example: for some, the total control, reeducation camps, job assignments would be more terrifying than, say, being stuck in an alienage. 

 

But that doesn't mean any of us would like some religious bureaucracy re-educate us every time we sneezed wrong. That's bad. Very bad. 

[KaiserShep]

Guys, please stop discussing real world issues. You're going to get this thread locked.

Anyway, Patrick Weekes clearly stated that the Qunari in Trespasser are differentiated from the rest of Qunari society based on their stated goal of powering up the saarebas.

John Epler identified Viddasala as the leader, proving it was her operation, not Par Vollen's.

Everyone who has been claiming that writer statements settle the issue should hold to their own advice here.

 

 

Just a thought: if Shepard sabotaged the genophage, the krogan could rightfully hold the Alliance itself responsible. After all, Hackett granted Shepard the authority to act on its behalf. 

[midnight tea]

They are clearly bad. The faults of other societies in no way mitigate that. 

 

As much as I think the Qun as it is now either has to go or change on some fundamental level, I wouldn't say that the Qunari are just all "bad". I'm not for writing off a society and all its aspects just because they happen to take their ideas to the extreme - analyze what can be learned from them, apply moderation and we might get something from that system that may make sense, while discarding elements that don't.

[Almostfaceman]

As much as I think the Qun as it is now either has to go or change on some fundamental level, I wouldn't say that the Qunari are just all "bad". I'm not for writing off a society and all its aspects just because they happen to take their ideas to the extreme - analyze what can be learned from them, apply moderation and we might get something from that system that may make sense, while discarding elements that don't.

 

No offense, but I'm not sure why you felt the need to tell me this. 

 

[Heimdall]

But the Qunari aren't clearly bad. Consider - there's a lot they may do that from a social and political view is clearly superior to the alternative - that they do have real social and medical advances. Is their police state worse than absolute serfdom with the Orlesian, or open slavery by a ubermensch class you can only join by the biggest accident of birth in Tevinter, better?

What disturbs me about the Qun society is how little questioning it allows for, not solely it's lack of individual agency. Not to say that the other societies embrace criticism, but at least I can see the potential for change. The way the Qun polices thought itself makes this a much less likely possibility.

[KaiserShep]

What disturbs me about the Qun society is how little questioning it allows for not solely it's lack of individual agency. Not to say that the other societies embrace criticism, but at least I can see the potential for change. The way the Qun polices thought itself makes this a much less likely possibility.

 

 

This is pretty much the core of its problem. The Qunari utilize what is essentially fantasy MKULTRA. 

[In Exile]

Not necessarily. "Why" they're bad rather than the "amount" of badness can be interesting, story wise.

An example: for some, the total control, reeducation camps, job assignments would be more terrifying than, say, being stuck in an alienage.

But that doesn't mean any of us would like some religious bureaucracy re-educate us every time we sneezed wrong. That's bad. Very bad.

But you have all that anyway in an alienage. A total loss of control by being subject to a legal regime that grants you no protection and your abusers much protection. There's no forced job assignment because you're precluded from all of them - apart from the minor service oriented jobs in your community. It's a different sort of bad, sure. But of the Qunari have a modern style social service system - public health care and so on - there are measurable improvements in quality of life even as people are subjected to a totalitarian state.

My point isn't that this is additive - just that saying one system seems abysmal does not tell us much without looking at the others and saying what it is about it that makes it abysmal in setting. If you make a crap sack world, I wouldn't say you set out to make any one group the "bad"guys.

[Giantdeathrobot]

@Giantdeathrobot

 

I get your point about the writing even though I disagree, understand and accept your opinion that you think it's far more interesting that the Vidassala was sanctioned.  It does seem to fit with what we've been shown since Origins...with the exception that we were asked as players to look at the Iron Bull through a "maybe, maybe not" filter.

 

So, ok.  Qunari are, unless we are given the option to role play one in a future game, sharp-toothed bad guys/enemies/whatever.  What's there to debate or think about now that we have been fed the official answer?  In my opinion, nothing.

 

~now moving on to something requiring more dexterous thinking~

 

Who's saying it makes them bad guys? It makes them long-term antagonists to the South, just as Ferelden and Orlais are long-term antagonists for instance.

 

Or consider a Qunari vs Tevinter scenario. Who's the bad guy here? The Tevinter, with their slaving, powermongering ways? The Qunari, with their totalitarian rigidness and zealous principles? Both? None? Some bad, some good everywhere? Where does Solas factor in this? If if writers can pull this off (and I for one have faith in Weekes, more than I had in Gaider to be quite honest), this could turn into a treasure trove of interesting conflicts, stories and characters. Far more than a ME2's Cerberus-esque ''look at all the rogue agents that conveniently take the fall every time we do something naughty!'' sillyness.

 

The Qun have never been portrayed are unilaterally evil; indeed, a common complaint of Inquisition pre-Trespasser is that the game whitewashed them via Iron Bull. Trespasser itself reminds us that, while the Qun is remarkably egaliatarian for its epoch, it comes at the cost of most personal freedoms, in the Qun itself and, if they have their way, everywhere else. That's good. It makes them something to be feared, rather than annoying nuisances who send a quirky rogue agent our way every so often to serve as a miniboss on the way to real problems.

[Almostfaceman]

But you have all that anyway in an alienage. A total loss of control by being subject to a legal regime that grants you no protection and your abusers much protection. There's no forced job assignment because you're precluded from all of them - apart from the minor service oriented jobs in your community. It's a different sort of bad, sure. But of the Qunari have a modern style social service system - public health care and so on - there are measurable improvements in quality of life even as people are subjected to a totalitarian state.

My point isn't that this is additive - just that saying one system seems abysmal does not tell us much without looking at the others and saying what it is about it that makes it abysmal in setting. If you make a crap sack world, I wouldn't say you set out to make any one group the "bad"guys.

 

I never said Bioware set out to make any one group the bad guys. Where's that coming from? 

 

You said "the Qunari aren't clearly bad". I said the Qun (the Qunari)  are bad. None of us would want to live under the Qun. We all value freedom and individuality. None of the "good" aspects of their society change this fact. When we met Sten and learned about the Qun, we all thought it would be a terrible thing to live under. And it would. We'd all rather live in our modern democracies, flawed as they may be. 

 

In no way does this negate the "badness" of Tevinter. Or of any other society in Thedas. None of us would want to live in an alienage, for example.  I never even implied that. 

 

The "good aspects" of any of the Thedas societies are not relevant to my comments except where I noted that the societies could be bad in different ways. I never denied any good aspects existed. 

[Kurogane335]

You said "the Qunari aren't clearly bad". I said the Qun (the Qunari)  are bad. None of us would want to live under the Qun. We all value freedom and individuality. None of the "good" aspects of their society change this fact. When we met Sten and learned about the Qun, we all thought it would be a terrible thing to live under. And it would. We'd all rather live in our modern democracies, flawed as they may be.

Speak for yourself. I find a society which cares about all its members a lot more attractive than one which caters only to its elite, rest on a very corrupting ideology (Free Market and all the bullshit "creeds" it bred), especially when there is freedom under the Qun, almost as much as we enjoy already. After all, what freedom is allowed to the poor in our own world ? Even less than peoples under the Qun if they want to scrap anything to barely survive. ANd they don't get the belief that they are a cog in the machine which is just as respectable than any other.

[Heimdall]

Speak for yourself. I find a society which cares about all its members a lot more attractive than one which caters only to its elite, rest on a very corrupting ideology (Free Market and all the bullshit "creeds" it bred), especially when there is freedom under the Qun, almost as much as we enjoy already. After all, what freedom is allowed to the poor in our own world ? Even less than peoples under the Qun if they want to scrap anything to barely survive. ANd they don't get the belief that they are a cog in the machine which is just as respectable than any other.

The freedom to protest injustice and lobby for improvement?

[Giantdeathrobot]

The freedom to protest injustice and lobby for improvement?

 

We saw how far this went for the City Elves, for instance. Even after tons of... lobbying and much protests by Briala and her group, Celene jettisoned them as soon as it was convenient for her to do so. And it seems no amount of protest or lobbying by the slaves of Tevinter will free them from their condition unless Dorian really manages to reform the Imperium in depth.

 

I mean, I don't really like the Qun, and I wouldn't want to live under it, but in a world such as Thedas were the vast majority of the population are poor and variously downtrodden people ruled by blue-blooded elites who only sometimes care about them in any way, the idea of a society that gives everyone a place according to their skills and values them as a cog in a great big machine doesn't seem so bad, to be honest. It's easier to value freedom in our modern world; in Thedas, where you are most likely to be born a peasant at the mercy of any local Lord, to say nothing of the variety of monsters that want to kill you or worse, trading that freedom for a sense of purpose and security doesn't seem like such a raw deal to me.

[Darkstarr11]

Speak for yourself. I find a society which cares about all its members a lot more attractive than one which caters only to its elite, rest on a very corrupting ideology (Free Market and all the bullshit "creeds" it bred), especially when there is freedom under the Qun, almost as much as we enjoy already. After all, what freedom is allowed to the poor in our own world ? Even less than peoples under the Qun if they want to scrap anything to barely survive. ANd they don't get the belief that they are a cog in the machine which is just as respectable than any other.

 

 

The freedom to protest injustice and lobby for improvement?

 

 

I don't know, he might have a point Heimdall.  After all, a baker SHOULD accept his lot.  One too many chocolate chips on that cookie?  Re-educate that sucker.  If he can't get it straight...well, he can be replaced, right...

 

And lobbying for improvement in the Qun seems to be asking to be 'lobbied' head first via trebuchet towards enemies of the Qun

[Addictress]

The freedom to protest injustice and lobby for improvement?

Right, the poor and uneducated have the time and resources to effect change in the government >_>

[QueenCrow]

Who's saying it makes them bad guys? It makes them long-term antagonists to the South, just as Ferelden and Orlais are long-term antagonists for instance.

 

Or consider a Qunari vs Tevinter scenario. Who's the bad guy here? The Tevinter, with their slaving, powermongering ways? The Qunari, with their totalitarian rigidness and zealous principles? Both? None? Some bad, some good everywhere? Where does Solas factor in this? If if writers can pull this off (and I for one have faith in Weekes, more than I had in Gaider to be quite honest), this could turn into a treasure trove of interesting conflicts, stories and characters. Far more than a ME2's Cerberus-esque ''look at all the rogue agents that conveniently take the fall every time we do something naughty!'' sillyness.

 

The Qun have never been portrayed are unilaterally evil; indeed, a common complaint of Inquisition pre-Trespasser is that the game whitewashed them via Iron Bull. Trespasser itself reminds us that, while the Qun is remarkably egaliatarian for its epoch, it comes at the cost of most personal freedoms, in the Qun itself and, if they have their way, everywhere else. That's good. It makes them something to be feared, rather than annoying nuisances who send a quirky rogue agent our way every so often to serve as a miniboss on the way to real problems.

 

The mistake I made in discussing the subject with you was in thinking that we were discussing the Viddasala's actions and the official announcement that all of those actions were not the acts of an extremist with a following gone off the hinges and the implications of official Qun sanction.  Another example of such a character is Lord Seeker Lucius.  But just as the implication would have been vastly different if Lord Seeker Lucius had behaved with full sanction of the Templar Order and the Chantry, physical and ethical implications are different knowing that Dragonsbreath and jacking up saarebas pre-invasion/war was done with full sanction of the Qunari.  And from the perspective of any of the protagonists we've played - two Fereldens and a Marcher - long term antagonism (them as the bad guys in us vs. them) seems locked down.

 

On a side note, it's starting to dawn on me that discussion of perceptions, or official announcements, don't really matter.  If we play DA4, we'll kill whomever is written as the antagonist/bad guy/enemy and is activated in the programming as combat hostile.  The decision is often made for us that way. 

 

And though I readily admit that I can be slow on the uptake when fiction inspires imagination, perhaps it's better save deeper philosophical and ethical conversations or debates for fictional subjects in which there is clearly room for various canon opinions.  Personally, I find those most enjoyable.

 

Please have a great weekend, Giantdeathrobot. 

[QueenCrow]

Speak for yourself. I find a society which cares about all its members a lot more attractive than one which caters only to its elite, rest on a very corrupting ideology (Free Market and all the bullshit "creeds" it bred), especially when there is freedom under the Qun, almost as much as we enjoy already. After all, what freedom is allowed to the poor in our own world ? Even less than peoples under the Qun if they want to scrap anything to barely survive. ANd they don't get the belief that they are a cog in the machine which is just as respectable than any other.

 

You know what I admire about your thoughts?  You appear moderate to me.  Your thoughts are not the the extremes - "must be black and white - there is only one right answer or way of looking at this - if you don't agree with me its because you can't see the truth".  You are willing and capable of seeing something good in a fictional people when others would cheer for genocide.

 

Aside from any personal opinions I have on the Qunari or the Qun (my opinons are not exactly in line with yours), I want to tell you that I appreciate your commentary and find your perspective enlightening.

 

Please have a good weekend!

[Secret Rare]

in a world such as Thedas were the vast majority of the population are poor and variously downtrodden people ruled by blue-blooded elites who only sometimes care about them in any way

You think that the Earth is so much different?