1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Giantdeathrobot]

You think that the Earth is so much different?

 

Depends on where you live, and that's all I'm going to say about that. I didn't want to bring real world politics in this overmuch.

[Cyberstrike nTo]

Speak for yourself. I find a society which cares about all its members a lot more attractive than one which caters only to its elite, rest on a very corrupting ideology (Free Market and all the bullshit "creeds" it bred), especially when there is freedom under the Qun, almost as much as we enjoy already. After all, what freedom is allowed to the poor in our own world ? Even less than peoples under the Qun if they want to scrap anything to barely survive. ANd they don't get the belief that they are a cog in the machine which is just as respectable than any other.

 

I get the appeal of the Qun's "state over the individual" especially if the state is offering a better deal than individualism can offer. I even get the appeal of people having a predetermined role in a society, but let me put to you this way: I might like to visit Par Vallon, but I'm not sure that I would want to live there. 

[Kurogane335]

You know what I admire about your thoughts?  You appear moderate to me.  Your thoughts are not the the extremes - "must be black and white - there is only one right answer or way of looking at this - if you don't agree with me its because you can't see the truth".  You are willing and capable of seeing something good in a fictional people when others would cheer for genocide.

 

Aside from any personal opinions I have on the Qunari or the Qun (my opinons are not exactly in line with yours), I want to tell you that I appreciate your commentary and find your perspective enlightening.

 

Please have a good weekend!

Well, thanks you... even if I can be really radical when it comes to Tevinter

 

On the subject of changes in the Qun, I think that they are quite possible, perhaps more easily than in other nations, but in the same time, much more harder, and here's why. The Qun as it is is both a religion and a philosophy, but contrary to the Andrastian beliefs, it has no deity nor "Prophet" which hands down divine will. instead it has a philosopher, Koslun, trying to make sense out of the world (kind of like Buddha, in that aspect). Take out Koslun and the Qun isn't put into danger, but take out Andraste or the Maker and this religion fall on its head (again it's make the Qun closer to Confucianism and Buddhism in that respect).

 

But the tenets of the Qun as penned by Koslun somehow seems different than how they are implemented by the current Qunari. Why so ? After all, Koslun is the founder of this faith and even civilization, in a sense.  How can the Qunari have strayed away from his thoughts, at least partially ?

 

The answer is that in their eyes they haven't. They believe that they are still true to what Koslun wanted. But what makes them think so ? The Ashkaari. That's the title that Koslun had, but even in modern Thedas, there still exist Ashkaari (Saarath was one himself, before his magic manifested). But, once a great Philosophy/Religion has been penned down, what is the purpose of Ashkaari ? One can guess that it is to interpret the wills of Koslun and think about what the Qunh is and isn't. It is quite a daunting role, because it actually means that Qunari have to think hard about their beliefs. But obviously, most of the Ashkaari are probably very "orthodoxes" (in regard to what the Qun of today is, that is, not necessarily compared to what Koslun wanted it to be).

 

That's where I've a personal theory : The Kossith had created a sub-species of warriors, the modern day Qunari (implied by Bull saying that they were/are very different from the Qunari) which suffered from violent outburst of rage and a need to fight/kill, hence why the faith that Koslun created is so hard on controls over oneself and thus the world. But I don't think it was as harsh on that as it is today. It was probably a war with the Kossith, one which forced the Qunari to flee their homelands at one point of another, which explains why, over time, the current orthodoxy cemented, probably with the belief that lasting piece and even survival for their kin was possible only if everyone was converted to the Qun. But such a shift probably necessitated validation by "theological/philosophical" experts : the Ashkaari of the time. Meaning that modern Qun could be reformed if the current Ashkaari, or at least an overwhelming majority of them came together to change the way the Demands of the Qun and Koslun's beliefs are understood.

 

That's why it is both easier to reform the Qun (you only need to convince a relatively small number of people) and harder (those people are probably almost all supporting the current interpretation while believing that it is the right one) than any other society/religion in Thedas.

 

However, it is my belief that the Qunari society is more diverse than it may seems at first glance. I think that there is minorities among the Ashkaari who still discuss the Qun, otherwise there wouldn't be any need for Ashkaari in the society, other Ben-Hassrath could simply promote the "gospel", so to speak, without the need of philosophers. Furthermore, plurality is at the heart of the Qunari society (with the Ariqun, Arishok and Arigena having to -apparently- discuss and choose together the course of actions which will engage the whole of their society, hence why the Arigena and the Ariqun were able to denounce the Arishok actions after DA:II and why said actions were unlawful for the Qunari, if understandable because of the very peculiar context of Kirkwall at that time).

 

Now, to come back to the case of the Viddasala, her forces are legit Qunari for me for one very simple reason : there was Antaam soldiers along her Ben-Hassrath and while we haven't seen seem, I think there was also workers helping to extract lyrium and brew the gaatlok. Basically, it was a microcosm of the Qunari society in time of war and it is quite probable that the Viddasala was actually given control of the soldiers and workers (who are both outside of her purview in principle) by the Triumvirate.

 

AT least that's how I see things.

[midnight tea]

Speak for yourself. I find a society which cares about all its members a lot more attractive than one which caters only to its elite, rest on a very corrupting ideology (Free Market and all the bullshit "creeds" it bred), especially when there is freedom under the Qun, almost as much as we enjoy already. After all, what freedom is allowed to the poor in our own world ? Even less than peoples under the Qun if they want to scrap anything to barely survive. ANd they don't get the belief that they are a cog in the machine which is just as respectable than any other.

 

What freedom?

 

The Qunari have very little to do with freedom - it's a police state where people are so oppressed they themselves have to police their own minds, otherwise they're threatened with becoming Tal-Vashoth (which Qunari equate with losing their minds) or being "re-educated". The appeal the Qun has to poor and downtrodden informs us that we should ask us some legit questions about state of the world, but do you really think that what Qunari currently offers is "better freedom"? 

 

Also - freedom to who?

 

Iron Bull tells us that Cass and Cullen might be doing ok under the Qun since they like rules - but he also says that Solas, Dorian and Vivienne would die (aside from being mages, they're too politial or just weird), they'd kill Cole "because demon" and Sera would end up with her mind broken (and she's the one fighting for the little people), sweeping some floors in shops in Par Vollen.

 

... You call that freedom?

 

And it's not even that the Qunari don't have some good ideas, or ideas that can be successfully implemented and even beneficial for society as a whole, as we know even from our modern world, like social care and the like - it's just not worth the price of what Qunari are doing to people as of now in order to provide them with it. We know these systems work without having to turn a country into a totalitarian police state bent on conquering everything.

 

I mean, I've already mentioned Dorian, who points out to Inquisitor, that at least in the Imperium those who are poor or in a difficult spot can sell themselves to slavery and that way get themselves on their feet or care for their families - effectively, this does appear to be a better system than just not giving the poor any or very limited opportunities in life like in the South. But nobody in the right mind would say that slavery is better, ey? And the Qunari simply offer a different kind of slavery.

[Heimdall]

We saw how far this went for the City Elves, for instance. Even after tons of... lobbying and much protests by Briala and her group, Celene jettisoned them as soon as it was convenient for her to do so. And it seems no amount of protest or lobbying by the slaves of Tevinter will free them from their condition unless Dorian really manages to reform the Imperium in depth.

I mean, I don't really like the Qun, and I wouldn't want to live under it, but in a world such as Thedas were the vast majority of the population are poor and variously downtrodden people ruled by blue-blooded elites who only sometimes care about them in any way, the idea of a society that gives everyone a place according to their skills and values them as a cog in a great big machine doesn't seem so bad, to be honest. It's easier to value freedom in our modern world; in Thedas, where you are most likely to be born a peasant at the mercy of any local Lord, to say nothing of the variety of monsters that want to kill you or worse, trading that freedom for a sense of purpose and security doesn't seem like such a raw deal to me.

I don't mean to suggest that the kingdoms of Thedas allow for a great deal of protest or lobbying themselves, especially without consequence. But peasants do have the option of petitioning their lord and significant unrest among the peasantry or lower nobility can at least make large issues relevant to them difficult to ignore. Whether those issues will be addressed is largely dependent on the disposition of the individual lord, but they do at least have an incentive to protect their subjects in times of crisis, being their source of income (Funnily enough, this reciprocal aspect of the feudal relationship is actually something that Karl Marx praised). This is less help to a minority population like the elves, I realize.

The difference with the Qun is the incredible lengths they go to to make sure nobody even thinks there is a problem. They have an entire apparatus developed to make sure anyone who questions is reeducated or lobotomized. You hear this kind of insanity from the Arishok in DA2, there is no dissatisfaction in the Qun because anyone that is dissatisfied is not part of the Qun (And eliminated one way or another).

I do object to your characterization of Celene's actions though. Celene pushed through improvements to the elven condition for decades at great political cost. She purged Halamshiral because they were in open revolt against her rule and at that point such a drastic show of leniency would have cost her throne (And with it, likely all the advancements she had made for the elves in the past decades, unless you really think Gaspard would have upheld them given how hard he worked to use it against her). I don't think saying that she "jettisoned them when it was convenient" is a fair assessment.

[Dai Grepher]

Now, to come back to the case of the Viddasala, her forces are legit Qunari for me for one very simple reason : there was Antaam soldiers along her Ben-Hassrath and while we haven't seen seem, I think there was also workers helping to extract lyrium and brew the gaatlok.

No there weren't. The note in the Darvaarad indicates that those brewing the gaatlok were inexperienced, as someone kept messing up and releasing poison gas into the air because they got the mixture wrong. As for the Antaam, they are supposed to accompany the Ben-Hassrath on dangerous missions of any kind if they need to be defended, and their primary purpose was to defend them in the elvhen ruins.

Basically, it was a microcosm of the Qunari society in time of war and it is quite probable that the Viddasala was actually given control of the soldiers and workers (who are both outside of her purview in principle) by the Triumvirate.

Wouldn't make sense to do that. The Triumvirate would have had different agents focused on different aspects of Dragon's Breath. Instead, Viddasala was overseeing all aspects at once. This is why the entire operation was sloppy, that and her needing to keep it a secret from the Triumvirate.

Had this been a serious war effort, Qunadar would have sent more official high-ranking agents, not just Viddasala. Had there been a contingency plan to disavow the plan upon discovery, then the entire Dragon's Breath operation would have been aborted as soon as the wounded Qunari was found in the Winter Palace.

[Serza]

JESUS. YOU'RE STILL ON IT.

 

I THOUGHT I WAS CRAZY.

[Almostfaceman]

Speak for yourself. I find a society which cares about all its members a lot more attractive than one which caters only to its elite, rest on a very corrupting ideology (Free Market and all the bullshit "creeds" it bred), especially when there is freedom under the Qun, almost as much as we enjoy already. After all, what freedom is allowed to the poor in our own world ? Even less than peoples under the Qun if they want to scrap anything to barely survive. ANd they don't get the belief that they are a cog in the machine which is just as respectable than any other.

 

There's no freedom under the Qun. You become what they want you to become and you do what they want you to do, how they want you to do it. If you don't, they kill you or they "re-educate" you. 

 

It's meant to be a fairly typical Orwellian society. 

[Kurogane335]

There's no freedom under the Qun. You become what they want you to become and you do what they want you to do, how they want you to do it. If you don't, they kill you or they "re-educate" you. 

 

It's meant to be a fairly typical Orwellian society. 

And what "freedom" is there in Orlais, Tevinter or anywhere else if you're not well born ? Next to none and nobody care for you because your just a miserable rabble who just has the right to live in the dirt. People always conflate the fact the fact that under the Qun you are delivered to the part of society you're the most suited with no freedom when it is absolutely not the case. It just so happens that the Qunari have willingly chosen to create a society where the freedom of one serves the betterment of the whole, when in the rest of Thedas the freedoms of one is meant to serve one and one only.

 

Basically, if you're a baker in Val Royau and that a Chevalier want to have his way with you, you have no actual freedom because the whole society is staked against you. In Qunandar, the whole society would be staked to protect the baker and get justice to her if a member of the Antaam had his way with her. Better : if one is talented, he can go throughout all the ranks, from lowest to the very top. it is next to impossible in any other nation (and utterly impossible in Tevinter if one is a mage).

[Almostfaceman]

And what "freedom" is there in Orlais, 

 

Completely irrelevant. This isn't a Tevinter vs. Qunari thing. The crappiness of one society doesn't mean that the Qun has any freedom. 

[Almostfaceman]

 People always conflate the fact the fact that under the Qun you are delivered to the part of society you're the most suited with no freedom when it is absolutely not the case. It just so happens that the Qunari have willingly chosen to create a society where the freedom of one serves the betterment of the whole, when in the rest of Thedas the freedoms of one is meant to serve one and one only.

 

 

You are "delivered"? No, you are forced. Forced =/= freedom.

 

We have no idea if the Qunari had one big democratic vote at the inception of their society. I'm not sure where you're getting "willingly chosen" from. Source? 

[Kurogane335]

I don't think anyone had a one big democratic vote at the inception of any society. Asking it out of the Qun and not any other civilization is double standard. The fact is that for the Qunari, it is the mindset of the other societies which is alien and disturbed. Who are we to say that they are wrong ?

[Serza]

Qun? Freedom? My trigger finger itches whenever I see Qunari. Twice as much because it can't do squat. (Proud Chairborne!)

[midnight tea]

I don't think anyone had a one big democratic vote at the inception of any society. Asking it out of the Qun and not any other civilization is double standard. The fact is that for the Qunari, it is the mindset of the other societies which is alien and disturbed. Who are we to say that they are wrong ?

 

Er... because we've had enough of a sample to think that their ideas about the world are messed up.

 

Plus, I personally think it's sort of a bad idea to see that if there's one awful and other awful, we just have to replace it with another awful. People should just try and rise above it.

[thats1evildude]

The qunari would say that freedom is an illusion and the only choice is whether or not to exist.

[Almostfaceman]

I don't think anyone had a one big democratic vote at the inception of any society. Asking it out of the Qun and not any other civilization is double standard. The fact is that for the Qunari, it is the mindset of the other societies which is alien and disturbed. Who are we to say that they are wrong ?

 

I notice you didn't answer my question. But you are the one who asserted that their society was "willingly chosen".

 

Who are we to say? We have brains don't we? 

[Kurogane335]

Er... because we've had enough of a sample to think that their ideas about the world are messed up.

 

Plus, I personally think it's sort of a bad idea to see that there's one awful and another awful, so we have to replace it with another awful. People should just try and rise above it.

 

You see them as messed up. i don't. Their implementation of their ideas is partially wrong, but overall, their vision of the world seems leagues better than any other in Thedas or in most fictions.

 

I notice you didn't answer my question. But you are the one who asserted that their society was "willingly chosen".

 

Who are we to say? We have brains don't we?

I believe it was freely chosen because the tenets of the Qun at its beginning, from what we learnt, was to create a new society, one which would get ride of misery, but and end to the suffering of the poorest part of a society at the hands of their "betters". And once again, having brains, once they have been corrupted by one of the worst form of civilization (the capitalism, which exalts, greed, arrogance, envy, pride and contempt to strive) hardly is evidence enough of the Qunari being wrong.

[midnight tea]

You see them as messed up. i don't. Their implementation of their ideas is partially wrong, but overall, their vision of the world seems leagues better than any other in Thedas or in most fictions.

 

I see them as messed up precisely because of the implementation of ideas. While the intentions matter, the HOW is far more important than the WHAT, because it speaks volumes of how people interpret or actually adhere to their ideas. I've been saying that ever since we began this discussion. Heck, we both played the game that made it one of the main themes in overall story.

[Almostfaceman]

You see them as messed up. i don't. Their implementation of their ideas is partially wrong, but overall, their vision of the world seems leagues better than any other in Thedas or in most fictions.

 

I believe it was freely chosen because the tenets of the Qun at its beginning, from what we learnt, was to create a new society, one which would get ride of misery, but and end to the suffering of the poorest part of a society at the hands of their "betters". And once again, having brains, once they have been corrupted by one of the worst form of civilization (the capitalism, which exalts, greed, arrogance, envy, pride and contempt to strive) hardly is evidence enough of the Qunari being wrong.

 

So you have no evidence that their society was "willingly chosen". Gotcha. 

 

The Qun is the height of arrogance. The leadership believe that they have the right to dictate who does what, when, and how. They also think they can tell one how they should think about what they do, when, and how. There's nothing desirable about that, just like there's nothing desirable about being a Tevinter slave, or an elf being treated like a sub-human in an alienage. 

[Heimdall]

You see them as messed up. i don't. Their implementation of their ideas is partially wrong, but overall, their vision of the world seems leagues better than any other in Thedas or in most fictions.

I believe it was freely chosen because the tenets of the Qun at its beginning, from what we learnt, was to create a new society, one which would get ride of misery, but and end to the suffering of the poorest part of a society at the hands of their "betters". And once again, having brains, once they have been corrupted by one of the worst form of civilization (the capitalism, which exalts, greed, arrogance, envy, pride and contempt to strive) hardly is evidence enough of the Qunari being wrong.

I get it, you have a demonizing view of capitalism, but have you paused to realize that the feudal society of Ferelden, Orlais, Tevinter and others are not capitalist societies?

They're essentially feudal in social structure and economy, with power focused almost exclusively in the hands of a hereditary landed elite (Antiva seems to be an exeption). Or at least, they're in a hybrid state at the moment. They haven't quite reached the point that western societies reached where the newly wealthy mercantile class was able to challenge the political and economic domination of the landed elite.

As to the Qunari "vision of the world", they're the most imperialistic ethnocentric culture in this setting, surpassing even Tevinter. Tevinter sees its culture as superior, but it doesn't dehumanize non-Tevinter. Non-Qunari are "things" according to the Qun, where they hold that the Qun is the only legitimate way to exist and that this must be forced upon the world for the greater good. You seem to hold the view that because the Qun employs greater good justification for its totalitarianism this makes it just and superior. I'm concerned by your lack of historical awareness of all that has been done in the name of the greater good.

[In Exile]

So you have no evidence that their society was "willingly chosen". Gotcha.

The Qun is the height of arrogance. The leadership believe that they have the right to dictate who does what, when, and how. They also think they can tell one how they should think about what they do, when, and how. There's nothing desirable about that, just like there's nothing desirable about being a Tevinter slave, or an elf being treated like a sub-human in an alienage.

Every society thinks they can do that - and they're right. That's the point of a society, and laws. Laws tell us what to do, when to do it, and how to do it.

[Almostfaceman]

Every society thinks they can do that - and they're right. That's the point of a society, and laws. Laws tell us what to do, when to do it, and how to do it.

 

Um, no. General code of conduct, such as "murder is bad you go to jail" is not the same as telling you what you're going to do for a living and how you have to think about it. 

[Heimdall]

Every society thinks they can do that - and they're right. That's the point of a society, and laws. Laws tell us what to do, when to do it, and how to do it.

Its a matter of where that authority is located, whether concentrated in a central authority or partially diffused unto individual agency.

[QueenCrow]

(*snip*) ...

 

I believe it was freely chosen because the tenets of the Qun at its beginning, from what we learnt, was to create a new society, one which would get ride of misery, but and end to the suffering ...

 

I believe I understand what you're referring to here - A codex on the Qun, the very first "Canto".  It reminds me of the Noble Truths of Buddhism, and makes me think that perhaps the Qun, in practice, was skewed away from its philosophical essence, as you've already suggested in the great write-up of your thoughts that you offered for me.  Thank you very much for that, by the way.  It's an interesting read.

 

 

 

Existence is a choice.
There is no chaos in the world, only complexity.
Knowledge of the complex is wisdom.
From wisdom of the world comes wisdom of the self.
Mastery of the self is mastery of the world. Loss of the self is the source of suffering.
Suffering is a choice, and we can refuse it.
It is in our own power to create the world, or destroy it. 

 

On a side note, since you seem someone who is interested enough to take the time to reply, do you have any thoughts on what Corypheus potentially shouts at Iron Bull during the boss fight - that his race is just a mistake, or something like that?  Any answer is understandably speculation and will be appreciated!

[Almostfaceman]

None of us would be having this conversation if we were under the Qun. No freedom of association. There would be no newspaper editorials criticizing the government. There would be no Saturday Night Live shows making fun of one leader or another. No kids dreaming of becoming an astronaut or newspaper editor or cop - then making it become reality. No civil rights movements. I could go on.