1580 réponses à ce sujet

[thesuperdarkone2]

The qun is pretty much a fantasy version of the Borg

[In Exile]

Um, no. General code of conduct, such as "murder is bad you go to jail" is not the same as telling you what you're going to do for a living and how you have to think about it.

Licenses exist. They are a part of the many regulations that exist. The fact that you have to go to school for X years to become a particular kind of professional, or that you have to adhere to certain standards to practice, or that you have to adhere to certain regulations to run a particular kind of business - the very essence of modern society (and even ancient society) is to have rules about how you can earn a living and what you can do with property.

Note that in my post I never talked about what you can think - and pratically even the Qun can't outlaw that one (they don't have the means to police thoughts).

[Almostfaceman]

Licenses exist. They are a part of the many regulations that exist. The fact that you have to go to school for X years to become a particular kind of professional, or that you have to adhere to certain standards to practice, or that you have to adhere to certain regulations to run a particular kind of business - the very essence of modern society (and even ancient society) is to have rules about how you can earn a living and what you can do with property.

Note that in my post I never talked about what you can think - and pratically even the Qun can't outlaw that one (they don't have the means to police thoughts).

 

Well thanks for telling me licenses exist. I didn't know that before you told me. 

 

It's still not the same thing and you know it. So stop arguing with me. 

[In Exile]

Its a matter of where that authority is located, whether concentrated in a central authority or partially diffused unto individual agency.

That doesn't necessarily go how you think. For example, the US has a less centralized criminal law than Canada, but that's not really a material difference. And medieval fiefdoms were quite diffused, but they weren't fairer societies or more just. The issue is much more about the individual facts.

[In Exile]

None of us would be having this conversation if we were under the Qun. No freedom of association. There would be no newspaper editorials criticizing the government. There would be no Saturday Night Live shows making fun of one leader or another. No kids dreaming of becoming an astronaut or newspaper editor or cop - then making it become reality. No civil rights movements. I could go on.

Sure, but these things don't exist in medieval societies either. Not in any way we understand anyway. So I still don't get your point. In fact it's an absurd anachronism that Thedas is anywhere near as literate as we see it.

[In Exile]

Well thanks for telling me licenses exist. I didn't know that before you told me.

It's still not the same thing and you know it. So stop arguing with me.

I'm definetly going to stop discussing with you because you're clearly not interested a good faith discussion. The Qun isn't awful because it regulated behavior. That's nonsense. It's bad because of how it does it, but that's about real nuance. It's bad in a different way from how the USSR was bad because we can have principled objections to the system, and it's not just about deliberate oppression by oligarchs.

But if you'd rather make half-baked analogies to modern rights that don't exist in the setting, I'm absolutely delighted to never address one of your points again.

[Almostfaceman]

Sure, but these things don't exist in medieval societies either. Not in any way we understand anyway. So I still don't get your point. In fact it's an absurd anachronism that Thedas is anywhere near as literate as we see it.

 

Well perhaps if you pull your head out of your behind and quit taking things so literally, then maybe you'd figure it out. My point was that the Qun wasn't a society you'd want to live under. Freedoms are greatly constrained. 

[In Exile]

Well perhaps if you pull your head out of your behind and quit taking things so literally, then maybe you'd figure it out. My point was that the Qun wasn't a society you'd want to live under. Freedoms are greatly constrained.

I wouldn't want to live in Tevinter, Orlais or Ferelden either, but that doesn't prove much of anything.

[Almostfaceman]

I wouldn't want to live in Tevinter, Orlais or Ferelden either, but that doesn't prove much of anything.

 

That doesn't prove much of anything in what context? Were you following at all the conversation I was having, how I was explaining the restrictive government that is the Qun and why we wouldn't want to live under it? 

[Almostfaceman]

I wouldn't want to live in Tevinter, Orlais or Ferelden either, but that doesn't prove much of anything.

 

How 'bout you stop butting in the conversation if you can't follow its context. 

[SweetTeaholic]

Well at least we're not arguing against what the writer said fact now, right?

[Almostfaceman]

Well at least we're not arguing against what the writer said fact now, right?

 

Careful, we're all using words. So we're all just saying the same thing. 

[Almostfaceman]

I have a proposal for anyone who doesn't see the Qun as "bad". 

 

I'll set up the Qun at my house. I'll be the Triumvirate. All of you will let me be your leader. I'll tell you what to do every day. When to do so. How to do it. You'll pay me to work for me and in return I'll take away all the burdens of making your own decisions. I'll fill your head with a lot of philosophy so you can feel really good about me bossing you around. If you don't do what I tell you to do I can kill you. Or I can water-board you until you see things my way. Because the Qun. 

 

I mean, how is that worse than, say, living somewhere that you have a voice in setting things up? Where you can decide what religion you want to practice. What job you want to have. Who you want to have a family with. 

 

It's all the same right? It's all just rules and regulations and a society. And licenses. 

[Dai Grepher]

Well at least we're not arguing against what the writer said fact now, right?

Since the second video link was posted by midnight tea, those on the "authorized" side are now arguing against what Patrick Weekes and John Epler said about the operation not being authorized by those in Qunadar.

I never argued against what Weekes said, neither in the first nor the second video.

As for the Qun, I think I already gave my opinion on it in another thread specifically dedicated to that topic. It makes a decent attempt at order and balance, but Koslun never thought his words could be taken so far outside what was intended. And I think the Qunari have put their own meanings into the Qun over time.

It shows that the Qun is flawed, as multiple interpretations can exist, even if only over the course of ages. But it is also prone to fanaticism. Case in point, Viddasala. She broke with the teachings of those in Qunadar that the saarebas must be cut off from magic as much as possible and watched carefully. She tried to attack the South and start a war without authorization. Why would someone loyal to the Qun do this? Because she had her own interpretation, and she believed that success would justify her in the eyes of the Triumvirate. Instead, not only did she break core tenets of the Qun, but she also failed, and nearly provoked an Exalted March against Par Vollen. That's why she balled up the Triumvirate's letter to Josephine. It's why she threw her life away attacking Solas, knowing full well what would happen, and that the alternative was being declared Tal-Vashoth and then being executed.

Also, the Qunari leadership have a blindspot for their own trusted agents. They just assume everyone in those roles will follow the will of the Triumvirate. Why wouldn't they? Their loyalty had been proven, hence their advancement to that position, and the penalty for defying the Qun is severe. But this leaves them open to corruption, and it fails to fulfill Koslun's intent for self-mastery. Fanaticism encourages reckless actions, and no one who is forced into a role and forced to think a certain way by others can truly master himself. The ideology must be accepted willingly in order to be effective.

[SweetTeaholic]

Careful, we're all using words. So we're all just saying the same thing. 

 

It's ok, I talked too soon anyways.

[Kurogane335]

 

I have a proposal for anyone who doesn't see the Qun as "bad". 

 

I'll set up the Qun at my house. I'll be the Triumvirate. All of you will let me be your leader. I'll tell you what to do every day. When to do so. How to do it. You'll pay me to work for me and in return I'll take away all the burdens of making your own decisions. I'll fill your head with a lot of philosophy so you can feel really good about me bossing you around. If you don't do what I tell you to do I can kill you. Or I can water-board you until you see things my way. Because the Qun. 

 

I mean, how is that worse than, say, living somewhere that you have a voice in setting things up? Where you can decide what religion you want to practice. What job you want to have. Who you want to have a family with. 

 

It's all the same right? It's all just rules and regulations and a society. And licenses. 

 

 

You can't, because you're Qun is flawed. If there is a Triumvirate to begin with, it is precisely to avoid that. Great decisions are collectively made. Ashkaari are there to discuss the Qun and its implications at length (in theory that is, how it is done in practice...), others Ben-Hassrath are there to explain it to the rest of society in their respective duties (Tamassaran, Rasaan, etc.). Workers under the Arigena are there to heal, help, build, create and farm, and their lives are usually not under any other orders than the ones of their own hiearchy (quite like the Antaam).

 

There is also no money in the Qun, nor "individual" property as we know it. SO we wouldn't live in "tour" house. We would live in a house were you also happens to be but have absolutely no right on. Which means that if the representative Arigena said that the house had to be re-purposed or refurnished, you won't have your say over it. If you want to maintain greater wealth, you'll also have to work harder with the works and actions of the others not benefiting you, because there purpose is to help society as a whole, meaning that no matter how high in the hierarchy, you would be only a cog in the machine, and should you try to turn it to your own advantage, the rest of us could depose you and, depending if you unwillingly or willingly put the whole society at risk, you would either be explained why what you did was wrong, with the hope that you'll correct your path by yourself, be reeducated or get to taste qamek.

 

Still, your post demonstrate that you don't understand what the Qun is, not how its works, even in its flawed form.

[Almostfaceman]

You can't, because you're Qun is flawed. If there is a Triumvirate to begin with, it is precisely to avoid that. Great decisions are collectively made. Ashkaari are there to discuss the Qun and its implications at length (in theory that is, how it is done in practice...), others Ben-Hassrath are there to explain it to the rest of society in their respective duties (Tamassaran, Rasaan, etc.). Workers under the Arigena are there to heal, help, build, create and farm, and their lives are usually not under any other orders than the ones of their own hiearchy (quite like the Antaam).

 

There is also no money in the Qun, nor "individual" property as we know it. SO we wouldn't live in "tour" house. We would live in a house were you also happens to be but have absolutely no right on. Which means that if the representative Arigena said that the house had to be re-purposed or refurnished, you won't have your say over it. If you want to maintain greater wealth, you'll also have to work harder with the works and actions of the others not benefiting you, because there purpose is to help society as a whole, meaning that no matter how high in the hierarchy, you would be only a cog in the machine, and should you try to turn it to your own advantage, the rest of us could depose you and, depending if you unwillingly or willingly put the whole society at risk, you would either be explained why what you did was wrong, with the hope that you'll correct your path by yourself, be reeducated or get to taste qamek.

 

Still, your post demonstrate that you don't understand what the Qun is, not how its works, even in its flawed form.

 

I'm the Triumverate, I decide what the Qun is. Time for a little qamek. 

 

Why would you want to depose me? You obviously want to be told what to think, what your role is in society, your needs taken care of for you. I'll do all of that. Well, if you survive the qamek. 

[Kurogane335]

I'm the Triumverate, I decide what the Qun is. Time for a little qamek. 

 

Why would you want to depose me? You obviously want to be told what to think, what your role is in society, your needs taken care of for you. I'll do all of that. Well, if you survive the qamek. 

You are NOT the Triumvirate, because you alone being it means that all roles are melted into one person. It is not to be. It is not a Demand of the Qun. You also haven't demonstrated that you are the most fit to be in one of the ruling post (me neither, for that matters, obviously).

 

It also speaks volume that you need to twist the Qun beyond recognition and avoid answering the most vital points of my counter-argument to try to make the Qun a bad thing. It also means that you are dangerous for the whole of society, with self-serving and tyrannical behaviour. All characteristics which means you are unfit to rule under the Qun (in Tevinter or anywhere else in Thedas, depending of the social strata where you would be born, you could rule, however. It would be terrible, of course, but you could).

 

You're also wrong to think that the Qunari want to decide of nothing and only wait for orders in their life. They aren't robots, nor mindless drones. They are people. But they follow their leaders because contrary to any other society in Thedas, said rulers are chosen purely for their competences and have to earn their position. Contrary to, say, Orlais or Ferelden, were being a noble automatically qualify you to some important social position, even if only at a local level, without ensuring that you are competent, the leader(s, probably) of a Qunari town are chosen because they are deemed able to fill that role and are demoted if they aren't.

 

What is there in the life of commoners elsewhere in Thedas, if not a life of servitude ? Is Orzammar better, with calcified social strata which can't be escaped except by becoming Pariah (the Highs are ever so rare that they aren't an option for 99,9% of the population). What about Tevinter where if you aren't a mage you're a nobody, and if you're not a powerful mage with the right ancestors, you're almost nothing ? It is fairer ? What hopes is there for those who aren't part of the elite by birth to better their lives ? The answer is there isn't, because the system is staked against them. So far, only in the Qun someone who is born to be a simple warrior can achieve the rank of Arishok (at least in theory).

[Almostfaceman]

You are NOT the Triumvirate, because you alone being it means that all roles are melted into one person. It is not to be. It is not a Demand of the Qun.

 

It also speaks volume that you need to twist the Qun beyond recognition and avoid answering the most vital points of my counter-argument to try to make the Qun a bad thing.

 

What? You don't take my word for it? I thought you wanted to be told what to think. You don't sound very compatible with the Qun. Hmmm, time to declare you Tal-Vashoth. 

[Almostfaceman]

You are NOT the Triumvirate, because you alone being it means that all roles are melted into one person. It is not to be. It is not a Demand of the Qun.

 

It also speaks volume that you need to twist the Qun beyond recognition and avoid answering the most vital points of my counter-argument to try to make the Qun a bad thing. It also means that you are dangerous for the whole of society, with self-serving and tyrannical behaviour. All characteristics which means you are unfit to rule under the Qun (in Tevinter or anywhere else in Thedas, depending of the social strata where you would be born, you could rule, however. It would be terrible, of course, but you could).

 

Prepare yourself kabethari.

 

Refusal to cooperate is seen as illness to be cured, and those who resist are taken to the viddathlok, temples dedicated to healing. What happens later is not quite clear, but it is known that the Qunari use a substance called qamek to turn them into mindless laborers[32] forced into indentured servitude or sent to mines or construction camps. Some would return, changed in profound ways, some would perish of exhaustion or starvation and some would be slain.

[Kurogane335]

Prepare yourself kabethari.

 

Refusal to cooperate is seen as illness to be cured, and those who resist are taken to the viddathlok, temples dedicated to healing. What happens later is not quite clear, but it is known that the Qunari use a substance called qamek to turn them into mindless laborers[32] forced into indentured servitude or sent to mines or construction camps. Some would return, changed in profound ways, some would perish of exhaustion or starvation and some would be slain.

 

The Tal-Vashoth is the one which renege against the Qun. You twisting it to an irecognizable form, which serves only you and not the whole makes you Tal-Vashoth. I stand by what the Qun : the betterment of all. You keep twisting it to make it fiot with your deluded vision, because you ahve decided, rather stupidly, that it is a bad thing, when nothing in the whole setting prove it, and in fact I can even say that everything in the DA universe demonstrate that out of all the other societies in Thedas, the Qun is the more democratic, meritocratic and open.

 

I also not that you still avoid to even quote the more important parts of my answers. probably because you have basically no articulate arguments to oppose me. So, go on. Keep proving me right.

[Almostfaceman]

The Tal-Vashoth is the one which renege against the Qun. You twisting it to an irecognizable form, which serves only you and not the whole makes you Tal-Vashoth. I stand by what the Qun : the betterment of all. You keep twisting it to make it fiot with your deluded vision, because you ahve decided, rather stupidly, that it is a bad thing, when nothing in the whole setting prove it, and in fact I can even say that everything in the DA universe demonstrate that out of all the other societies in Thedas, the Qun is the more democratic, meritocratic and open.

 

I also not that you still avoid to even quote the more important parts of my answers. probably because you have basically no articulate arguments to oppose me. So, go on. Keep proving me right.

 

You are arguing with me, which is very un-Qunari. You've made your own decision about your role in life, which is in opposition to me. Be careful, this is dangerously close to independent thinking. We can't have any of that. The Qun decides your role and you don't get an audience with the Triumvirate to discuss it. 

 

The Qunari view other nations as inferiors, kabethari (literally, "those who need to be taught") who are to be conquered and "enlightened", i.e. converted to the Qun. In the newly subdued areas they dismantle families: children are torn away from their parents and raised as Qunari,[6] while adults are sent to "learning" (labor) camps for re-education performed by a branch of priesthood called the Ben-Hassrath.

 

By the way, whether I quote you or not, your words are safe and sound for all to see. You shouldn't concern yourself with that. It's not your role. 

[Dai Grepher]

You are arguing with me, which is very un-Qunari. You've made your own decision about your role in life, which is in opposition to me. Be careful, this is dangerously close to independent thinking. We can't have any of that. The Qun decides your role and you don't get an audience with the Triumvirate to discuss it.

"Understood ma'am."

[The Baconer]

Mmmm who's down for some compulsory breeding. For the non-fertile therapy, I wonder, can Viddath-Bas still be used for "cork-popping"? 

[robertthebard]

Licenses exist. They are a part of the many regulations that exist. The fact that you have to go to school for X years to become a particular kind of professional, or that you have to adhere to certain standards to practice, or that you have to adhere to certain regulations to run a particular kind of business - the very essence of modern society (and even ancient society) is to have rules about how you can earn a living and what you can do with property.

Note that in my post I never talked about what you can think - and pratically even the Qun can't outlaw that one (they don't have the means to police thoughts).

I'm not sure about you, but I don't want a surgeon operating on me or mine that has no clue about anatomy. How is a guy that spent his formative years pouring concrete going to understand what needs to be done in surgery? There is nothing wrong, in most places, with applying common sense to your occupation. Does a local carpenter maintain your car? Is the local mechanic the one building your houses? Being a surgeon requires knowledge, as does building a house, or maintaining a car. Expecting that someone that's doing any of these things for a living, after making a conscious choice to do so, knows what they're doing isn't wrong.

Nobody bred me to be a bard, or a carpenter, or a machinist. I had interests, and I chose to pursue them. This wouldn't happen under the Qun. I would have one purpose, the one I was specifically bred for, and trained for since birth. It doesn't matter if they can monitor what I think or not, because they start programming me when I'm very young, and continue that training until I die, or become Tal Vashoth, which is the same thing, to them. Reeducation isn't a stroll down memory lane, as IB points out. It is the Qun, exerting it's will on someone that tried to be an individual. This is why there are no names, under the Qun, only titles. IB states exactly this in a dialog about being "The Iron Bull", when he states that they were initially numbers.