1580 réponses à ce sujet

[midnight tea]

The Tal-Vashoth is the one which renege against the Qun. You twisting it to an irecognizable form, which serves only you and not the whole makes you Tal-Vashoth. I stand by what the Qun : the betterment of all. You keep twisting it to make it fiot with your deluded vision, because you ahve decided, rather stupidly, that it is a bad thing, when nothing in the whole setting prove it, and in fact I can even say that everything in the DA universe demonstrate that out of all the other societies in Thedas, the Qun is the more democratic, meritocratic and open.

 

I... wut?

 

You know, it was hard enough to discuss anything with one person who seems to be unable to put a dying pet theory to rest... but two?

 

No hon, the DA setting keeps revealing that the Qunari are not a society we want to sentence Thedas to, no matter how bad the other systems are. There is literally no less democratic political system we know of than the one of the Qun, when people can't even choose what they're doing with their life.

[In Exile]

I... wut?

 

You know, it was hard enough to discuss anything with one person who seems to be unable to put a dying pet theory to rest... but two?

 

No hon, the DA setting keeps revealing that the Qunari are not a society we want to sentence Thedas to, no matter how bad the other systems are. There is literally no less democratic political system we know of than the one of the Qun, when people can't even choose what they're doing with their life.

 

I... what? Orlais is an absolute hereditary monarchy. 

[midnight tea]

I... what? Orlais is an absolute hereditary monarchy. 

 

Oh it's true, but they're not claiming that women can't be fighters and are not re-educating people who are put in one assigned role, among other things. 

[In Exile]

Oh it's true, but they're not claiming that women can't be fighters and are not re-educating people who are put in one assigned role, among other things. 

 

Sure, the Qun is awful for a lot of reasons, I just didn't follow the "no less democratic political system" point. They seem to be more democratic to me than an absolute monarchy, for example. 

[Dai Grepher]

The Qun is an oligarchy. Orlais is an aristocracy. Orlais is more democratic, because at least there you can choose to do whatever you can to advance your own position and wealth to become more influential. In the Qun you are either picked for a higher or lesser role based on tests you are given by the tamassrans.

[midnight tea]

Sure, the Qun is awful for a lot of reasons, I just didn't follow the "no less democratic political system" point. They seem to be more democratic to me than an absolute monarchy, for example. 

 

I think we may be thinking about somewhat different things. I don't mean "democratic" in a political sense, but in a sense how much freedom an individual actually has under a given system. I mean,  Democratic People's Republic of Korea is technically 'democratic' - heck, it's even in its name - but I don't think we'd disagree much about how undemocratic it is. It's sort of... beside the point.

 

Besides, the game is actually self-aware on that front, so companions do have a pretty in-depth discussion about this particular issue, between Solas and Bull:

 

Spoiler

Solas: Iron Bull. I understand that among your people, you are... what is the term?

Iron Bull: Ben-Hassrath. Secret police. Spies, basically.

Solas: You spied upon your own people.

Iron Bull: Is that so different from Orlais or Ferelden? They have all kinds of people policing them.

Solas: What they say and do, yes. Not what they think.

Iron Bull: What you think is what you say and do.

Solas: No. Even the lowliest peasant may find freedom in the safety of her thoughts. You take even that.

 

───────

Solas: Surely even you see, Iron Bull, that freedom is preferable to mindless obedience to the Qun.

Iron Bull: How so? Last I checked, our mages weren't burning down Par Vollen.

Solas: You think Orlais and Ferelden would be better off under Qunari rule?

Iron Bull: Not really my call. I think most people everywhere have a system that works for 'em.

Iron Bull: When that breaks, you fix it. Like we're doing now.

Solas: Do not equivocate. Would we or would we not be better under the Qun?

Iron Bull: It's not that simple, Solas.

Solas: It absolutely is.

 

───────

Iron Bull: Alright, Solas, been thinking. You wanna know how this place would be if the Qunari took charge?

Iron Bull: Orlais, Ferelden, all of it would be healthier under the Qun.

Iron Bull: But the war to make that happen? That'd be ugly. A lot of good people would die.

Iron Bull: So I'm not hoping it happens. There! You happy?

Solas: Happy? No. Quite the opposite.

Iron Bull: Oh, come on. I said I didn't want us to invade you!

Solas: No. You said this world would be brighter if all thinking individuals were stripped of individuality.

Solas: You only lack the will to get more blood on your hands.

 

───────

Iron Bull: Tell me something, Solas. Do you think the servants here are happier then the people living under the Qun in Par Vollen?

Solas: It doesn't matter if they are happy, it matters that they may choose!

Iron Bull: Choose? Choose what? Whether to do their work or get tossed onto the street to starve?

Solas: Yes! If a Ferelden servant decides that his life goal is to... become a poet, he can follow that dream!

Solas: It may be difficult, and he might fail. But the whole of society is not aligned to oppose him!

Iron Bull: Sure, and good for him. How many servants actually go do that, though?

Solas: Almost none! What does that matter?

Solas: Your Qun would crush the brilliant few for the mediocre many!

Iron Bull: And then people feel like crap for failing.

Iron Bull: When the truth is, the deck was stacked against them anyway.

 

───────

Solas: If your Qun is so wonderful, so fair and perfect, how does it create so many Tal-Vashoth?

[If the Inquisitor is Qunari:]

Solas: There are enough of them to marry and have children, like the man/woman we travel with!

Iron Bull: And for every one who turns out alright, like him/her, and his/her parents, dozens go savage.

[Otherwise:]

Iron Bull: Most Tal-Vashoth are nothing more than savages. Killing's all they know.

Iron Bull: The Ben-Hassrath are trying to lose fewer people to that sickness.

Solas: It isn't a sickness. You are losing them because they see a chance for freedom!

Solas: And most of them are "savage", as you say, because your culture taught them nothing else.

Solas: They know nothing but the Qun. So even as they fight against it, they are guided by its principles.

Iron Bull: Watch it, elf. You haven't seen the Tal-Vashoth like I have.

Iron Bull: Try watching a Tal-Vashoth kill a Tamassran and her kids. Then we'll talk.

 

───────

Solas: You fought the Tal-Vashoth for a long time, Iron Bull, did you not?

Iron Bull: Every day.

Iron Bull: I'd kill some of them, they'd kill some of my guys, and then I'd kill them some more.

Solas: No man can kill so many people without breaking inside. To survive... those you fight must become monsters.

Iron Bull: The ones that kill innocent people, yeah. The rest... I don't know.

Solas: The mind does marvelous things to protect itself.

 

And sure, you could argue that Solas perspective isn't objective, and it would be fair, but I'd like to point out that Bull - who knows the system from inside out - oft has been put on defensive here, or fully admits that system is what it is; plus we know full well that IB only really hangs to it, because he's terrified of becoming (what he thinks is) Tal Vashoth.

[Kurogane335]

The Iron Bull is almost a Tal-Vashoth from the get go but refuse to recognize it until much later (and even then he need the Inquisitor to finally go all the way toward it). But Solas is dead wrong when he says that in societies which don't follow the Qun, society isn't staked against a farmer trying to becomes a poet, quite the contrary. In the medieval societies of Thedas, birth determine your place in the social order, and any attempt to escape it is a battle against a whole system trying to prevent it, while never offering you any recognition for your previous station in life. Under the Qun, people are breed, but even then they are observed in their youth to determine in what "career" (military, priesthood, worker) they are best suited. In said career, should they demonstrate the qualities required to reach the upper echelons, they will reach them.

 

And since outside of very peculiar situations (Seheron and it's never ending war, the Arishok stranded in Kirkwall) Tal-Vashoth appear to be extremely few in number we can suppose it works, and I don't think that even Solas "best" example of the baker "rebelling" by using extra-sugar prove that it is because of the "thought police", quite the contrary. For me, this example demonstrate that Solas neither understand the Qun nor want it.

[Lezio]

The qun is pretty much a fantasy version of the Borg

 I was going to say that they are not that bad..... then i thought about the qamek

 

Qunari are really fascinating, mainly because i feel like they're, literraly, a "they". It's weird, it's like the Qun works because the qunari, as a group, make it work for them and for those that surround them, but seperate one of them from the whole and that one will become an individual (like Sten, or The Iron Bull)

 

EDIT: Now that i'm thinking about it they're actually much like udnerground dwarves in that regard. Look at the Casteless, they live a shitty life in Orzammar and the only reason they don't go to the surface it's because "the surface is bad", and yet i don't remember ever metting a dwarf of the surfice who ever even wished to go abck to Orzammar. Again, the individual vs the group

[The Baconer]

And since outside of very peculiar situations (Seheron and it's never ending war, the Arishok stranded in Kirkwall) Tal-Vashoth appear to be extremely few in number we can suppose it works, [...]

 

Why would me make such a supposition when Tal-Vashoth are noted to be a persistent occurrence in every major instance of Qunari exposure to foreign cultures (Seheron, Rivain, and even the short time spent in Kirkwall)? If their goal is to indeed spread the Qun across the whole of Thedas via conquest, these could hardly be considered "very peculiar" situations... rather, it should be the opposite. 

[midnight tea]

The Iron Bull is almost a Tal-Vashoth from the get go but refuse to recognize it until much later (and even then he need the Inquisitor to finally go all the way toward it). 

 

... Whoa, No True Scottsman much?

 

So what you want to tell me is that Iron Bull doesn't know how Qun really works or is or has a skewed perception of it, because he's never been a 'real Qunari' to begin with? So much for equality, even among the Qunari - apparently even those born under the Qun and living under it all their lives have trouble 'getting' the qun - and if they don't, to hell with them! They're Tal Vashoth!

 

I mean.. you must be aware that saying things like that only hurt your case?? 

 

 

But Solas is dead wrong when he says that in societies which don't follow the Qun, society isn't staked against a farmer trying to becomes a poet, quite the contrary. In the medieval societies of Thedas, birth determine your place in the social order, and any attempt to escape it is a battle against a whole system trying to prevent it, while never offering you any recognition for your previous station in life. 

 

Here's the thing - it may be difficult and there will be societal pressures preventing people from picking a chosen path, but under the Qun even thinking about a different profession is close to impossible. That is Solas' point. You may think it's hard in Orlais to become something else society deems you to be, based on birth or else? Then think how hard it is under the Qun...

 

Consider: Cassandra under the Qun wouldn't be able to become a Seeker - not at least without denying her identity as a woman. Vivienne and Morrigan (who, btw, under the Qun would be even denied personhood) would be unable to hang out with the Empress, who - btw - opened University of Orlais for elves. People can be merchants or poets or scholars or else; the are still a lot of things that are obtainable - in fact and there are so many of them choosing their own path that Sten is utterly baffled by them even in Blight-ridden and relatively poor Ferelden that just got itself from under the shoe of Orlais. Like, you can actually tell that he never saw people choosing their own path, and thinks it's some kind of absurd.

[QueenCrow]

 I was going to say that they are not that bad..... then i thought about the qamek

 

Qunari are really fascinating, mainly because i feel like they're, literraly, a "they". It's weird, it's like the Qun works because the qunari, as a group, make it work for them and for those that surround them, but seperate one of them from the whole and that one will become an individual (like Sten, or The Iron Bull)

 

EDIT: Now that i'm thinking about it they're actually much like udnerground dwarves in that regard. Look at the Casteless, they live a shitty life in Orzammar and the only reason they don't go to the surface it's because "the surface is bad", and yet i don't remember ever metting a dwarf of the surfice who ever even wished to go abck to Orzammar. Again, the individual vs the group

 

I like the way you think - it doesn't seem as if you're thinking in absolutes.  And reading your post made me realize that I consider Qunari "they" also.

 

You're right about individualizing Qunari who are separated from other Qunari, I think, except that I have a hard time forgetting "Ketojan" from DA2.  Someday, I hope to have a discussion about Ketojan's secret thing given to Hawke at the end of the quest "Shepherding Wolves", but prefer to have that discussion with someone who doesn't think in Qun-hating absolutes.  If you're ever game, please let me know.

 

Also, it nags at me that Tallis chose the Qun and seemed happy with it when she apparently moved freely enough to unchoose and individualize if she wanted.  Fenris' banter in group suggested that the Qun is at least better than slavery in Tevinter.  He had a personal bias in that regard.  I'd love to hear thoughts on Tallis too.

[Dai Grepher]

plus we know full well that IB only really hangs to it, because he's terrified of becoming (what he thinks is) Tal Vashoth.

Exactly. Which is why he chooses to follow Viddasala, even if she is not authorized and is defying the Triumvirate.

[midnight tea]

Exactly. Which is why he chooses to follow Viddasala, even if she is not authorized and is defying the Triumvirate.

 

if she wasn't authorized by Triumvirate she would be effectively a Tal-Vashoth. Why would Qun-converted Iron Bull follow her? 

 

Also - I know you don't accept it, but it's worth repeating that Weekes very explicitly stated that Iron Bull wouldn't follow a rogue group.

[In Exile]

Exactly. Which is why he chooses to follow Viddasala, even if she is not authorized and is defying the Triumvirate.

 

That makes absolutely no sense. His greatest fear is to abandon the Qun and become a savage, so... he directly abandons the Qun, to engage in savagery? Pure applesauce. 

[In Exile]

 

I think we may be thinking about somewhat different things. I don't mean "democratic" in a political sense, but in a sense how much freedom an individual actually has under a given system. I mean,  Democratic People's Republic of Korea is technically 'democratic' - heck, it's even in its name - but I don't think we'd disagree much about how undemocratic it is. It's sort of... beside the point.

 

Besides, the game is actually self-aware on that front, so companions do have a pretty in-depth discussion about this particular issue, between Solas and Bull:

 

Spoiler

Solas: Iron Bull. I understand that among your people, you are... what is the term?

Iron Bull: Ben-Hassrath. Secret police. Spies, basically.

Solas: You spied upon your own people.

Iron Bull: Is that so different from Orlais or Ferelden? They have all kinds of people policing them.

Solas: What they say and do, yes. Not what they think.

Iron Bull: What you think is what you say and do.

Solas: No. Even the lowliest peasant may find freedom in the safety of her thoughts. You take even that.

 

───────

Solas: Surely even you see, Iron Bull, that freedom is preferable to mindless obedience to the Qun.

Iron Bull: How so? Last I checked, our mages weren't burning down Par Vollen.

Solas: You think Orlais and Ferelden would be better off under Qunari rule?

Iron Bull: Not really my call. I think most people everywhere have a system that works for 'em.

Iron Bull: When that breaks, you fix it. Like we're doing now.

Solas: Do not equivocate. Would we or would we not be better under the Qun?

Iron Bull: It's not that simple, Solas.

Solas: It absolutely is.

 

───────

Iron Bull: Alright, Solas, been thinking. You wanna know how this place would be if the Qunari took charge?

Iron Bull: Orlais, Ferelden, all of it would be healthier under the Qun.

Iron Bull: But the war to make that happen? That'd be ugly. A lot of good people would die.

Iron Bull: So I'm not hoping it happens. There! You happy?

Solas: Happy? No. Quite the opposite.

Iron Bull: Oh, come on. I said I didn't want us to invade you!

Solas: No. You said this world would be brighter if all thinking individuals were stripped of individuality.

Solas: You only lack the will to get more blood on your hands.

 

───────

Iron Bull: Tell me something, Solas. Do you think the servants here are happier then the people living under the Qun in Par Vollen?

Solas: It doesn't matter if they are happy, it matters that they may choose!

Iron Bull: Choose? Choose what? Whether to do their work or get tossed onto the street to starve?

Solas: Yes! If a Ferelden servant decides that his life goal is to... become a poet, he can follow that dream!

Solas: It may be difficult, and he might fail. But the whole of society is not aligned to oppose him!

Iron Bull: Sure, and good for him. How many servants actually go do that, though?

Solas: Almost none! What does that matter?

Solas: Your Qun would crush the brilliant few for the mediocre many!

Iron Bull: And then people feel like crap for failing.

Iron Bull: When the truth is, the deck was stacked against them anyway.

 

───────

Solas: If your Qun is so wonderful, so fair and perfect, how does it create so many Tal-Vashoth?

[If the Inquisitor is Qunari:]

Solas: There are enough of them to marry and have children, like the man/woman we travel with!

Iron Bull: And for every one who turns out alright, like him/her, and his/her parents, dozens go savage.

[Otherwise:]

Iron Bull: Most Tal-Vashoth are nothing more than savages. Killing's all they know.

Iron Bull: The Ben-Hassrath are trying to lose fewer people to that sickness.

Solas: It isn't a sickness. You are losing them because they see a chance for freedom!

Solas: And most of them are "savage", as you say, because your culture taught them nothing else.

Solas: They know nothing but the Qun. So even as they fight against it, they are guided by its principles.

Iron Bull: Watch it, elf. You haven't seen the Tal-Vashoth like I have.

Iron Bull: Try watching a Tal-Vashoth kill a Tamassran and her kids. Then we'll talk.

 

───────

Solas: You fought the Tal-Vashoth for a long time, Iron Bull, did you not?

Iron Bull: Every day.

Iron Bull: I'd kill some of them, they'd kill some of my guys, and then I'd kill them some more.

Solas: No man can kill so many people without breaking inside. To survive... those you fight must become monsters.

Iron Bull: The ones that kill innocent people, yeah. The rest... I don't know.

Solas: The mind does marvelous things to protect itself.

 

And sure, you could argue that Solas perspective isn't objective, and it would be fair, but I'd like to point out that Bull - who knows the system from inside out - oft has been put on defensive here, or fully admits that system is what it is; plus we know full well that IB only really hangs to it, because he's terrified of becoming (what he thinks is) Tal Vashoth.

 

 

I'd quibble that North Korea, despite the label (like the old Eastern Bloc Communist countries and, say, the former Iraq under Saddam, all of whom had "elections" but all of which were just shams) isn't democratic. But that's totally off-topic. I take your point now, but I've never seen "democratic" used that way. To me. the word is "autonomy". Or at least that's the world in political philosophy I'm familiar with re: individual self-determination. The Qun is absolutely anti-autonomy - that's what makes it so objectionable. 

 

My point was simply that it seems to me that the Qun - from what little we hear of it re: its system of governance - does seem to be as democratic as anything else in this setting, which is to say very little. 

 

And also off-topic, but this pretty much captures everything Solas believes: Solas: Your Qun would crush the brilliant few for the mediocre many! That's why he'll kill everyone to realize his vision of the world. He's willing to crush the mediocre many. 

[midnight tea]

I'd quibble that North Korea, despite the label (like the old Eastern Bloc Communist countries and, say, the former Iraq under Saddam, all of whom had "elections" but all of which were just shams) isn't democratic. But that's totally off-topic. I take your point now, but I've never seen "democratic" used that way. To me. the word is "autonomy". Or at least that's the world in political philosophy I'm familiar with re: individual self-determination. The Qun is absolutely anti-autonomy - that's what makes it so objectionable. 

 

My point was simply that it seems to me that the Qun - from what little we hear of it re: its system of governance - does seem to be as democratic as anything else in this setting, which is to say very little. 

 

And also off-topic, but this pretty much captures everything Solas believes: Solas: Your Qun would crush the brilliant few for the mediocre many! That's why he'll kill everyone to realize his vision of the world. He's willing to crush the mediocre many. 

 

It's highly probable I simply used the word how we sometimes colloquially use where I live, rather than how it's used in most English-speaking word, but hey - I explained what I mean and we seem to largely agree.

 

As for your last point, Id say that we don't know yet the details to Solas plans, but for me it doesn't seem as simple - for me he seems to want to restore to the mediocre many what he thinks he took from them, which prevents them (or large percent of them) rise above that mediocrity. 

[Dai Grepher]

if she wasn't authorized by Triumvirate she would be effectively a Tal-Vashoth. Why would Qun-converted Iron Bull follow her?

Because as you wrote, he's terrified of becoming Tal-Vashoth. The conversation between him and Solas confirms that he prefers not to think. He just does as told. He felt like it wasn't his call to make that Viddasala was Tal-Vashoth. He preferred to die than take the risk of being declared Tal-Vashoth.

Also - I know you don't accept it, but it's worth repeating that Weekes very explicitly stated that Iron Bull wouldn't follow a rogue group.

Right, a rogue group. The group itself wasn't rogue. It was real Qunari being misused by an unauthorized Viddasala. And both Weekes and Epler confirmed that she was in violation of the Triumvirate's wishes.

That makes absolutely no sense. His greatest fear is to abandon the Qun and become a savage, so... he directly abandons the Qun, to engage in savagery? Pure applesauce.

No, he follows the Qun by obeying the "Viddasala" rather than think for himself and declare her unauthorized. The conversation he has with Solas in the main game confirms that the Qunari are not to think, only to do as told. So instead of risk being called a Tal-Vashoth right then and there, he preferred to die with his fellow Qunari.

[In Exile]

It's highly probable is imply used the word how we sometimes colloquially use where I live, rather than how it's used in most English-speaking word, but hey - I explained what I mean and we seem to largely agree.

 

As for your last point, Id say that we don't know yet the details to Solas plans, but for me it doesn't seem as simple - for me he seems to want to restore to the mediocre many what he thinks he took from them, which prevents them (or large percent of them) rise above that mediocrity. 

 

That's fair. I just wanted to explain where I was coming from, since we don't really have a conflict.

 

Re: Solas, all I meant to say was that it's interesting that he views the Qun as so repugnant, because it's a reflection of how he views the current world as so very repugnant, and his criticism of the IB as being unwilling to get his hands bloody is also interesting, because of how ultimately willing Solas is to dunk his hands in a vat of blood for his ideals. 

 

A large part of what Solas struggles with is to accept those mediocre people deserve to live. 

[Al Foley]

So I finished Tresspasser again, for the...fourth time?  Wow.  I have played Trespasser more times then the game itself.  But it is worth pointing out that Bull in the scene he betrays you says that the Vidisaala invited him there.  Meaning, they were in communication, meaning Iron Bull had a lot of time to discover if it was a rogue operation.  It wasn't a rogue operation. 

[midnight tea]

Because as you wrote, he's terrified of becoming Tal-Vashoth. The conversation between him and Solas confirms that he prefers not to think. He just does as told. He felt like it wasn't his call to make that Viddasala was Tal-Vashoth. He preferred to die than take the risk of being declared Tal-Vashoth.

 

... So because he's terrified to become Tal-Vashoth he'll follow a Tal-Vashoth... which will effectively make him a Tal-Vashoth 

[The Baconer]

Yes, Iron Bull who knows fully well that the leader of a group of True Qunari not-rogues is a Tal-Vashoth, will blindly follow the order of a Tal-Vashoth in order to not be branded a Tal-Vashoth by the True Qunari. Not the True Qunari who tried to start a war, but the other True Qunari. 

[MisterJB]

Are people defending the Qun?

[Heimdall]

Are people defending the Qun?

Just Kurogane335

[In Exile]

Yes, Iron Bull who knows fully well that the leader of a group of True Qunari not-rogues is a Tal-Vashoth, will blindly follow the order of a Tal-Vashoth in order to not be branded a Tal-Vashoth by the True Qunari. Not the True Qunari who tried to start a war, but the other True Qunari.

The argument is nonsense, but it does have some nuance. Dai Grepher clearly contemplates there is some separate authority in the Qun that has the authority to declare someone Tal-vasoth. Not just any Qunari can declare another Qunari Tal-vasoth.

For the sake of argument, let us call this group the Ben-Hassrath. Now, let's suppose this group had individual agents - spread throughout the population - whose job it was to identify dissenters.

For the sake of argument, let's suppose this group had several leaders. We'll call one of them the Viddassala.

Let's suppose - again for the sake of argument, fully accepting this is absurd - that somehow the Iron Bull was a member of the Ben-Hassrath.

The only way Dai Grepher's argument wouldn't make sense is if individual agents of the Ben-Hassrath were trained to spot potential dissension from the Qun even among their own ranks - like, again for the sake of argument and fully recognizing that this is absurd, the KGB or any secret police ever in the history of humanity.

All of this is to say that the only way he could be wrong is if somehow the IB was raised from birth to me a member of some secret police whose sole role was to identify and expunge dissenting from the Qun. But that's absurd - it would require the IB to be a member of the Ben-Hassrath!

[Illegitimus]

Sure, the Qun is awful for a lot of reasons, I just didn't follow the "no less democratic political system" point. They seem to be more democratic to me than an absolute monarchy, for example. 

 

They aren't.  They are precisely as democratic as Orlais.  Which is to say, not at all.  Of course the word that was probably intended was "egalitarian".  Which it isn't especially.  It's meritocratic.  Of course part of their definition of "merit" is ideological purity.