1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Big I]

It's stupid. The Viddasala broke so many rules of the Qun that she would be Tal-Vashoth. But then this is from the guy who retconned the Qun and thought the Trespasser DLC was a satisfying conclusion for the Inquisitor and so I guess I shouldn't expect anything else. Even so, I'll still choose the alliance. I save hundreds of lives rather than half a dozen(of people I don't even like), get the most powerful navy and spy network on my side, and get to have Hissrad put down while fulfilling his wish to be defeated by a worthy opponent. 

 

I agree 100%. Even if the Viddasala was sanctioned the alliance is still worthwhile, if for no other reason than thwarting the Venatori attack on Denerim. It's a shame about Bull, but if his death is the price of doing the right thing then so be it.

[vertigomez]

This is disappointing. I thought the Qun valued truthfulness and despised liars, cheaters and cowardice. Hence why it's possible for a foreigner such as Hawke to earn their respect and avoid a city's takeover. Because the Qunari have shown to recognise authority from people outside the Qun when these criteria are met.

To lie about the operation reduces them to a fanatical group to whom truth is relative according to their own convenience.

But... that's what they've always been?

[ModernAcademic]

But... that's what they've always been?

They are a religious society that considers the truth to be what the philosophical precepts of said religion tells them to be.

That's entirely different from one's own convenience.

An individual that bends the truth according to selfish convenience is dishonest. For him, the truth is what benefits him the most. His morality is dubious, since he's guided solely by his selfish interests.
An individual that weights whether something is true or not according to rigid religious precepts is a devout. He remains true to a moral code that doesn't change according to his selfish will and wants.

[vertigomez]

They are a religious society that considers the truth to be what the philosophical precepts of said religion tells them to be.

That's entirely different from one's own convenience.

Not one's own convenience. The Qun's convenience. They make "convenient" treaties. They make "convenient" excuses (the Arishok insistIng he didn't lose any Qunari because they're Tal-Vashoth, Par Vollen denouncing the Arishok). No truth is sacred if it conflicts with the real truth; no trust is sacred if it conflicts with a demand of the Qun.

[TK514]

It was a win all around for me.

 

I got the Chargers, who I didn't like, killed.

I got to use the Qunari resources while they were still useful.

Then I got to kill Bull, who I mainly tolerated.

Then I got to kill a bunch of Qunari, who I don't really like.

 

Win-Win-Win-Win.

 

And in the next game, I might even get the opportunity to laugh at the Qunari for being failures at basically everything they've attempted since they tried conquering Thedas.

 

Another Win.

[ModernAcademic]

Not one's own convenience. The Qun's convenience. They make "convenient" treaties. They make "convenient" excuses (the Arishok insistIng he didn't lose any Qunari because they're Tal-Vashoth, Par Vollen denouncing the Arishok). No truth is sacred if it conflicts with the real truth; no trust is sacred if it conflicts with a demand of the Qun.

They would still be acting under the Qun in the case of the Tal-Vashoth. They act outside the Qun, so they share the same blood with the other Qunari, but are not the same people. It's the same thing between the Sentinels from Mythal's Temple and the Dalish. Abelas calls those elves "shadows wearing vallaslin" and states they're not his people.

A demand of the Qun must still follow the Qun. When the Arishok refused to leave Kirkwall, it was because the Qun demanded he recover the Tome of Koslun.

As for why the Arishok was punished, I have no idea. Maybe it was due to some action that took place after Kirkwall. Maybe it was because he let the Tome of Koslun be stolen again and returned to Par Vollen empty-handed. If that was the case - which we have no idea to know for sure because Varric's tale is so vague-, then the Arishok ultimately failed to satisfy the demand of the Qun and was accordingly condemned.

That last sentence just shows how unfair the Qun is. After all, we all saw how the Arishok was committed to his mission.

[Steelcan]

This is disappointing. I thought the Qun valued truthfulness and despised liars, cheaters and cowardice. Hence why it's possible for a foreigner such as Hawke to earn their respect and avoid a city's takeover. Because the Qunari have shown to recognise authority from people outside the Qun when these criteria are met.

To lie about the operation reduces them to a fanatical group to whom truth is relative according to their own convenience.

not really

 

They value loyalty and obedience to the Qun above all things, and sometimes that requires lying and cheating.  If their actions are still in line with the teachings of the Qun they are still honorable, no matter if others would call such actions dishonorable.

[ModernAcademic]

not really

They value loyalty and obedience to the Qun above all things, and sometimes that requires lying and cheating. If their actions are still in line with the teachings of the Qun they are still honorable, no matter if others would call such actions dishonorable.

Provided the lying and cheating follows a strict set of rules guided by the Qun. The Qunari are not all about results. The path you take to achieve such results matters.

If a Ben-Hassrath meets a Demand of the Qun, but does so by disrespecting the Qun's philosophy, then to the eyes of his people he has failed.

This is why the Qunari have such a highly organized society and dictate how people must perform even the most meaningless everyday tasks. The way of life in the Qun must reflect its philosophy. Otherwise, you're declared Tal Vashoth.

[vertigomez]

They would still be acting under the Qun in the case of the Tal-Vashoth. They act outside the Qun, so they share the same blood with the other Qunari, but are not the same people. It's the same thing between the Sentinels from Mythal's Temple and the Dalish. Abelas calls those elves "shadows wearing vallaslin" and states they're not his people.

Yes, but what I was saying is that the Qunari have always been about dem weasel words. And lying by omission. Anything to fulfill its purpose. So the Arishok never lost any Qunari to the Tal-Vashoth because if you defect you were never a Qunari anyway. If it satisfies a demand of the Qun to launch an invasion, that's what they do. If it satisfies a demand of the Qun to claim they're not responsible for the invasion so that they can try again, more successfully, later? That's what they do.

A demand of the Qun must still follow the Qun. When the Arishok refused to leave Kirkwall, it was because the Qun demanded he recover the Tome of Koslun.

As for why the Arishok was punished, I have no idea. Maybe it was due to some action that took place after Kirkwall. Maybe it was because he let the Tome of Koslun be stolen again and returned to Par Vollen empty-handed. If that was the case - which we have no idea to know for sure because Varric's tale is so vague-, then the Arishok ultimately failed to satisfy the demand of the Qun and was accordingly condemned.

Well, I don't know about the scenario where he lives. He always dies in my playthroughs, in which case his actions are disavowed ostensibly because he went AWOL. But if he had successfully taken Kirkwall... you can bet the Triumvirate would've decided that the Qun bade the Arishok to act. Since he lost, they wisely distanced themselves from his actions.

That last sentence just shows how unfair the Qun is. After all, we all saw how the Arishok was committed to his mission.

I don't doubt that.

[thats1evildude]

I agree 100%. Even if the Viddasala was sanctioned the alliance is still worthwhile, if for no other reason than thwarting the Venatori attack on Denerim. It's a shame about Bull, but if his death is the price of doing the right thing then so be it.

His death does make it harder for other qunari living in the south.

Also, the Bull's Chargers actually do quite a lot of good in the two year period between Corypheus' death and Trespasser. They protect people from demons and Red Templars, and they manage to prevent another small-scale war in Orlais.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

As for why the Arishok was punished, I have no idea. Maybe it was due to some action that took place after Kirkwall. Maybe it was because he let the Tome of Koslun be stolen again and returned to Par Vollen empty-handed. If that was the case - which we have no idea to know for sure because Varric's tale is so vague-, then the Arishok ultimately failed to satisfy the demand of the Qun and was accordingly condemned.

If I recall correctly, earlier in DA2 the Arishok talks about how it is not his role to educate people of the Qun or fix Kirkwall, but then during his attack he tries to do exactly that. So he went against what his role was, thus went against the Qun. 

[KaiserShep]

You have to like how every single Qunari in his command just went along with it though. That's the sort of blind crazytown effect the Qun has on the suckers that ascribe to it.

[vertigomez]

You have to like how every single Qunari in his command just went along with it though. That's the sort of blind crazytown effect the Qun has on the suckers that ascribe to it.

Guess that's what happens when your sole purpose in life is to stick swords in people and not question orders.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

You have to like how every single Qunari in his command just went along with it though. That's the sort of blind crazytown effect the Qun has on the suckers that ascribe to it.

Yes, they follow their superior even when they know they are going against the Qun...just like a certain Ben-Hassrath whom follows his superior even when she is going against the Qun.

[Dai Grepher]

I think Hissrad should have been different though. Following a commanding officer in a military branch is one thing, but Hissrad was a spy, and Viddasala was not his commanding officer. She was from a different arm of the Ben-Hassrath, and the Triumvirate's letter should have been enough for him to ignore her order. He also should have known there would have been no consequence for disobeying her.

[thesuperdarkone2]

So apparently being confirmed as an official qunari somehow =/= authorized?

 

 

So I guess she's just an official qunari that somehow got members of the military and access to bombs?

 

The denial is strong with this one. Weekes staright up confirmed that she's an official member of the qunari yet you still act like she's a rogue agent. LOL not even developer confirmation can overcome your delusion

[Dai Grepher]

So apparently being confirmed as an official qunari somehow =/= authorized?

 

So I guess she's just an official qunari that somehow got members of the military and access to bombs?

 

The denial is strong with this one. Weekes staright up confirmed that she's an official member of the qunari yet you still act like she's a rogue agent. LOL not even developer confirmation can overcome your delusion

 

Correct. Just as Leliana is officially a member of the Inquisition but was not authorized to hide things from the Exalted Council.

 

She always had access to antaam soldiers for the cause of protecting Ben-Hassrath agents while investigating the elvhen ruins.

 

She did not have access to gaatlok, as Hissrad notes his disbelief that the Arigena allowed that much out of Par Vollen. We later find out that Viddasala was making her own at the darvaarad using the dragon's venom. That's how she was able to get her hands on so much gaatlok. The Arigena would not have allowed Viddasala to have that much, and Viddasala could not come up with a legitimate reason to demand the amount she needed to attack various locations in the south. More proof she was not authorized and that the Triumvirate was unaware of her true plans.

 

You should go back and read my post. I never denied that Viddasala was an official agent within the Qun. My claim was that she was acting on her own without authorization from the Triumvirate (similar to the Arishok in DA2). Weekes said nothing to the contrary. You simply misunderstood him. Better luck next time.

[Gervaise]

What Dai Grepher is saying is somewhat borne out by the storyline but I still think that what PW says is correct and the leadership in Par Vollen had authorised her mission.

 

Essentially the moment the big hole appeared in the sky, the Qun leadership decided they needed to do something about the out of control mages in the south.   This makes sense since this large scale reality changing magic affects everyone.    They took a two pronged approach, authorising the Viddasala to carry out her own investigations and ordering Hissrad to ingratiate himself with the Inquisition.   

 

What is less clear is at what point the Viddasala's actions went off brief.    We know from that Templar convert in the Deep Roads that her actions with the Saarebas were beyond what she should have been doing, which I believe Bull confirms, but essentially what she was trying to do was find a way of strengthening the Veil and reducing the flow of magic, which had she succeeded would have been something the leadership would have welcomed, so who is to say that she hadn't contacted Par Vollen, got their authorisation but with the proviso, if it goes wrong then we will disavow all knowledge.  

 

The same would hold true of the planned invasion.   Obviously there would be no point her going ahead with the plan without the leadership being in the know because the whole point was to take advantage of the chaos following the assassination of the leaders across the south.   So their agents in the cities would need to be primed ready to act when the moment occurred, as would their forces (using the eluvians for fast travel from Par Vollen).    They wouldn't have needed huge forces in each city; the Arishok nearly succeeded in taking over Kirkwall with only a token army of qunari and the support of their elven converts.   All they needed was the signal to act; the large explosion in the seat of government.     However, when the plot was uncovered at the eleventh hour they naturally had to disavow their involvement both to safeguard their agents and the treaty that is keeping the south from aiding Tevinter against them.   It is noticeable in the epilogue that if you sided with the Qun, they contact the Divine and ask for her support (and that of her private army the Inquisition if you keep it going) against Tevinter, again insisting that the Viddasala was acting on her own.

 

The only truth that the Qun are loyal to is the Qun itself.    Members of the Qun, particularly those higher up, should be well aware that they are dispensable if they fail in the mission, since they have not fulfilled he demands of the Qun, one of the chief ones is not to fail.     Whilst the Arishok may have recovered the tome, his mission was to do so without compromising the peace treaty with the southern nations; had his takeover of Kirkwall been successful, then the leadership would probably have overlooked this aspect.   However, it was not successful, so even if he returned home with the tome, he was always going to be stripped of office and the leadership disavow his actions.   The same is true of the Viddasala; she attacked Solas likely knowing what he would do to her because she had failed and placed them in a compromising situation, so even had she returned home, that would have been an end of her role and likely her life.

 

As for Hissrad, he was always a conflicted character but being lower on the pecking order, as someone loyal to the Qun he was still required to follow the orders of a superior.   I could be wrong here but I believe the investigation of magic was a branch of the Ben-Hassrath, so she was the same division as him. In any case she was definitely an officer whilst he was a mere agent.   It is one of the weaknesses of the Qun that their members are meant to blindly follow orders.    Hissrad did that when you ordered him to sacrifice the Chargers, so why should he be any different when ordered by the Viddasala to kill you?   Whilst the Qun may have wanted to salvage the peace treaty, it would still serve their interests to get rid of the Inquisitor, so the secrets that were discovered in the Viddasala's base would never be known.

[Serza]

Understood, Capt'n. We will assess this new intelligence for further study. I believe other matters require your knack for understanding the obvious for now. Over'n'out.

[sniper_arrow]

The Viddasala's mission kind of reminded me of The Boss's mission in Metal Gear Solid 3.

[In Exile]

It's stupid. The Viddasala broke so many rules of the Qun that she would be Tal-Vashoth. But then this is from the guy who retconned the Qun and thought the Trespasser DLC was a satisfying conclusion for the Inquisitor and so I guess I shouldn't expect anything else. Even so, I'll still choose the alliance. I save hundreds of lives rather than half a dozen(of people I don't even like), get the most powerful navy and spy network on my side, and get to have Hissrad put down while fulfilling his wish to be defeated by a worthy opponent. 

 

No, he didn't. People's incredibly lack of capacity to appreciate the troll-logic and hypocrisy of the Qun is not a failure of PWs, but the audience. The Viddasala is another perfect illustration of the fundamental post-hoc hypocrisy essential to the Qun, which we also see with the Arishok basically rage-quitting Kirkwall and ascribing it all to a demand of the Qun, before the rest of the Qunari (on his failure) ascribe it back to his own failure. 

 

There's no "alliance". You work together with the Qunari, but as Sten literally tells Alistair, the Qunari have no concept of treaties or alliances in the way the rest of Thedas operates. It's not "your side". It's their "side". 

[In Exile]

This is disappointing. I thought the Qun valued truthfulness and despised liars, cheaters and cowardice. Hence why it's possible for a foreigner such as Hawke to earn their respect and avoid a city's takeover. Because the Qunari have shown to recognise authority from people outside the Qun when these criteria are met.

To lie about the operation reduces them to a fanatical group to whom truth is relative according to their own convenience.

 

The Qunari absolutely lie (cf. the Blackpowder quests in DA2), and value reality ignoring lies as part of the most fundamental tenets of their belief. Again. listen to the Arishok talk about how many Qunari he lost to the Tal-Vasoth in DA2. His answer - none - is rank insanity, and obviously factually incorrect. 

[Reznore57]

The Qunari absolutely lie (cf. the Blackpowder quests in DA2), and value reality ignoring lies as part of the most fundamental tenets of their belief. Again. listen to the Arishok talk about how many Qunari he lost to the Tal-Vasoth in DA2. His answer - none - is rank insanity, and obviously factually incorrect. 

 

Yeah but that's Qunari for you.Not sure I'd call it a "lie" , it's PR talk .I can easily imagine a logic behind this "If they left , they weren't following or believing in the Qun.So they weren't Qunari."

The truth is they still go after the Tal Vashoth , I would consider it troll level if when Tal Vashoth are getting violent , they would wash their hands and go "Not our responsability at all, we've never seen those people."

 

It's the same way with the peace treaties and the invasion.

I can't believe anyone signing those papers believed the Qunari were on board with long lasting peace.

All the Qunari we've met , from the foot soldier , to Arishock (one of the main leader) to secret spy tell people "Oh Yes we're going to invade eventually."

It's like the worst kept secret you could imagine.

[Hiemoth]

No, he didn't. People's incredibly lack of capacity to appreciate the troll-logic and hypocrisy of the Qun is not a failure of PWs, but the audience. The Viddasala is another perfect illustration of the fundamental post-hoc hypocrisy essential to the Qun, which we also see with the Arishok basically rage-quitting Kirkwall and ascribing it all to a demand of the Qun, before the rest of the Qunari (on his failure) ascribe it back to his own failure. 

 

There's no "alliance". You work together with the Qunari, but as Sten literally tells Alistair, the Qunari have no concept of treaties or alliances in the way the rest of Thedas operates. It's not "your side". It's their "side". 

 

Slight correction on the Arishok, he didn't actually scribe his actions in trying to take over Kirkwall to the Qun. He originally kept his cool, as it was, not to take over the city because it was not his task there, just as converting the people of Kirkwall was not his task there. His final push was in response to the constant provocations from the city, at which point he came to the conclusion that simply taking over the city would make his fundamental task there easier to accomplish.

 

That to me illustrates the aspect of the Qunari which I think some of the audience struggles with, in that while it is an extremely rigid culture devoted to its tasks, it is a reactive culture in its attempts to fulfill those tasks. Thus if it, for example, would have two tasks: Survive and take over Thedas, if an attempt to achieve the latter task failed, there would be no question about lying it in order to succeed at the former task.

[In Exile]

Yeah but that's Qunari for you.Not sure I'd call it a "lie" , it's PR talk .I can easily imagine a logic behind this "If they left , they weren't following or believing in the Qun.So they weren't Qunari."

The truth is they still go after the Tal Vashoth , I would consider it troll level if when Tal Vashoth are getting violent , they would wash their hands and go "Not our responsability at all, we've never seen those people."

 

It's the same way with the peace treaties and the invasion.

I can't believe anyone signing those papers believed the Qunari were on board with long lasting peace.

All the Qunari we've met , from the foot soldier , to Arishock (one of the main leader) to secret spy tell people "Oh Yes we're going to invade eventually."

It's like the worst kept secret you could imagine.

 

It's the No True Scotsman Fallacy (from wikipedia): 

 

No true Scotsman is an informal fallacy, an ad hoc attempt to retain an unreasoned assertion.[1] When faced with a counterexample to a universal claim ("no Scotsman would do such a thing"), rather than denying the counterexample or rejecting the original claim, this fallacy modifies the subject of the assertion to exclude the specific case or others like it by rhetoric, without reference to any specific objective rule ("no true Scotsman would do such a thing"; i.e., those who perform that action are not part of our group and thus criticism of that action is not criticism of the group).[2]

 

It's a bit more nuanced, of course, since technically the Airshok would respond by saying that it's a definitional feature of the Qunari that they wouldn't do X, but introducing your conclusion as a premise post-hoc is just an instance of the same species of reasoning error.

The Qun is just a definition game. It's really fascinating, but runs into a lot of logic issues (as any rule-based systems will by nature do).

 

Slight correction on the Arishok, he didn't actually scribe his actions in trying to take over Kirkwall to the Qun. He originally kept his cool, as it was, not to take over the city because it was not his task there, just as converting the people of Kirkwall was not his task there. His final push was in response to the constant provocations from the city, at which point he came to the conclusion that simply taking over the city would make his fundamental task there easier to accomplish.

 

That to me illustrates the aspect of the Qunari which I think some of the audience struggles with, in that while it is an extremely rigid culture devoted to its tasks, it is a reactive culture in its attempts to fulfill those tasks. Thus if it, for example, would have two tasks: Survive and take over Thedas, if an attempt to achieve the latter task failed, there would be no question about lying it in order to succeed at the former task.

 

He portrays it as a Demand of the Qun™. Recall his rant to Hawke in Act I, that we should be grateful that the Qun does not demand he take action re: Kirkwall, and how he alludes to the demand potentially "changing" in the future. Yes, as a practical matter the endless insults and provocations lead him to decide that now is as good a time as any to just raze the city to the ground since he also has a lead on the Tome of Koslun, but the fiction matters. 

 

I agree that the Qun is reactive, but it's important to appreciate just how driven they are by fictions re: their rules (akin to legal fictions in legal parlance).