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[In Exile]

They aren't.  They are precisely as democratic as Orlais.  Which is to say, not at all.  Of course the word that was probably intended was "egalitarian".  Which it isn't especially.  It's meritocratic.  Of course part of their definition of "merit" is ideological purity.  

 

No, I meant closer to a "democracy" (as literally defined). Notionally having a Council of three make (at least some subset) of decisions by vote is closer to a democracy than an absolute monarchy (where notionally the Monarch has absolute power and discretion, natural favour-trading aside).

 

Although thinking on it, you could argue the reverse - we know the Empress/Emperor of Orlais may be chosen by a vote. That may well be closer to a democracy than how a member of the Triumverate is chosen. Or maybe not - we actually have no idea. 

[Giantdeathrobot]

I think the Qun is more "acceptable" as a thought experiment if we assume that the Qunari race itself is generally less attached to its personal freedoms that typical humans or elves are, and that there's a grain of truth to the belief that, without the Qun's guiding principles, Qunari people turn into savages. I don't think IB's life experience and viewpoint should be dismissed.

 

Honestly, as a concept the idea of a community-driven society that puts the many above the self is not that abhorent to me; of course, the means that the Qunari use to achieve their ends make them no better than the monarchies of the South, and arguably worse than even the slaver empire. 

[Addictress]

In Inquisition, everyone you talked to would be like,

 

"So, you're a chosen one, huh? How does it feel to be chosen."

 

Then the next time you speak to them:

 

"You are so chosen."

 

It was just too much

 

In Mass Effect, you earned your stripes in Mass Effect 1. They send an alien to judge your performance on your first mission. You have a specific backstory of some prior mission you did which got you the job in the first place, and even when you got the job on the Normandy, you still had to be assessed.

 

Another reason why I'm not ticked with Shepard's space jesus vibes. They gave Shepard a standard Call of Duty marketing look, and voice. So you have these expectations on a meta-level that he'll be some grunt.

 

Then he bangs aliens and chooses quirky interrupts, has scuffles with characters he doesn't trust, and proves them wrong. It was jarring. It was interesting. We earned the space jesus status. Then, they ironically have Connor to dispel the awkwardness of taking space jesus too seriously. It worked. The game became self aware in this fashion.

 

So in the end, the space jesus vibes did not concern me. It did not counter suspension of disbelief. 

[Dai Grepher]

So I finished Tresspasser again, for the...fourth time?  Wow.  I have played Trespasser more times then the game itself.  But it is worth pointing out that Bull in the scene he betrays you says that the Vidisaala invited him there.  Meaning, they were in communication, meaning Iron Bull had a lot of time to discover if it was a rogue operation.  It wasn't a rogue operation.

No, she contacted him at the last minute via her viddathari agents just as the Inquisitor arrives at the Darvaarad. He wasn't able to verify anything with his superiors the whole game. Josephine's letter confirms that.

Also, Weekes and Epler confirmed that Viddasala was unauthorized.

... So because he's terrified to become Tal-Vashoth he'll follow a Tal-Vashoth... which will effectively make him a Tal-Vashoth

Because he's terrified to become Tal-Vashoth, he'll blindly obey the order of a Viddasala who might be Tal-Vashoth or might not be, rather than risk being declared Tal-Vashoth for not following the order.

Hissrad probably felt that it wasn't his place to decide that Viddasala was Tal-Vashoth, but even if she was, that would put her at fault, not him or any of the other Qunari who were being misused by her.

Basically, Hissrad was going the "safe" route, because he would rather be a dead Qunari than risk being labeled Tal-Vashoth, and it wasn't his place to think about the legitimacy of the order given to him. It wasn't his place to think about if the Viddasala was acting outside the Qun or not, of if she was authorized or rogue.

Yes, Iron Bull who knows fully well that the leader of a group of True Qunari not-rogues is a Tal-Vashoth,

Does he know that? Or does he feel it is his place not to think, only to do?

will blindly follow the order of a Tal-Vashoth in order to not be branded a Tal-Vashoth by the True Qunari.

Yes, that is what blindly following is all about. If he follows her order, at worst it only puts him in the same boat as the rest of the true Qunari who are following her orders. If he disobeys her order, at worst it makes him Tal-Vashoth, at best it makes him a real Qunari knowingly killing other real Qunari.

Not the True Qunari who tried to start a war, but the other True Qunari.

No, he may have feared this branding from the Qunari he was fighting against, or the Triumvirate, or even Viddasala. The branding could come from anywhere, and he wanted to avoid it by simply following the order. Even if Viddasala was definitely Tal-Vashoth (which Hissrad didn't know for sure because he didn't think it through), she could still call Hissrad a Tal-Vashoth and the real Qunari at the Darvaarad would believe her. This might then have implications among the real Qunari back in Qunadar.

Personally, I think Hissrad could have wiggled out of it by saying that his order to remain a spy comes from a higher authority than the "Dangerous Purpose" branch's Viddasala. But Weekes wanted Hissrad to turn on you. So that's how the story went. Hissrad blindly followed an order rather than used his mind to think.

The argument is nonsense, but it does have some nuance. Dai Grepher clearly contemplates there is some separate authority in the Qun that has the authority to declare someone Tal-vasoth. Not just any Qunari can declare another Qunari Tal-vasoth.

Thanks for catching the nuance at least. Hissrad can't just decide that Viddasala is Tal-Vashoth, especially since she is of a higher rank. Well, he could, but it would have no authoritative weight behind it.

All of this is to say that the only way he could be wrong is if somehow the IB was raised from birth to me a member of some secret police whose sole role was to identify and expunge dissenting from the Qun. But that's absurd - it would require the IB to be a member of the Ben-Hassrath!

But we know for a fact that Hissrad wasn't raised from birth to do spot dissenters within the Qun. He was raised to be a fighter against Tal-Vashoth and Vints, as well as be a spy in foreign lands.

[Almostfaceman]

Because he's terrified to become Tal-Vashoth, he'll blindly obey the order of a Viddasala who might be Tal-Vashoth or might not be, rather than risk being declared Tal-Vashoth for not following the order.
 

 

Source? 

[Almostfaceman]

Also, Weekes and Epler confirmed that Viddasala was unauthorized.
 

 

Source? 

[Almostfaceman]

 Hissrad can't just decide that Viddasala is Tal-Vashoth, especially since she is of a higher rank. Well, he could, but it would have no authoritative weight behind it.

 

 

Source? 

[Almostfaceman]

If he follows her order, at worst it only puts him in the same boat as the rest of the true Qunari who are following her orders. If he disobeys her order, at worst it makes him Tal-Vashoth, at best it makes him a real Qunari knowingly killing other real Qunari.
 

 

Source? 

[Almostfaceman]

Hissrad probably felt that it wasn't his place to decide that Viddasala was Tal-Vashoth, but even if she was, that would put her at fault, not him or any of the other Qunari who were being misused by her.
 

 

Source? 

[The Baconer]

I think the Qun is more "acceptable" as a thought experiment if we assume that the Qunari race itself is generally less attached to its personal freedoms that typical humans or elves are, and that there's a grain of truth to the belief that, without the Qun's guiding principles, Qunari people turn into savages. I don't think IB's life experience and viewpoint should be dismissed.

The vast majority of Tal-Vashoth, in the areas where they are most prevalent, are ex-Antaam. Fighting and killing was the entire point of their existence within the Qun.

[In Exile]

The vast majority of Tal-Vashoth, in the areas where they are most prevalent, are ex-Antaam. Fighting and killing was the entire point of their existence within the Qun.

 

It's more nuanced than that - as the one Tal-Vasoth in DA2 explains, even those ex-Antaam we see are still fulfilling a role - the role they think a Tal-Vasoth should play. It wasn't a notion that got a lot of play in DA2, but I thought it was fascinating - the idea that even in rebelling agains the Qun, they're still trapped by it, playing out a new role they thin they must. Marass - when he adopts a name that means nothing, and says he does thinks simply because - is actually IMO the only former Qunari we met who isn't still following the Qun.

[Dai Grepher]

I think the Qun is more "acceptable" as a thought experiment if we assume that the Qunari race itself is generally less attached to its personal freedoms that typical humans or elves are, and that there's a grain of truth to the belief that, without the Qun's guiding principles, Qunari people turn into savages. I don't think IB's life experience and viewpoint should be dismissed.

I agree it shouldn't be dismissed, but it seems evident that the savagery Bull speaks of is mostly the result of the Qunari conditioning. It's also likely that "savagery" means something else to the Qunari than it does to us. To Hissrad, Armas would be a "savage" for selling wares to Darkspawn, when to us he is simply self-serving and immoral, not violent or bloodthirsty. But to the Qunari, his savagery manifests in the results his actions produce. He empowers the Darkspawn, and they kill the life around them, making him responsible and thus equally as savage.

The Vashoth qunari don't seem any more prone to violence or murder than any other race. So I don't think there is a genetic compulsion or instinct. Maybe there was long ago with the Kossith, and over time that eventually worked itself out of their species. Perhaps Koslun wrote the Qun to help the Qunari along with the process of denying those impulses. Maybe those impulses were not so easily suppressed, and in turn they caused new followers of the Qun to distort what Koslum intended.

I suppose this will be answered in a future title, but I think it could be a mix of genetic compulsion and the Qunari oversimplifying the situation with those who abandon the Qun.

Honestly, as a concept the idea of a community-driven society that puts the many above the self is not that abhorent to me; of course, the means that the Qunari use to achieve their ends make them no better than the monarchies of the South, and arguably worse than even the slaver empire.

Agreed. Patriotism is a virtue, but individual rights are important also.

[Spam.]

He'll blindly obey ... rather than risk being declared Tal-Vashoth.

http://forum.bioware...ent/?p=20193949

Solas and Iron Bull banter.


Weekes/Epler confirm Viddasala unauthorized.

http://forum.bioware...ent/?p=20187604

Weekes/Epler conference.


Hissrad can't declare Viddasala Tal-Vashoth, she's of a higher rank.

The DLC and its codex on Viddasala.


Consequences of following her order.

Self-evident.

Following makes him the same as the other real Qunari he fought against. Disobeying means being called Tal-Vashoth for disobeying the order at most, or at the very least it means fighting more real Qunari, only this time with the knowledge that they are real Qunari, which could possibly have reprecussions.


Hissrad felt it wasn't his place to decide Viddasala's validity.

http://forum.bioware...ent/?p=20193949

Solas and Iron Bull banter, same as first source.


Viddasala's misuse of real Qunari puts her at fault.

DLC's epilogue stating that the Ben-Hassrath disavowed Viddasala's actions, Qunari returned to the North.

[Almostfaceman]

He'll blindly obey ... rather than risk being declared Tal-Vashoth.

http://forum.bioware...ent/?p=20193949

Solas and Iron Bull banter.


Weekes/Epler confirm Viddasala unauthorized.

http://forum.bioware...ent/?p=20187604

Weekes/Epler conference.


Hissrad can't declare Viddasala Tal-Vashoth, she's of a higher rank.

The DLC and its codex on Viddasala.


Consequences of following her order.

Self-evident.

Following makes him the same as the other real Qunari he fought against. Disobeying means being called Tal-Vashoth for disobeying the order at most, or at the very least it means fighting more real Qunari, only this time with the knowledge that they are real Qunari, which could possibly have reprecussions.


Hissrad felt it wasn't his place to decide Viddasala's validity.

http://forum.bioware...ent/?p=20193949

Solas and Iron Bull banter, same as first source.


Viddasala's misuse of real Qunari puts her at fault.

DLC's epilogue stating that the Ben-Hassrath disavowed Viddasala's actions, Qunari returned to the North.

 

Your opinion isn't a source and state what exactly in the Weekes interview is a source for your opinion. 

[In Exile]

Your opinion isn't a source and state what exactly in the Weekes interview is a source for your opinion. 

 

Technically, he linked to the opinion of other people as to why he is wrong (well, more technically he linked to posts sourcing statements by Weekes, which are coincidentally also posts that disagree with Dai on the very claim they are quoted in support). 

[Almostfaceman]

Technically, he linked to the opinion of other people as to why he is wrong (well, more technically he linked to posts sourcing statements by Weekes, which are coincidentally also posts that disagree with Dai on the very claim they are quoted in support). 

 

He linked some of his comments in the forum. Other folks were also talking in the link, arguing with him. That's his opinion. I was asking for sources about specific claims he was making. He also linked an entire interview, instead of anything Weekes said specifically to support his argument. 

 

At this point, I'm not really trying to convince him of something, rather just segment some of his claims and see if he has any interesting support from, like, the game or a book or the wiki. He's rather energetic about this discussion, I didn't think he'd mind. 

[midnight tea]

In Inquisition, everyone you talked to would be like,

 

"So, you're a chosen one, huh? How does it feel to be chosen."

 

Then the next time you speak to them:

 

"You are so chosen."

 

It was just too much

 

Um... that was the point. Like... ever since first few minutes of the game the player is told that a lot of people believe they're Thedas' Jesus chosen. So in DAI protagonist has to deal with a greatness that is imposed on a player and they have to grow to it. I'm surprised that there are still people who think that this isn't fully intentional.

[midnight tea]

 Weekes and Epler confirmed that Viddasala was unauthorized.
 

 

*facepalm* They did a complete opposite.

 

 

Because he's terrified to become Tal-Vashoth, he'll blindly obey the order of a Viddasala who might be Tal-Vashoth or might not be, rather than risk being declared Tal-Vashoth for not following the order.

 

If he follows orders of Tal Vashoth he's going Tal Vashoth - whether he follows orders or not he'd be going against the Qun. Like - what use the Qunari would have of a spy who can't tell what is a real order or not, or follows it to save his own a**???

 

Your little speculation would work only if IB was a complete moron OR if he acted on sort of a confused impulse. Problem is that when he's re-Qunverted, there are NO impulses and his actions are very deliberate. It's decidedly noted that after his visit to Par Vollen he acts reserved, and if you take Cole on a mission to Darvaraad, he notes that Iron Bull was "empty inside". So there was no terror, he was fully committed to the mission ever since his re-education.

 

And even if you say that this is "just my interpretation" there still remains the fact that Weekes completely destroys yours when he said - for the n-th time - that Bull. Would. Not. Betray. Us. For. A. Rogue. Group.

 

And I think he knows the character he wrote way better than you.

[Giantdeathrobot]

The vast majority of Tal-Vashoth, in the areas where they are most prevalent, are ex-Antaam. Fighting and killing was the entire point of their existence within the Qun.

 

The only Tal-Vashoth we see in numbers are in DA2, where the only Qunari around are Antaam, so that's not really indicative. Per IB, there's a lot on Seheron, but how much is attributable to Qunari conditioning and how much to how much of a hellhole the place seems to be is unclear. Wouldn't surprise me if the Qunari interpreted various forms of PTSD and stress-related mental illnesses as being Tal-Vashoth, and then you either run away from the Qun or get re-educated. Maybe as many or more Tevinter agents go rogue or snap, but they don't talk about it and/or have no term for it so that ends up being less obvious.

 

Of course, it's very possible that the highly stressful life of a soldier (compared to the more enregimented and orderly life most Qunari civilians seem to have) brings out the Tal-Vashoth in Antaam troops more easily. Our in-game characters recklessly face death as a daily occurence without flinching, but in reality it's not so easy a burden to bear.

[Addictress]

Um... that was the point. Like... ever since first few minutes of the game the player is told that a lot of people believe they're Thedas' Jesus chosen. So in DAI protagonist has to deal with a greatness that is imposed on a player and they have to grow to it. I'm surprised that there are still people who think that this isn't fully intentional.

It made me want to puke.

[Reznore57]

The only Tal-Vashoth we see in numbers are in DA2, where the only Qunari around are Antaam, so that's not really indicative. Per IB, there's a lot on Seheron, but how much is attributable to Qunari conditioning and how much to how much of a hellhole the place seems to be is unclear. Wouldn't surprise me if the Qunari interpreted various forms of PTSD and stress-related mental illnesses as being Tal-Vashoth, and then you either run away from the Qun or get re-educated. Maybe as many or more Tevinter agents go rogue or snap, but they don't talk about it and/or have no term for it so that ends up being less obvious.

 

Of course, it's very possible that the highly stressful life of a soldier (compared to the more enregimented and orderly life most Qunari civilians seem to have) brings out the Tal-Vashoth in Antaam troops more easily. Our in-game characters recklessly face death as a daily occurence without flinching, but in reality it's not so easy a burden to bear.

 

You also have the Vashoth , I don't remember seeing any vashoth in game except the Qunari Inqui and I think his/her mercenary company are also Vashoth.

It seems the Vashoth are people of the Qun who just managed to leave and never look back.

There's little info about them and I haven't play a Qunquisitor so I don't know if they have some sort of culture of their own.

[Gilli]

You also have the Vashoth , I don't remember seeing any vashoth in game except the Qunari Inqui and I think his/her mercenary company are also Vashoth.

It seems the Vashoth are people of the Qun who just managed to leave and never look back.

There's little info about them and I haven't play a Qunquisitor so I don't know if they have some sort of culture of their own.

 

I don't know much about their culture, but I played a Vashot Inky (she was actually my first Inquisitor) and yes, the members of the Mercenary group are all Vashot.

 

The Qunari Inquisitor is a Vashoth; a Qunari who was never born into the Qun.

 

There are some dialogue options you get, but most of them are with Bull.* You get also one in Trespasser, when you meet the ex-Templar in the Deep Roads. He asks you, if you know what a Saarebas is and if your Inky is a Vashot-mage they answer with "I AM a Saarebas."

 

*The first Qunari option you get with Bull at the Storm Coast, was actually the one that put me off from his romance, cause how he responded to my Adaar, who just wanted to be polite. 

[The Baconer]

The only Tal-Vashoth we see in numbers are in DA2, where the only Qunari around are Antaam, so that's not really indicative. Per IB, there's a lot on Seheron, but how much is attributable to Qunari conditioning and how much to how much of a hellhole the place seems to be is unclear. Wouldn't surprise me if the Qunari interpreted various forms of PTSD and stress-related mental illnesses as being Tal-Vashoth, and then you either run away from the Qun or get re-educated. Maybe as many or more Tevinter agents go rogue or snap, but they don't talk about it and/or have no term for it so that ends up being less obvious.

 

Of course, it's very possible that the highly stressful life of a soldier (compared to the more enregimented and orderly life most Qunari civilians seem to have) brings out the Tal-Vashoth in Antaam troops more easily. Our in-game characters recklessly face death as a daily occurence without flinching, but in reality it's not so easy a burden to bear.

 

It's indicative because there aren't really examples of non-Antaam Qunari turning Tal-Vashoth with the same consistency or presence. Wherever the Antaam is stationed as an occupational force (barring Kirkwall), the ensuing Tal-Vashoth are noted to be particularly violent and "savage". I don't think it's a coincidence. 

 

As for PTSD, the Qunari actually do recognize it as an illness requiring treatment ('soul-sickness'). It's actually an acute problem for the Antaam in Seheron. Of course, as enlightened as the Qunari might compared to the rest of Thedas on this issue, they still think it's an ailment in which one may simply find a "cure". The Ariqun just hasn't found it yet. 

[Gwydden]

No, I meant closer to a "democracy" (as literally defined). Notionally having a Council of three make (at least some subset) of decisions by vote is closer to a democracy than an absolute monarchy (where notionally the Monarch has absolute power and discretion, natural favour-trading aside).

 

Although thinking on it, you could argue the reverse - we know the Empress/Emperor of Orlais may be chosen by a vote. That may well be closer to a democracy than how a member of the Triumverate is chosen. Or maybe not - we actually have no idea. 

As far as we know, Tevinter is the only democracy in Thedas. Sure, they are an oligarchic democracy, much like the Roman Republic, but let's not pretend our own modern democracies don't favor the rich and powerful to some extent.

 

Hence the issue. The Qun is awful when compared to our modern society, but when you put it against other countries in Thedas, well, the issue doesn't become clear cut but it does grow more nuanced. I think people have a tendency to underestimate how much continental Thedas sucks, probably because we experience it through the eyes of the privileged few most of the time.

[QueenCrow]

I think the Qun is more "acceptable" as a thought experiment if we assume that the Qunari race itself is generally less attached to its personal freedoms that typical humans or elves are, and that there's a grain of truth to the belief that, without the Qun's guiding principles, Qunari people turn into savages. I don't think IB's life experience and viewpoint should be dismissed.

 

Honestly, as a concept the idea of a community-driven society that puts the many above the self is not that abhorent to me; of course, the means that the Qunari use to achieve their ends make them no better than the monarchies of the South, and arguably worse than even the slaver empire. 

 

You're truly onto something here...

 

A recurrent theme in the Dragon Age games is Order vs. Chaos.  Of course, we learn the price to order and the risks of chaos more with each successive game.  That thought experiment can, and should be applied to the Qunari and the Qun, and I think Iron Bull's part in helping us along in the thought experiment is key.

 

When we first kill a dragon with Iron Bull, there's the interesting conversation afterward in which IB relates the myth (which often turn out to be based upon truth in the DA world) that the big grey, muscular giants with horns are part dragon.  In the same post-dragon kill scene, Iron Bull will say that what he loves about killing dragons is that they are the embodiment of raw chaos - extreme power that is unharnessed, uncontrolled and extremely dangerous.  That seems like it might be a pointer toward the reasons the Qun exists for the grey giants with horns and why it seems to require an extreme kind of order.  

 

If the dragon blood theory is true, are the grey giants with horns natural Reavers?  Do they all have the qualities that Cassandra will warn a Reaver Inquisitor of - fits of unexplained and uncontrolled rage, extreme bloodlust, etc?  And if that is true, is the Qun a way for dragon-blooded Reavers to try and harness the uncontrolled power that can't exist without the kinds of extreme risks that come with chaos?

[midnight tea]

You're truly onto something here...

 

A recurrent theme in the Dragon Age games is Order vs. Chaos.  Of course, we learn the price to order and the risks of chaos more with each successive game.  That thought experiment can, and should be applied to the Qunari and the Qun, and I think Iron Bull's part in helping us along in the thought experiment is key.

 

When we first kill a dragon with Iron Bull, there's the interesting conversation afterward in which IB relates the myth (which often turn out to be based upon truth in the DA world) that the big grey, muscular giants with horns are part dragon.  In the same post-dragon kill scene, Iron Bull will say that what he loves about killing dragons is that they are the embodiment of raw chaos - extreme power that is unharnessed, uncontrolled and extremely dangerous.  That seems like it might be a pointer toward the reasons the Qun exists for the grey giants with horns and why it seems to require an extreme kind of order.  

 

If the dragon blood theory is true, are the grey giants with horns natural Reavers?  Do they all have the qualities that Cassandra will warn a Reaver Inquisitor of - fits of unexplained and uncontrolled rage, extreme bloodlust, etc?  And if that is true, is the Qun a way for dragon-blooded Reavers to try and harness the uncontrolled power that can't exist without the kinds of extreme risks that come with chaos?

 

Oh, there's more - if Inky is a Qunari and Kieran is OGB, he says an interesting tidbit, namely "I'm sorry what happened to your people". He says that as if the Qunari were victims of some kind of tragedy - experiments perhaps? - and perhaps their own political system stems from conditioning they went through that was there to put them and in line by those who probably tried to create an army. Thing is that when Qunari left - in mysterious circumstances they're uncertain of - they either broke the chain and convinced themselves that part of their conditioning is their inherent culture they have to follow to a T (otherwise they get mad)... or... perhaps... someone deliberately let them loose on Thedas?