1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Dai Grepher & Kurogane - Qun obscurantists and apologists. I don't know why people choose to entertain them on this issue.

[sniper_arrow]

Dai Grepher & Kurogane - Qun obscurantists and apologists. I don't know why people choose to entertain them on this issue.

 

The same reason why we choose to entertain the mage vs templar issue: it's our nature...

[SweetTeaholic]

Dai Grepher & Kurogane - Qun obscurantists and apologists. I don't know why people choose to entertain them on this issue.

 

You do know this is the BSN we're talking about here?

Really, I'm just watching this trainwreck now. Gave up saying anything being I already said what was needed earlier in the tread and Dai still twisted my words around and refused to listen. I gave up right there.

[Gilli]

Hey, Gi, what's the first Qunari option for Bull on the coast, anyway?

 

You basically greet him in Qunlat.

And Bull get's sooo angry at you for talking Qunlat.

 

"DON'T TALK QUNLAT INFRONT OF THE CHARGERS!!!1111!!!"

 

 

Or at least he sounded angry in german.

I was thinking of creating another Adaar Inquisitor and then record his recruitment scene. If you want.

[midnight tea]

About Bull and Sten, they are not very reliable sources because the Qunari have proven once and again they are reticent to share the truth about their society with outsiders. Bull was trained to be an agent and a liar. As for Sten, he strives to show to the Warden only what HE thinks an outsider should see when contemplating a Qunari warrior. So he lets you see what he wants you to see.

 

Qunari are manipulative that way. The Qun dictates they must have different policies for their kind and for foreigners, the non-enlightened people, according to their system of belief. 

 

You want to learn about the Qunari culture, you need to become Viddathari or have access to information that is not easily found where your PC lives. 

 

Hmm... so you're saying that we need more information and perhaps a chance to become Viddathari to actually evaluate their culture... yet you've already decided that the Qunari are manipulative and treat outsiders the way they do?

 

Hmmm... bit of an inconsistency here, wouldn't you say?

 

I mean, you can say that Sten and Bull (or the Arishok, or Gatt) aren't reliable sources and all, but that doesn't change the fact that they have given us a decent insight into how a Qunari views the world. How people treat others, after all - and especially when they're outside their comfort zones - speak volumes abut themselves as well as where they come from.

 

Also - saying things like "Sten strives to show to the Warden only what HE thinks an outsider should see when contemplating a Qunari warrior" doesn't really change much from my initial point... though I wouldn't say it's much of truth there. I mean.. was Sten's aim to show Warden that a Qunari warrior is oftentimes very confused by things he's unfamiliar with? Because that's what Sten often is.

 

As for Bull - saying that "Bull is trained to be an agent and a liar" is a vast oversimplification: yes, Bull might has been trained as an agent and a liar, but you can see just how uncomfortable he is with it, up to a point that he basically adopts Solas' shtick of lying by omission and saying things that are an actual truth, only masked in a way that people don't really make much of it, among other things. And he's like that at least up until we decide he should sacrifice Chargers (a quest to which, coincidentally, we get to only by exhausting some of his dialogue options about Qunari or Ben-Hassrath). He's visibly upset at  Gatt for revealing before a person he began to see as a friend that Hissrad means a liar and before getting to Stom coast you can totally see how uncomfortable he appears to be with an idea of Qunari not being "out there", but marching here and offering an alliance he is suspicious of himself.

 

That can tell us a lot of things. Not full picture, but enough to tell something about the Qunari.

[Dai Grepher]

If you want just watch the linked video and the interview in the OP. That's all I did. I didn't come at this with any pre-conceived notions. I was able to make up my own mind. Nobody talked me into anything.

Your problem is that you hear "not a rogue group" and you just assume are an "authorized group". Just because they are real Qunari doesn't mean they were authorized to attack the South. I proved this point to you numerous times with the example of the Arishok in DA2.

The more and more i read your twisted half truths you have wrestled into a your idealized version of the facts the more i am convinced you work as spin doctor for a political party.

Then refute the post I made detailing the statements from the convention where Weekes and Epler confirm that the Trespasser Qunari were not authorized by the Triumvirate.

[MrObnoxiousUK]

Then refute the post I made detailing the statements from the convention where Weekes and Epler confirm that the Trespasser Qunari were not authorized by the Triumvirate.

I don't need to refute it,the onus is on you to prove it beyond all possible doubt.I have seen the interview and at no point what so ever do they discount or disprove involvement,you completely bank on the fact that the Triumvirate were not directly mentioned as a fallacy to support your argument.

[Almostfaceman]

Your problem is that you hear "not a rogue group" and you just assume are an "authorized group". Just because they are real Qunari doesn't mean they were authorized to attack the South. I proved this point to you numerous times with the example of the Arishok in DA2.

 

 

Bioware made us wait until Inquisition to tell us the Arishok went rogue. We have a nice little conversation with Varric when discussing Hawke with him and he gives us the run down. I can link it again if you want. This time, Weekes isn't making us wait. He's telling us - outside of the game - what's really going on.  It's that simple. Your theory disregards the devs plain meaning and makes it do roller coaster loops through your head canon. It's your prerogative, but it's not a convincing argument.

[Rel Fexive]

Is this preposterous denial of the blatantly obvious really still going on?

[robertthebard]

Your problem is that you hear "not a rogue group" and you just assume are an "authorized group". Just because they are real Qunari doesn't mean they were authorized to attack the South. I proved this point to you numerous times with the example of the Arishok in DA2.

My problem is that I hear "not a rogue group, because IB wouldn't do that", and I understand what that means. You, on the other hand, have grabbed onto "But my qunari wouldn't do that" as the sole basis for your argument. It's all good for your head canon, but it doesn't fit with what we've actually been told.

[The Baconer]

Does he know that? Or does he feel it is his place not to think, only to do?

 

You repeat over and over again all the spots in which Iron Bull should realize the Viddasala has gone rogue, but now he doesn't know? Bull was placed in the Ben-Hassrath for his ability to think. 

 

There was no pain, no inner-conflict, as Cole confirms. Liar the Lying Spy lied to you, who would've thought. 

[Dai Grepher]

The found Triumvirate"letter" could be fake made to deflect suspicion, an official courier for the triumvirate will have an official escort and even a rogue element will have a hell of a job trying to justify to waylay the top 3 bosses personal mail.

And if it was a fake made to deflect suspicion, then why wasn't it sent to Josephine to do exactly that? Why was it balled up and discarded at the Darvaarad?

Viddasala didn't care about killing Qunari if it meant completing Dragon's Breath. That should be obvious from all the Qunari she had sacrificed already.

There would be no justification for killing the courier. She would either say the Inquisition killed them, or she would accept responsibility along with Dragon's Breath after it was completed.

We do,you assume we do not,you just twist half truths into a form that suits you rhetoric.

I assume you don't because what you are posting here is in direct conflict with the game. I post facts straight from the game. You can't refute the facts.

Okay,i got the name a bit wrong,my bad. Tevinter has been in a state of war with Qunari elements in a sort of cold war with seasonal fighting along a stable front to the point it is almost routine for both factions,it has been stated by the Qunari numerous times that they are not on a full war footing.

Okay, mistakes happen. I'm just thinking if you were mistaken about the name of the mission, what else are you mistaken about?

Right, they have been in constant conflict for ages, so why would more attacks against Tevinter after Trespasser be worthy of note?

If they found a body they would abort,really you think they live in the age of email and instant messaging do you?

Any viddathari servant could have observed this, or Hissrad if he was in on it (which he would be if this were an official operation), and sent a message to anyone above them to get it called off. Dragon's Breath relied entirely on the element of surprise. That was all done once the Qunari body was found.

Information is passed up and down the line via courier and snail mail,by the time the big wigs get an update on a situation it can be too late to stop anything from happening,which is why they most likely gave Viddy broad operational freedoms.

I'm talking about the message traveling up the chain of command to Viddasala, not to the Triumvirate on down. And even if the message couldn't beat the Inquisitor to the elvhen ruins, the mere fact that the Inquisitor shows up there should have been enough for all those Qunari to realize the plan was a bust.

Instead they just run out and start attacking the Inquisitor and Hissrad if he's there. They didn't even try to talk to the Inquisitor or Hissrad to see what they knew first.

I get the feeling the Fen Harel wiped out alot more than what we saw on screen,i could well be wrong but in my opinion i think the "manpower" in the Eluvian system numbered in the low to high hundreds.You should not take everything a spy tells you at face value,they are famed for deception after all.

But I don't believe Viddasala. That's my point. Viddasala is deceptive, but we're to believe her when she says Par Vollen is involved in this? No. As for Fen'Harel killing the main invasion force, that is just your guess. But even if true, that would only be the forces in the eluvian locations. An invasion would come from the sea via warships. There were no warships, no landing parties, no base camps set up, no warriors on the shores of the Southern nations. Even the spies that had infiltrated didn't start attacking.

No,what you mean is "why are not you bending to my twisted half truths and logic"

I merely asked you a question. If you can't answer it logically the fault is yours not mine.

You don't get it,the Qunari triumvirate gambled and failed,they took a risk,a calculated risk that tried to stack the odds in their favour but a risk none the less.Also once you send an army away it is very VERY hard to get it to turn around and stop.

The Triumvirate would not gamble with something as important as invading the South. Either they would commit to it no matter what, or they would wait until they were ready to take the South. Not only was Dragon's Breath a complete gamble, and a bad one at that, but Par Vollen wasn't ready to attack the South. They didn't have the forces to take and hold the South.

Also, they wouldn't need to recall the Qunari in Trespasser. All they would need to do is explain their presence in the elvhen ruins. They would simply be telling them to abort the attack on the South and destroy all evidence that they were planning to attack the South. At that point, all agents revert to their previous roles of just being spies. The Qunari in the ruins would just say they are there to seek out and destroy dangerous elvhen magic.

They did not initially plan for it but they are smart and they adapt as the situation developed,you are acting like the Qunari are stupid children, Ben Hassarath are chosen for the ability to adapt on the fly.

Wrong. They failed to stop the Inquisitor every step of the way. I'm claiming the Qunari are NOT stupid children. I'm claiming that Dragon's Breath was all Viddasala's idea, and she was incompetent. That is why the plan was just a massive failure on every level. When the Triumvirate invades, it will be a bloodbath.

How do you know? are you in the Triumvirate and Ben Hassarath mailing list or are you maybe a courier?

Because Solas states that she was his agent, and Solas was against the Qunari. Also Weekes states that she was originally meant to be the Inquisition's spy, but was later changed to be Solas' spy. So no, she wasn't working with the Qunari at all. She's the one who exposed the Qunari plot, remember?

[Dai Grepher]

I don't need to refute it,the onus is on you to prove it beyond all possible doubt.I have seen the interview and at no point what so ever do they discount or disprove involvement,you completely bank on the fact that the Triumvirate were not directly mentioned as a fallacy to support your argument.

I did prove it. You can't even come up with an argument against it. You don't understand how burden of proof works. Yes, I made the claim, so I proved it in my post detailing Weekes' and Epler's comments. You have failed to even respond to that post. The onus is now on you to refute me.

Bioware made us wait until Inquisition to tell us the Arishok went rogue.

WHAT?! They waited until the NEXT game to tell us this? Unbelievable!!! They waited ONE WHOLE GAME!!!

And now they have waited only a few months to tell us that Viddasala did the same thing as the Arishok. Imagine that.

We have a nice little conversation with Varric when discussing Hawke with him and he gives us the run down. I can link it again if you want. This time, Weekes isn't making us wait. He's telling us - outside of the game - what's really going on.

Right, and he said they were a real group of Qunari that was not authorized by the Triumvirate to attack the South.

It's that simple. Your theory disregards the devs plain meaning and makes it do roller coaster loops through your head canon. It's your prerogative, but it's not a convincing argument.

Not sure where you're seeing all these twists and turns. What Viddasala did is exactly like what the Arishok did in DA2. Straight line.

You point to Varric telling us that Par Vollen disavowed the Arishok, right? So then why isn't that subterfuge? Why isn't that claim met with baseless accusations of "Well of course that's what the Triumvirate would say, plausible deniability!!!", right?

See, you're applying a double standard here. Arishok was a real Qunari who wasn't authorized, but Viddasala? Oh no, there's no such thing as being a real Qunari who isn't authorized. That would make her a rogue, and Weekes said it wasn't a rogue group (even though Weekes didn't refer to Viddasala, just those she commanded).

Double standard.

You repeat over and over again all the spots in which Iron Bull should realize the Viddasala has gone rogue, but now he doesn't know? Bull was placed in the Ben-Hassrath for his ability to think.

He was placed among bas because he could think on his feet, lie, and spy on them. That isn't the same as being among Qunari.

And yes, my personal belief is that Hissrad should have seen that Viddasala was unauthorized and acting on her own without permission from the Triumvirate. He should have seen she was actively defying their wishes. But Patrick Weekes believed Hissrad shouldn't have seen this. Weekes believes Hissrad should have just blindly followed any order given to him by a Qunari. So that is what the storyline shows.

My statements that Hissrad should have known better is more a complaint that he was given the "idiot ball", as so many in Trespasser were.

There was no pain, no inner-conflict, as Cole confirms. Liar the Lying Spy lied to you, who would've thought.

And yet he helped us cut down all those Qunari. Worst lying spy evah!

Look, Cole's perspective is fine, but all he's telling you is that Hissrad didn't feel bad about turning on you. That is not evidence that Hissrad knew anything about Dragon's Breath ahead of time.

If anything, the lack of personal conflict shows that he suppressed all thought and just blindly followed orders like a mindless drone.

[Almostfaceman]

WHAT?! They waited until the NEXT game to tell us this? Unbelievable!!! They waited ONE WHOLE GAME!!!

And now they have waited only a few months to tell us that Viddasala did the same thing as the Arishok. Imagine that.

 

Nope. They actually said the opposite. They tell us in Inquisition that the Arishok's actions weren't approved. After the fact. He did a no-no. It's just the same as if I were working as an American soldier and shot a POW. I wasn't guilty of going rogue until I went rogue. The Arishok attacked Kirkwall and he shouldn't have. It didn't start a war because his actions were unsanctioned. He made a mistake. 

 

Then they told us that there are no no-no's in Trespasser. Nobody goes rogue. All the Qunari actions are authorized and approved, anything we see in Trespasser notwithstanding. No Qunari's make the mistake of doing something unsactioned in Trespasser. 

[Almostfaceman]

See, you're applying a double standard here. Arishok was a real Qunari who wasn't authorized, but Viddasala? Oh no, there's no such thing as being a real Qunari who isn't authorized. That would make her a rogue, and Weekes said it wasn't a rogue group (even though Weekes didn't refer to Viddasala, just those she commanded).

Double standard.

 

This is complete nonsense. I can be a "real" American soldier and still commit an act that's unauthorized. All I have to do is willfully do something against regs, or just not wait for authorization from a higher authority and do what I want at the moment in a situation. That's all the Arishok did. He paid the price later on. 

 

Weekes never makes a distinction between the Viddasala and any other Qunari we fight against. 

[The Baconer]

He was placed among bas because he could think on his feet, lie, and spy on them. That isn't the same as being among Qunari.

 

The Tamassran who assessed Iron Bull early on in his life called him Ashkaari. Literally "One who thinks" or "One who is enlightened". His inability to be obedient is what barred him from a career in the Antaam. 

 

 

And yet he helped us cut down all those Qunari. Worst lying spy evah!

 

He might be the worst. Whether he is or is irrelevant, of course, as all that matter is that he was a spy and a liar.

 

 

If anything, the lack of personal conflict shows that he suppressed all thought and just blindly followed orders like a mindless drone.

 

lol

[Bayonet Hipshot]

Is this preposterous denial of the blatantly obvious really still going on?

 

Yes. If anything, I think its good practice because it gives you and idea of how to deal with people like these in real life.

[Almostfaceman]

@Dai Grepher

 

I think you're disregarding perspective. 

 

First, we have the players perspective. From our perspective, at first, anything we fight with horns is a "Qunari". This is especially true for DA2. So Bioware has to start explaining things from the perspective of the Qunari. We already know, from Dragon Age Origins, that we're not yet at war with the Qunari. So, why are we fighting hordes of horned guys in DA2? 

 

To clear up the players confusion, Bioware, through the game, tells us that the hordes we're fighting are Tal'Vashoth. This is a bit of the Qunari perspective. These are Qunari who have already been considered rogues and outcasts by Qunari standards. We don't have to go through the process of them becoming Tal'Vashoth, that's already happened. 

 

Then, from the players perspective, we see a Qunari try to apply the Qun to Kirkwall by taking it over by force. That's just our perspective though. Bioware, through the game Dragon Age 2, doesn't go to the trouble to tell us if this is an action that can be considered "bad" or a "no-no" or "unauthorized" or "rogue". Our perspective is purposely limited. We don't see the whole picture until Dragon Age Inquisition.

 

In Dragon Age Inquisition, Bioware, through Varric, gives us the Qunari perspective. We find out we actually were witness to a big Qunari no-no. The Arishok went rogue. The Kirkwall situation made him make a mistake.

 

So once again, in Trespasser, the perspective is again limited to that of the player. We're only allowed to see things from our point of view. There are no cut-scenes of Qunari leaders plotting war - quite unlike say, Dragon Age Origins, where we get to see Loghain plotting against the Hero of Ferelden.

 

The lead writer, Patrick Weekes, after Trespasser came out, decided to give us the Qunari perspective. What was it? The Qunari were an invading force trying to attack the leadership of Thedas. Weekes even made it a special point that this was not some Qunari mistake, not some offshoot, not some rogue action.

 

So now we don't have to wait for the next game to find out the full picture. We have both the player perspective and the Qunari perspective for Trespasser.  

[thats1evildude]

Iron Bull was to maintain cover until ordered otherwise. He killed other qunari, yes, but they were expendable assets at bases already thrown into disarray by Solas. It's not like the qunari never throw away lives when it suits their purpose.

The ataashi was key to the whole Dragon's Breath operation, however. The Inquisiton had recovered most of the bombs, but they could always make more gaatlok so long as they had the dragon. The operation was still semi-viable.

At that point, the Vidddasala was desperate enough to order Hissrad into action.

[Dai Grepher]

Nope. They actually said the opposite. They tell us in Inquisition that the Arishok's actions weren't approved. After the fact.

They actually told us this before the fact through the Arishok himself who outright states that it isn't his role to educate the bas, nor is it to attack or conquer Kirkwall. Then Varric confirmed it in Inquisition. Yet you aren't calling that a coverup. You aren't accusing the Triumvirate of plausible deniability in the Arishok's case. Why not?

He did a no-no. It's just the same as if I were working as an American soldier and shot a POW. I wasn't guilty of going rogue until I went rogue. The Arishok attacked Kirkwall and he shouldn't have. It didn't start a war because his actions were unsanctioned. He made a mistake.

And yet Viddasala's actions didn't start a war either. Hmmmm. Could it be that she wasn't authorized either?

Then they told us that there are no no-no's in Trespasser. Nobody goes rogue.

They didn't say that. They said the Qunari in Trespasser are real Qunari. That doesn't mean they were authorized in their actions.

Let me ask you this. Were the DA2 Qunari in Kirkwall real Qunari, or were they a rogue group?

All the Qunari actions are authorized and approved, anything we see in Trespasser notwithstanding. No Qunari's make the mistake of doing something unsactioned in Trespasser.

Well that's your opinion, not Weekes'. In fact, in the conference Weekes confirms that feeding lyrium to saarebas to make super-weapons went against how Qunari society treats saarebas.

He also called it the kind of short-term gain/long-term loss deal with the devil that characters in the Dragon Age universe often make. That describes Viddasala perfectly. It does not describe the Triumvirate, which has been playing the long game for hundreds of years, slowly infiltrating the South with spies. If they're about to invade, they aren't going to risk hundreds of years of planning and preparation on untested super-weapons that could blow up in their face. They aren't going to go with the short-term gain. They're going to go with the long-term gain. And they certainly aren't going to trust everything to one agent, whom Epler referred to as the Qunari leader.

This is complete nonsense. I can be a "real" American soldier and still commit an act that's unauthorized.

Yeah? That's exactly my point. Viddasala was a real Qunari and still committed an act that was unauthorized.

All I have to do is willfully do something against regs, or just not wait for authorization from a higher authority and do what I want at the moment in a situation. That's all the Arishok did. He paid the price later on.

And if you killed the Arishok then Viddasala paid the same price as he did. And she too was disavowed by the Triumvirate. Right? So why is the Triumvirate disavowing the Arishok true while them disavowing the Viddasala a deception?

Weekes never makes a distinction between the Viddasala and any other Qunari we fight against.

He never mentioned Viddasala at all. In the interview in the OP he merely said the Qunari we fought against weren't a rogue group. I never wrote anything to the contrary. But in the convention video he did make the distinction between those Qunari in Trespasser and the rest back in Par Vollen. He confirmed that those in Par Vollen suppress the saarebas from all things magic, while the Qunari we fight in the DLC are immersing them in magic. Also, John Epler did referred to Viddasala as the Qunari leader. So, there ya go. Argue with the writers all you want to.

The Tamassran who assessed Iron Bull early on in his life called him Ashkaari. Literally "One who thinks" or "One who is enlightened". His inability to be obedient is what barred him from a career in the Antaam.

Hence my opinion that he should have been able to see that Viddasala was unauthorized. But Weekes thought differently. Not going to argue with him on it (though I have a theory on why he did it this way). All I can do is speculate as to why Hissrad couldn't see that Viddasala was unauthorized. My guess is that after he snapped on Seheron and was re-educated, he was taught to simply follow orders whenever he was in doubt. That would explain why he looks to the Inquisitor during the Storm Coast mission. It would also explain why he simply obeys the order given to him by Viddasala.

He might be the worst. Whether he is or is irrelevant, of course, as all that matter is that he was a spy and a liar.

He was a spy for who exactly? And what makes you think he was lying to the Inquisitor in Trespasser?

lol

Indeed. Ironic that the only version of Bull that would think this through is a Tal-Vashoth Bull, who wouldn't have obeyed Viddasala even if she had been authorized.

[Dai Grepher]

Yes. If anything, I think its good practice because it gives you and idea of how to deal with people like these in real life.

True. Even arguing against someone you know is wrong can help you refine your own stance.

@Dai Grepher

I think you're disregarding perspective.

Oh, you're ready to discuss this seriously now? Okay then, I'm reading.

First, we have the players perspective. From our perspective, at first, anything we fight with horns is a "Qunari". This is especially true for DA2. So Bioware has to start explaining things from the perspective of the Qunari. We already know, from Dragon Age Origins, that we're not yet at war with the Qunari. So, why are we fighting hordes of horned guys in DA2?

I would prefer to refer to the qunari race as "Kossith" but apparently BioWare has a problem with this. So just lowercase "q" qunari will do for referring to the qunari race. Yes, still reading you clearly.

To clear up the players confusion, Bioware, through the game, tells us that the hordes we're fighting are Tal'Vashoth. This is a bit of the Qunari perspective. These are Qunari who have already been considered rogues and outcasts by Qunari standards. We don't have to go through the process of them becoming Tal'Vashoth, that's already happened.

Correct. The Arishok clarifies that they were Tal-Vashoth. Yes.

Then, from the players perspective, we see a Qunari try to apply the Qun to Kirkwall by taking it over by force. That's just our perspective though. Bioware, through the game Dragon Age 2, doesn't go to the trouble to tell us if this is an action that can be considered "bad" or a "no-no" or "unauthorized" or "rogue". Our perspective is purposely limited. We don't see the whole picture until Dragon Age Inquisition.

Not quite. The Arishok did give a rousing speech about how it was not his role to take over Kirkwall and teach the bas the Qun, and for that they should all be grateful. So we all knew that what he was doing was not authorized.

In Dragon Age Inquisition, Bioware, through Varric, gives us the Qunari perspective. We find out we actually were witness to a big Qunari no-no. The Arishok went rogue. The Kirkwall situation made him make a mistake.

Depends on the definition of "rogue". But yes, he was unauthorized to do what he did.

So once again, in Trespasser, the perspective is again limited to that of the player. We're only allowed to see things from our point of view.

Well wait a minute. Isn't Varric's explanation also limited to the player's perspective? Also, Trespasser states that the Triumvirate had no knowledge of Viddasala's actions, and that the Ben-Hassrath disavowed her. Isn't that the same kind of explanation Varric gave?

There are no cut-scenes of Qunari leaders plotting war - quite unlike say, Dragon Age Origins, where we get to see Loghain plotting against the Hero of Ferelden.

Correct.

The lead writer, Patrick Weekes, after Trespasser came out, decided to give us the Qunari perspective.

Which Qunari perspective? And as far as I saw, he was giving us the writing team's perspective.

What was it? The Qunari were an invading force trying to attack the leadership of Thedas. Weekes even made it a special point that this was not some Qunari mistake, not some offshoot, not some rogue action.

No, that's not correct. You're mixing up various things here.

Yes the Qunari commanded by Viddasala in Trespasser were an invading force, or at least they tried to be before Solas came through and petri-fried them.

Yes the viddathari commanded by Viddasala were trying to attack the leadership of Thedas.

But at no point did Weekes say that there were no mistakes on Viddasala's part, nor on the part of the Triumvirate. He said nothing about them.

He did say that they were not an offshoot. He called them Qunari. I agree with him. I never wrote anything to the contrary.

As for "rogue action", he didn't say that either. He said making them a rogue group felt toothless. Again, I agree. They weren't a rogue group. They were official Qunari.

[Dai Grepher]

So now we don't have to wait for the next game to find out the full picture. We have both the player perspective and the Qunari perspective for Trespasser.

Which qunari perspective? The Triumvirate disavowed Viddasala, just as they did the Arishok.

Iron Bull was to maintain cover until ordered otherwise. He killed other qunari, yes, but they were expendable assets at bases already thrown into disarray by Solas.

Solas hadn't attacked the mines or the Darvaarad, but Hissrad killed Qunari there as well. And what does Solas throwing anything into disarray have to do with anything? Every Qunari Hissrad killed meant the Inquisitor getting closer to stopping Viddasala and Dragon's Breath.

It's not like the qunari never throw away lives when it suits their purpose.

And what purpose did it serve to kill those Qunari and foil this supposedly authorized opening attack on the South?

Wouldn't it make more sense to just discard one spy and let Dragon's Breath succeed, while preserving the lives of all the Qunari that one spy helped to destroy?

The ataashi was key to the whole Dragon's Breath operation, however. The Inquisiton had recovered most of the bombs, but they could always make more gaatlok so long as they had the dragon. The operation was still semi-viable.

They lost the element of surprise. That was the key. The plot was foiled. All courts would now be on the lookout for gaatlok, Ben-Hassrath spies, Qunari warriors, and warships. The dragon wasn't needed. All it was good for was making gaatlok more quickly. If all the Qunari needed was more gaatlok, they could have just resorted to the old-fashioned way. It wasn't about the gaatlok. It was the element of surprise.

At that point, the Vidddasala was desperate enough to order Hissrad into action.

She was desperate enough to order Tal-Vashoth Bull into action. What does that tell you? And if she really wanted to stop the Inquisitor from reaching the dragon, she would have given Hissrad the order back at the Vir Dirthara.

Think about it. Just the Inquisitor and maybe two allies. Against Hissrad, whom she would order to kill the Inquisitor, as well as all those Qunari, and she could have even unleashed Sareth on them too. She could have instructed all of them to throw everything they had at the Inquisitor. Throw him off the side of the library. Anything.

But no. She didn't give Hissrad the order then. Why not?

[MrObnoxiousUK]

And if it was a fake made to deflect suspicion, then why wasn't it sent to Josephine to do exactly that? Why was it balled up and discarded at the Darvaarad?

 

Simple,it was made to look like a failed destruction attempt and someone like you would say "My stars what a lucky find i must take this as proof" although i will not be as arrogant as you and state that as fact and state it as a theory.

Viddasala didn't care about killing Qunari if it meant completing Dragon's Breath. That should be obvious from all the Qunari she had sacrificed already.

There would be no justification for killing the courier. She would either say the Inquisition killed them, or she would accept responsibility along with Dragon's Breath after it was completed.

 

Now you presume to know Viddasala,for all you know each and every Qunari death could have touched her to the core.

She would accept responsibility after her mission was completed,this is pure supposition on your part and you know it.    

Yeah,there is no reason a spy would stop a courier and no way at all they would want to read high level intelligence. :/

 
I assume you don't because what you are posting here is in direct conflict with the game. I post facts straight from the game. You can't refute the facts.

 

You do not post facts,you post half-truths that do not stand up to scrutiny. Standing on a box and shouting the same thing over and over does not make it true.

Okay, mistakes happen. I'm just thinking if you were mistaken about the name of the mission, what else are you mistaken about?

 

I see what you are doing here,nice try. This is one of the oldest tricks in a debate in trying to throw doubt on the competency of someone,pretty dirty trick by the way.

Right, they have been in constant conflict for ages, so why would more attacks against Tevinter after Trespasser be worthy of note?

 

There is a difference between skirmishing and pitched battles and you know this


Any viddathari servant could have observed this, or Hissrad if he was in on it (which he would be if this were an official operation), and sent a message to anyone above them to get it called off. Dragon's Breath relied entirely on the element of surprise. That was all done once the Qunari body was found.

Yes, as we all know messages are slow and take time to be passed on,remember spies have to arrange drop off points and make sure they are not followed and the message then gets passed up the line,stop acting like it gets sent faster than email.

By the time the message arrived the Dragon's breath could of been at the point of no return!

I'm talking about the message traveling up the chain of command to Viddasala, not to the Triumvirate on down. And even if the message couldn't beat the Inquisitor to the elvhen ruins, the mere fact that the Inquisitor shows up there should have been enough for all those Qunari to realize the plan was a bust.

 

They were at the point of no return,the Inquisitor was another target of the Dragon's flame and agents were already out placing barrels of gatlok all across the Southern nations,it was too late to stop,once the Qunari ball was rolled down the hill it was not stopping until it hit something.

Instead they just run out and start attacking the Inquisitor and Hissrad if he's there. They didn't even try to talk to the Inquisitor or Hissrad to see what they knew first.

 

If a target of Dragon's breath hit list turned up armed to the teeth and in a group of equally armed people  you attack him or invite him in for tea and cake? In fact if any trespasser turned up at your secret based would you not be inclined to kill first ask later? 


But I don't believe Viddasala. That's my point. Viddasala is deceptive, but we're to believe her when she says Par Vollen is involved in this? No. As for Fen'Harel killing the main invasion force, that is just your guess. But even if true, that would only be the forces in the eluvian locations. An invasion would come from the sea via warships. There were no warships, no landing parties, no base camps set up, no warriors on the shores of the Southern nations. Even the spies that had infiltrated didn't start attacking.

 

Make your mind up, either you believe her or you don't. Just because you don't see something does not mean it doesn't happen,i did not see the Orlesian civil war happen but we do know they fought many battlles.

Spies don't tend to blow cover unless they have no choice.

Again just because you saw no warships does not mean those were not there,same goes with armies.

I merely asked you a question. If you can't answer it logically the fault is yours not mine.

Don't use ad hominen on me, you are above it

The Triumvirate would not gamble with something as important as invading the South. Either they would commit to it no matter what, or they would wait until they were ready to take the South. Not only was Dragon's Breath a complete gamble, and a bad one at that, but Par Vollen wasn't ready to attack the South. They didn't have the forces to take and hold the South.

 

You do not speak for the Triumvirate,so do not act like you wrote them and know what they would do.You do not have a list of the total number of soldiers under their command or war materials stockpiled,you accuse me of guessing and you are guilty of the same yourself.

Also, they wouldn't need to recall the Qunari in Trespasser. All they would need to do is explain their presence in the elvhen ruins. They would simply be telling them to abort the attack on the South and destroy all evidence that they were planning to attack the South. At that point, all agents revert to their previous roles of just being spies. The Qunari in the ruins would just say they are there to seek out and destroy dangerous elvhen magic.

 

This is the biggest load of drivel i have seen so far,all of the above is so full of holes it be placed between two pieces of bread and eating with ham and pickles.

 

Wrong. They failed to stop the Inquisitor every step of the way. I'm claiming the Qunari are NOT stupid children. I'm claiming that Dragon's Breath was all Viddasala's idea, and she was incompetent. That is why the plan was just a massive failure on every level. When the Triumvirate invades, it will be a bloodbath.

 

Failure does not make them or her incompetent,sometimes you are just outclassed and luck turns against you,Claiming something does not make it true,to get the material she got to get Dragon's breath started she would of needed approval from the highest levels.

Because Solas states that she was his agent, and Solas was against the Qunari. Also Weekes states that she was originally meant to be the Inquisition's spy, but was later changed to be Solas' spy. So no, she wasn't working with the Qunari at all. She's the one who exposed the Qunari plot, remember?

 

Yes,he said my agent,that does not mean he did not say  "join the inquisition" and then say "there are Qunari elements here join them too" ,she is still his agent and is now a TRIPLE agent,see how that works.

[The Baconer]

Hence my opinion that he should have been able to see that Viddasala was unauthorized. But Weekes thought differently. Not going to argue with him on it (though I have a theory on why he did it this way).

 

I don't care about your theorycrafting. 

 

 

He was a spy for who exactly? And what makes you think he was lying to the Inquisitor in Trespasser?

 

Well, the fact that his title is "Liar" and that he would later try to kill you. Why would I care about Bull claiming that "Viddasalla should never do x" or "Arigena would never let this much gaatlok out blah blah" when he's in on their plan?

 

 In order to believe your version of events would, on my part, require the obfuscation of plain language, doublethink, and that the writers would break Bull's character because they needed a twist. Or I could simply believe that the Qunari are capricious, deceitful, double-dealing schemers. As they always have been. 

[thats1evildude]

Solas hadn't attacked the mines or the Darvaarad, but Hissrad killed Qunari there as well. And what does Solas throwing anything into disarray have to do with anything? Every Qunari Hissrad killed meant the Inquisitor getting closer to stopping Viddasala and Dragon's Breath.

 

Incorrect. He had attacked the Deep Roads base. The instant death flames in each location were created by Solas, and there were instant death flames in the Deep Roads.

 

My point is that the Inquisitor was, for the most part, just mopping up after Solas. The bases were compromised anyway; the elven ruins in particular was overrun by ancient spirits, and those qunari were basically all but lost. There was value in having Hissrad remain close to the Inquisitor's side, collecting information on the Inquisition and possibly this agent of Fen'Harel.

 

But the Inquisitor was taking the offensive at the Darvaarad. They could afford to lose some qunari warriors, but not the ataashi. So the Viddasala played her Hissrad card in attack mode, because it was make or break for Dragon's Breath.

 

They lost the element of surprise. That was the key. The plot was foiled. All courts would now be on the lookout for gaatlok, Ben-Hassrath spies, Qunari warriors, and warships. The dragon wasn't needed. All it was good for was making gaatlok more quickly.

 

Oh no, the plot was still viable. The Animal-Handler's Notebook at the Daarvarad indicates that she would be called on to deliver more gaatlok to the Winter Palace. Even after the other gaatlok barrels were found, the qunari were going to keep trying with different spies, using humans instead of elves.

 

http://dragonage.wik...ndler's_Logbook

 

The ataashi was needed to manufacture large amounts of gaatlok on a tight schedule. Without the ataashi, the plot was basically foiled.