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[Rel Fexive]

Yrch. So many walls of text for every tiny little rebuttal.

The longer the essay, the more deluded the opinion and the more tortuous the "logic" required to make their stance clear.... a stance that inevitably no one else will ever be won over to.

[Addictress]

Yrch. So many walls of text for every tiny little rebuttal.

The longer the essay, the more deluded the opinion and the more tortuous the "logic" required to make their stance clear.... a stance that inevitably no one else will ever be won over to.

I like browsing the walls of text.

It makes me feel like this fandom is fat with substance somehow.

[ModernAcademic]

Hmm... so you're saying that we need more information and perhaps a chance to become Viddathari to actually evaluate their culture... yet you've already decided that the Qunari are manipulative and treat outsiders the way they do?

 

Hmmm... bit of an inconsistency here, wouldn't you say?

 

I mean, you can say that Sten and Bull (or the Arishok, or Gatt) aren't reliable sources and all, but that doesn't change the fact that they have given us a decent insight into how a Qunari views the world. How people treat others, after all - and especially when they're outside their comfort zones - speak volumes abut themselves as well as where they come from.

 

Also - saying things like "Sten strives to show to the Warden only what HE thinks an outsider should see when contemplating a Qunari warrior" doesn't really change much from my initial point... though I wouldn't say it's much of truth there. I mean.. was Sten's aim to show Warden that a Qunari warrior is oftentimes very confused by things he's unfamiliar with? Because that's what Sten often is.

 

As for Bull - saying that "Bull is trained to be an agent and a liar" is a vast oversimplification: yes, Bull might has been trained as an agent and a liar, but you can see just how uncomfortable he is with it, up to a point that he basically adopts Solas' shtick of lying by omission and saying things that are an actual truth, only masked in a way that people don't really make much of it, among other things. And he's like that at least up until we decide he should sacrifice Chargers (a quest to which, coincidentally, we get to only by exhausting some of his dialogue options about Qunari or Ben-Hassrath). He's visibly upset at  Gatt for revealing before a person he began to see as a friend that Hissrad means a liar and before getting to Stom coast you can totally see how uncomfortable he appears to be with an idea of Qunari not being "out there", but marching here and offering an alliance he is suspicious of himself.

 

That can tell us a lot of things. Not full picture, but enough to tell something about the Qunari.

 

1- No, it isn't inconsistent. Once you become Viddathari, you gain full access to the Qun and will be taught how to walk the path of the Qun. You're accepted as one of them, you become a piece of the whole. 

If you try to leave, you're declared Tal-Vashoth.

 

It's simple enough to understand.

 

 

2- We have had some first-hand experience interacting with them and they have shared a bit about life under the Qun - Bull more than Sten -, but so far we know next to NOTHING about the Qun itself.

 

The only thing we have are bits of information, scattered across the 3 games. The legend of the Ashkari, the Antaam, the Tamassran, the lack of families, the rigid adhesion to the law, etc. And that's the only reliable source we have so far to pass any judgement on the Qunari. 

 

The Qunari are an insular, isolated, xenophobic society who shuns all outsiders. They mistrust the rest of the world and have a specific policy all Qunari must follow when dealing with foreigners. Which is why meeting a Qunari is different from meeting an Orlesian, for example. 

Everyone knows about Orlesian culture. Orlesians themselves flaunt their origin to everyone, since they're proud of belonging to an empire.

That's not the same thing with the Qunari. They do their best to hide the inner workings of their society from bas, who are unworthy of learning about the Qun. 

That's an intrinsic value of their society. They learn that since they are born. They learn not to reveal crucial information about their culture to outsiders. And since the very first game, we're nothing but an outsider of the Qunari society. So everything you know about the Qunari might be mistaken or downright wrong, since you are only marginally aware of what kind of people they truly are. 

 

 

 

Another comparison to illustrate the point above: a Tevinter ally in Inquisition.

 

Just as we thought the leaders of Tevinters were all Magisters and evil blood mages, we also think all Qunari think alike and behave much like Sten or Bull. And then we met Dorian, a member of the upper class who isn't a Magister and doesn't use blood magic. 

 

And then, suddenly, you have people who learned to hate Tevinter on principle because of their romance with Fenris or because all we knew about Tevinter so far is that mages there were bad...only to see that hatred all but crumble when they met ONE tevinter that was different. And then people started talking about there being good tevinters and bad ones.

 

It's the case of the black swan. All it takes is one exception to the rule for people to change their mind about a society. The same thing might happen with Par Vollen and the Qunari when DA 4 comes out. 

 

 

3- About Bull:

 

I agree with everything you said. The oversimplification by showing he was trained to be a liar was just to illustrate how the Qunari handle the exchange of information with the rest of the world with the utmost care, to the point they actually train their people to downright lie about crucial elements of Qunari society, politics and whatever other element that the Qun demands. 

 

So to sum it up, you can never trust a Qunari when he talks about his own people. He might be lying to your face and you won't know it. And the reason he does that is because their leaders are overprotective of their society.

Why is that? We have no idea so far. But I hope DA 4 will allow us to see Par Vollen up close and have some reliable information on the intrinsic workings of Qunari society. Only then can we derive a solid and impartial conclusion about who they are as a people. That's all I'm trying to defend here.

[In Exile]

We can guess easily at why the Qun is so very insular - because you can't maintain that level of a control on a society with a free exchange of ideas and values. 

[Dai Grepher]

Simple,it was made to look like a failed destruction attempt and someone like you would say "My stars what a lucky find i must take this as proof" although i will not be as arrogant as you and state that as fact and state it as a theory.

Now you presume to know Viddasala,for all you know each and every Qunari death could have touched her to the core.
She would accept responsibility after her mission was completed,this is pure supposition on your part and you know it.    
Yeah,there is no reason a spy would stop a courier and no way at all they would want to read high level intelligence. :/

You do not post facts,you post half-truths that do not stand up to scrutiny. Standing on a box and shouting the same thing over and over does not make it true.

I see what you are doing here,nice try. This is one of the oldest tricks in a debate in trying to throw doubt on the competency of someone,pretty dirty trick by the way.

There is a difference between skirmishing and pitched battles and you know this

Yes, as we all know messages are slow and take time to be passed on,remember spies have to arrange drop off points and make sure they are not followed and the message then gets passed up the line,stop acting like it gets sent faster than email.
By the time the message arrived the Dragon's breath could of been at the point of no return!

They were at the point of no return,the Inquisitor was another target of the Dragon's flame and agents were already out placing barrels of gatlok all across the Southern nations,it was too late to stop,once the Qunari ball was rolled down the hill it was not stopping until it hit something.

If a target of Dragon's breath hit list turned up armed to the teeth and in a group of equally armed people  you attack him or invite him in for tea and cake? In fact if any trespasser turned up at your secret based would you not be inclined to kill first ask later? 

Make your mind up, either you believe her or you don't. Just because you don't see something does not mean it doesn't happen,i did not see the Orlesian civil war happen but we do know they fought many battlles.
Spies don't tend to blow cover unless they have no choice.
Again just because you saw no warships does not mean those were not there,same goes with armies.

Don't use ad hominen on me, you are above it

You do not speak for the Triumvirate,so do not act like you wrote them and know what they would do.You do not have a list of the total number of soldiers under their command or war materials stockpiled,you accuse me of guessing and you are guilty of the same yourself.

This is the biggest load of drivel i have seen so far,all of the above is so full of holes it be placed between two pieces of bread and eating with ham and pickles.

Failure does not make them or her incompetent,sometimes you are just outclassed and luck turns against you,Claiming something does not make it true,to get the material she got to get Dragon's breath started she would of needed approval from the highest levels.

Yes,he said my agent,that does not mean he did not say  "join the inquisition" and then say "there are Qunari elements here join them too" ,she is still his agent and is now a TRIPLE agent,see how that works.

For that to work Viddasala would have needed to intercept Josephine's letter, assume that you would make it out of the Vir Dirthara alive, assume that you would make it to the Darvaarad even though you didn't have a keystone or passphrase, and she would have needed to assume you would look in that room and find a balled up paper that looked like garbage. This is her deception? Why not just send the forged letter to complete the deception? And of course she didn't expect you to reach the Darvaarad. That's why she didn't have guards posted around the eluvian.

She threw the remainder at Solas, even though he was petrifying them one after another. At no time did she call any of them off. She fought to the last, then killed herself by attacking Solas. If this had been an official operation, she would have taken Solas' offer of mercy as a chance to tactically return with a report on Solas' powers. But no, it wasn't authorized. She knew she could not return to Par Vollen.
There were only two options. Blame the courier's death on the Inquisition, or take responsibility. If she were caught operating without authorization, and wasting Qunari lives, then accepting responsibility for killing the courier would not make her situation any worse.
It was from the Triumvirate to the Inquisition. She had no business reading it. Interrupting its intended delivery only defies the will of the Triumvirate.

I repeat the facts because they keep being ignored.

Just suggesting that if you got something as simple as the name wrong, what makes you think you know the more intricate workings of the plan?

Yes, skirmishes and pitched battles. Those have also been going on for ages. So what does that have to do with Viddasala being authorized or not?

Stop posting strawman arguments. I didn't write that it's faster than email, just that it would have reached them quickly via the viddathari spies. The Qunari came crashing through the yard, then went into a nearby house, and died there. The body was discovered some time after by the double agent, who then informed Leliana first, and then went to inform the Inquisitor. After the council was given a recess, then the Inquisitor examined the body with Leliana, and then followed the blood trail up the side of the palace and through the eluvian. Then it took time to actually reach the Qunari. A message could have reached them by then.
The point of no return is lighting the fuses.

The point was to not get caught. Aborting the plan was the only logical option if this had been an official operation. You don't move forward with a covert operation if there is an Agent of Fen'Harel running around wrecking your stuff. Besides, they could have just delayed and lied to the Inquisitor while all courts in the South other than Halamshiral were bombed. Going after the council first, where the Inquisitor had access to information on Dragon's Breath was another foolish move. Strike the courts that have no idea FIRST, then go after the Inquisitor. But no. There was no coherent plan. No delegation of movements. It was all Viddasala, and she stretched herself too thin over too many projects.

If you are running a covert operation, you invite them in for tea and cake, especially if you have a strong and healthy alliance with that person. You find out what they know. You talk to your agent on the inside, which according to your side Hissrad was in on it. And no, if a Qunari showed up at Halamshiral the Inquisition would ask why they are there.

I never wrote that I believed Viddasala. I wrote that she made a claim that was proven to be a lie. It isn't that I didn't see the troops, it's that no one in the game saw them. That proves there was no invasion attempt by Par Vollen.
But spies do attack when a certain covert operation instructs them to do so.
No one in the game saw the armies, because they were not there. The South did not declare war on Par Vollen, nor did they perceive Dragon's Breath as a violation of the Llomeryn Accords. The Triumvirate even asked the Divine for assistance in toppling Tevinter.

That wasn't ad hominem. What you posted toward me was a baseless accusation.

I'm not guessing. Par Vollen doesn't have the numbers. They can't even take Tevinter. There is no way they can take the South, let alone hold it. That's why Hissrad says an invasion now would be impossible.

Why? Point out one hole in that explanation.

Viddasala was so ignorant that she thought the Inquisition was working with the Agent of Fen'Harel. This proves she was not authorized, because the Triumvirate knew the Inquisition had nothing to do with the agent. Hissrad could confirm that. And if Viddasala had been smart, she would have delayed the attack on Halamshiral until after all other targets were hit, since the Inquisitor was the only one investigating the Qunari presence. No one else knew anything about it at that point. Nope. Viddasala was stupid, and she was the only leader of the operation. John Epler confirmed this. Weekes also confirms that Viddasala's plan to feed lyrium to saarebas was a bad idea.

Your idea that she was a triple agent is nothing but speculation. Solas alerted her to the Qunari body, as he's the one who attacked him, and he knew about the gaatlok barrel, which proves he directed her to find it. Weekes confirms she is a double agent in the Inquisition. She was originally meant to be your loyal agent, but was then changed to be Solas' spy in order to convey that the Inquisition had been infiltrated.

I don't care about your theorycrafting.

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So my theory is that Weekes wanted to make those players who let the Chargers die feel some sort of punishment for their choice. Like to indicate that those who let the Chargers die and let Bull remain Qunari made the "wrong" choice. If you let Weekes' pet characters in the Chargers die, then Weekes is taking his Bull and going home.

Well, the fact that his title is "Liar"

So then everything he says is a lie because his title is "liar"? No, sometimes he lies. Sometimes he doesn't.

and that he would later try to kill you.

Ah, so actions determine his honesty? So then what was he doing when he was helping foil Dragon's Breath? Was he lying to Viddasala and the Triumvirate that allegedly authorized him to be a spy? Was he free to lie his way into the mines to destroy the lyrium to saarebas operation? Was he lying when he ignored Viddasala's order to kill the Inquisitor in the Vir Dirthara? Was he lying to his fellow Qunari when he helped the Inquisitor break in to the Darvaarad? Inquiring minds want to know.

Why would I care about Bull claiming that "Viddasalla should never do x" or "Arigena would never let this much gaatlok out blah blah" when he's in on their plan?

Because Tal-Vashoth Bull says the same thing. Or is he lying to the Inquisitor too?

In order to believe your version of events would, on my part, require the obfuscation of plain language, doublethink, and that the writers would break Bull's character because they needed a twist.

That's exactly what they did though, and Weekes admits it. They needed something with teeth. They needed to "bring the feels" as they too often say.

Or I could simply believe that the Qunari are capricious, deceitful, double-dealing schemers. As they always have been.

Double-dealing their own people though? And for being deceitful schemers, they sure rushed out of that elvhen ruin to attack Hissrad fast enough. No words. No signals. No attempt to ask him what the Inquisitor knew or didn't know. Nothing like that. Yeah, real clever those Ben-Hassrath. Attack someone who thinks you're their ally instead of luring them in and obtaining information first.

[Dai Grepher]

Incorrect. He had attacked the Deep Roads base. The instant death flames in each location were created by Solas, and there were instant death flames in the Deep Roads.

Maybe he laid down some flames in that one spot, or maybe that fire was collected and brought there. But even if that was him, the lyrium mining operation itself was still up and running. It made no sense for Hissrad to help destroy the mines if he was in on it.

My point is that the Inquisitor was, for the most part, just mopping up after Solas. The bases were compromised anyway; the elven ruins in particular was overrun by ancient spirits, and those qunari were basically all but lost.

No. If you hang back and let the Qunari fight the spirits, they defeat them all and then turn on you. Even if that weren't true, it makes no sense for Hissrad to kill them just because they were being killed anyway. The point is to stop the Inquisitor from learning of the plot, not help him learn of it.

There was value in having Hissrad remain close to the Inquisitor's side, collecting information on the Inquisition and possibly this agent of Fen'Harel.

They knew the agent was Solas before all this. If Hissrad was in on it he could have confirmed that the Inquisition was not working for Solas, which Viddasala erroneously believed. What's the point of collecting information when none of it was used? At no point did the Qunari under Viddasala actually set a trap for the Inquisitor. At no point did they correct their mistakes. At no point did they try to reach out to the Inquisitor and attempt to deceive him into believing something else to thrown him off Dragon's Breath.

But the Inquisitor was taking the offensive at the Darvaarad. They could afford to lose some qunari warriors, but not the ataashi. So the Viddasala played her Hissrad card in attack mode, because it was make or break for Dragon's Breath.

Oh, attack mode huh? I know all about attack mode, as my username suggests. So then why didn't she flip her trap card face up in the Vir Dirthara and take control of Hissrad when she had a field spell in effect? That was the best time to do it. This was before the Darvaard. This would have put the Inquisitor and his two possible allies into a battle phase against Hissrad and all those other Qunari, including Sareth.

Also, Dragon's Breath was over the second the Inquisitor learned of the gaatlok barrels being placed in the Winter Palace. What Viddasala should have done was hold off on Halamshiral until all the other courts had been blown up. Attacking the palace first only exposed the plot to the Inquisitor, who was the only one investigating it, who then informed all other courts which had no idea.

Oh no, the plot was still viable. The Animal-Handler's Notebook at the Daarvarad indicates that she would be called on to deliver more gaatlok to the Winter Palace. Even after the other gaatlok barrels were found, the qunari were going to keep trying with different spies, using humans instead of elves.

Which would make no sense, and would only shows how foolish Viddasala was, because the Winter Palace and all other courts were by then on the lookout for gaatlok barrels placed in vulnerable areas. It wasn't a matter of stock or what race of people were planting them. It was a matter of access at that point. They were cut off from their targets. The only thing more gaatlok would do is aid an all out assault on the South, which the Triumvirate never planned. Viddasala was just a desperate nut who didn't know when she was beaten, not even when Solas wiped out her remaining forces.

However, the logbook doesn't indicate a time frame for this. The message could have been written before the plot was uncovered. See bottom of post.

The ataashi was needed to manufacture large amounts of gaatlok on a tight schedule. Without the ataashi, the plot was basically foiled.

Basically? You think it was still possible even after dispatching the dragon? Even Viddasala didn't think that. She claimed they would have to take the way of blades (which was also a deception).

Now, the logbook.

The first half of this logbook appears to be notes on the care and feeding of animals in a Free Marcher lord's manor. After that, it shifts into practice phrases in Qunlat. Later, it begins again with the following:

This shows that the log has been there a while.

Beast presents chafing around limbs and tail, likely from attempts to use chains. While its natural strength remains, muscles are slack from confinement. Taardathras said she initially tried drugging the beast, but the amount required to keep it sedated changed the quality of its venom so that it was no longer useful in producing gaatlok. She says fire has kept it under control, while the heated panels keep it in a state of comfortable drowsiness.

Again, proves this has been there a while. The dragon is half dead by the time we get there.

Taardathras is not as good at deception as she thinks she is. She does not like what we are doing to the beast. She calls it Ataashi, which means something like "great thing," and she repeats sayings from the Qun to herself when she extracts the venom.

Proof that even the Qunari under Viddasala are having their doubts about her.

I do not disagree with her. I saw enough harm done to innocent beasts at my lord's sneering commands. The beast, the Ataashi, deserves better than the pry bars and needles we use upon it each time we drain its venom gland.

Documents a time when the venom was being extracted for the gaatlok.

Taardathras says I may be needed at the Winter Palace. It is likely that some view elves with suspicion, thanks to these attacks by the agent of Fen'Harel, but a human woman may still pass unnoticed among the servants. She says I may be asked to deliver more gaatlok in different containers. She says that it could be dangerous, and that if I do not return, most will assume I am dead.

She refers to the attacks by the agent. Those with suspicion probably means the Qunari, since they are the targets of the attacks. It also makes sense if they think any of the elven viddathari are giving information to the agent. So a human woman will still be able to blend in among the servants.

First, it states she may be asked to deliver more gaatlok in different containers. Not that she was asked. So the fact she might be asked could mean anything. Some alternate attack now that Dragon's Breath was foiled? Delivering gaatlok in different containers could also mean anything. If this woman was helping make gaatlok, then the final product would be in a different container than what she is used to. That is, the different container would be the gaatlok barrels. She states it could be dangerous to deliver this. Or it could mean gaatlok in a different container than the barrels we saw. In which case, an alternate plan of attack now that Dragon's Breath is foiled.

As I said, Taardathras is not as good at deception as she thinks she is.

But she is right. I did not join the Qun for this.

Another dissatisfied convert. So she knows that the mission would be a suicide mission. It is also quite telling that this convert sees these actions as not what she signed up for. Meaning, the Qun she was taught is nothing like what Viddasala is putting them all through for this operation. This is just like how Jerran was smart enough to see that Viddasala was acting against the Qun.

[midnight tea]

So my theory is that Weekes wanted to make those players who let the Chargers die feel some sort of punishment for their choice. Like to indicate that those who let the Chargers die and let Bull remain Qunari made the "wrong" choice. If you let Weekes' pet characters in the Chargers die, then Weekes is taking his Bull and going home.

 

Dude... your theory has been all but shattered by what Weekes said in the interview. What's more, he says that at the beginning they've tried to avoid killing him - this is why they've toyed with the idea that Viddasala's team is a rogue group. Eventually they've decided that no, it's not a rogue group and since it's not a rogue group it naturally follows that Qunverted Bull with betray Inquisitor 

[Dai Grepher]

Dude... your theory has been all but shattered by what Weekes said in the interview. What's more, he says that at the beginning they've tried to avoid killing him - this is why they've toyed with the idea that Viddasala's team is a rogue group. Eventually they've decided that no, it's not a rogue group and since it's not a rogue group it naturally follows that Qunverted Bull with betray Inquisitor 

Weekes and Epler confirmed that Viddasala was unauthorized in the conference video. But you are free to disagree with the writers. I have no problem with that.

I know what he said, but the theory I posted to Baconer is why Weekes had him die in the first place.

[Almostfaceman]

Weekes and Epler confirmed that Viddasala was unauthorized in the conference video. 

 

This would be you, lying. But feel free to post the part of the conference video that supports your argument. 

[MrObnoxiousUK]

This discussion is like an Ouroboros it will never end and to be frank no new ideas are being advanced it is the same tired and rehashed arguments.

Right now it resembles a petty playground fight so i am bowing out of it.

Only way it will end is if an official writer draws a line in the sand and read the lore riot act.

Maybe the best way to end this is with a vote like civilized people do at the end of a debate.

[pdusen]

There is no point at all in continuing to argue with this guy. When new evidence appears that proves him wrong, he just does a mental backflip and acts as though it proves him right.

Of course it irks me that he will just declare victory when people stop arguing with him, but in the end, no one cares about the opinion of a single delusional person.

[robertthebard]

Weekes and Epler confirmed that Viddasala was unauthorized in the conference video. But you are free to disagree with the writers. I have no problem with that.

I know what he said, but the theory I posted to Baconer is why Weekes had him die in the first place.

Actually, Weekes directly contradicts this statement in the article posted in the OP here. Of course, denial is a strong thing to overcome, and "But my Qunari wouldn't do that" is the purest form of denial.

BF: How did the possibility of Iron Bull's death in Tresspasser come about?

PW: Okay, this one was tough. Because... The bad news on having a character die in the game, as a possibility means that you are inherently limiting how much they can ever appear in the future. You know. It's not a hard limition; we had Ash or Kaidan die in Mass Effect 1, and still have them as full squad mates in Mass Effect 3. So it's not like that's a hard line, but whatever you say 'hey this character can die if this happens in the game', it makes it a lot harder to bring them back in the future. So it was definitely something we thought long and hard about. That said, when we got to the Qunari, we kicked around different ways to do it. We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it. And in that case, the only reasonable outcome was that if you hadn't gotten Iron Bull out of the Qun, it made no sense for him to do anything but turn on you.

It literally states, right there, that a Qun loyal IB will obey her because she's not representing the offshoot of an offshoot. That they're not rogue, because they felt like that would have been toothless, and tired. Yet, in order to believe what you have presented, we have to contradict this statement. The two are diametrically opposed, in other words, they are the exact opposite of each other, and therefore, both cannot be true. Given the quoted statement here, by Weekes, I'm going to have to dismiss your claims out of hand, because they contradict what's presented here. I'm not basing my decision on some fanfic, or out of some blind loyalty to the Qun, but on actual empirical evidence, presented by someone in the know. Nothing that you have presented, any where, is officially supported, in fact, it's officially refuted, right here in this quote.

I understand that this is the BSN, and "But my theory requires XX to be true or it falls apart" is the main argument for any theory, no matter how much the in game evidence says otherwise, or simply doesn't reference at all, but in this case, we have clear and concise evidence to the contrary. Dragon's Breath was a precursor to open war. It failed, leaving a unified front of, at least Orlais, Ferelden, and the Chantry ready to go, so they disavowed her actions, because they knew with those factions united, along with the Inquisition, they were going to lose. If the Qunari were really as weak as they'd have to be in order for your theory to work, they'd have never been a threat in the first place.

[QueenCrow]

Related to topic, now that we've been spoon fed confirmation that the Viddasala was acting for the Qun - 

 

Exalted marches are religious crusades by the Chantry.  Though we players have not yet participated in or experienced an exalted march, we got to read about the one via codexes against the elves of the Dales when in the Dales during DA:I.  It seems basically a repent and convert or die situation.  The only other option is to flee and try to hide.

 

Question:

 

For those who care to entertain thinking about it, what is the difference between the religious crusade of an exalted march and the Qun invasion or war foreshadowed in DA:I.  Is it just religion?  Gaatlock IEDs?  And, perhaps, who is on home field this time?

 

P.S.  Trivia:  According to lore, the most recent exalted marches have been against the Qun. 

[Reznore57]

Related to topic, now that we've been spoon fed confirmation that the Viddasala was acting for the Qun - 

 

Exalted marches are religious crusades by the Chantry.  Though we players have not yet participated in or experienced an exalted march, we got to read about the one via codexes against the elves of the Dales when in the Dales during DA:I.  It seems basically a repent and convert or die situation.  The only other option is to flee and try to hide.

 

Question:

 

For those who care to entertain thinking about it, what is the difference between the religious crusade of an exalted march and the Qun invasion or war foreshadowed in DA:I.  Is it just religion?  Gaatlock IEDs?  And, perhaps, who is on home field this time?

 

P.S.  Trivia:  According to lore, the most recent exalted marches have been against the Qun. 

 

There's not a lot of difference in the act of war and conquest , except the Chantry just wants you to convert and pay lip service to the Maker , the Qun completly change people's way of life.

You're evaluted , you get a new job , family units are torn apart etc..

[Dai Grepher]

This would be you, lying. But feel free to post the part of the conference video that supports your argument.

So here is my proof:

Game Developers Conference
Moscone Center San Francisco, CA
March 14-18, 2016 . Expo March 14-18

23:33 Epler - Tension graphing. Low tension x3, then all of a sudden you're fighting the "Qunari leader".

John Epler explains the graph showing how much tension there was in the DLC at each stage. He points out three places with low tension, the Deep Roads included, and then refers to the stage in which the tension jumps and we are fighting the "Qunari leader". He is clearly referring to Viddasala and identifying her as the Qunari's leader. This proves that she was the top commander of this mission, and that she was alone in this command. Epler didn't call her "one of the Qunari leaders", he called her THE Qunari leader.

Now, we know from the game that she is nothing more than the head of the Ben-Hassrath's Dangerous Purpose branch. She is not a leader among the Qunari people. She is an agent. Calling her the leader proves that Dragon's Breath was her idea and hers alone. She had no other agents lateral or above her to direct the mission. She was the only high ranking official there. No other high ranking Qunari agent was involved. Not any other priest of the Ben-Hassrath, not the Ariqun, not the other members of the Triumvirate.

This proves Viddasala was unauthorized. In an authorized operation, she would not have been the leader.


26:19 Weekes - The saarebas are suppressed by the Qunari culture. The Qunari in Trespasser give lyrium to saarebas. They're making super-weapons. Taking parched mages and hooking them up to a fire-hose.

This is objectively a really bad idea for the Qunari. But that is the kind of short term gain/long term loss, dangerous deal with the devil that characters in the Dragon Age universe make all the time.

And here is Weekes' 100% irrefutable confirmation that Viddasala was unauthorized. He differentiates the Qunari in Trespasser from the rest of Qunari culture. Separating the two. What the Qunari in Trespasser were directed to do is the exact opposite of what Qunari culture has taught since the culture was founded. The Qunari culture suppresses saarebas to magic. Viddasala and those she ordered around were immersing saarebas in magic. This directly contradicts the Qun and Qunari culture. The Triumvirate is confirmed to have no part in this by extension.

Weekes also confirms this is a bad idea, but is the type of deal that DA characters make all the time. By referring to characters, Weekes confirms this is Viddasala alone. This is not the Triumvirate as a collective making this choice. It is only Viddasala.

This discussion is like an Ouroboros it will never end and to be frank no new ideas are being advanced it is the same tired and rehashed arguments.

See, you can't refute a single point I made. You can't even respond to the counterpoint I made against your idea that Viddasala forged the Triumvirate letter and then just left it balled up in the Darvaarad for the Inquisitor to stumble upon.

Right now it resembles a petty playground fight so i am bowing out of it.
Only way it will end is if an official writer draws a line in the sand and read the lore riot act.
Maybe the best way to end this is with a vote like civilized people do at the end of a debate.

Votes do not determine what is fact. I posted statements from Weekes and Epler confirming that Viddasala was unauthorized. None of you can refute them.

There is no point at all in continuing to argue with this guy. When new evidence appears that proves him wrong, he just does a mental backflip and acts as though it proves him right.

I posted the statements of the writers that shows them identifying Viddasala as acting on her own in defiance of the Qunari society. These are facts you can't refute.

Either you accept the word of the writers or you don't.

Of course it irks me that he will just declare victory when people stop arguing with him, but in the end, no one cares about the opinion of a single delusional person.

I have the statements of the writers. I have the game facts. I have logic. That is why I won the debate, not because people stop arguing eventually.

[Dai Grepher]

Actually, Weekes directly contradicts this statement in the article posted in the OP here.

No he doesn't. You are seeing words in his statements that are not there.
 

It literally states, right there, that a Qun loyal IB will obey her because she's not representing the offshoot of an offshoot. That they're not rogue, because they felt like that would have been toothless, and tired.

What you keep forgetting is that no one has ever argued against that point. The point is that being a real Qunari who is part of the Qunari government does not automatically mean that you are authorized to take certain actions. Viddasala was a real Qunari taking actions that the Triumvirate was never made aware of. Nothing Weekes said in the OP interview contradicts this.
 

Yet, in order to believe what you have presented, we have to contradict this statement.

No you don't. You are just trying to cloud the issue because I proved that the interview does not disprove the fact that Viddasala was unauthorized.
 

The two are diametrically opposed, in other words, they are the exact opposite of each other, and therefore, both cannot be true. Given the quoted statement here, by Weekes, I'm going to have to dismiss your claims out of hand, because they contradict what's presented here.

No they don't. My statements are perfectly consistent with what Weekes said in the interview and in the conference.
 

I'm not basing my decision on some fanfic, or out of some blind loyalty to the Qun, but on actual empirical evidence, presented by someone in the know. Nothing that you have presented, any where, is officially supported, in fact, it's officially refuted, right here in this quote.

Weekes' statements support me as being correct.
 

I understand that this is the BSN, and "But my theory requires XX to be true or it falls apart" is the main argument for any theory, no matter how much the in game evidence says otherwise, or simply doesn't reference at all, but in this case, we have clear and concise evidence to the contrary. Dragon's Breath was a precursor to open war. It failed, leaving a unified front of, at least Orlais, Ferelden, and the Chantry ready to go, so they disavowed her actions, because they knew with those factions united, along with the Inquisition, they were going to lose. If the Qunari were really as weak as they'd have to be in order for your theory to work, they'd have never been a threat in the first place.

This is nothing but your baseless speculation.

The issue is simple. Allow me to clarify it for you.

Viddasala can be an official agent, and the Qunari under her can be real Qunari and not a rogue group, but she can still be unauthorized to do what she did.

You are confusing "not a rogue group" with "authorized by the Triumvirate". Weekes did not say she was authorized or that the Triumvirate knew anything about it.

Think of it this way. If Sten had been a party companion in DA2, and he accompanied you to meet with the Arishok in the final part of Act 2, the Arishok's order to attack would have been followed by Sten despite the fact that the Arishok was not authorized to attack Kirkwall. It's the same case with Hissrad.
 

Related to topic, now that we've been spoon fed confirmation that the Viddasala was acting for the Qun -

Midnight Tea posted a link to a video of a conference in which Weekes and Epler confirm that Viddasala was not authorized.

Now, she may have been acting for the Qun in her own mind, but the Triumvirate did not authorize or approve of her actions. The game clearly states that they disavowed her, as did the Ben-Hassrath.
 

Exalted marches are religious crusades by the Chantry. Though we players have not yet participated in or experienced an exalted march, we got to read about the one via codexes against the elves of the Dales when in the Dales during DA:I. It seems basically a repent and convert or die situation. The only other option is to flee and try to hide.

It isn't necessarily to convert. The last Exalted March was against the Qunari, and it merely pushed them back. It did not convert them to the Chant. In fact, even some human converts to the Qun were not converted from the Qun by the Exalted March.
 

Question:

For those who care to entertain thinking about it, what is the difference between the religious crusade of an exalted march and the Qun invasion or war foreshadowed in DA:I. Is it just religion? Gaatlock IEDs? And, perhaps, who is on home field this time?

P.S. Trivia: According to lore, the most recent exalted marches have been against the Qun.

I think it's obvious. The Exalted March isn't always to convert. Sometimes it's just to put down a threat to the people or the Chantry. The Qun is a philosophy that the Qunari believe can be spread by the sword.

[robertthebard]

No he doesn't. You are seeing words in his statements that are not there.

No, I'm seeing exactly what he said. You, on the other hand, are not. You, for example, do not understand the concept of "project lead". For example, Mr. Weekes is now lead writer for DA, does this mean that he owns the license, or does it mean that BW has assigned him to be the lead writer for the franchise? I have attempted to explain this concept before, but, behind "but my Qunari wouldn't do that", there's no room to see what's really going on.

A General on the battlefield is the leader of the troops, but in the US Military, the Commander in Chief is the PotUS. The PotUS does not involve himself, routinely, in the day to day operation of the troops. That is the Field Commander's job. That's Chain of Command, and you'll find that it's applicable to probably every legitimate military in the world. Your failure to grasp this concept does not translate to "she was a rogue agent commanding legit troops". You can wave this around all you like, but it doesn't make it true. It makes it a delusion needed to hold onto some ideal of how Trespasser went down. The fact that you have to twist what's said, or imply meaning that isn't stated means that there's something wrong with your theory, not what we're discussing here.

[The Baconer]

Question:

For those who care to entertain thinking about it, what is the difference between the religious crusade of an exalted march and the Qun invasion or war foreshadowed in DA:I. Is it just religion? Gaatlock IEDs? And, perhaps, who is on home field this time?

P.S. Trivia: According to lore, the most recent exalted marches have been against the Qun.

Speaking of the Qunari plan in Trespasser specifically, it's really nothing like the Exalted Marches in context. I mean, the ultimate goal is practically the same but application is the most important element here. After Trespasser I'd want mainland Thedas to repay the Qunari in kind: covert operations, unconventional tactics, terror and destruction indiscriminate.

[Mistic]

A General on the battlefield is the leader of the troops, but in the US Military, the Commander in Chief is the PotUS. The PotUS does not involve himself, routinely, in the day to day operation of the troops. That is the Field Commander's job. That's Chain of Command, and you'll find that it's applicable to probably every legitimate military in the world. Your failure to grasp this concept does not translate to "she was a rogue agent commanding legit troops".

 

This also addresses that bizarre point about Viddasala being called "the Qunari leader" as proof she was working without authorization. I mean, she's clearly the leader of the mission and is Qunari, so I don't see how that proves anything.

[Rel Fexive]

I like browsing the walls of text.
It makes me feel like this fandom is fat with substance somehow.

Whatever it's fat with, all too often it stinks. Badly.

[Dai Grepher]

No, I'm seeing exactly what he said. You, on the other hand, are not.

Yes I am. He said they aren't a rogue group. I never claimed they were a rogue group. End of story.

I have attempted to explain this concept before, but, behind "but my Qunari wouldn't do that", there's no room to see what's really going on.

I didn't write anything about "my Qunari" doing anything. Again, you are imagining words that aren't there.

A General on the battlefield is the leader of the troops, but in the US Military, the Commander in Chief is the PotUS. The PotUS does not involve himself, routinely, in the day to day operation of the troops. That is the Field Commander's job. That's Chain of Command, and you'll find that it's applicable to probably every legitimate military in the world.

Irrelevant real world example. This is the Qunari we're talking about. Stay on topic please.

Your failure to grasp this concept does not translate to "she was a rogue agent commanding legit troops". You can wave this around all you like, but it doesn't make it true.

Dragon Age 2, Act 2, Demands of the Qun. The Arishok leads Qunari to attack Kirkwall without authorization from the Triumvirate. Later, the Triumvirate disavows his actions. Those are irrefutable facts. I made none of this up. This is all in the canon.

It makes it a delusion needed to hold onto some ideal of how Trespasser went down. The fact that you have to twist what's said, or imply meaning that isn't stated means that there's something wrong with your theory, not what we're discussing here.

You're the one twisting words and seeing words that aren't there.

After Trespasser I'd want mainland Thedas to repay the Qunari in kind: covert operations, unconventional tactics, terror and destruction indiscriminate.

Not the Chantry's way of doing things. But I would like to see how a propaganda campaign would turn out. Maybe release some information on the Kossith and their origins.

But there won't be an Exalted March. That was already ruled out. The Triumvirate even requests the Divine's assistance in toppling Tevinter in the alliance worldstate. Tevinter will be the only country at war with the Qunari, and that will be more than enough for the next game. In DA4 we'll see an assault that is truly sanctioned by the Triumvirate.

This also addresses that bizarre point about Viddasala being called "the Qunari leader" as proof she was working without authorization. I mean, she's clearly the leader of the mission and is Qunari, so I don't see how that proves anything.

It proves that Dragon's Breath is not connected to any larger war action. Had it been the opening attack to an official war, she would not be the leader. The Arishok would be a leader, as would the Ariqun. The fact that a low level agent is "the leader" proves it wasn't an official operation.

Also, Viddasala's role is not in leading a war effort. From the Viddasala's codex:

This division, run by a priestess called the Viddasala, or "one who converts purpose," handles the conversion of foreigners, the reeducation of Qunari dissidents, and the collection and quarantine of magic. Things that, by Qunari definition, are threats to themselves and others by nature.

http://dragonage.wik...ntry:_Viddasala

By calling her the leader, Epler confirms this was all her idea. Otherwise she would be just another agent fulfilling a specific purpose, not running the whole show.

[robertthebard]

Yes I am. He said they aren't a rogue group. I never claimed they were a rogue group. End of story.


I didn't write anything about "my Qunari" doing anything. Again, you are imagining words that aren't there.


Irrelevant real world example. This is the Qunari we're talking about. Stay on topic please.

Actually, since this is a military operation we're discussing, it's totally relevant. The fact that it makes your theory go flat doesn't make it irrelevant, it just means that your theory is flat. The fact is, I've been "on topic" in every post. Your walls of text of fanfiction, however, are off topic. We are discussing what was revealed in the interview in the OP. You're discussing what you think happened, in spite of what we've been told, and yet, you have the audacity to claim I'm imagining words that aren't there. So tell me, how do the Qunari go about waging war? What is their command structure? How does the chain of command work? Do they not assign tasks to leaders, making that task the leader's task? Be careful how you answer that, because I have my example of the chain of command sitting in the wings, and I'm going to pull it directly from Origins.

[IllustriousT]

I am reluctant to add to all of this, but I have to  - Takes deep breath-

 

I was under the impression that Viddasala was given explicit orders to carry out her mission through the very means she intended by the Triumvirate in Par Vollen. Once the mission was revealed by Solas' intervention, then the Triumvirate felt it necessary to disavow Viddasala's mission all together. The letter stating this was in her possession because she was also being informed of the Triumvirate's decision to inform the south that she was acting outside their orders. This would also be the time that a new objective could be given. The letter being crumbled could represent her anger at being caught by the Inquisition or simply no longer important and not worth her time. Her mission then seemed to focus on Solas rather than the Inquisition, although we were still involved. 

 

The mission to start a war with the South ended with the letter, but her new mission to stop Solas was initiated instead. Therefore, she at no point goes against the Triumvirate. 

 

It just felt like Solas was her target once her plans were revealed to the Inquisition. 

[Mistic]

I was under the impression that Viddasala was given explicit orders to carry out her mission through the very means she intended by the Triumvirate in Par Vollen. Once the mission was revealed by Solas' intervention, then the Triumvirate felt it necessary to disavow Viddasala's mission all together. The letter stating this was in her possession because she was also being informed of the Triumvirate's decision to inform the south that she was acting outside their orders. This would also be the time that a new objective could be given. The letter being crumbled could represent her anger at being caught by the Inquisition or simply no longer important and not worth her time. Her mission then seemed to focus on Solas rather than the Inquisition, although we were still involved. 

 

Yes, that was my impression as well. It explains more or less everything without the need for any conspiracy theory or having to guess things not stated by the game. I'm still doubtful about the intention of that letter: where they cancelling the operation alltogether or was it their way to say "from now onwards, you are on your own"? (as in Mission Impossible's "should you  be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions").

 

In the end, I don't think it matters much. By that point, the Inquisitor was already invading her headquarters and she was obsessed with Solas, so her hand was forced either way.

[The Baconer]

If the Qunari under the Viddasala work on tasks that are against the wishes of the Triumvirate (like the unsanctioned collection of Lyrium to feed to Saarebas, or the harvesting of Gaatlok), in order to start a war against the wishes of the Triumvirate, while being aware of what they were doing (as you have said, the "Qunari" in Trespasser tried to start a war), they are explicitly a rogue element. Not True Qunari.

The Viddasala, being a leading member of the Ben-Hassrath, a specific branch at that, would not be able to act as a direct authority for most of the Qunari working on Dragon's Breath, unless she was granted the jurisdiction to do so. Laborers, soldiers of the Antaam, engineers, alchemists, scholars, and Ben-Hassrath agents from separate branches would not report to her as a commanding authority in normal situations. If she directs them to act in conflict with the will of the Triumvirate, and they follow through despite knowing the implications of that, they have gone completely rogue. They are Tal-Vashoth. They cannot meet the criteria of "real" or "true" Qunari that you describe.