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It's official, the Viddasala wasn't a rogue agent


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#826
Illegitimus

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Viddasala was so ignorant that she thought the Inquisition was working with the Agent of Fen'Harel. This proves she was not authorized, because the Triumvirate knew the Inquisition had nothing to do with the agent. 

 

 

They knew nothing of the kind.  The Inquisition WAS working with the person the Qunari thought to be the Agent of Fen'Harel and who actually turned out to be more than that.  That is nothing more than a matter of fact.  As for being authorized, well the Mission Impossible Team's missions were all authorized.  And everyone involved would be left hanging in the wind if the mission went sour.  Being authorized wouldn't keep the Qunari from killing her for failing or handing her over as a sacrificial lamb.  


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#827
Almostfaceman

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So here is my proof:

Nonsense ensues. 

 

Well I and others have given you ample opportunity to make a convincing case. You've failed thus far and the reason is clear: You're putting your head canon ahead of Weekes' clear words. It doesn't work. 

 

Nobody here has anything to gain from you being wrong. I came into this discussion never really having thought of the matter before. It's been a while since I played DAI. I don't know who you are and thus don't care about you enough to hold a grudge or admiration. From what I can tell this is an argument void of ego's and rivalries. It's simply a lot of people knowing your nonsense when they see it. Nonsense is nonsense, no matter who it comes from. 

 

So, put together an argument that amounts to more than "hey, Iron Bull doesn't attack the Inquisitor when I think he should" and doesn't contradict Weekes' clear meaning. Maybe then you'll make some headway. 

 

Then again, if you make that argument, you'll agree with everyone else I've seen participate in this thread. 


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#828
fhs33721

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Holy Andraste! Are you guys seriously still arguing about this?


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#829
vbibbi

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Can we get to fifty pages?
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#830
midnight tea

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Can we get to fifty pages?

 

...Fifty Shades of Grepher?


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#831
thats1evildude

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...Fifty Shades of Grepher?

 

He does seem to have some sadistic tendencies. His arguments cause me a lot of mental suffering. :P



#832
ModernAcademic

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Holy Andraste! Are you guys seriously still arguing about this?

 

I'm as appalled as you are. The lenghts to which some people in the BSN will go just to prove an individual is wrong (when all anyone has are half-facts)...never mind how that makes THEM look to the eyes of others.

 

Oh well.



#833
Almostfaceman

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I'm as appalled as you are. The lenghts to which some people in the BSN will go just to prove an individual is wrong (when all anyone has are half-facts)...never mind how that makes THEM look to the eyes of others.

 

Oh well.

 

Nobody is forced to engage in the discussion of this thread. If one does not wish to participate it is a simple matter of not reading the thread and not throwing one's two cents into the discussion. 

 

Save the word "appalling" for something that truly is deserving. Like Justin Bieber videos. 


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#834
Gold Dragon

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Save the word "appalling" for something that truly is deserving. Like Broodmother mating videos. 

 

 

Fixed.  And in-universe, at that.


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#835
ModernAcademic

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Nobody is forced to engage in the discussion of this thread. If one does not wish to participate it is a simple matter of not reading the thread and not throwing one's two cents into the discussion. 

 

Save the word "appalling" for something that truly is deserving. Like Justin Bieber videos. 

 

See? Now they've gone crazy. They're repeating the same kind of high and mighty, overly formal speech without thinking. No one is forced to engage in conversation. If u have nothing useful to add to this discussion, kindly remove yourself from the thread. Otherwise blah blah blah. 

 

Someone turn on the fans to blow off some steam. The thread is hotter than an Antivan brothel on Friday. And I don't mean it in a sexual way.



#836
Almostfaceman

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See? Now they've gone crazy. They're repeating the same kind of high and mighty, overly formal speech without thinking. No one is forced to engage in conversation. If u have nothing useful to add to this discussion, kindly remove yourself from the thread. Otherwise blah blah blah. 

 

Someone turn on the fans to blow off some steam. The thread is hotter than an Antivan brothel on Friday. And I don't mean it in a sexual way.

 

Riiight. Someone stating a few facts about the voluntary nature of the discussion is someone "gone crazy". Uh huh. 

 

not%20sure%20if%20serious_zpstgyemhce.gi


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#837
robertthebard

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I'm as appalled as you are. The lenghts to which some people in the BSN will go just to prove an individual is wrong (when all anyone has are half-facts)...never mind how that makes THEM look to the eyes of others.
 
Oh well.


I'm appalled that you're appalled. I'm also appalled that you consider Word of God to be "half facts".
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#838
thats1evildude

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I'm appalled that you're appalled that he's appalled that this thread's appalling.

#839
ModernAcademic

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I'm appalled that you're appalled that he's appalled that this thread's appalling.

 

Pretty much.



#840
midnight tea

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See? Now they've gone crazy. They're repeating the same kind of high and mighty, overly formal speech without thinking. No one is forced to engage in conversation. If u have nothing useful to add to this discussion, kindly remove yourself from the thread. Otherwise blah blah blah. 

 

*cough*glass houses*cough*stones*cough*


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#841
Heimdall

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I'm appalled that you're appalled that he's appalled that this thread's appalling.

Appalled-ception



#842
midnight tea

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Appalled-ception

 

Appall-sauce?



#843
Dai Grepher

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Actually, since this is a military operation we're discussing, it's totally relevant.


No it isn't. You're using examples of the U.S. Military's chain of command. That's different from the Qunari society's chain of command.

We are discussing what was revealed in the interview in the OP. You're discussing what you think happened, in spite of what we've been told, and yet, you have the audacity to claim I'm imagining words that aren't there.


Yes, you are imagining words that aren't there. Like "invasion". Wasn't there. Remember that one several pages back? All Weekes said was that it wasn't a rogue group. I never claimed it was a rogue group. thesuperdarkone2 merely took "not a rogue group" and assumed that meant "an authorized group". But that is false. They can be real Qunari part of the real Ben-Hassrath, and still be operating without authorization from the Triumvirate. The Arishok did the same thing in DA2, as I posted before and you ignored again.

So tell me, how do the Qunari go about waging war? What is their command structure? How does the chain of command work? Do they not assign tasks to leaders, making that task the leader's task? Be careful how you answer that, because I have my example of the chain of command sitting in the wings, and I'm going to pull it directly from Origins.


I hope you do. According to the canon, the Arishok commands the army, the antaam, which has commanders and soldiers.

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Antaam#Ranks

The leader of invading forces is the Arishok.

The Viddasala is not a commander of invading forces. Her role is as I posted in my previous post.

This division, run by a priestess called the Viddasala, or "one who converts purpose," handles the conversion of foreigners, the reeducation of Qunari dissidents, and the collection and quarantine of magic. Things that, by Qunari definition, are threats to themselves and others by nature.

Now, as for declaring war, it isn't clear. The only real word we've had on it is Bull saying that they're waiting for someone to tell someone that it's on again. I would assume this would require agreement among all three members of the Triumvirate. Each part of the society would need to agree that a war is necessary and possible. For example, the Arigena makes the weapons and the gaatlok. She would need to confirm they have the resources. The Arishok would need to confirm they had the forces. The Ariqun would need to confirm they had the spies and intelligence, though the Antaam also has information gathering personnel.

From there, various agents would be assigned to specific roles. All duties would be properly delegated to those who are best suited to carry out those roles.

I was under the impression that Viddasala was given explicit orders to carry out her mission through the very means she intended by the Triumvirate in Par Vollen.


And that's cool. You are welcome to believe that, and I'm not saying this is impossible. But what canon basis do you have to believe this?

Once the mission was revealed by Solas' intervention, then the Triumvirate felt it necessary to disavow Viddasala's mission all together. The letter stating this was in her possession because she was also being informed of the Triumvirate's decision to inform the south that she was acting outside their orders.


Strange that Josephine's letter would be included in this and that the letter would be addressed to her. If the Triumvirate were trying to contact Viddasala, then why didn't they write a letter of instruction directly to her?

This would also be the time that a new objective could be given. The letter being crumbled could represent her anger at being caught by the Inquisition or simply no longer important and not worth her time. Her mission then seemed to focus on Solas rather than the Inquisition, although we were still involved.


I don't know, I think there was a letter in the Darvaarad instructing them to accelerate Dragon's Breath. It seems Viddasala was still bent on keeping the dragon in use. Also, Viddasala continued to press the point to the Inquisitor that Par Vollen would still invade by force. So if she had been told to abort, she didn't obey, as she told the Inquisitor that invasion would still take place.

The mission to start a war with the South ended with the letter, but her new mission to stop Solas was initiated instead. Therefore, she at no point goes against the Triumvirate.


She still tells the Inquisitor that war would come. She tried to preserve the dragon, despite promising to kill it mercifully once Dragon's Breath was complete. She still fights against the Inquisitor, which is still an act of war. If she had allied with the Inquisitor instead, then I would believe that your theory would be somewhat more likely.

It just felt like Solas was her target once her plans were revealed to the Inquisition.


Yet she unleashed Sareth against the Inquisitor instead of Solas.

#844
Dai Grepher

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Yes, that was my impression as well. It explains more or less everything without the need for any conspiracy theory or having to guess things not stated by the game.


What conspiracy theory? The game outright presents this as Viddasala acting without authorization and the Triumvirate disavowing her. I'm just posting what the game states. Viddasala's behavior matches the scenario of her being unauthorized.

I'm still doubtful about the intention of that letter: where they cancelling the operation alltogether or was it their way to say "from now onwards, you are on your own"? (as in Mission Impossible's "should you be caught or killed, the Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions").


Yet you don't see that as a conspiracy theory?

In the end, I don't think it matters much. By that point, the Inquisitor was already invading her headquarters and she was obsessed with Solas, so her hand was forced either way.


She could have allied with the Inquisitor. In any case, she left through the eluvian instead of try and kill the Inquisitor right there. She even wished him "panahedan".

If the Qunari under the Viddasala work on tasks that are against the wishes of the Triumvirate (like the unsanctioned collection of Lyrium to feed to Saarebas, or the harvesting of Gaatlok), in order to start a war against the wishes of the Triumvirate, while being aware of what they were doing (as you have said, the "Qunari" in Trespasser tried to start a war), they are explicitly a rogue element. Not True Qunari.


Not if Viddasala told them that the Qun demanded all of this, which she did. So they were repurposed by Viddasala. And Viddasala's job description includes "converting purpose".


The Viddasala, being a leading member of the Ben-Hassrath, a specific branch at that, would not be able to act as a direct authority for most of the Qunari working on Dragon's Breath, unless she was granted the jurisdiction to do so.


Sure she would. All she had to do was request units for some proper purpose, and then once she had them she would instruct them to do something else.

Laborers, soldiers of the Antaam, engineers, alchemists, scholars, and Ben-Hassrath agents from separate branches would not report to her as a commanding authority in normal situations. If she directs them to act in conflict with the will of the Triumvirate, and they follow through despite knowing the implications of that, they have gone completely rogue. They are Tal-Vashoth. They cannot meet the criteria of "real" or "true" Qunari that you describe.


They merely obeyed without question. Which is exactly what real Qunari do. The Qunari in Kirkwall did the same thing when the Arishok went against the will of the Triumvirate.

#845
German Soldier

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Yrch. So many walls of text for every tiny little rebuttal.

The longer the essay, the more deluded the opinion and the more tortuous the "logic" required to make their stance clear.... a stance that inevitably no one else will ever be won over to.

I will remind myself of this whenever i will see @The KomandorShepard around.



#846
IllustriousT

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And that's cool. You are welcome to believe that, and I'm not saying this is impossible. But what canon basis do you have to believe this?

 

What canon basis says otherwise? 

 

Strange that Josephine's letter would be included in this and that the letter would be addressed to her. If the Triumvirate were trying to contact Viddasala, then why didn't they write a letter of instruction directly to her?

 

This actually isn't strange at all. I CC people all the time in emails so that the information regarding said subject is transferred to all parties with accuracy. Why would they not do the same?

 

I don't know, I think there was a letter in the Darvaarad instructing them to accelerate Dragon's Breath. It seems Viddasala was still bent on keeping the dragon in use. Also, Viddasala continued to press the point to the Inquisitor that Par Vollen would still invade by force. So if she had been told to abort, she didn't obey, as she told the Inquisitor that invasion would still take place.

 I am not questioning Viddasala's intended use of Dragon's Breath, only the redirection of its use. I am also not questioning any future attack that Viddasala may be privy too, but this particular mission regarding the attack on the Exalted Council failed. They now have a very powerful weapon they can't use as originally intended, so why not use it to blow up an alleged god or his network?

 

 

She still tells the Inquisitor that war would come. She tried to preserve the dragon, despite promising to kill it mercifully once Dragon's Breath was complete. She still fights against the Inquisitor, which is still an act of war. If she had allied with the Inquisitor instead, then I would believe that your theory would be somewhat more likely.
 

 

 Viddasala believes that the Inquisition is working for Fen'haral. I do not think that Viddasala believes the inquisition to be innocent at all. Solas' intervention has proved to be a bigger threat and the Inquisition is believed to be agents of this threat. She also continuously runs from us as we catch up and implements stalling tactics to prevent us from stopping her reaching Solas. Her end goal in most of Trespasser is to kill Solas (she gave her life in the attempt), therefore ending the Inquisition's power - a major power in the South. All of which is no longer part of the original mission that was disavowed, this is new objectives and targets, with the Inquisition being reduced to a nuisance. 

 

 

Yet she unleashed Sareth against the Inquisitor instead of Solas.

 

Stalling tactics. If the Inquisition was her main concern, she would have faced us with her entire force. The Inquisitor is standing right in front of her with only a backup party of 3 people. If she was still truly concerned about the Inquisition, she would have thrown all of her forces at it instead of constantly evading through the eluvians. Viddasala never fights us - her only concern is to cut the head off the snake (Solas) and the body will die (Inquisition) - in her mind. 

 

 

------------

 

To everyone else: Sorry to prolong the suffering  :)


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#847
The Baconer

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Not if Viddasala told them that the Qun demanded all of this, which she did. So they were repurposed by Viddasala. And Viddasala's job description includes "converting purpose".


Being lied to and repurposed by an alleged Tal-Vashoth makes them Tal-Vashoth.



Sure she would. All she had to do was request units for some proper purpose, and then once she had them she would instruct them to do something else.


No, I'm not going to assume the process is that simple.

Of course, if they were transferred into her service under the pretense of doing one thing, and then that purpose was changed to something else that conflicts with the will of the Triumvirate, that would make them Tal-Vashoth for complying.

They merely obeyed without question. Which is exactly what real Qunari do. The Qunari in Kirkwall did the same thing when the Arishok went against the will of the Triumvirate.


The Arishok himself is a third of the Triumvirate, supreme leader of the Qunari's naval forces and armies, which also made him the ultimate superior of every stranded Qunari on Kirkwall. There is no such context to be applied to the Viddasala.

As for obedience defining true Qunari, following the orders of the wrong person is precisely what makes Iron Bull Tal-Vashoth. If the Qunari working under Viddasala are aware that what they are doing is against the Qun or unsanctioned, they are as complicit as Bull was.
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#848
thesuperdarkone2

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I will remind myself of this whenever i will see @The KomandorShepard around.

I'd pay to see an argument between tks and Dai

#849
fhs33721

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I'll try to find a picture that can accurately represent some of the "arguments" in this thread:

 

Oh, I found one:

Spoiler


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#850
robertthebard

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No it isn't. You're using examples of the U.S. Military's chain of command. That's different from the Qunari society's chain of command.


Yes, you are imagining words that aren't there. Like "invasion". Wasn't there. Remember that one several pages back? All Weekes said was that it wasn't a rogue group. I never claimed it was a rogue group. thesuperdarkone2 merely took "not a rogue group" and assumed that meant "an authorized group". But that is false. They can be real Qunari part of the real Ben-Hassrath, and still be operating without authorization from the Triumvirate. The Arishok did the same thing in DA2, as I posted before and you ignored again.


I hope you do. According to the canon, the Arishok commands the army, the antaam, which has commanders and soldiers.

http://dragonage.wik...ki/Antaam#Ranks

The leader of invading forces is the Arishok.

The Viddasala is not a commander of invading forces. Her role is as I posted in my previous post.


...and yet, this is her operation, or they couldn't disavow her.


I don't know,


This about sums up your entire position.
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