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[Dai Grepher]

They knew nothing of the kind.  The Inquisition WAS working with the person the Qunari thought to be the Agent of Fen'Harel and who actually turned out to be more than that. That is nothing more than a matter of fact.

No, Solas left the Inquisition two years prior, and the Inquisition was unable to find him. Hissrad could confirm this. Viddasala did not have access to Hissrad's intel because she was out of the loop and acting without sanction. Had this been an official operation, Viddasala would have known what Hissrad knew, that Solas left two years ago.

As for being authorized, well the Mission Impossible Team's missions were all authorized.  And everyone involved would be left hanging in the wind if the mission went sour.

They also would have been left hanging had they not been authorized.

Being authorized wouldn't keep the Qunari from killing her for failing or handing her over as a sacrificial lamb.

Nothing is wasted under the Qun. If she was authorized and failed, she would simply be reassigned to some other role, likely a worker. Tallis had failed in her authorized mission, and she was simply made a worker.

*Dismisses facts*

You failed to refute the facts I posted from Weekes and Epler.

What canon basis says otherwise?

Viddasala thought the Inquisitor was working for the Agent of Fen'Harel, whom she knew as Solas. This proves she was outside the official loop, because Hissrad can confirm that Solas left two years before this and that the Inquisition had not found him.

Viddasala was blatantly violating the Qunari society's policy on keeping saarebas suppressed to magic.

She also brought red lyrium to the Darvaarad despite Par Vollen taking great effort to keep red lyrium confined to the South as shown in the Storm Coast mission.

Viddasala was the only agent of any high rank, and she was overseeing all aspects of Dragon's Breath. This indicates that she was its mastermind, and Epler's comment also confirms this. Had this been official, she would have been one agent of several, and her role in it would have been directed to one or two tasks, such as confining any magical artifacts and educating the viddathari on the purpose of the mission.

The Arigena makes gaatlok, yet Viddasala was having untrained agents make gaatlok in the Darvaarad. This contradicts designated roles.

The Qunari chain of command dictates that a high ranking member of the Antaam, likely the Arishok lead any war efforts. Had this been official, Viddasala would not be the agent used for executing Dragon's Breath.

But I asked you why you believed the Triumvirate authorized her to attack the South. Right now, that just seems like your idea. What evidence indicated this?

This actually isn't strange at all. I CC people all the time in emails so that the information regarding said subject is transferred to all parties with accuracy. Why would they not do the same?

Carbon copies are fine, but when you pick up the notes the game message states that the envelope with the Inquisition seal sits open with Josephine's letter. So this wasn't a copy. It was Josephine's letter, and it was being returned to Josephine with the Triumvirate's response to Josephine. The Triumvirate would want it to reach her in order to avoid a war. Also, the letter addresses Josephine's concerns, it does not give Viddasala instruction. If the Triumvirate is going to issue a command, such as "abort" or "you're on your own", or "forget the South and just kill the one known as Solas", then don't you think they wouldn't leave their wishes up to Viddasala's interpretation? Don't you think they would state clear orders to her?

I am not questioning Viddasala's intended use of Dragon's Breath, only the redirection of its use. I am also not questioning any future attack that Viddasala may be privy too, but this particular mission regarding the attack on the Exalted Council failed. They now have a very powerful weapon they can't use as originally intended, so why not use it to blow up an alleged god or his network?

I guess what I'm getting at here is that Viddasala never stated that the dragon would be used for a different purpose. She said it would be killed mercifully after Dragon's Breath was complete. So keeping it alive and still trying to make gaatlok appears to be for the purpose of attacking the South. Dragon's Breath was formed before Solas started attacking, so it doesn't look like she was going to use the dragon's venom to make gaatlok to use against him.

Also, if Viddasala was told to abort the attack on the South because Par Vollen wanted to disavow any involvement, then her telling the Inquisitor that Par Vollen would still invade directly implicates them and defies their will.

Viddasala believes that the Inquisition is working for Fen'haral.

On the bridge after the dragon, Viddasala realizes that the Inquisitor truly had no knowledge of Solas' schemes. She then wishes him panehadan.

I do not think that Viddasala believes the inquisition to be innocent at all. Solas' intervention has proved to be a bigger threat and the Inquisition is believed to be agents of this threat. She also continuously runs from us as we catch up and implements stalling tactics to prevent us from stopping her reaching Solas. Her end goal in most of Trespasser is to kill Solas (she gave her life in the attempt), therefore ending the Inquisition's power - a major power in the South. All of which is no longer part of the original mission that was disavowed, this is new objectives and targets, with the Inquisition being reduced to a nuisance.

But if the Triumvirate told her to knock it off, then she shouldn't be attacking the Inquisitor at all. If her end goal is to kill Solas, then how can she be trusted to carry out Dragon's Breath? Doesn't this necessarily divide her attention? And if she wanted to kill Solas, and was instructed to abort the attacks against the Inquisitor, then why not work with the Inquisitor to stop Solas?

Stalling tactics. If the Inquisition was her main concern, she would have faced us with her entire force. The Inquisitor is standing right in front of her with only a backup party of 3 people. If she was still truly concerned about the Inquisition, she would have thrown all of her forces at it instead of constantly evading through the eluvians. Viddasala never fights us - her only concern is to cut the head off the snake (Solas) and the body will die (Inquisition) - in her mind.

Stalling for what? She did nothing but lose most of her forces against these unimportant bas. She wasted her most powerful weapon on said bas. Then when she finally got to Solas, she had nothing but the same old statue fodder that Solas had dealt with prior to this in the elvhen ruins. She used up troops that were proven to have already failed against Solas. And in the Shattered Library she did order her Qunari to kill the Inquisitor, but she didn't use Serath at that time, nor did she call on Hissrad.

[Dai Grepher]

Being lied to and repurposed by an alleged Tal-Vashoth makes them Tal-Vashoth.

How's that? They didn't choose to defy the Triumvirate. They were told by someone in authority that this is what the Triumvirate demanded.

No, I'm not going to assume the process is that simple.

Of course, if they were transferred into her service under the pretense of doing one thing, and then that purpose was changed to something else that conflicts with the will of the Triumvirate, that would make them Tal-Vashoth for complying.

Not if she told them that the tasks she gave them were willed by the Triumvirate. Also remember that Viddasala is a re-educator. Any Qunari who would question her would be brainwashed to believe as she wanted them to.

The Arishok himself is a third of the Triumvirate, supreme leader of the Qunari's naval forces and armies, which also made him the ultimate superior of every stranded Qunari on Kirkwall. There is no such context to be applied to the Viddasala.

That you know of. But if she has no authority over them at all, then the same applies if the operation were official. She would still have no authority over them. In which case we would have seen several more agents from the Arishok's branch, as well as other Ben-Hassrath priests overseeing part of the operation.

But if you believe the Triumvirate gave her full sanction and oversight, then that too would apply to my position. If such a thing is possible, she could have deceived the Qunari under her into believing she was given full authority by the Triumvirate even when she really wasn't.

As for obedience defining true Qunari, following the orders of the wrong person is precisely what makes Iron Bull Tal-Vashoth. If the Qunari working under Viddasala are aware that what they are doing is against the Qun or unsanctioned, they are as complicit as Bull was.

No, The Iron Bull becomes Tal-Vashoth for giving up the position and allowing Qunari on the dreadnought to be killed. The Qun demanded that they hold the hills. The Iron Bull purposely gave up one of those hills. Gatt makes it clear; if Bull signals the retreat he would be declaring himself Tal-Vashoth.

As for obedience, the Qunari are taught to believe that official ranking Qunari are to be trusted and obeyed.

Viddasala wrote notes to convince those under her that what they were doing was demanded by the Qun. So I'm sure she was questioned, but all she had to do was show off some brainwashing skills, which is was re-educators do.

...and yet, this is her operation, or they couldn't disavow her.

They disavow her BECAUSE it was all her idea and they didn't authorize it.

This about sums up your entire position.

Taking quotes out of context sums up yours.

[robertthebard]

They disavow her BECAUSE it was all her idea and they didn't authorize it.


Taking quotes out of context sums up yours.

Just to get this straight: A Qun loyal IB doesn't get any missives concerning a rogue agent operating in Southern Thedas because? You see, you're telling us that despite them thinking her actions could lead to war, they didn't inform a well placed agent with another War Table mission, or even an actual mission, to take her out, despite all the missions you can get for the War Table if you have an alliance going?


Well, according to Weekes, it's because there was no rogue agent working in Trespasser. According to Weekes, they wanted to make her one so that they could avoid a Qun loyal IB turning on the Inquisitor, but they couldn't talk themselves into doing it. If she's off the books, she's rogue. If she's rogue, all of the Qunari with her are also rogue, but for some reason, well, for the reason that you need it to be true for your theory, a Qun loyal IB will still follow her orders. The logical explanation for this is that it wouldn't happen. A Qun loyal IB would have been notified about her activities.

This is how we end up with the mental gymnastics required to get "But a military chain of command doesn't apply to the Qunari". This is how we get "all of her soldiers were real Qunari, that have been duped into following a Tal Vashoth", because we all know that the Antaam doesn't have messengers to let their soldiers know to kill her, right? Nobody in their organization is going to turn her in, because that's not a demand of the Qun, right? If they don't turn themselves in for reeducation, there's no problem, right? These are a few examples of the mental gymnastics required to believe what you're telling us. These are a few of the points that I considered before this thread existed. None of them fit, however, because your qunari wouldn't do this kind of thing. However, for all your flailing about claiming you've never said this, every post screams it. The reason is quite simple: We have Weekes telling us that the Qunari did that, and then we have you going "nuh uh". I wonder where I might draw a conclusion about "your qunari", since the setting's Qunari are starting a war, but your Qunari are the victim of a rogue agent.

Before you come back to "but I never said she was a rogue agent", or some similar argument, you indeed have. You've claimed she's off the books, and the rest of the Qunari just didn't know, which is why I stated that "I don't know" about sums up your position, because it's fairly obvious that you don't know what's happening in Trespasser, but you've created this neat little box of fanfiction that has to be true for your imagining of the Qunari, hence "your Qunari".

[Almostfaceman]

Taking quotes out of context sums up yours.

 

[IllustriousT]

Oh well, It's Friday...why not.

 

 

Hissrad: A known spy - very unlikely to be absolutely privy to all of the Inquisition's dealings. Therefore it is reasonable to believe that Viddasala cannot trust that all relevant information has been transferred with accuracy. Hissrad passes along what the Inquisition wants him to pass along with maybe a few extra bits of information. This information should always be in doubt by the Qunari. 

 

Solas: Is not actively at Skyhold. This could mean that he is furthering the agenda of Fen'harel as his agent and also for his fellow agents, The Inquisition. His absence cannot be accepted as irrevocable evidence that he is no longer involved with the Inquisition. 

 

Roles within the Qun: No role in any organization is completely static, especially when an overlap occurs. This mission involved the roles of the Triumvirate to initiate. They are working together as they should to successfully complete the task they have begun. Viddasala, is part of the Ben-Hassrath - the chosen one responsible for this mission based on, I'm assuming a pretty long rap sheet of successful deeds. In war, rules have to be bent and the organization must work as one. I am not arguing truths here...only possibilities. 

 

Also, keep in mind that the dead Qunari found in the Winter Palace was from the Antaam, supporting that all three branches were working together. Since the Ben-Hassrath are the only ones that disavowed Viddasala's actions, then it is possible that the other two branches have not. She was authorized by the Triumvirate as a whole.

 

The Letter:  Possibility - a copy was sent to the Inquisition with the Triumvirate's seal on it, and Viddasala received the original to ensure accurate information regarding the attack on the Exalted Council only. Accompanied letters or orders given word of mouth, are unknown and therefore - a possibility. 

 

Dragon's Breath: Dragon's Breath is a very powerful weapon that was originally intended to attack the Exalted Council, weakening the south for an invasion. This failed. The Inquisition becomes involved and chases down Viddasala and her forces to find answers and stop any "perceived" future attacks. Since Viddasala does not use Dragon's Breath, it is unclear what her next intention truly was with it, except to aid in gatlock mining more Lyrium for super-juiced Saarabas. There is no evidence after the failure of her mission on the Exalted Council, of her intentions with the Dragon's Breath gatlock, but we can see the use in the mines. 

 

Viddasala vs Solas: Viddasala's realization that the Inquisition was clueless to Solas' plan happens end game. Too late to make adjustments at that time. My intention was not to have you believe that the Triumvirate, at any time, ordered Viddasala to "knock it off" with the Inquisition. That is irrelevant. The reason it is irrelevant is because apart from the infiltration of the gatlock in the Winter Palace, Viddasala does not attack us again. We, the Inquisition, follow her through the eluvians and constantly attack her - she is then driven to divide her forces in preventing us from stopping her from the ultimate goal - taking the snake's head (Solas). It is not that the Inquisition is no longer important, it is just that Viddasala sees us an force that is trying to stop her from her new mission. The Inquisition are mere agents to Fen'Harel. It is my belief that she truly believes (along with the Triumvirate) that Fen'Harel is the ultimate cause of all this destructive magic in the South (and she is right), and if only she removes him, then her mission will be a success. 

   Stalling tactics...yes. She is stalling to prevent us from preventing her execution of orders - kill Solas. If Solas was not a target, she would have faced the Inquisitor herself. She threw Saarath at us in a last desperate attempt to stop our advancement. We are a powerful force after all. She did divide her forces, erroneously so, and in doing so failed completely in her mission. 

[Dai Grepher]

Just to get this straight: A Qun loyal IB doesn't get any missives concerning a rogue agent operating in Southern Thedas because?

Because they didn't know Viddasala was operating in the South or acting without authorization in various ways. Their reply letter states this.

You see, you're telling us that despite them thinking her actions could lead to war, they didn't inform a well placed agent with another War Table mission, or even an actual mission, to take her out, despite all the missions you can get for the War Table if you have an alliance going?

No, perhaps you are reading my rebuttal to IllustriousT and confusing that with my position. Above I was just discussing IllustriousT's position, which is that the Triumvirate authorized Viddasala to attack the South, but told her to cancel once Josephine's letter reached them confirming that the South foiled the plot.

My position has always been that the Triumvirate was unaware of Viddasala's actions.

Well, according to Weekes, it's because there was no rogue agent working in Trespasser. According to Weekes, they wanted to make her one so that they could avoid a Qun loyal IB turning on the Inquisitor, but they couldn't talk themselves into doing it. If she's off the books, she's rogue. If she's rogue, all of the Qunari with her are also rogue, but for some reason, well, for the reason that you need it to be true for your theory, a Qun loyal IB will still follow her orders.

Because she isn't rogue. She's a real Qunari acting without authorization. Just as Weekes said. I am merely stating the facts.

The logical explanation for this is that it wouldn't happen. A Qun loyal IB would have been notified about her activities.

Correct. But if you stop and think about this for a moment, this was my point against your side. If this had been authorized, Hissrad would have been informed of it. He also would have been instructed to ensure Dragon's Breath's success. Instead, in the game, he helps foil it. Why?

This is how we end up with the mental gymnastics required to get "But a military chain of command doesn't apply to the Qunari".

I wrote that the United States' chain of command is irrelevant to the Qunari.

This is how we get "all of her soldiers were real Qunari, that have been duped into following a Tal Vashoth", because we all know that the Antaam doesn't have messengers to let their soldiers know to kill her, right? Nobody in their organization is going to turn her in, because that's not a demand of the Qun, right? If they don't turn themselves in for reeducation, there's no problem, right? These are a few examples of the mental gymnastics required to believe what you're telling us.

Or maybe you're just misunderstanding my position.

Viddasala is authorized to request antaam to protect Ben-Hassrath agents while they do their jobs. She is authorized to request and use gaatlok to perform her duty of destroying magic. She is authorized to bring back magical relics for quarantine at the Darvaarad. She is authorized to have in her possession saarebas in order to watch over them. She is authorized to reeducate viddathari.

So she had many tools at her disposal for her purpose of finding, studying, and stopping magic. But once she got the resources she requested for her legitimate purposes she chose to repurpose these resources to launch her own clandestine operation.

She instructed the antaam to wait in the ruins until ordered to attack Halamshiral. The Arigena did not let her have as much gaatlok as she requested, so Viddasala made more on her own using the dragon. She used the gaatlok, not to destroy magic, but to harvest its raw form. She brought magical artifacts back to the Darvaarad, but had her viddathari lie about where they were found and what they were, including red lyrium, and she didn't do this to quarantine the magic but rather to study it for use by her agents and even the saarebas. She mistreated the saarebas left in her care by immersing them in magic via lyrium. She misused her position of authority over the viddathari to brainwash them so they would place gaatlok in the South for the purpose of war, and she made them think that everything she was doing was demanded by the Qun.

So what this boils down to is Viddasala appearing legitimate to the Triumvirate and their branches, but then secretly misusing all the resources given to her in order to start a war that the Triumvirate was not ready for and did not authorize.

[Dai Grepher]

Oh well, It's Friday...why not.

Thanks for the open discussion.

My rebuttal in order.

Yes Hissrad was a known spy, and only sent what Leliana allowed, but Solas leaving would not be a matter of concern. Hissrad also returned to the Qunari for debriefing, he indicates he will go back in the celebration dinner at the end of Inquisition. This would be the perfect opportunity to give a more detailed report, and the Qunari would have every reason to trust him if he chose to hold the hill in the Storm Coast mission. And even if for some strange reason they doubted his report that Solas left, it would at least prevent them from jumping to the conclusion that the Inquisition was working with Solas. They could also contact Hissrad during Trespasser for confirmation if they wanted.

The fact that Leliana had sent agents to find Solas and failed would show that Solas was truly gone.

Roles are very important however. A role could change from a crucial one to a lesser one, but certain roles do not overlap with others. A Ben-Hassrath agent will never be in charge of forging weapons for war. That is a role of the Arigena branch. I don't see any Arigena agents at the Darvaarad, and Viddasala's letter to the workers showed that they were amateurs at creating gaatlok. Another thing that should have been obvious to me before, Viddasala can't be leading a war effort by mere fact that she is a woman. War is a man's role.

Just because Antaam soldiers were present doesn't mean the branches were working together to attack the South. It is common for Antaam soldiers to protect Qunari outposts as well as Ben-Hassrath agents while they work. Those Antaam could have been given to Viddasala for the purpose of protecting Ben-Hassrath agents while they worked in the elvhen ruins. The Ben-Hassrath disavowed her as well, indicating that even they did not know of her actions, but the Triumvirate disavowed her in the reply letter to Josephine.

But why did Viddasala receive a letter that addressed Josephine? Why didn't she get a letter addressing her directly? And what use was Josephine's letter to Viddasala? Why not simply mention the letter in the message to Viddasala? And why crumple the letter up if she knew that aborting the mission was always a possibility? And why not send the letter on to Josephine? There was nothing in the Triumvirate's reply indicating that a copy was sent to Josephine. How was Viddasala supposed to know not to pass the letter along?

But the lyrium mines were destroyed before Dragon's Breath was foiled.

Adjustments? She could have just allied with them and gone after Solas as planned. Perhaps even let the Inquisitor go first and take all the risk. Okay, but isn't that what the Triumvirate letter stated in essence? They know nothing of any attack against the South, and they value the alliance. That seems to state, "knock it off" if this were meant for Viddasala to read and comprehend as an order to her. I don't think the Inquisitor attacked any of them. They all attack him on sight. Dividing her forces is one thing, wasting her trump card is another. If she wanted to kill Solas so much, then why didn't she send Sareth against him? Also, why did she throw her life away attacking Solas when she knew perfectly well that she couldn't survive his attack? If defeating Solas really were her goal, she should have returned to Par Vollen and informed the Triumvirate of Solas' abilities. Her final attempted attack against him was as foolish as her entire plan, and ended the same way.

By stalling us isn't she stalling herself? Why not just go straight for Solas? Why bother waiting for us to kill her troops? She could have just left troops to stop the Inquisitor while she, Sareth, and some soldiers went after Solas. All eluviuans were open to her at all times.

[pdusen]

a real Qunari acting without authorization.

 

I can't get past the fact that you think this is a thing.

[Reznore57]

I can't get past the fact that you think this is a thing.

 

It's kind of a thing , Talis was acting on her own , the Qunari told her to not go after her Tal Vashoth mentor but she did it anyway.

But this is a far more serious issue at play here , the Vidassala says something like the moment the Breach opened , the Qunari decided to launch an invasion (well they always wanted to do that , but a quicker invasion ).

They wanted to go the "gentle path" and only blew up the leaders of the South , instead of a head on full war.

[IllustriousT]

Still Friday...

 

In regards to Hissrad,  I am only referring to events in Trespasser not during the main game. So, although neither Hissrad nor the Qunari was alerted at Solas' absence, with hindsight, it may seem relevant. I am not questioning whether the Qunari believe Hissrad's reports, but the possible belief that Hissrad was not able to get all relevant information. 

 

In Trespasser, the Qunari believe that the Inquisition are working for agents of Fen'Harel. Why would they think this if it is known that the Inquisition has not had any contact with Solas in the subsequent two years after DAI? Solas is believed to be an agent of Fen'harel who has involved us in a plot that the Qunari has been clearly working on for a long time. During these events in Trespasser, we are stumbling through the remnants of a half-executed failed plan to destroy all the southern leaders at the exalted council. This is the only mission that was denied by the Triumvirate. They specifically say in the letter that "no one in Par Vollen has authorized actions of any kind involving the Exalted Council. Nor will they." The specificity of this can be construed to insinuate that Viddasala has authorization in all other aspects of her actions. She failed to destroy the Exalted Council - Denied, since it was not successful. When she fails to complete her secondary mission - again, denied. These are politics. 

 

Roles are very important. No doubt. Viddasala being a woman supports that she was following a chain of command, that although she was responsible for this mission, that her superiors were calling the shots. I also do not deny that the Antaam are known to protect Arigena agents, but in doing so they are in aid of the mission and are working together. A clear concerted effort. 

 

The Letter:  The letter cannot be altered in anyway for purposes of accuracy. It is not addressed to Viddasala because it is supplementary material given to her for her acknowledgement of the correspondence between the two organizations. If anyone altered it in anyway, it would be suspicious.  Viddasala would have received accompanying letters with her reassignment. This may have also been by word of mouth - either way, that information is not available to us and is unknown. As the player, this information was provided with unclear intentions - so, this is all still only a possibility. 

 

Dragon's Breath is still a pivotal part of the mission. This has not changed. 

 

Viddasala witnessed much by the Inquisition. We tore through the remnants of her failed mission, killing and routing her forces - just what Solas intended after he intercepted her spies within the Inquisition. We freed/killed Ataashi and continuously fought against her. A moment of realization of our own ignorance will not win her as an ally. She was determined to see her mission through, and although there is the possibility that she could have returned to Par Vollen with vital information, chances are she sent that information on through letters or messenger. Her mission could have very well needed to end her death due to her failure thus far. 

 

She was trying to go straight for Solas. We continued to follow her and she had to continue throwing forces at us to try to defeat us. Its like trying to move from point A to point B with someone hanging on your shirt, you have to beat them off to make it to B. I'm terrible with analogies, but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm saying.  Hissrad is only important because of his role within the Inquisition, so him being there to defeat Solas is not necessary. As for Saarath, I agree that he may have been a better weapon against Solas, but our continuous pulling and depleting her forces, forced Viddasala's hand. She had to release Saarath in order for her to at least make it to Solas. I do agree that she didn't have a chance, and I think she also knew that, but orders are orders, and to the death it must be. 

[KaiserShep]

Koslun's balls, this will go on forever, won't it?

[thats1evildude]

BY THE HOARY HOSTS OF HOGGOTH!

I just felt like saying that.

[Dai Grepher]

I can't get past the fact that you think this is a thing.

DA2 Arishok.

It's kind of a thing , Talis was acting on her own , the Qunari told her to not go after her Tal Vashoth mentor but she did it anyway.
But this is a far more serious issue at play here , the Vidassala says something like the moment the Breach opened , the Qunari decided to launch an invasion (well they always wanted to do that , but a quicker invasion ).

Which we know is a lie. The Iron Bull confirms that he was sent to see if an invasion was necessary. It was concluded that it was not, as the Breach was sealed and Corypheus was defeated.

[robertthebard]

Because they didn't know Viddasala was operating in the South or acting without authorization in various ways. Their reply letter states this.


No, perhaps you are reading my rebuttal to IllustriousT and confusing that with my position. Above I was just discussing IllustriousT's position, which is that the Triumvirate authorized Viddasala to attack the South, but told her to cancel once Josephine's letter reached them confirming that the South foiled the plot.

My position has always been that the Triumvirate was unaware of Viddasala's actions.


Because she isn't rogue. She's a real Qunari acting without authorization. Just as Weekes said. I am merely stating the facts.

If she's acting w/out authorization, she's rogue. Weekes has stated that a Qun loyal IB followed her specifically because she's not rogue. So she's either rogue, or she's authorized, you can't have it both ways. Pick a side of the fence, and run with it.

[Dai Grepher]

In regards to Hissrad,  I am only referring to events in Trespasser not during the main game. So, although neither Hissrad nor the Qunari was alerted at Solas' absence, with hindsight, it may seem relevant. I am not questioning whether the Qunari believe Hissrad's reports, but the possible belief that Hissrad was not able to get all relevant information.

But Solas was gone, and Hissrad was still there to observe this fact. And in Trespasser Hissrad knows that we don't know how the dead Qunari ended up there.

In Trespasser, the Qunari believe that the Inquisition are working for agents of Fen'Harel. Why would they think this if it is known that the Inquisition has not had any contact with Solas in the subsequent two years after DAI? Solas is believed to be an agent of Fen'harel who has involved us in a plot that the Qunari has been clearly working on for a long time. During these events in Trespasser, we are stumbling through the remnants of a half-executed failed plan to destroy all the southern leaders at the exalted council. This is the only mission that was denied by the Triumvirate. They specifically say in the letter that "no one in Par Vollen has authorized actions of any kind involving the Exalted Council. Nor will they." The specificity of this can be construed to insinuate that Viddasala has authorization in all other aspects of her actions. She failed to destroy the Exalted Council - Denied, since it was not successful. When she fails to complete her secondary mission - again, denied. These are politics.

But they said they didn't authorize her to do that in the first place. And I think we're getting off topic. Hissrad knew we had nothing to do with killing the Qunari soldier or trying to foil any plot. He could have confirmed this as a spy. The reason Viddasala kept thinking the Inquisition was working with the agent of Fen'Harel is because she didn't have access to Hissrad's intel. This indicates she was acting on her own.

Roles are very important. No doubt. Viddasala being a woman supports that she was following a chain of command, that although she was responsible for this mission, that her superiors were calling the shots.

Uh... unless she was doing it on her own. But even if she had a superior, there are no other agents of her level commanding the various aspects of the operation. Also, her having a superior officer doesn't mean she was authorized to engage in war. She would have been assigned to something that suits her role. She would not be assigned to a war role at all.

I also do not deny that the Antaam are known to protect Arigena agents, but in doing so they are in aid of the mission and are working together. A clear concerted effort.

No, they can stand guard without knowing what is going on. The gatekeeper's log shows this. He keeps asking for proper documentation on where the various relics were found, and Viddasala's agents kept giving vague reports. This got to the point where the guard requested a murder knife from his Sten.

The Letter:  The letter cannot be altered in anyway for purposes of accuracy. It is not addressed to Viddasala because it is supplementary material given to her for her acknowledgement of the correspondence between the two organizations. If anyone altered it in anyway, it would be suspicious.  Viddasala would have received accompanying letters with her reassignment. This may have also been by word of mouth - either way, that information is not available to us and is unknown. As the player, this information was provided with unclear intentions - so, this is all still only a possibility.

Then why ball up the Triumvirate's letter? Why not ball up her own personal orders that she allegedly received separately?

Dragon's Breath is still a pivotal part of the mission. This has not changed.

Dragon's Breath was foiled when the Southern courts were warned of the danger.

Viddasala witnessed much by the Inquisition. We tore through the remnants of her failed mission, killing and routing her forces - just what Solas intended after he intercepted her spies within the Inquisition. We freed/killed Ataashi and continuously fought against her. A moment of realization of our own ignorance will not win her as an ally.

Not our ignorance, her ignorance. Why couldn't she see that we had a mutual interest in stopping Solas? And for someone who still considers us enemies, she didn't show it when she said "panahedan", which means, "Take refuge in safety".

She was determined to see her mission through, and although there is the possibility that she could have returned to Par Vollen with vital information, chances are she sent that information on through letters or messenger. Her mission could have very well needed to end her death due to her failure thus far.

Qunari are not killed for failure. And there is no way she sent a letter while confronting Solas head on.

She was trying to go straight for Solas. We continued to follow her and she had to continue throwing forces at us to try to defeat us. Its like trying to move from point A to point B with someone hanging on your shirt, you have to beat them off to make it to B. I'm terrible with analogies, but hopefully you get the gist of what I'm saying.

I understand the analogy, it simply doesn't apply to Viddasala. She had the vantage of running through a nearby eluvian each time we got close. We never had the opportunity to actually delay Viddasala physically.

Hissrad is only important because of his role within the Inquisition, so him being there to defeat Solas is not necessary. As for Saarath, I agree that he may have been a better weapon against Solas, but our continuous pulling and depleting her forces, forced Viddasala's hand. She had to release Saarath in order for her to at least make it to Solas.

I do agree that she didn't have a chance, and I think she also knew that, but orders are orders, and to the death it must be.

Again, the eluvian was open to her. She could have used the troops she used against Solas to hold the Inquisitor back instead, and then just go with Saarath to combat Solas. You keep saying Solas is the main target, but Vid just keeps throwing her best at the Inquisitor.

I was disappointed we couldn't fight her. Shouldn't she have at least tried to fight the Inquisitor instead of Solas?

[Dai Grepher]

If she's acting w/out authorization, she's rogue.

No she's not.

Weekes has stated that a Qun loyal IB followed her specifically because she's not rogue.

No he didn't.

[The Baconer]

Because she isn't rogue. She's a real Qunari acting without authorization. Just as Weekes said. I am merely stating the facts.

 

I think we've reached the most critical point here. Viddasala is unauthorized, disavowed, but not rogue. She is Tal-Vashoth, yet also true Qunari. 

 

Nothing more needs to be said or proven. Everything we need to know is summed up right here. 

[Almostfaceman]

It's kind of a thing , Talis was acting on her own , the Qunari told her to not go after her Tal Vashoth mentor but she did it anyway.

But this is a far more serious issue at play here , the Vidassala says something like the moment the Breach opened , the Qunari decided to launch an invasion (well they always wanted to do that , but a quicker invasion ).

They wanted to go the "gentle path" and only blew up the leaders of the South , instead of a head on full war.

 

It's kind of a thing from an "in the moment" story player perspective. It's not a thing when the developer comes straight out and tells you what's going on. 

[midnight tea]

No she's not.


No he didn't.

 

 

I am still baffled how you can even say (well... write) say that he didn't with a straight face. Like... it's there. Everyone can hear him saying that IB would not betray Inky if Viddasala was a rogue group. There's not a large room for interpretation there; Weekes' statements are very clear in that regard.

[Reznore57]

It's kind of a thing from an "in the moment" story player perspective. It's not a thing when the developer comes straight out and tells you what's going on. 

 

Well it's just that it seems people think the moment a Qunari disobey an order , it makes him or her Tal Vashoth on the spot .

That's not how it works.

Tallis disobey orders multiple times , and she got stunk in some kitchen as a result , not made Tal Vashoth.

[robertthebard]

No she's not.


No he didn't.

Reads as: But my Qunari wouldn't do that.

[Giantdeathrobot]

 

Well it's just that it seems people think the moment a Qunari disobey an order , it makes him or her Tal Vashoth on the spot .

That's not how it works.

Tallis disobey orders multiple times , and she got stunk in some kitchen as a result , not made Tal Vashoth.

 

The Vidassala would do more than disobey orders in the course of ultimately doing her duty. An unsanctioned attack is not something the Qun takes lightly, as we saw with the Arishok.

 

Regardless, Weekes did not say she wasn't Tal-Vashoth. He went more broadly, and said she wasn't a rogue agent or an offshoot. I think that, when the Arishok decided to sack Kirkwall, he went rogue without going full-on Tal-Vashoth (albeit if he had failed to recover the Tome and somehow survived the events at the Viscount's Keep, I wouldn't be surprised if that would have been his fate). It's wasn't his mission, thus why he was disavowed afterwards.

 

Weekes specifically says that this is not what happens here. The Vidassala is not a rogue operative, not an offshoot. She is bona fide Qunari trying to start a war in the name of the Qunari with a big Q. The entire point of this section of the interview is that Iron Bull would only ever have betrayed you if the Vidassala was genuine. He doesn't dance around words. he doesn't say ''well, she wasn't Tal-Vashoth, but not really legit either''. No. She's the real deal. Because Bull is a highly informed spy who knows what's up, and would only follow the real deal.

 

I know this isn't going to stop Dai from trying to shove his fanfiction down every possible rabbit hole. But to me Weekes's wordswould make absolutely zero sense if the Viddasala wasn't a rogue agent or an offshoot, but was "just" disobeying orders in a brazen way that would heavily embarrass the Qunari if she was ever discovered. It makes no sense that Weekes would specifically rule out those words but then write what is pretty much a textbook rogue agent. 

[Almostfaceman]

Well it's just that it seems people think the moment a Qunari disobey an order , it makes him or her Tal Vashoth on the spot .

That's not how it works.

Tallis disobey orders multiple times , and she got stunk in some kitchen as a result , not made Tal Vashoth.

 

Eh, yeah. This is where the "kind of" comes in. Disobeying an order is by definition "going rogue". You may just get slapped on the wrist, congratulated, or executed for it later but the act itself is still not authorized. 

 

Weekes just tells us straight out the whole thing is authorized. 

 

I'm not even sure why he did. It probably would have been a little more fun to leave things muddied. But whatever, he said what he said. 

[The Hierophant]

You guys are troopers.

[thats1evildude]

Well it's just that it seems people think the moment a Qunari disobey an order , it makes him or her Tal Vashoth on the spot .

That's not how it works.

Tallis disobey orders multiple times , and she got stunk in some kitchen as a result , not made Tal Vashoth.

 

This isn't quite the same thing as rescuing a few slaves, which is what got Tallis demoted.