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[midnight tea]

I'll go ahead and guess you must be in love with me, since you always comment on my posts.

Thank you, my dear, but sadly I must let you know I'm engaged. Maybe in another life. Who knows. 

 

Lol, what are you smoking? I'm not even the one who responds to you that often. Plus, I don't fall in love with guys who have their head crammed so deep in their posterior that even their sarcasm sounds pretentiously inept.

 

 

Weekes made a statement - reproduced by Almostfaceman a few posts above - that clearly shows the idea of Vidassala's group being considered a rogue faction was a strong one. As he puts it, the team had doubts about turning them into an official invasion force. Weekes made it clear that the devs ONLY decided to go for a full Qunari invasion after much deliberation. So the main idea didn't favor an official invasion, but a rogue faction acting in the South.

 

Oh hon... Weekes starts his response with the statement that they've kicked around different ways to do it. The wording itself indicates that it was done during pretty early stage of writing, because more than likely they didn't "kick around" a major plot point like that during more advanced writing or production stages.

 

What's more, during GDC talk Weekes went in-depth about plot points that went though revision process during later development stages and guess what: Viddasala being rogue wasn't one of them. He was talking about details, like giving Qunari the reason to be in Deep Roads, which turned to creating their own templars, which later transformed to super-Sareebas - and it was done entirely in the mindset that yes, the Qunari are indeed preparing an invasion (and since they were defeated by mages before they needed something to counter that, hence lyrium mining and creating Sareebas super-weapons). It's easy to deduct from this that that Vidassala being rogue never really made it from Writer's Pit to the game.

 

Plus, no - he didn't say that they've decided to go with full Qunari invasion after much deliberation; he only said that for a while they've tried to talk themselves into it, but guess what - it didn't work for them. What's more, Weekes said that they "thought about it long and hard" not in context of Viddasala's team being rogue, but how to write this thing to not kill off Bull (even if death is optional) since it makes harder to bring him back. THAT was a particular problematic point they might have written themselves into a corner during earlier game iterations; the fact that they want to introduce Qunari threat in DLC in order to set up a large Qunari presence in future game was never really under question.

 

And you'll note that eventually they've decided to sacrifice Bull (and make life harder for themselves in case they're planning to bring IB back as more than just a cameo) both for the sake of good story moment AND because the Qunari invasion plot won hands down over any pretenses that Viddasala's group was any sort of offshoot.

 

By taking into account how the Viddasala's actions are atypical to a Qunari - actively using foreign magic (eluvians and crossroads) to solve a problem - and even contradict one of the principles of the Qun philosophy - to see all magic as dangerous -, it's safe to assume the rogue faction premise was the main option for the devs to go with. The game pretty much makes that obvious, since Viddasala's group didn't act as though theywere commanding a Qunari invasion. They were carrying out a secret mission: to track down Solas. After all, he was the reason behind the creation of the Breach, which was the of the Qunari's main cause for concern and responsible for them taking more direct action in the South.

 

Atypical? Dude, Viddasala's division's name translates to "Dangerous Purpose". In Trespasser itself Bull explains that it's their job to find ways to curb magic - plus, the tactic of fighting fire with fire is totally within perimeters of Qunari logic.

 

Also - LOL... you know, it's kind of ironic that you've underline your most erroneous assumption with red, Mr Academic.... No, Viddasala's original mission was NOT tracking down Solas; their original mission was to research ways to strengthen the Veil! You can find a codex about this in Vir Dirthara: http://dragonage.wik...isk_of_Saarebas

 

The Inquisitor even comments on it: "These are Viddasala's papers. She brought mages here to research strengthening the Veil. It explains why the Qunari thought it was worth camping here."

 

What's more, Viddasala might have gone after Solas when all her plans were undone by Inquisition, but the Qunari only seemed to care about Fen'Harel and his 'agent' when he began meddling with their affairs. You may note from that codex that Viddasala apparently doesn't link the elven mage who created the Veil with Fen'Harel. A lot of her presuppositions about Solas seem to have been made on the spot - like her assumption that Inquisition is willingly cooperating with 'agent of Fen'Harel' to undo her mission.

 

With that said, even if the original objective of her mission was strengthening the Veil or whatever else, what makes you think that that objective couldn't have been changed, or planned alongside (Viddasala after all oversees the whole branch, and we know that there are branches within that branch - her team deals both with attempts to curb magic as well as re-educating people), especially if Viddasala's research led her to eluvians that connected her to vital points on Southern map?

She even states clearly to Inquisitor that it was their actions - and the Southern leadership not eliminating them after job done - what prompted them to speed up their invasion plans. And she happened to have the exact tools to help with that.

 

 

Therefore, no matter how much one tries to defend it, the Viddasala wasn't leading an invasion. She was leading a secret operation. And one that had NOTHING to do with an official invasion. She was LEADING AN INVESTIGATION. And one that, at some point, the devs decided to mingle with a secret takeover to try and make it look like some travesty of an official invasion. But the whole thing was so poorly done that one looks at Operation Dragon Breath and wonders just wtf the Qunari thought they were up to. 

 

Er... I don't think anybody here claims that she was leading an invasion ... well, except Dai Grepher perhaps, who claims she's gone rogue(ish?) and thinks she can take South basically on her own. No - the idea is that Viddasala was leading a secret mission to sneakily strike the Southern leadership BEFORE the official invasion in order to plunge it into chaos again and make the whole invading business that much easier.

 

And how it was poorly done? If it wasn't for Solas who tipped Inky about Qunari plan, their operation would proceed without a hitch; gaatlok was already spread around in various crucial places in Southern Thedas, including Winter Palace and Denerim. The whole thing shows that the Qunari are dangerous and clever opponents who can kick below the belt and who we should be wary of, because it was only thanks to near-divine intervention that their march to victory was stopped, or at the very least - delayed.

 

Also - not that many people were really that much WTF about the whole thing as your'e trying to make it. Most people who seem to be confused are those who either have some elaborate headcanons or can't get facts straight.

 

 

Like I said before, the team shouldn't have started the development of the DLC BEFORE having a clear idea in mind of what the premise was going to be. They didn't. Which is why we're here, hunting down random statements, wasting our time trying to figure out what dev A, B or C really meant when talking about the damn DLC.

 

This is just silly. For most people here what Viddasala was doing was hardly ever a source of confusion. There's not really much of figuring out of what dev A, B or C said - if you actually read the thread you'll notice that most of people just keep being baffled by few people's continuous attempt to deny what was clearly stated in interviews and stick to this thread because it's like a high-speed train collision - it's awful, but you can't look away ...

 

Needless to say your claim that the team messed up their premise has hardly any basis whatsoever. The fact that they've juggled ideas at one point or another hardly proves anything other than they discussed through and tested many angles before they confirmed that this or that premise makes most sense and holds most punch and after they figured it out, they stuck to it pretty much all across the production. That's actually a GOOD thing.

[robertthebard]

I'll go ahead and guess you must be in love with me, since you always comment on my posts.
Thank you, my dear, but sadly I must let you know I'm engaged. Maybe in another life. Who knows. 
 
Weekes made a statement - reproduced by Almostfaceman a few posts above - that clearly shows the idea of Vidassala's group being considered a rogue faction was a strong one. As he puts it, the team had doubts about turning them into an official invasion force. Weekes made it clear that the devs ONLY decided to go for a full Qunari invasion after much deliberation. So the main idea didn't favor an official invasion, but a rogue faction acting in the South.

If you mean "it's the opposite of this", then you're absolutely correct. What it actually says is that they tried to make it into a rogue faction to keep IB from turning on the Inquisitor, and couldn't do it.
 

By taking into account how the Viddasala's actions are atypical to a Qunari - actively using foreign magic (eluvians and crossroads) to solve a problem - and even contradict one of the principles of the Qun philosophy - to see all magic as dangerous -, it's safe to assume the rogue faction premise was the main option for the devs to go with. The game pretty much makes that obvious, since Viddasala's group didn't act as though theywere commanding a Qunari invasion. They were carrying out a secret mission: to track down Solas. After all, he was the reason behind the creation of the Breach, which was the of the Qunari's main cause for concern and responsible for them taking more direct action in the South.
 
Therefore, no matter how much one tries to defend it, the Viddasala wasn't leading an invasion. She was leading a secret operation. And one that had NOTHING to do with an official invasion. She was LEADING AN INVESTIGATION. And one that, at some point, the devs decided to mingle with a secret takeover to try and make it look like some travesty of an official invasion. But the whole thing was so poorly done that one looks at Operation Dragon Breath and wonders just wtf the Qunari thought they were up to. 
 
Like I said before, the team shouldn't have started the development of the DLC BEFORE having a clear idea in mind of what the premise was going to be. They didn't. Which is why we're here, hunting down random statements, wasting our time trying to figure out what dev A, B or C really meant when talking about the damn DLC.

Saarebas say hello. We didn't learn about them in Trespasser, they were introduced and explained in DA 2. Not only are they a part of Qunari forces, they even have designated handlers. I understand that the tendency on the BSN is to ignore "inconvenient details" in order to make a theory work, but the information we have contradicts what you're trying to say. For example, what investigation requires the bombing of all the leaders of Southern Thedas? Was it a threat assessment operation, or a precursor to an invasion? We have Weekes telling us that the Qunari are going to invade, and that they're going to own it. Frankly, I'll take that over some head canon any day.

They had a clear idea, it just disagrees with what your idea of the Qun(ari) is, and so, they must be wrong, because your head canon should take priority to the story. The fact that a lot of us in this thread had already surmised that this wasn't a rogue group speaks volumes about how much we didn't need confirmation, but it's sort of nice to have it be the official stance on the issue: The Qunari were indeed preparing to invade. Solas' spies caught them out, and he opted to expose them, or they would have been successful. No head canon required, it's all in the DLC, if one isn't wearing blinders in order to keep their head canon working.

[Dai Grepher]

What part of Trespasser? Think about my argument. I'm sure you'll be able to figure out my answer.

You think me a mind-reader do you? I can certainly guess...

All of it? Well if that's your answer then you are as wrong as can be, since we fought her at NO point in Trespasser, more's the pity.

Then you link my conversation about the Arishok going rogue. Which is irrelevant, since I acknowledge Weekes made it clear that everything the Qunari do in Trespasser is not an offshoot, or a mistake, or anything that the Qunari are going to slap around anyone under their command for. Please pay attention.

I was paying attention. There was no point about the Arishok. This began with my statement, "...a real Qunari acting without authorization". Quoted and replied to by pdusen, who wrote, "I can't get past the fact that you think this is a thing." To which Reznore57 wrote that it is kind of a thing, and used the example of Tallis. He also stated that the Viddasala's case would be a far more serious issue. Then you quoted Reznore57 and stated, "It's kind of a thing from an 'in the moment' story player perspective. It's not a thing when the developer comes straight out and tells you what's going on." Reznore57 replied that it seems to him that people think the moment a Qunari disobey an order it makes him or her Tal Vashoth on the spot, and that this isn't how it works. He again refers to Tallis.

And this is where your "Eh, yeah" post comes in.

So there was no discussion about the Arishok in this chain of replies. This side discussion arose out of a point about Viddasala, and you were referring to Viddasala when you claimed Weekes said she wasn't rogue.

So again I ask you, at what point in the scenario in which Viddasala hides everything from the Triumvirate did she disobey an order?

Of course we know the context of "the Qunari" in Weekes statement and video. The only person so far that seems to lack an understanding of this context is you.

That Weekes meant the Qunari as a society is nothing but the opinion of those on your side.

That makes me think, was Tevinter included in the Dragon's Breath plan? No doubt Tevinters brought Eluvians to their Imperium, after looting the remains of Elvhenan. Even Duncan in DA:O mistakenly believes the mirror from the Dalish Origin to be from Tevinter. However, I always got the impression the plan was for the South alone.

I doubt the Triumvirate was privy to the eluvian network, and I doubt Viddasala could reach any mirror in Tevinter, nor would she want to. Appearing in the heart of enemy territory is unwise when your enemy has its eluvians well-guarded. She would want to go after eluvians that are just sitting around collecting dust because their owners are ignorant of their purpose. It also seems that Viddasala could only go to where each eluvian led. She could not redirect their connections.

I wonder if you're right and the objective was to invade the Imperium all along, but we know from history that it wouldn't be the first time the Qunari waged war against all of Thedas at the same time. In 10 years they conquered most of the Imperium, Rivain and Antiva, and attacked the Free Marches. And it took more than 85 years for Southern Thedas to mount an organized response in the form of the new Exalted Marches, and they hadn't the excuse of saying "sorry, we're recovering from a Blight, several civil wars and a supernatural catastrophe, and all our leaders were killed in a surprise attack".

But that was when the Qunari first arrived. They were at full strength back then, and yet they still could not conquer the entire South, nor could they topple Tevinter. Fast-forward to the present. The South is stronger than it was back then, they have recovered from the Blight and the Breach, and magical research has advanced even more since then. The Qunari have remained mostly stagnant, with the same technology as before. All that's happened is the rest of the world has caught up to the Qunari while they've been spinning their wheels on Seheron fighting Tevinter. So has Tevinter, for that matter, been stagnating because of its ongoing war with the Qunari. But all the other nations have advanced. Technology, wealth, magic, population growth, etc.

So what's my point? The point is that the Qunari are as strong, or a little stronger than they were ages ago when they first invaded, while the South is much stronger than it was. An invasion now would be an even greater failure than the first.

No wonder the Qunari believe the South is in good need of guidance. They struggle even to defend their own interests.

The Qunari would think the same of the South regardless, I would suspect. But in the alliance worldstate the Triumvirate entrusts many missions to the Inquisition, and Bull confirms that they are pleased with the results of sealing the Breach and defeating Corypheus. Invasion is always going to be on the table, but they aren't going to invade until they are ready. They were not ready in Trespasser.

I'm wondering the same thing. In order for your premise to be correct, she must have been disobeying orders, since she's acting on her own, so go ahead and lay out the orders she disobeyed, along with the sources for that information, preferably from codex entries in game, as opposed to head canon of events that never transpired.

None.

The premise of this scenario is that she was acting covertly, with the Triumvirate having no knowledge of her actions. At most, she only went against policy. She did not disobey any direct orders, or at least none that were shown in the game.

In her mind she was fulfilling her role of stopping dangerous magic, which she interpreted the Inquisitor's magic to be. So she took her role to an extreme.

As for the policy violations, she attacked allies, the Inquisitor and Hissrad. But if it was for the purpose of stopping dangerous magic, she felt it justified. Also, trying to start a war with the South. Not really a policy violation, since war is always the plan, just at a much later date and only when the Triumvirate decides unless the South attacks first. Also, feeding lyrium to saarebas, but she justified it as having them hold back the Fade, as stated in her letter to the viddathari in the Shattered Library. Also, bringing red lyrium into the Darvaarad when the Triumvirate explicitly wanted it contained in the South. But again, she might justify this as studying red lyrium in order to learn how to stop it or destroy it.

But at no point that I saw was she given a direct order from a superior that she disobeyed.

Note: At this point, I'm going to have to insist on actual sources that demonstrate she was rogue. If you can't provide them, I'm going to continue asking until you do. Nothing that you've provided to date demonstrates this, and is, in fact, contrary to what Weekes has said in the interview in post one of this thread. If you don't have anything, perhaps it's time for you to admit it, and move on.

Weekes didn't say she was or was not rogue. I also did not claim she was definitely rogue or not. I only claimed she was not authorized.

If she was rogue, it does not contradict Weekes' statement, which referred only to the Qunari we fought in the game. We did not fight Viddasala.

As for whether she was rogue or not, that is all up to Weekes' definition of a rogue. He might see her as acting on what she genuinely thought was her purpose, and thus not a rogue despite breaking the Qunari society's policy. Or he might see her as rogue, but this would not change the fact that the Qunari we fought were not rogue and were just following what they thought was a demand of the Qun.

My personal opinion on what Viddasala was is irrelevant to the discussion, which is whether she was authorized or not.

No, no, the argument has morphed. Viddasala was a true Qunari, not a rogue. All parties are now, somehow, in agreement with the topic title.

I was never in disagreement with it. I merely pointed out how Weekes' comment does not contradict the fact that Viddasala was unauthorized.

My argument this whole time was that your side is confusing "not a rogue group" with "Viddasala was authorized by the Triumvirate to attack the South". These two things are not the same.

Freaking what.
 
Are you next going to tell me Britain didn't fight WW2 because Churchull did not sucker-punch Hitler himself?

No, my point is that Weekes was referring to the Qunari we fought in Trespasser as being real Qunari. We did not fight Viddasala. So his statement does not extend to her. He only said the Qunari we fought were not a rogue group. That says nothing of Viddasala's status or whether she was authorized or not.

[Dai Grepher]

Weekes made a statement - reproduced by Almostfaceman a few posts above - that clearly shows the idea of Vidassala's group being considered a rogue faction was a strong one. As he puts it, the team had doubts about turning them into an official invasion force. Weekes made it clear that the devs ONLY decided to go for a full Qunari invasion after much deliberation. So the main idea didn't favor an official invasion, but a rogue faction acting in the South.

Good point, and I think midnight tea's point is that this was during the brainstorming process. It isn't as if they created the game around the idea that they were a rogue group and then changed it later after the story structure was already in place, like how the different races were added as playable after the game was created around a human protagonist. However, I also understand your point. The prospect of them being not real Qunari was strongly considered, and was only discarded because it didn't feel meaningful enough to them. But I do think the end result was a compromise. They were real Qunari, part of the Ben-Hassrath, but they weren't authorized. So not rogue, but not sanctioned either. A repeat of the Arishok, in essence.

By taking into account how the Viddasala's actions are atypical to a Qunari - actively using foreign magic (eluvians and crossroads) to solve a problem - and even contradict one of the principles of the Qun philosophy - to see all magic as dangerous -, it's safe to assume the rogue faction premise was the main option for the devs to go with. The game pretty much makes that obvious, since Viddasala's group didn't act as though theywere commanding a Qunari invasion. [b]They were carrying out a secret mission: to track down Solas. After all, he was the reason behind the creation of the Breach, which was the of the Qunari's main cause for concern and responsible for them taking more direct action in the South.

It does seem that the rogue aspect was implemented in a way, yes.

Therefore, no matter how much one tries to defend it, the Viddasala wasn't leading an invasion. She was leading a secret operation. And one that had NOTHING to do with an official invasion. She was LEADING AN INVESTIGATION. And one that, at some point, the devs decided to mingle with a secret takeover to try and make it look like some travesty of an official invasion. But the whole thing was so poorly done that one looks at Operation Dragon Breath and wonders just wtf the Qunari thought they were up to.

I'm not sure if the Triumvirate authorized her to track down Solas. It seemed to me that Solas just appeared and started disrupting what Viddasala was doing. It's unknown if she always planned to attack the South or if she only decided after seeing it was Solas who attacked. Perhaps Solas made Viddasala think the South was colluding to unleash dangerous magic upon the entire world, and perhaps she decided to attack the South based on that misinformation. That would certainly make Trespasser's story more interesting, but I can't find any solid evidence that this definitely happened.

Like I said before, the team shouldn't have started the development of the DLC BEFORE having a clear idea in mind of what the premise was going to be. They didn't.

Well, I think they had the "real Qunari" plot figured out before they started development, but you are right that they changed some things during production. The video midnight tea linked to shows that they originally had Qunari templars, then they changed it to feeding lyrium to saarebas, and even added a line from Hissrad saying that Viddasala would never do that. So it was a bit mixed up there, and Weekes also admitted that they changed some aspects of the ending based on feedback from beta testers.

[Dai Grepher]

Lol, what are you smoking? I'm not even the one who responds to you that often. Plus, I don't fall in love with guys who have their head crammed so deep in their posterior that even their sarcasm sounds pretentiously inept.

Wow, you two argue like a married couple.
 

Oh hon... Weekes starts his response with the statement that they've kicked around different ways to do it. The wording itself indicates that it was done during pretty early stage of writing, because more than likely they didn't "kick around" a major plot point like that during more advanced writing or production stages.

I agree. It seems Weekes indicates that this was in the first stage of production. But you should notice that Weekes and co. did change the plot midway regarding the idea of Qunari templars. First they were going to have Qunari templars, then they changed it to feeding lyrium to saarebas. This would necessarily have an effect on any plan to make them "real Qunari", because Weekes also stated that the Qunari society has a policy in which saarebas are suppressed from all magic. So these Qunari were going against the teaching of their society. This means they were likely acting without authorization, unless Par Vollen suddenly changed its hundreds of years old policy on a whim.
 

What's more, during GDC talk Weekes went in-depth about plot points that went though revision process during later development stages and guess what: Viddasala being rogue wasn't one of them.

He didn't mention it to the audience, but that doesn't mean it wasn't one of the issues they went over again.

Also keep in mind that Weekes made no clear statement about Viddasala or what they planned for the authorization of Dragon's Breath. It's possible that they went from "rogue group" to "real Qunari being led by an unauthorized leader". It's also possible they went from "rogue group" to "real, authorized Qunari" to "real Qunari led by an unauthorized Viddasala" when they changed the plot from Qunari templars to saarebas super-weapons.
 

He was talking about details, like giving Qunari the reason to be in Deep Roads, which turned to creating their own templars, which later transformed to super-Sareebas - and it was done entirely in the mindset that yes, the Qunari are indeed preparing an invasion (and since they were defeated by mages before they needed something to counter that, hence lyrium mining and creating Sareebas super-weapons). It's easy to deduct from this that that Vidassala being rogue never really made it from Writer's Pit to the game.

No, he said nothing about the Triumvirate or the Qunari society planning to invade. The original context was to use Qunari templars during an invasion to combat the South's mages, but this idea was cut. Which means, the idea of an official invasion, if there ever was one, was also cut. This was then changed to saarebas super-weapons.

Now, would the Triumvirate authorize saarebas super-weapons? According to Weekes they wouldn't. In the same video he stated that Qunari society suppresses saarebas to magic. So it seems that the writers took an alternate path here, to where Viddasala was doing things outside of what the Triumvirate would authorize. They might authorize Qunari templars, but not saarebas super-weapons. And why would they? What tactical advantage would saarebas super-weapons provide? The South has templars to combat their saarebas, and the Qunari still have nothing to combat the South's mages.
 

Plus, no - he didn't say that they've decided to go with full Qunari invasion after much deliberation; he only said that for a while they've tried to talk themselves into it, but guess what - it didn't work for them. What's more, Weekes said that they "thought about it long and hard" not in context of Viddasala's team being rogue, but how to write this thing to not kill off Bull (even if death is optional) since it makes harder to bring him back. THAT was a particular problematic point they might have written themselves into a corner during earlier game iterations; the fact that they want to introduce Qunari threat in DLC in order to set up a large Qunari presence in future game was never really under question.

Not sure what you're claiming here. But all Weekes said was that this was meant to set up the Qunari for future storylines, that they thought long and hard about making the Qunari in Trespasser a rogue group but decided against it, and in that case it made no sense to them to have a Qun loyal Bull not turn on you. He made no claim about Viddasala being authorized or not, the Triumvirate approving this or not, or any official Qunari invasion. The intended action was to start a war, which is different from launching an invasion.
 

And you'll note that eventually they've decided to sacrifice Bull (and make life harder for themselves in case they're planning to bring IB back as more than just a cameo) both for the sake of good story moment AND because the Qunari invasion plot won hands down over any pretenses that Viddasala's group was any sort of offshoot.

They decided to put The Iron Bull in the "probably won't return" category, but that in no way implies that a plot of an authorized Viddasala or official invasion won hands down. Also, it was never my claim that the Qunari we fought in the DLC was a rogue group or offshoot.

Weekes said their first idea was to have them be a rogue group or offshoot, which could just mean Vashoth or Tal-Vashoth, possibly working to damage the Qunari society. So they changed this to a real Viddasala leading real Qunari. But Weekes never said she was authorized to do this. The game itself presents evidence that she was not, and the Triumvirate and Ben-Hassrath disavow her actions. So it isn't like Weekes made it clear in his statements or the game that this was an official Qunari invasion attempt that the Triumvirate approved of.
 

Atypical? Dude, Viddasala's division's name translates to "Dangerous Purpose". In Trespasser itself Bull explains that it's their job to find ways to curb magic - plus, the tactic of fighting fire with fire is totally within perimeters of Qunari logic.

Fire with fire, but not magic with magic. Their plan has always been to fight magic with fire, as in cannons, warriors, assassins, etc. You wrote yourself, it's the Viddasala's job to curb magic, not encourage it among saarebas. Hissrad points that out as well.
 

Also - LOL... you know, it's kind of ironic that you've underline your most erroneous assumption with red, Mr Academic.... No, Viddasala's original mission was NOT tracking down Solas; their original mission was to research ways to strengthen the Veil! You can find a codex about this in Vir Dirthara:

While I agree it probably wasn't to track down Solas, it wasn't to research the Veil either. Trying to strengthen the Veil was Viddasala's idea, and she got this idea from learning of Fen'Harel's legends in the Vir Dirthara. The Triumvirate couldn't have authorized that.
 

The Inquisitor even comments on it: "These are Viddasala's papers. She brought mages here to research strengthening the Veil. It explains why the Qunari thought it was worth camping here."

Yes, she brought them there, not that the Triumvirate sent them there. And clearly that comment refers to the Qunari that actually camped there. So again, this all refers to the Qunari we fight in the game, not the Qunari who are supposed to be running things from Par Vollen.
 

What's more, Viddasala might have gone after Solas when all her plans were undone by Inquisition, but the Qunari only seemed to care about Fen'Harel and his 'agent' when he began meddling with their affairs. You may note from that codex that Viddasala apparently doesn't link the elven mage who created the Veil with Fen'Harel. A lot of her presuppositions about Solas seem to have been made on the spot - like her assumption that Inquisition is willingly cooperating with 'agent of Fen'Harel' to undo her mission.

Which could have been corrected had she been connected with the rest of the Ben-Hassrath, as well as Hissrad. But she wasn't. She was operating in secret without anyone else her division knowing about it.

[Dai Grepher]

With that said, even if the original objective of her mission was strengthening the Veil or whatever else, what makes you think that that objective couldn't have been changed, or planned alongside (Viddasala after all oversees the whole branch, and we know that there are branches within that branch - her team deals both with attempts to curb magic as well as re-educating people), especially if Viddasala's research led her to eluvians that connected her to vital points on Southern map?

I know this was to ModernAcademic, but I explained this before. Waging war, overseeing an invasion attempt, or dictating the operations of multiple assassinations is not the role of a Viddasala. Those are roles for the generals within the Antaam. We see no such generals in Trespasser.

She even states clearly to Inquisitor that it was their actions - and the Southern leadership not eliminating them after job done - what prompted them to speed up their invasion plans. And she happened to have the exact tools to help with that.

She was lying. Not only was there an Exalted Council called to do exactly that, but the Triumvirate expressed approval with the Inquisition's work. They kept the alliance, and even gave the Inquisition various new missions that were better suited to it rather than the Ben-Hassrath.

Er... I don't think anybody here claims that she was leading an invasion ... well, except Dai Grepher perhaps, who claims she's gone rogue(ish?) and thinks she can take South basically on her own.

This is what the game states. She was the only high-ranking agent we saw in Trespasser. I agree that her leading them is absurd, but this is my point. The Triumvirate would not entrust such an operation to her alone. They would assign her roles suited to her purpose, and they would assign various other agents and generals to other roles. An Antaam general would have been the one leading the troops. An agent appointed by the Arigena would have been overseeing the production of gaatlok in the Darvaarad. The Dangerous Actions branch would have had Arvaarads controlling the saarebas, and they would have been working with the Antaam soldiers where needed.

Also, Epler clearly referred to the "Qunari leader" being at the end of the game. So yes, she was leading them, without authorization.

No - the idea is that Viddasala was leading a secret mission to sneakily strike the Southern leadership BEFORE the official invasion in order to plunge it into chaos again and make the whole invading business that much easier.

She also said that the invasion would take place even though Dragon's Breath failed. She lied. There never was any invasion planned. Viddasala was trying to provoke the South into war with Par Vollen, because she knew that Par Vollen was not interested in an invasion of the South at that time. Viddasala believed invasion was necessary. The Triumvirate did not, and the Triumvirate knew better. But Viddasala would not accept that. So she launched her own secret mission that not even the Triumvirate was aware of.

She knew she couldn't return to Par Vollen after all she had done. So she threw her life away attacking Solas, knowing full well what her fate would be.

And how it was poorly done? If it wasn't for Solas who tipped Inky about Qunari plan, their operation would proceed without a hitch; gaatlok was already spread around in various crucial places in Southern Thedas, including Winter Palace and Denerim.

Because the plan was sloppily implemented. It was in the process of being spread around, but it wasn't set and ready to go. Solas' agent stopped the viddathari agent, but so what? Who is to say a real Inquisition agent wouldn't have spotted the same thing? Who is to say guards in Denerim or any other court would not have spotted it? Who is to say the gaatlok would have been successful in collapsing structures? Who is to say each leader would be in danger at the same time? And even if all leaders were killed at once (except the Hero King/Queen of Ferelden) that would just mean their generals would have taken command and restored order. When Conobar was killed by Flemeth, Conobar's general, Sarim (I think) Cousland, took over the Teyrnir.

Also, when it became clear that the Inquisition discovered the plot, Viddasala went ahead with the plot anyway. She should have at least postponed the attack against the Winter Palace until after all the other locations were hit.

The whole thing shows that the Qunari are dangerous and clever opponents who can kick below the belt and who we should be wary of, because it was only thanks to near-divine intervention that their march to victory was stopped, or at the very least - delayed.

Supposition. And there was no invasion force even if Dragon's Breath had been successful. So when you look at the facts, Dragon's Breath was only meant to start a war with Par Vollen. That is, provoke the South into going to war with Par Vollen.

This is just silly. For most people here what Viddasala was doing was hardly ever a source of confusion. There's not really much of figuring out of what dev A, B or C said - if you actually read the thread you'll notice that most of people just keep being baffled by few people's continuous attempt to deny what was clearly stated in interviews and stick to this thread because it's like a high-speed train collision - it's awful, but you can't look away

Regardless of what you think, the game shows texts stating that the Triumvirate had no knowledge of Viddasala's actions, and that she was disavowed. You dismiss this as subterfuge, but this requires you to create a conspiracy theory and apply it to the storyline. You are rejecting what the game tells us, or interpreting it in an alternative way. So don't try to make this out to be some simple or clear issue. The possibility of Viddasala being unauthorized was presented by the game itself. You can't blame fans for arguing in favor of that possibility with canon evidence. And you can't blame fans for pointing out that Weekes' statements do not contradict this possibility.

Needless to say your claim that the team messed up their premise has hardly any basis whatsoever. The fact that they've juggled ideas at one point or another hardly proves anything other than they discussed through and tested many angles before they confirmed that this or that premise makes most sense and holds most punch and after they figured it out, they stuck to it pretty much all across the production. That's actually a GOOD thing.

I agree that juggling ideas doesn't indicate sloppiness, but Trespasser is indeed sloppy in all aspects for other reasons.

[Mistic]

But that was when the Qunari first arrived. They were at full strength back then, and yet they still could not conquer the entire South, nor could they topple Tevinter. Fast-forward to the present. The South is stronger than it was back then, they have recovered from the Blight and the Breach, and magical research has advanced even more since then. The Qunari have remained mostly stagnant, with the same technology as before. All that's happened is the rest of the world has caught up to the Qunari while they've been spinning their wheels on Seheron fighting Tevinter. So has Tevinter, for that matter, been stagnating because of its ongoing war with the Qunari. But all the other nations have advanced. Technology, wealth, magic, population growth, etc.

So what's my point? The point is that the Qunari are as strong, or a little stronger than they were ages ago when they first invaded, while the South is much stronger than it was. An invasion now would be an even greater failure than the first.

 

I have to disagree with that point. The South hasn't been this weak in centuries.

 

Orlais, who could conquer Ferelden back in the past, is now incapable of taking back lands from Nevarra and has been weakened by a civil war. Ferelden is still recovering from the Blight, and the Free Marches have many Fereldan refugees. Navarra is on the brink of civil war. The mages, who were fundamental in pushing back the Qunari in the past, have seen their numbers cut down in the Mage-Templar War and will end up divided no matter what you do. And all of them have suffered from the Breach, the rifts, the demon attacks and the war against Corypheus.

 

On the other hand, the Qunari got stronger.

 

Were the Qunari, at their best when they attacked Thedas? Not at all. They started their campaign just 2 years after arriving to Par Vollen, so they basically started a world war just with the forces they had at the beginning plus what they could manage in the occupied lands. By now, however, Par Vollen is not a recently conquered province, but a fully developed and populous Qunari Land. Contrary to the first wars, they've learned to use mages in war, and Tresspasser has given us a taste of what their Saarebas could do if given the chance. Compare that to the absolute lack of advancement in the South to steal or understand Qunari technology, and the Qunari end up being the less stagnant side.

[IllustriousT]

She was lying.

 

What canon basis supports this?

[Sifr]

I know this was to ModernAcademic, but I explained this before. Waging war, overseeing an invasion attempt, or dictating the operations of multiple assassinations is not the role of a Viddasala. Those are roles for the generals within the Antaam. We see no such generals in Trespasser.

 

Actually, the role of espionage and assassination would be fall in the purview of the Ben-Hassrath, not the Antaam.

 

The reason that the Viddasala would have be the one to carry out such an operation in this instance, rather than an senior agent who deals in assassinations primarily is because this plan required the use of Eluvians, Lyrium and Gaatlok, all of which she is the foremost expert at dealing with.

 

She was lying. Not only was there an Exalted Council called to do exactly that, but the Triumvirate expressed approval with the Inquisition's work. They kept the alliance, and even gave the Inquisition various new missions that were better suited to it rather than the Ben-Hassrath.

 

Supposition and as IllustriousT pointed out, what basis in canon does this have?

 

Secondly, Viddasala wasn't talking about the Inquisition, she was talking about the threat that the Inquisitor themselves poses and expressing that they should not have been kept alive after the Breach was sealed. The future of the Inquisition isn't important to the Qunari, it's a organisation that can have any leader going forward... but the Inquisitor has the unique magical glowing hand that can tear open the Fade, a threat they pose and always have done as far as they are concerned.

 

This is what the game states. She was the only high-ranking agent we saw in Trespasser. I agree that her leading them is absurd, but this is my point. The Triumvirate would not entrust such an operation to her alone. They would assign her roles suited to her purpose, and they would assign various other agents and generals to other roles. An Antaam general would have been the one leading the troops. An agent appointed by the Arigena would have been overseeing the production of gaatlok in the Darvaarad. The Dangerous Actions branch would have had Arvaarads controlling the saarebas, and they would have been working with the Antaam soldiers where needed.

 

Except that the Arishok was shown to be the sole individual leading troops in Kirkwall, yet had numerous contingents under his command (including Saarebas and Arvaraad), as well as had access to restricted materials such as Saar-Qamek and Gaatlok. Surely by your logic, the Triumvirate would not have let the Arishok have the authority to command any of the troops he had in DA2 that didn't exist in his chain of command?

 

So this means that either there were indeed agents of these branches in Kirkwall and the Darvaarad, who despite being outside their chain of command normally were placed under the leadership of the Arishok and Viddasala temporarily for the duration of the mission... or you're wrong?

 

Also, Epler clearly referred to the "Qunari leader" being at the end of the game. So yes, she was leading them, without authorization.

 

Once again, you have failed to provide sufficient evidence why it was not authorised.

 

Just saying it was unauthorised over and over again, does not make it so.
 

She also said that the invasion would take place even though Dragon's Breath failed. She lied. There never was any invasion planned. Viddasala was trying to provoke the South into war with Par Vollen, because she knew that Par Vollen was not interested in an invasion of the South at that time. Viddasala believed invasion was necessary. The Triumvirate did not, and the Triumvirate knew better. But Viddasala would not accept that. So she launched her own secret mission that not even the Triumvirate was aware of.

 

Really, because the epilogues making it clear the Qunari are still gearing up their war machine seems somewhat contrary to that assessment? Furthermore, doesn't this fly in the face of Weekes calling this act an invasion attempt and the Qunari starting a war?

 

She knew she couldn't return to Par Vollen after all she had done. So she threw her life away attacking Solas, knowing full well what her fate would be.

 

Or she died attempting to fulfill her demand of the Qun, that bade her end the threat posed by magic and the agents of Fen'Harel. Qunari are willing to die in service of the Qun if it so requires them to do so, so do you honestly think a zealot like the Viddasala would just have walked away?
 

Regardless of what you think, the game shows texts stating that the Triumvirate had no knowledge of Viddasala's actions, and that she was disavowed. You dismiss this as subterfuge, but this requires you to create a conspiracy theory and apply it to the storyline. You are rejecting what the game tells us, or interpreting it in an alternative way. So don't try to make this out to be some simple or clear issue. The possibility of Viddasala being unauthorized was presented by the game itself. You can't blame fans for arguing in favor of that possibility with canon evidence. And you can't blame fans for pointing out that Weekes' statements do not contradict this possibility.

 

And regardless of what you think, the text is written in such a manner that it can easily be read as the Triumvirate covering their own backsides by disavowing knowledge of her actions because they got caught red-handed.

 

You are rejecting what Weekes tells us the writers intended from the start and instead choosing to instead come up with your own interpretation that takes the Qunari's word at face value. All despite the fact this is a group who who have been shown to be as liberal with the truth as Varric was during his interrogation by Cassandra in DA2, such as when he claimed he had no knowledge of Hawke's location.

[thats1evildude]

The Viddasala likely was throwing her life away out of a refusal to admit her failure, or fear of the potential consequences.

[Sifr]

The Viddasala likely WAS throwing her life away out of a refusal to admit her failure, and fear of the potential consequences.

 

True, it's very similar to how the Arishok seemed to want Hawke to defeat him when he challenged him to a duel, as dying in honourable combat was preferable to going home in disgrace and facing execution for his actions.

[thats1evildude]

And how Sten assisted the Warden because he thought the Warden was doomed to failure. Better to die on a battlefield than a cage.

[Sifr]

Saarebas also committed suicide via self-immolation after it became clear via Arvaraad that the Qun demanded his death, allowing him to die with some sense of dignity and purpose, rather than as a sacrificial pawn in Petrice's schemes or being derided as Tal-Vashoth.

[QueenCrow]

 

 

Also - not that many people were really that much WTF about the whole thing as your'e trying to make it. Most people who seem to be confused are those who either have some elaborate headcanons or can't get facts straight.

 

 

Well, I'm not going to act all hindsight-smart and declare that I knew the Viddasala was sanctioned by the Qun triumvirate all along.  I thought she was rogue.  Why?  I pay too much attention to misleading and, ultimately inconsequential codices.  

 

http://dragonage.wik...ers_and_Replies

 

Way to own it, Weekes.

 

[IllustriousT]

Well, I'm not going to act all hindsight-smart and declare that I knew the Viddasala was sanctioned by the Qun triumvirate all along.  I thought she was rogue.  Why?  I pay too much attention to misleading and, ultimately inconsequential codices.  

 

http://dragonage.wik...ers_and_Replies

 

Way to own it, Weekes.

 

I don't think that these are inconsequential, but I understand why you would believe that after Weekes and Epler's statements.  A lot of information regarding the role of the Qunari in Trespasser is up for speculation. When you have information like this letter, it causes confusion. With that said, when Weekes explains that the Qunari in Trespasser is supposed to represent The Qunari, all evidence in Trespasser must then be reevaluated - not to disprove Weekes, but to gain new insight with new information. 

 

Apart from a few members, the consensus here is that this letter represents the Triumvirate's attempt to deny involvement in the attack on the Exalted Council due only to Viddasala's failure. [Think Mission Impossible].

[QueenCrow]

I don't think that these are inconsequential, but I understand why you would believe that after Weekes and Epler's statements.  A lot of information regarding the role of the Qunari in Trespasser is up for speculation. When you have information like this letter, it causes confusion. With that said, when Weekes explains that the Qunari in Trespasser is supposed to represent The Qunari, all evidence in Trespasser must then be reevaluated - not to disprove Weekes, but to gain new insight with new information. 

 

Apart from a few members, the consensus here is that this letter represents the Triumvirate's attempt to deny involvement in the attack on the Exalted Council due only to Viddasala's failure. [Think Mission Impossible].

 

Thanks.  I understand your point regarding plausible deniability, and had that letter been delivered to Josephine, plausible deniability would have immediately come to mind.  That makes some sense.   Instead, we find the letter crumpled up in the library of a Qunari stronghold as if it has, perhaps, been intercepted and met with an angry response from the Viddasala and/or one among her group.  Given the outside-of-game confirmation that the Viddasala was definitely not a rogue agent (per OP), the placement of that codex must've been just another nuanced level added to the deception - the Viddasala purposefully left the crumpled note on a desk in her stronghold knowing that the Inquisition would break in, snoop around the desks, find it, and maybe go ahead and deliver it to Josephine.

[IllustriousT]

Given the outside-of-game confirmation that the Viddasala was definitely not a rogue agent (per OP), the placement of that codex must've been just another nuanced level added to the deception - the Viddasala purposefully left the crumpled note on a desk in her stronghold knowing that the Inquisition would break in, snoop around the desks, find it, and maybe go ahead and deliver it to Josephine.

 

 

...and this is one of the reasons why this thread is 37 pages long. We only have speculation and possibilities regarding that letter - and other codex as well.

[midnight tea]

Well, I'm not going to act all hindsight-smart and declare that I knew the Viddasala was sanctioned by the Qun triumvirate all along.  I thought she was rogue.  Why?  I pay too much attention to misleading and, ultimately inconsequential codices.  

 

http://dragonage.wik...ers_and_Replies

 

Way to own it, Weekes.

 

Pardon, but this is why you should probably pay attention to other evidence, not just a piece of it - the scale of operation, for example. The fact that apparently "rogue" group has access to the only Qunari source of lyrium - you think that a nation so obsessed with control wouldn't notice dissidents grabbing their only lyrium mine? Add to that the fact that IB betrays us if he's not Tal-Vashoth, after his visit on Par Vollen. The fact that there are Qunari spies within Inquisition that managed to smuggle gaatlok to Winter Palace and other places in the South we cannot absolutely confirm were connected with eluvians (most gaatlok in WP was brought with Inquisition, not smuggled through WP eluvian, which eventually was locked in a secure room and under 24h observation) strongly suggesting that this was a much bigger operation that must've involved a lot more cooperation than what's available to Viddasala through a section of eluvians they've managed to open. Then there are statements made by Viddasala or Solas. And, of course, epilogue slides that clearly state that "With the Dragon's Breath disrupted and any hope of a swift victory dashed, the Qunari retreated back to the North" and now they're preparing to invade Tevinter. You'll also note that the official disavowal happened ONLY if Inquisition was allied with Qunari.

 

It's not really that hard to conclude that just based on DLC alone - a lot of people here got the exact same conclusion I've had after Trespasser, long before the interview. So you can't just point to ONE piece of apparently misleading evidence and claim that it's all there is. The DLC obviously trusts that we can piece things on our own without being explicitly told things. And it's not like that with just Viddasala or Qunari - it's like that with many other plot points throughout all of DA.

[robertthebard]

Thanks.  I understand your point regarding plausible deniability, and had that letter been delivered to Josephine, plausible deniability would have immediately come to mind.  That makes some sense.   Instead, we find the letter crumpled up in the library of a Qunari stronghold as if it has, perhaps, been intercepted and met with an angry response from the Viddasala and/or one among her group.  Given the outside-of-game confirmation that the Viddasala was definitely not a rogue agent (per OP), the placement of that codex must've been just another nuanced level added to the deception - the Viddasala purposefully left the crumpled note on a desk in her stronghold knowing that the Inquisition would break in, snoop around the desks, find it, and maybe go ahead and deliver it to Josephine.

Ironically, my first thought upon finding that letter was that she was trying to forge one to send, giving her bosses an out. As pointed out though, it was far from the only piece of the puzzle, and thus, was easy, for me, to dismiss it as plausible deniability.

[Sifr]

 

Apart from a few members, the consensus here is that this letter represents the Triumvirate's attempt to deny involvement in the attack on the Exalted Council due only to Viddasala's failure. [Think Mission Impossible].

 

Precisely, the denial here by the Triumvirate cannot be taken as credible evidence that it wasn't authorised, since the sheer size and scale of the operation could not have been conducted in secret without attracting attention from the rest of the Qunari.

 

The scenario that the Qunari expect us to believe is as incredulous as if say... in the aftermath of the Bay of Pigs fiasco, rather than owning up to it, the official line by the US government had been to play dumb and invoke complete deniability. So Kennedy would have chosen to claim the failed invasion of Cuba and attempted overthrow of Castro's government, despite how it'd have benefited them had it succeeded, was just a rogue operation conducted by the CIA that no-one else in their government had any knowledge of whatsoever!

[thats1evildude]

Thanks. I understand your point regarding plausible deniability, and had that letter been delivered to Josephine, plausible deniability would have immediately come to mind. That makes some sense. Instead, we find the letter crumpled up in the library of a Qunari stronghold as if it has, perhaps, been intercepted and met with an angry response from the Viddasala and/or one among her group. Given the outside-of-game confirmation that the Viddasala was definitely not a rogue agent (per OP), the placement of that codex must've been just another nuanced level added to the deception - the Viddasala purposefully left the crumpled note on a desk in her stronghold knowing that the Inquisition would break in, snoop around the desks, find it, and maybe go ahead and deliver it to Josephine.

Or, you know, the Viddasala was given a copy of the correspondence between Josephine and the Triuumverate.

Crazy, I know. Who ever needs copies of official documents?

[IllustriousT]

Or, you know, the Viddasala had a copy of the correspondence between Josephine and the Triuumverate.

 

Crazy, I know. Who ever needs copies of official documents?

 

I tend to agree with this.

 

The letter had the Inquisitions seal, and when letters from one official to another are sent, it is the sender's seal that is placed on the document. I speculate that the Triumvirate must have placed their own seal on the document to Josephine, and that the letter in Viddasala's possession is the original or a copy with the Triumvirate's response relayed to her for accuracy.

 

The Triumvirate must have broken the Inquisition's seal to read and respond, why would they seal it again with the Inquisition's seal and send it back for Viddasala to intercept - I can't get it to make sense.

[QueenCrow]

@midnight tea - re: post #918

 

Please see post #914 regarding paying too much attention to misleading codices intentionally placed in game.

 

 

Or, you know, the Viddasala was given a copy of the correspondence between Josephine and the Triuumverate.

 

Crazy, I know. Who ever needs copies of official documents? What kind of government bureacracy wastes time making double or triplicate records of things?

 

You know, you've got a point.  Without copies of official documents, what would Ben-Hassrath agents have to crumple up and leave behind on their desks for people to find?  I should have thought of that.

[thats1evildude]

Who says she left it on her desk for the Inquisitor to find?

1) Josie sends letter.
2) Triuumverate responds. "Viddasala who?" It's fake, of course, just a way of covering their asses.
3) Vidassala is either given a copy or has an agent placed high enough to intercept it. She is miffed about the implication that the Triuumverate is hanging her out to dry if she fails and crumples up note.
4) Inquisitor breaks into Darvaarad, finds letter.

[IllustriousT]

 

You know, you've got a point.  Without copies of official documents, what would Ben-Hassrath agents have to crumple up and leave behind on their desks for people to find?  I should have thought of that.

 

I think the better question is - Why is the Inquisition digging in someone else's trash?

 

I don't think the letter was important anymore to Viddasala - the relevant information was transferred, and she tossed it.