1580 réponses à ce sujet

[IllustriousT]

Well, someone was mentioning the Inquisition seal being on it. To be honest I don't remember the details of Trespasser very well since I've only played it once, at launch, and in a rush.

 

The Inquisition's seal is on the original document sent by Josephine to the Triumvirate.

 

The interception of this document from the Triumvirate by Viddasala is a possibility.

The interception of this document before reaching the Triumvirate is  a possibility (Viddasala could be forging the response).

The document being a copy or the original with a separate response to the Inquisition, also a possibility. 

 

 It's confusing.

 

 

Having read that codex again, I want to note that "Letter and Replies" is actually multiple documents. The first is Josie's letter to the Triumverate. There are several accompanying messages written in Qunlat and finally the Triuumverate's response to Josie, which was crumpled up.

 

I did notice that they were separate documents, which is why I speculated a few pages back about possible additional orders she may have received - but were "conveniently" unavailable for us.  Reading it summarized here makes me wonder about the forgery possibility. It would answer why the Inquisition's seal is on it, why Viddasala has it, and if she is testing the forgery, why it was crumpled. Yet, it doesn't answer why...why intercept it on its way to the Triumvirate when so much evidence [in my mind] points to her following orders? 

[thats1evildude]

Simple. As I've theorized before, the Triuumverate was being two-faced. They told the Viddasala she had their full support and authorization, but denied any involvement with her to Josephine so as to save face/maintain their alliance with the Inquisition. But one of the Viddasala's agents intercepted the message or passed her on a copy. Or perhaps they even gave her a copy to fully impress on her the consequences for failure.

 

This is partly why she killed herself attacking Solas; she knew there was no returning to Seheron.

[IllustriousT]

Simple. As I've theorized before, the Triuumverate was being two-faced. They told the Viddasala she had their full support and authorization, but denied any involvement with her to Josephine so as to save face/maintain their alliance with the Inquisition. But one of the Viddasala's agents intercepted the message or passed her on a copy. Or perhaps they even gave her a copy to fully impress on her the consequences for failure.

 

This is partly why she killed herself attacking Solas; she knew there was no returning to Seheron.

 

Yea, sorry...I am in complete agreement with you.

 

I was playing devil's advocate and trying to make sense out of the forgery option, because I noticed a few people felt that it was a valid option as well. The question was kind of aimed generally. 

 

...but thanks for responding  .

[Mistic]

Maybe they have been weakened in recent years, but they are still stronger than they were ages ago. Also, the point is that they were weaker during the Breach or right after it was closed. Why didn't the Qunari attack right after Corypheus was defeated?

 

You can't invade just right after thinking about it. You need preparations, and that's true even for our modern armies that can deploy troops in a matter of hours. Given that it was impossible to predict when Corypheus would be defeated, any preparation that the Qunari made had to wait. Then add that the Inquisitor was needed to close the last rifts and that a golden chance to weaken the South even more appeared, and it makes sense they took their time.

 

Also, two years is very little, even compared to modern military and intelligence planning. It's not as if the causes for Southern weakness are going to be solved in just that time.

 

Nevarra is no slouch though, and Orlais has more to worry about than just Nevarra. Any move Orlais makes must be done with Tevinter and Ferelden in mind.

 

Orlais is so weakened after the civil war that even warmonger Gaspard is said to be unable to attack Ferelden as he wished in the war table mission 'Delicate Negotiations', despite it practically being his main plan for Orlais in The Masked Empire.

 

Ferelden has recovered from the Blight.

There will always be more mages.

 

In both cases, it's a matter of demography. Ferelden has recovered its economy activity and more mages will appear, of course, but right at this moment great numbers were lost in the war and they can't be replaced until at least a generation passes. And again, mages are divided.

 

Nevarra is facing civil war? If so, a Qunari invasion would only prevent such a war by uniting them against the greater threat.

 

You realize that didn't happen in Ferelden against the Blight.

 

That would be their best then.

 

So when they were only newcomers with their fleets and no power base, proper economy or intelligence service they were stronger than now?

 

The saarebas are complete jokes. They can't even cast spells. They just use raw power and summon elements. Saarath could summon a few demons, which could turn on the Qunari.

 

That's still more firepower than they had first. It's said it was only thanks to mages that Andrastian armies could overcome Qunari technology. Given that now the Qunari have their technology plus some destruction mages, while the South still has only the mages, the upper hand is theirs again.

 

Viddasala was tasked with legitimate tasks suited to her role, but then she repurposed those resources to her own covert operation.

 

That yes, that could change the game completely... as long as the South manages to crack the formula. I agree however that the moment the Qunari lose their technological advantage, their fate is sealed. Maybe it will happen in DA4? Although that would mean that the Tevinter Imperium would get that advantage first... Interesting.
 

[Dai Grepher]

Hmm... So the Arishok is the leader of the military, and yet he can be unauthorized?

Yes, and he told Hawke that it was not a demand of the Qun that he conquer the city or attempt to reeducate its populace.

I thought the Triumvirate were more or less equals in authority. So either the Arishok can do whatever he wants, but the Qunari will collectively denounce him if he fails (likely) or the Ariqun is the supreme ruler of the Qunari.

The Ariqun and Arigena sent the Arishok to recover the Tome of Koslun, the the Arishok likely also agreed with this action. He was not sent to conquer a southern city or possibly provoke a war against Par Vollen. So that is all the Arishok is allowed to do. He had some leeway with how he went about recovering the Tome, but trying to take Kirkwall had nothing to do with recovering the Tome.

The Inquisition's seal is on the original document sent by Josephine to the Triumvirate.

Correct.

The interception of this document from the Triumvirate by Viddasala is a possibility.

Yes, and the most likely event based on the evidence.

The interception of this document before reaching the Triumvirate is  a possibility (Viddasala could be forging the response).

If so, that would be a violation in itself. The Triumvirate should decide how to respond to such letters. However, this isn't possible. If Viddasala was forging the letter, she either would have stopped writing mid-way when she decided to ball it up, or she would have sent it. The reply was finished, yet not sent. It was balled up. Also, the letter denied involvement. Viddasala claims that the Triumvirate will attack the South regardless. She would be giving two contradicting responses here. And why answer for the Triumvirate if this is an authorized mission and they are capable of replying themselves?

The document being a copy or the original with a separate response to the Inquisition, also a possibility.

Even if it is, Viddasala had no way of knowing that. By balling it up instead of delivering it as intended is an act against the Triumvirate's will.

I did notice that they were separate documents, which is why I speculated a few pages back about possible additional orders she may have received - but were "conveniently" unavailable for us.

That would be sloppy on BioWare's part, giving us only a bit of information but not all of it for a current plot. It isn't like this is lore or anything, this is the current storyline.

Reading it summarized here makes me wonder about the forgery possibility. It would answer why the Inquisition's seal is on it, why Viddasala has it, and if she is testing the forgery, why it was crumpled. Yet, it doesn't answer why...why intercept it on its way to the Triumvirate when so much evidence [in my mind] points to her following orders?

A forgery would not need to be discarded. Neither Josephine nor anyone in the Inquisition would be able to tell. And if she had been trying forgeries, there would have been multiple balled up notes with the same message.

Simple. As I've theorized before, the Triuumverate was being two-faced. They told the Viddasala she had their full support and authorization, but denied any involvement with her to Josephine so as to save face/maintain their alliance with the Inquisition. But one of the Viddasala's agents intercepted the message or passed her on a copy.

Official Inquisition seal proves it is the original letter from Josephine. Also, no reason to intercept message to Josephine.

Or perhaps they even gave her a copy to fully impress on her the consequences for failure.

That doesn't make sense. If they wanted to send a message to Viddasala, they could have just done so. Sending Josephine's letter is of no use to Viddasala. It is only of use to Josephine, to let her know that the Triumvirate read her letter. Balling up the Triumvirate's letter makes no sense if Viddasala was authorized and knew that she would be disavowed if the Inquisition found out.

[Dai Grepher]

This is partly why she killed herself attacking Solas; she knew there was no returning to Seheron.

Par Vollen. Seheron is the island where Tevinter and Par Vollen are constantly at war. Anyway, why wouldn't she be allowed to return to Par Vollen and give a report on the threat Solas posed? If she dies, who will warn them? Or, if she wanted to die that badly, why not fall back and wait for Solas to leave so she can attack the Inquisitor instead?

You can't invade just right after thinking about it. You need preparations, and that's true even for our modern armies that can deploy troops in a matter of hours.

But Viddasala claimed the Qunari made up their minds when they saw the Breach appear in the sky. That was three years before Trespasser.

Given that it was impossible to predict when Corypheus would be defeated, any preparation that the Qunari made had to wait.

Then add that the Inquisitor was needed to close the last rifts and that a golden chance to weaken the South even more appeared, and it makes sense they took their time.

Why not make the preparations and then keep everything in place? Also, they would have a good idea of when to strike since Hissrad would be there giving reports.

And why would the Inquisitor need to be outside the Qun to close rifts?

Also, two years is very little, even compared to modern military and intelligence planning. It's not as if the causes for Southern weakness are going to be solved in just that time.

Especially not with Par Vollen helping the South survive the Venatori and Red Templars. Besides, according to your side, the point of Dragon's Breath was to create that weakness, was it not?

Orlais is so weakened after the civil war that even warmonger Gaspard is said to be unable to attack Ferelden as he wished in the war table mission 'Delicate Negotiations', despite it practically being his main plan for Orlais in The Masked Empire.

Or perhaps he realized it was a pipe-dream. That he wished to attack Ferelden doesn't mean he was ever able to. And just because he can't doesn't mean Orlais would be weak against a Qunari invasion. Defending the homeland is different from invading another country. It requires a lot more in resources, and recent attacks from the Venatori have only made the Southern nations increase their defenses.

In both cases, it's a matter of demography. Ferelden has recovered its economy activity and more mages will appear, of course, but right at this moment great numbers were lost in the war and they can't be replaced until at least a generation passes. And again, mages are divided.

Hold on. According to Asunder only half of the mages rebelled. So at worst the mage population was only halved, or they lost a little more than half. But of those mages that rebelled, many of them ended up surviving. That small castle at the southern end of the Hinterlands map for instance. Most of the mages that followed Fiona can be mostly killed, if you saved the templars, but the bottom line is that mages are still a major defense in the South, and these at least have some battle sense now. Mages aren't divided depending on how you played or who is Divine. Vivienne puts down any hint of rebellion, and keeps the mages in line while offering some expanded privileges.

But if this chaos were true at the end of Inquisition, it would only be a case for attacking the South at that point. Not waiting two years for the South to recover.

You realize that didn't happen in Ferelden against the Blight.

Because Loghain didn't believe that it was a true Blight, and he was paranoid about Orlesians. A Qunari invasion is indisputable.

So when they were only newcomers with their fleets and no power base, proper economy or intelligence service they were stronger than now?

Yes. They had time to build their base on Par Vollen before heading south to Rivain and Antiva. They were still beaten back. And now, their fleets and troops are being wasted against withered Tevinter, while the South gets stronger than they were ages ago.

That's still more firepower than they had first. It's said it was only thanks to mages that Andrastian armies could overcome Qunari technology. Given that now the Qunari have their technology plus some destruction mages, while the South still has only the mages, the upper hand is theirs again.

The idea of destruction mages is speculation. This topic puts Viddasala and her super-weapon saarebas in question. If Par Vollen truly had no knowledge or involvement with Viddasala's actions, they they are still suppressing their saarebas as before. In which case, all you would have to do is kill their arvaarad, then let the saarebas wander free until some new arvaarad shows up to terminate them for being away too long. And the saarebas will never be a match for true mages, because they never learn any spells. One good Mana Clash will take care of them.

But I am sure they have been building more ships. So what? The south has ships as well, and more mages than before based on population growth alone.

The Qunari do not have the upper hand against the entire South if it unites, but even if it had the upper hand, that doesn't mean it would win a world war, especially if it invaded all countries at once as Viddasala claimed they would. This would only spread their armies too thin.

That yes, that could change the game completely... as long as the South manages to crack the formula. I agree however that the moment the Qunari lose their technological advantage, their fate is sealed. Maybe it will happen in DA4? Although that would mean that the Tevinter Imperium would get that advantage first... Interesting.

It's already happening. Dagna, Valta, Dworkin and his brother (who helped fortify Vigil's Keep), all have helped the surface in some way technologically. Avernus is unlocking the mysteries of the taint. The Circles are always researching new things, especially if Vivienne is Divine (she talks about using the Circles in this way to help the Inquisitor). But Tevinter seemed to be developing technologies as well. There were all kinds of contraptions and mysterious machines hidden all around in caves and such.

[thats1evildude]

You can't assume that Mana Clash even exists anymore. It hasn't appeared since DAO. Combat mechanics have changed.

The purpose of feeding the saarebas lyrium was to supercharge their abilities. Based on the saarebas we saw in Trespasser, I would say they were at least partly successful.

You realize that didn't happen in Ferelden against the Blight.

That didn't even happen in Orlais with Corypheus and the Breach.

[IllustriousT]

Even if it is, Viddasala had no way of knowing that. By balling it up instead of delivering it as intended is an act against the Triumvirate's will.
 

 

This is part of our previous discussion about my belief that it was a type of CC. Therefore, Viddasala would recognize how she came into possession of the documents with accompanying documents - most likely by messenger. She knows what they are and I don't think she prevented any intended delivery for Josephine. 

 

 

That would be sloppy on BioWare's part, giving us only a bit of information but not all of it for a current plot. It isn't like this is lore or anything, this is the current storyline.
 

 

Yet, all the information is not available or clear.

[Almostfaceman]

Solas isn't confused about who he's battling with in Trespasser. Here's what he says right before he turns the Viddi to stone and begins the ending dialogue with our Quizzy.

 

"Your forces have failed. Leave now, and tell the Qunari to trouble me no further." 

 

Which isn't surprising, the lead writer said this:

 

"We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it."

[ModernAcademic]

Yup, it's almost at 40 pages, people.

 

 

Can we try reaching 50?

[Mistic]

But Viddasala claimed the Qunari made up their minds when they saw the Breach appear in the sky. That was three years before Trespasser.

 

Viddasala's papers show us that what started was their plan to research the Veil. From that, the rest was born, including Dragon's Breath. Nevertheless, three years instead of two isn't a big difference, so my point stands.

 

And why would the Inquisitor need to be outside the Qun to close rifts?

 

Because the Inquisitor can always say 'no' and you can't gamble the entire fate of the world on thinking you will be able to turn someone. If you consider the option of forcing them to, first you will have to take care of the Inquisiton's very big army and agents that would rush to defend their boss. It would be very un-Qunari to waste lives and resources senselessly when you can let the Inquisitor do their thing before you kill them all.

 

Besides, according to your side, the point of Dragon's Breath was to create that weakness, was it not?

 

No, it wasn't. The South is weak, but as you say it's still strong enough to face an invasion. But if you had a way to make that weakness bigger? To tip the scales so much that total victory is possible? That's the point of Dragon's Breath, a chance you don't see in several lifetimes.

 

With no changes in the scenario, the best way to take advantage of that is to focus everything on Tevinter to make it finally fall, knowing very well that the South is neither interested nor has the energies now to help them... which is exactly what they decide at the end of Tresspasser.

 

Mages aren't divided depending on how you played or who is Divine. Vivienne puts down any hint of rebellion, and keeps the mages in line while offering some expanded privileges.

 

No. The mages will always be divided between the Circle and the College in Trespasser's epilogue, either because they were already at the end of DA:I or because the differences they had weren't solved at all. So much for choices.

 

Because Loghain didn't believe that it was a true Blight, and he was paranoid about Orlesians. A Qunari invasion is indisputable.

 

One may say the same of a Blight, and Nevarra would have reason to be paranoid of Orlesians (the previous war, their frontier problems, and yes, Nevarra was conquered by Orlais in the past too). The same you can say "that huge army of darkspawn isn't a real Blight, it's just some big raid", you can say "that Qunari fleet isn't really trying to invade, just raid the coast".

 

Interestingly, that's exactly what happened when the Arabs conquered Visigothic Spain. The king was disliked by many nobles, the Arabs weren't considered a big threat, just an expeditionary force trying to loot a bit, so when they landed the nobles abandoned the king and he suffered a massive defeat (wait, that sounds like Ostagar, maybe Bioware took the idea from history?).

 

Yes. They had time to build their base on Par Vollen before heading south to Rivain and Antiva.

 

2 years. You can't compare it with the 3 centuries they've spent developing Par Vollen by this point.

 

If Par Vollen truly had no knowledge or involvement with Viddasala's actions, they they are still suppressing their saarebas as before. In which case, all you would have to do is kill their arvaarad, then let the saarebas wander free until some new arvaarad shows up to terminate them for being away too long. And the saarebas will never be a match for true mages, because they never learn any spells. One good Mana Clash will take care of them.

 

Ah, but what if they did have that knowledge? Then Saarebas are even more dangerous than now.

 

As for Mana Clash, it has never been shown in-lore as this trump card that gameplay allows. It hasn't even appeared in the last two games, so either it's a very obscure spell that only a handful know, or it's very difficult to learn and use. Not unlike the risk of demon possession for mages other than our awesome PCs.

 

Can we try reaching 50?

 

Let's do it!

[BansheeOwnage]

Yes, and he told Hawke that it was not a demand of the Qun that he conquer the city or attempt to reeducate its populace.


The Ariqun and Arigena sent the Arishok to recover the Tome of Koslun, the the Arishok likely also agreed with this action. He was not sent to conquer a southern city or possibly provoke a war against Par Vollen. So that is all the Arishok is allowed to do. He had some leeway with how he went about recovering the Tome, but trying to take Kirkwall had nothing to do with recovering the Tome.

Yeah, but the Qunari love their to justify their insane troll logic, like how the Arishok justified attacking the city because it would make it easier to recover the tome. So, no, conquering the city isn't a Demand of the Qun (for some reason), but it makes fulfilling another Demand easier. I'm sure the Ariqun and Arigena would have no problem with that if he succeeded.

[Dai Grepher]

You can't assume that Mana Clash even exists anymore. It hasn't appeared since DAO. Combat mechanics have changed.

The purpose of feeding the saarebas lyrium was to supercharge their abilities. Based on the saarebas we saw in Trespasser, I would say they were at least partly successful.

That didn't even happen in Orlais with Corypheus and the Breach.

Why, do spells suddenly vanish from existence from game to game?

Yes, which we see with all mages who use lyrium as an item. So what? That doesn't mean Par Vollen authorized it, and it doesn't mean they will allow it after Viddasala tried it.

Sure it did. They just didn't bother negotiating for real until after Corypheus made an actual move. Before that it was all positioning and secrecy. They weren't even aware of the threat. When the threat was revealed, the real talks began, and the Inquisitor can broker a peace deal between all three people for the purpose of stopping Corypheus.
 

This is part of our previous discussion about my belief that it was a type of CC. Therefore, Viddasala would recognize how she came into possession of the documents with accompanying documents - most likely by messenger. She knows what they are and I don't think she prevented any intended delivery for Josephine.
 
Yet, all the information is not available or clear.

So Josephine's letter was the original, and there was a reply addressed to Josephine with it, and Viddasala somehow knew that the Triumvirate's response was a carbon copy sent to her? For that to work, the original letter should be a carbon copy as well. Josephine should get her original letter back with response, should she not? So why would they send the original Inquisition letter to Viddasala? Why not send her carbon copies of both? And again, why did they send Viddasala a message giving to Josephine? Why not give Viddasala direct instructions in this case? Why send Viddasala any written message, for that matter? Why not just have the messenger deliver a simple order by word of mouth?

What I mean is, if the scenario in which it was authorized is to exist as a possibility, BioWare isn't going to withhold evidence that it is possible, or not show it to you. If the evidence exist, then it should be there. They would present it and let you draw a conclusion from it. As it stands, the evidence indicates that it wasn't authorized. BioWare isn't going to leave evidence out of this that would indicate that it was authorized. They aren't going to take evidence out and then leave it to the players to fill in the blank, because how can they fill in the blank with any kind of accuracy?

Solas isn't confused about who he's battling with in Trespasser.

Assumption. Other dialogue responses show that Solas is confused about quite a few things.

Here's what he says right before he turns the Viddi to stone and begins the ending dialogue with our Quizzy.
 
"Your forces have failed. Leave now, and tell the Qunari to trouble me no further."

So what? That may have even been a taunt. Telling her to return to her homeland, knowing full well that she can't. Thus goading her into attacking.

In any case, there is no evidence that Solas knows if Viddasala was authorized or not.

Viddasala's papers show us that what started was their plan to research the Veil. From that, the rest was born, including Dragon's Breath. Nevertheless, three years instead of two isn't a big difference, so my point stands.

But Viddasala lied. She claimed the decision was made when the Breach appeared. So my point stands. Viddasala was lying.

Also, her note to those questioning her in the Vir Dirthara was of course brainwashing to get those dissenters back in line.

Because the Inquisitor can always say 'no' and you can't gamble the entire fate of the world on thinking you will be able to turn someone.

Then it could be said that you can't gamble with such power staying in the hand of bas. Better to convert this bas to the Qun to ensure that the world is saved from the Breach and Corypheus, and also the South is brought under the Qun. No reason to wait, except that the South can't be taken because of a lack of forces.

If you consider the option of forcing them to, first you will have to take care of the Inquisiton's very big army and agents that would rush to defend their boss. It would be very un-Qunari to waste lives and resources senselessly when you can let the Inquisitor do their thing before you kill them all.

So why not lure the Inquisitor into a trap, capture him, hold him, and then provide reeducation? The Inquisitor often went out with a party of four including himself. Why wait for the Inquisitor's army to build up even more?

No, it wasn't. The South is weak, but as you say it's still strong enough to face an invasion. But if you had a way to make that weakness bigger? To tip the scales so much that total victory is possible? That's the point of Dragon's Breath, a chance you don't see in several lifetimes.

But Viddasala said the invasion would happen anyway. Dragon's Breath was only to be the opening attack. She said the way of blades was coming. She lied. There was never any invasion set up. Par Vollen would have needed warships waiting off the coasts. They would need basecamps and supply lines. They would need to move in fast before any generals could take over command of the courts that were attacked. That's assuming everything works. But at no time was any such force observed by anyone in the game. At the end it seems that the South accepts the official story that Par Vollen did not authorize anything. Most seemed to blame the Inquisition and Solas for provoking the Qunari.

With no changes in the scenario, the best way to take advantage of that is to focus everything on Tevinter to make it finally fall, knowing very well that the South is neither interested nor has the energies now to help them... which is exactly what they decide at the end of Tresspasser.

Toppling Tevinter has been the plan for ages. It was the plan in Trespasser. It will be the plan in DA4. Viddasala was trying to start a war with the South as well, without the Triumvirate's authorization. The Triumvirate on the other hand wants to beat Tevinter first, build back up, and then take the South one country at a time until they work their way down the board. It makes no sense to spread all your forces over the entire South before your main enemy is beaten. The Qunari need to take the land first before marching south.

No. The mages will always be divided between the Circle and the College in Trespasser's epilogue, either because they were already at the end of DA:I or because the differences they had weren't solved at all. So much for choices.

Divine Vivienne keeps the College in line, and the College itself is just a group of clubs within the Circles. Equitarian, Isolationist, Libertarian, Lucrosian, Loyalist. I think under Divine Vivienne there is never any "Bright Hand", and especially not if you side with templars. So the Circles can be restored. Full strength? Probably not. But again, those who fought now have more experience. And with the rebellion out of the way, they can focus on more productive endeavors. And in any case, there are young mages discovering their powers all the time. Within those three years, the ranks could have increased by the hundreds across all of the South.

[Dai Grepher]

One may say the same of a Blight, and Nevarra would have reason to be paranoid of Orlesians (the previous war, their frontier problems, and yes, Nevarra was conquered by Orlais in the past too). The same you can say "that huge army of darkspawn isn't a real Blight, it's just some big raid", you can say "that Qunari fleet isn't really trying to invade, just raid the coast".

The Darkspawn didn't sign a piece of paper promising not to take aggressive action against the South. Nevarra knows that the Qunari don't raid, they invade. The Darkspawn just do whatever until an archdemon rises. Aggressive action by the Qunari means the Llomeryn Accords are off, which means the South is at war with Par Vollen again. This is why the Ariqun and Arigena publically disavowed the Arishok for his unauthorized actions. It's why they disavow Viddasala for her unauthorized actions.

2 years. You can't compare it with the 3 centuries they've spent developing Par Vollen by this point.

That just means they have expanded their population and forces, not advanced their technology. Also, the Qunari came from somewhere else when they first landed on Par Vollen. So they may have had support from that land while invading Rivain and Antiva.

I think we might be getting lost in the weeds though. The point is, Qunadar can't take the South even if all leaders were killed and no generals arose to replace them. Occupying the South and putting down rebellions would demand too many resources, and would leave the Qunari people vulnerable to attack from Tevinter.

Ah, but what if they did have that knowledge? Then Saarebas are even more dangerous than now.

What if Ferelden had Mass Effect spaceships? It's not going to happen. Saarebas will not be allowed to practice magic and hone their skills. And even if they did, they would just turn out like the Vashoth Inquisitor, basically the same as any mage in the South.

As for Mana Clash, it has never been shown in-lore as this trump card that gameplay allows. It hasn't even appeared in the last two games, so either it's a very obscure spell that only a handful know, or it's very difficult to learn and use. Not unlike the risk of demon possession for mages other than our awesome PCs.

Still exists. As do templars. So giving a bunch of magical bombs some lyrium juice to give them a 20 point increase to mana regen or magic, or whatever, isn't going to help the Qunari. At worst it will make the saarebas even more nuts and cause them to turn on the other Qunari like Saarath did momentarily.

[Dai Grepher]

Yeah, but the Qunari love their to justify their insane troll logic, like how the Arishok justified attacking the city because it would make it easier to recover the tome. So, no, conquering the city isn't a Demand of the Qun (for some reason), but it makes fulfilling another Demand easier. I'm sure the Ariqun and Arigena would have no problem with that if he succeeded.

At no time did he state that taking Kirkwall would make it easier to get the Tome back. He did it because he could not longer tolerate the corruption and insanity that he was witnessing. Besides, even if it had made it easier to get the Tome, taking a city would violate the Llomeryn Accords, which would mean the South would attack Par Vollen. Causing trouble for the homeland would be unacceptable.

[Hanako Ikezawa]

Yeah, but the Qunari love their to justify their insane troll logic, like how the Arishok justified attacking the city because it would make it easier to recover the tome. So, no, conquering the city isn't a Demand of the Qun (for some reason), but it makes fulfilling another Demand easier. I'm sure the Ariqun and Arigena would have no problem with that if he succeeded.

I think the Ariqun would, since the Arishok was also treating the incursion in Kirkwall to educate the people of Kirkwall, which isn't under his domain but the Ariqun's. Earlier he even says he is not equipped to teach, but that is clearly what he was doing with the nobles "You are blind. I will make you see.". 

[thats1evildude]

Why, do spells suddenly vanish from existence from game to game?

 

Things get retconned, like how templars require lyrium to use their powers. I suspect you will never see Mana Clash again because it was utterly broken.

[IllustriousT]

I'm...so...stubborn...can't...stop...

 

So Josephine's letter was the original, and there was a reply addressed to Josephine with it, and Viddasala somehow knew that the Triumvirate's response was a carbon copy sent to her? For that to work, the original letter should be a carbon copy as well. Josephine should get her original letter back with response, should she not? So why would they send the original Inquisition letter to Viddasala? Why not send her carbon copies of both? And again, why did they send Viddasala a message giving to Josephine? Why not give Viddasala direct instructions in this case? Why send Viddasala any written message, for that matter? Why not just have the messenger deliver a simple order by word of mouth?
 

Break-down of possible events regarding this letter:

 

• Josephine completes document to Triumvirate, Inquisition seal placed.
• Document sent by messenger to Triumvirate.
• Triumvirate creates a response to Inquisition as a separate document.
• Triumvirate document sent to Inquisition - Inquisition document not returned to sender.
• Triumvirate sends several documents to Viddasala:

1. Josephine's original document to ensure accurate transfer of information.
2.  A document with "several" incomprehensible message in Qunlat - which could be indicative of additional orders.
3.  A copy of their response to the Inquisition denying involvement to ensure accurate transfer of information.

 

This ensures that Viddasala understands the current situation.

 

If Bioware is using the medieval court as an representation to how documents are carried, transferred, etc. It would be unlikely that an official court document would be sent back to the sender with the reply. I believe the court would keep the original documents for their records, or to do with as they please. Scribes were tasked with creating copies, and due to this, forgeries and inaccurate information would unintentionally exist. It would make sense in this case to ensure absolute accuracy and send the original document to Viddasala for her to read by messenger who speaks her language and conveys this information. 

 

 

 

What I mean is, if the scenario in which it was authorized is to exist as a possibility, BioWare isn't going to withhold evidence that it is possible, or not show it to you. If the evidence exist, then it should be there. They would present it and let you draw a conclusion from it. As it stands, the evidence indicates that it wasn't authorized. BioWare isn't going to leave evidence out of this that would indicate that it was authorized. They aren't going to take evidence out and then leave it to the players to fill in the blank, because how can they fill in the blank with any kind of accuracy?
 

 

Your perception that she is unauthorized is validated by how you perceive the evidence. 

The perception that she is authorized is validated by how I perceive the evidence. 

 

Its just that simple. 

[Dai Grepher]

Things get retconned. I suspect you will never see Mana Clash again, because it was utterly broken.

Or it gets tweaked. Or a new defense is created to resist it. Or it only happens during scripted cinematic scenes. No reason to believe that it will be stricken from the canon.
 

Break-down of possible events regarding this letter:

• Josephine completes document to Triumvirate, Inquisition seal placed.
• Document sent by messenger to Triumvirate.
• Triumvirate creates a response to Inquisition as a separate document.
• Triumvirate document sent to Inquisition - Inquisition document not returned to sender.
• Triumvirate sends several documents to Viddasala:

• 
  
• Josephine's original document to ensure accurate transfer of information.
•  A document with "several" incomprehensible message in Qunlat - which could be indicative of additional orders.
•  A copy of their response to the Inquisition denying involvement to ensure accurate transfer of information.

Problem. Why wouldn't Josephine's document be returned to her to ensure accurate transfer of information to the one with the grievance? Accuracy should be spent on the one warning of full out war, don't you think?

Also, does the Viddasala have some reason to believe that the Triumvirate will give her a copy with inaccurate information? If not, why not just send her the copy of Josie's letter?

Another problem. This is what I mean by withheld evidence. You refer to several mysterious documents sent to Viddasala that we never get to see. But then how do you know such letters exist?

Similar problem with the Qunlat messages. Why aren't we allowed to translate these in the game? Why does BioWare deny us this if it were important? For example, a Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull should be able to read these to us on the spot. Or why can't we take this back with us and have Leliana translate? Or is this Qunlat simply a translation of the Triumvirate's response, or a translation of Josephine's letter, thus unimportant and not worth translating?
 

If Bioware is using the medieval court as an representation to how documents are carried, transferred, etc. It would be unlikely that an official court document would be sent back to the sender with the reply. I believe the court would keep the original documents for their records, or to do with as they please.

So BioWare would have the Triumvirate keep the letter for their records, but not keep the letter for their records? Seems like you are going against your own reasoning here.
 

Scribes were tasked with creating copies, and due to this, forgeries and inaccurate information would unintentionally exist. It would make sense in this case to ensure absolute accuracy and send the original document to Viddasala for her to read by messenger who speaks her language and conveys this information.

Why? Can't a messenger just say, "The Inquisition contacted the Triumvirate for an explanation, they disavowed you. Better hurry."?
 

Your perception that she is unauthorized is validated by how you perceive the evidence.

But this is what I'm talking about. I found a letter stating that the Triumvirate has no knowledge of her actions. So I have a basis for my theory. You on the other hand assume this is subterfuge, and you refer to unseen documents sent to Viddasala confirming that the Triumvirate did know, and yet we never get to see any of this evidence.

Your theory is based on what might possibly be. My theory is based on the evidence we see.
 

The perception that she is authorized is validated by how I perceive the evidence.

You are free to perceive it as you wish, but unless you have a canon basis for this, then it's just your speculation.

[The Baconer]

Does the state of authorization even matter when deciding how the Qunari should be treated?

[IllustriousT]

You are free to perceive it as you wish, but unless you have a canon basis for this, then it's just your speculation.

 

Yep...I never claimed otherwise, and that also applies to your claims.

 

My speculation about the letter is based on other evidence throughout Trespasser that Viddasala was acting with authorization, and Patrick Weekes statement that backs that up. 

 

The letter is only a small piece of the puzzle.

[In Exile]

The Triumvirate means the Qunari have 3 main leaders who all have to agree on an important decision for it to be "authorized".
They decided the Arishok would go south to get the tome of Koslun back , and nothing else.
They probably didn't agree on"oh yeah Ari you can invade if you're in a bad mood."
Doesn't mean the Arishok can't make any decision , that would be weird...but he probably can't decide all by himself when or where a full blown war with the South happens.

The reality is that there is a degree of discretion. The Arishok has a viable case that raising kirkwall was necessary to get the tome (Isabela fled with it). Indeed to the degree it gets close to being returned it is only because of his sacking the city.

[Dai Grepher]

Does the state of authorization even matter when deciding how the Qunari should be treated?

Yes. If it was authorized then they violated the Llomeryn Accords, and the South is free to declare an Exalted March and go to war with them. If it wasn't authorized, then there was no violation of the Accords and the South is still bound by them.
 

Yep...I never claimed otherwise, and that also applies to your claims.

I agree, which is why I backed my claims up with various canon facts.
 

My speculation about the letter is based on other evidence throughout Trespasser that Viddasala was acting with authorization, and Patrick Weekes statement that backs that up.

If you post this evidence I would be happy to discuss it. As for Weekes, I don't think his statements support the idea that Viddasala was authorized.
 

The letter is only a small piece of the puzzle.

It's a large piece, but yes, not the only piece.
 

The reality is that there is a degree of discretion. The Arishok has a viable case that raising kirkwall was necessary to get the tome (Isabela fled with it). Indeed to the degree it gets close to being returned it is only because of his sacking the city.

I remember Hawke having much more to do with it. Isabela doesn't care about Kirkwall.

[The Baconer]

Yes. If it was authorized then they violated the Llomeryn Accords, and the South is free to declare an Exalted March and go to war with them. If it wasn't authorized, then there was no violation of the Accords and the South is still bound by them.

No one is really bound by the Accords, least of all the Qunari. At best, they have shown a consistent lack of accountability and oversight regarding their agents, with potentially disastrous consequences for the South, we're it not for the South's aptitude in dealing with their bad apples for them. Or, they are simply traitorous, which I will believe now and forever. Either way, the results are the same.

How many times can "rogue agents" make attacks upon the South with no recompense? To believe that lasting peace can come from the Accords is utter idiocy. The Qunari must be shown the rod.

[Dai Grepher]

No one is really bound by the Accords, least of all the Qunari.

I didn't write that the Qunari were bound by the Accords. But the southern nations definitely are. If any one of them violates it, the Qunari are free to attack them, and possibly any other nation by default, and no southern nation is obligated to help that offending country.

At best, they have shown a consistent lack of accountability and oversight regarding their agents, with potentially disastrous consequences for the South, we're it not for the South's aptitude in dealing with their bad apples for them.

Consistent? As in, more than once? So, the Arishok. Who else? Viddasala?

Or, they are simply traitorous, which I will believe now and forever. Either way, the results are the same.

How many times can "rogue agents" make attacks upon the South with no recompense? To believe that lasting peace can come from the Accords is utter idiocy. The Qunari must be shown the rod.

How many times did "The Chantry" transgress against the Qunari in DA2? As far as I know, there have only been three significant transgressions against the South by Qunari. Sten killed Fereldans on a farm, but faced justice and confessed it was his doing alone (can be pardoned by Chantry mother and the Warden). The Arishok, who admitted he wasn't authorized to attack Kirkwall and was disavowed. And Viddasala, who was disavowed in all worldstates. Tallis, sort of, but no one cares about her.