1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Addictress]

As far as I know, there have only been three significant transgressions against the South by Qunari. Sten killed Fereldans on a farm, but faced justice and confessed it was his doing alone (can be pardoned by Chantry mother and the Warden). The Arishok, who admitted he wasn't authorized to attack Kirkwall and was disavowed. And Viddasala, who was disavowed in all worldstates. Tallis, sort of, but no one cares about her.

Yah, those are a lot of times. They're just 2 or 3 but they're big ones, and we only have 3 games.

[The Baconer]

I didn't write that the Qunari were bound by the Accords. But the southern nations definitely are.

We don't need to go any further than this excerpt, which goes to show just how worthless the treaty really is.

Consistent? As in, more than once?

Duh.

How many times did "The Chantry" transgress against the Qunari in DA2? As far as I know, there have only been three significant transgressions against the South by Qunari. Sten killed Fereldans on a farm, but faced justice and confessed it was his doing alone (can be pardoned by Chantry mother and the Warden). The Arishok, who admitted he wasn't authorized to attack Kirkwall and was disavowed. And Viddasala, who was disavowed in all worldstates. Tallis, sort of, but no one cares about her.

The state of being disavowed doesn't matter. It's a gesture that serves absolutely no one but, surprise, the Qunari. It cetain't won't provide the South any comfort when one of these bat****-unauthorized cows finally succeeds.

If the Qunari can't control their own people of authority, it's time to bring the Qunari under control. Or Thedas could just face the truth and admit the treaty was always a sham, and commit to the inevitable war.

[Illegitimus]

We don't need to go any further than this excerpt, which goes to show just how worthless the treaty really is.

 

 

Not really.  Both sides have violated the treaty in small ways, the Qunari more than the humans.  But when the treaty seriously falls apart then we see not just small incidents but a massive but inconclusive war which lasts for years and accomplish very little.  

[The Baconer]

Not really. Both sides have violated the treaty in small ways. But when the treaty seriously falls apart then we see not just small incidents but a massive but inconclusive war which lasts for years and accomplish very little.

The supreme leader of the Qunari military attempting a hostile takeover of a foreign city is not a small incident. The attempted assassination of the Divine and the monarchs of Orlais and Ferelden is not a small incident.

I'd like to see Thedas throw a few "small incidents" at the Qunari in kind.

[Dai Grepher]

Yah, those are a lot of times. They're just 2 or 3 but they're big ones, and we only have 3 games.

No it isn't. Sten's case was isolated, and he was low-ranking. Most who knew of it either died or stopped caring. And he either dies or is pardoned. The Arishok attacked a city, but it could be argued that he was provoked by Petrice and a few others. Doesn't justify his actions, but the Ariqun and Arigena disavowed him anyway because of how serious the issue could have been. That leaves only Viddasala as the truly questionable example. But she was disavowed and evidence points to her being unauthorized. So that's really only one offense from the Qunari. Maybe one and half. And this is over the course of 14 years, and each problem was resolved quickly.

We don't need to go any further than this excerpt, which goes to show just how worthless the treaty really is.

The Qunari can and will break it when they are ready, but not until they are ready. The South will not break it unless the Qunari do first. That is what makes it important.

Duh.

Okay, so are you admitting that Viddasala was unauthorized as was the case with the Arishok?

The state of being disavowed doesn't matter. It's a gesture that serves absolutely no one but, surprise, the Qunari. It cetain't won't provide the South any comfort when one of these bat****-unauthorized cows finally succeeds.

It provides the slight comfort that the Accords are still in place for the time being and that the South will not have to declare war against Par Vollen yet.

If the Qunari can't control their own people of authority, it's time to bring the Qunari under control.

No, it isn't. But the fact that the Triumvirate was duped by one of their lesser agents reflects poorly on them. The Viddasala's actions were an embarrassment for the Qunari either way. But this only means the Triumvirate will have greater oversight of their agents from now on.

Or Thedas could just face the truth and admit the treaty was always a sham, and commit to the inevitable war.

It wasn't a sham. It has kept all southern nations in line so they don't provoke the Qunari, and it has even had the effect of keeping the Qunari from attacking by giving them a strategic advantage that favors waiting, as compared to the constant conflict that embroils Tevinter.

[Dai Grepher]

The supreme leader of the Qunari military attempting a hostile takeover of a foreign city is not a small incident. The attempted assassination of the Divine and the monarchs of Orlais and Ferelden is not a small incident.

I'd like to see Thedas throw a few "small incidents" at the Qunari in kind.

But were they authorized? No. And that is what keeps the Accords in place.

Yeah sure, and then the Qunari consider it a violation of the Accords and show the South what small incidents really are in the form of various attacks, like what is happening against Tevinter.

[The Baconer]

The Qunari can and will break it when they are ready, but not until they are ready. The South will not break it unless the Qunari do first. That is what makes it important.

Important in that it highlights the stupidity and complacency of southern Thedas.

Okay, so are you admitting that Viddasala was unauthorized as was the case with the Arishok?

No, duh.

It provides the slight comfort that the Accords are still in place for the time being and that the South will not have to declare war against Par Vollen yet.

It's sloth. The Qunari are combatants, they'll never be anything less.

No, it isn't. But the fact that the Triumvirate was duped by one of their lesser agents reflects poorly on them. The Viddasala's actions were an embarrassment for the Qunari either way. But this only means the Triumvirate will have greater oversight of their agents from now on.

One should reasonably expect that to happen after the Arishok in Kirkwall. Of course, that would only matter if I believed she were truly unauthorized, which I don't.

It wasn't a sham. It has kept all southern nations in line so they don't provoke the Qunari, and it has even had the effect of keeping the Qunari from attacking by giving them a strategic advantage that favors waiting, as compared to the constant conflict that embroils Tevinter.

Yes, everyone who wanted a breather got one, but now it's time to mobilize once again. The only group who's gotten an advantage by waiting are the Qunari, and if they see great success in Tevinter, it'll only get worse.

[Dai Grepher]

Important in that it highlights the stupidity and complacency of southern Thedas.

Important in describing the current setting of Thedas, and what must happen for there to be a war between Par Vollen and the South. You can see it however you want, but I think the Llomeryn Accords are a good thing, provided the southern nations understand that the Qunari will break them when they are ready and to be prepared for it.

No, duh.

But here you wrote, "At best, they have shown a consistent lack of accountability and oversight regarding their agents, with potentially disastrous consequences for the South, we're it not for the South's aptitude in dealing with their bad apples for them."

http://forum.bioware...9#entry20214010

So are you at least admitting it's possible that the Triumvirate simply failed to properly oversee Viddasala, and this is why she was able to launch her own clandestine operation?

It's sloth. The Qunari are combatants, they'll never be anything less.

Not even if the Qun dominates the world and there is nothing left to struggle against? Also, what about female Qunari? They aren't combatants.

One should reasonably expect that to happen after the Arishok in Kirkwall. Of course, that would only matter if I believed she were truly unauthorized, which I don't.

Different cases. The Arishok was sent on a mission. They gave him what he needed. The mistake was in disallowing a return trip or requisition for more supplies and forces. The Triumvirate can correct this mistake by not sending the Arishok on such missions anymore, or allowing him to maintain contact with Par Vollen.

The Viddasala on the other hand was not sent on any mission. As far as the Triumvirate knew, she was merely fulfilling her legitimate role elsewhere. They knew nothing of her going beyond and outside of her role. This would be corrected by rotating the priests out periodically, or having inspectors come by to make sure proper procedures are being met. And this would apply to ALL agents, not just those sent on missions.

Yes, everyone who wanted a breather got one, but now it's time to mobilize once again. The only group who's gotten an advantage by waiting are the Qunari, and if they see great success in Tevinter, it'll only get worse.

How do you figure that only the Qunari benefited? The South also benefitted by not having to spend blood and treasure fighting the Qunari for ages.

But yes, if Par Vollen topples Tevinter then it will get worse for the South, but only when the Qunari are ready to attack. And that time is at a later date, not during Trespasser. I can't believe you still think the Triumvirate was even ready to attack the South at this point in the story.

[SweetTeaholic]

Wonder if we'll get to page 50

[The Baconer]

Important in describing the current setting of Thedas, and what must happen for there to be a war between Par Vollen and the South. You can see it however you want, but I think the Llomeryn Accords are a good thing, provided the southern nations understand that the Qunari will break them when they are ready and to be prepared for it.

It would be good if the southern kingdoms utilized in the same way the Qunari do. So fat it's only been used to suffer assault after assault with no recompense.

But here you wrote, "At best, they have shown a consistent lack of accountability and oversight regarding their agents, with potentially disastrous consequences for the South, we're it not for the South's aptitude in dealing with their bad apples for them."

So are you at least admitting it's possible that the Triumvirate simply failed to properly oversee Viddasala, and this is why she was able to launch her own clandestine operation?

No. I'm saying that in the hypothetical scenario in which that were true, the difference would be so infintesimal as to be completely irrelevant.

Not even if the Qun dominates the world and there is nothing left to struggle against?

That goal is the reason why they're all combatants, you clown. Every single one.

Different cases.

I don't care, because it doesn't matter.

How do you figure that only the Qunari benefited? The South also benefitted by not having to spend blood and treasure fighting the Qunari for ages.

It's blood to be paid at a later date, one of the Qunari's choosing which makes it even worse.

But yes, if Par Vollen topples Tevinter then it will get worse for the South, but only when the Qunari are ready to attack. And that time is at a later date, not during Trespasser. I can't believe you still think the Triumvirate was even ready to attack the South at this point in the story.

I don't think the Qunari will ever be as successful as they were during the Steel and Storm ages, but that doesn't change what they are, and what should be done to them. If they aren't ready for a war with the South, then by all means, that is the time to strike.

[robertthebard]

But were they authorized? No. And that is what keeps the Accords in place.

Yeah sure, and then the Qunari consider it a violation of the Accords and show the South what small incidents really are in the form of various attacks, like what is happening against Tevinter.

Citations needed.

We have Varric's word that the Arishok was acting outside of his operational orders. We do, however, have Patrick Weekes stating that a Qun loyal Iron Bull followed the Viddasala because she wasn't a rogue faction, or an offshoot, she was leading an actual precursor to war.

Also, didn't we have a quote from Origins earlier in this thread indicating that the Qunari didn't sign a treaty, they signed a piece of paper to make the Bas feel better?

Show me some codex entries that state that Trespasser wasn't authorized. Your typical "but my qunari wouldn't do that" isn't evidence of anything but headcanon.

[Sifr]

The Qunari don't view non-Qunari as people. It is not much of a stretch to say that they're not going to honour any bargain with the furniture.

 

Well, Basalit-an  seems to denote that particular bas  is worthy of a modicum of some respect.

 

Then again... it might just be another way the Qunari refer to a bas  who in comparison to everyone else, stands out as the only puppy in the litter that appears anything close to house-trained. When you remember how mad everyone else was acting during the events that proceeded Warden, Hawke and Inquisitor all potentially getting that title, that interpretation would make a surprising amount of sense.

 

Damn, it sounds so less epic now if you imagine it equates to "One who does not pee on the rug."

 

[MisterJB]

I still can't help but think "Well, duh." everytime I read the title of the thread,

[Addictress]

No it isn't. Sten's case was isolated, and he was low-ranking. Most who knew of it either died or stopped caring. And he either dies or is pardoned. The Arishok attacked a city, but it could be argued that he was provoked by Petrice and a few others. Doesn't justify his actions, but the Ariqun and Arigena disavowed him anyway because of how serious the issue could have been. That leaves only Viddasala as the truly questionable example. But she was disavowed and evidence points to her being unauthorized. So that's really only one offense from the Qunari. Maybe one and half. And this is over the course of 14 years, and each problem was resolved quickly.

 

Your original comment was in response to Baconer saying, basically, the Qunari are pushing the envelope with these rogue attacks.

 

So even if we completely 100% embrace the fact that all these incidents were made by rogue agents, and not the 'official' triumvirate, it is still considered pushing the envelope and creating political tensions. It's like cyber attacks from China. The Chinese government might disavow those attacks and say the official government isn't involved. But it still creates tension. The reason it does is because it at least shows there exists a major desire among the Qunari to f* with the South, even if the government is playing along with an accord 'technically' for now. You are constantly aware of some latent desire to take over the South. And latent desires and tensions are often enough to cause wars.

[JadeDragon]

Your original comment was in response to Baconer saying, basically, the Qunari are pushing the envelope with these rogue attacks.

 

So even if we completely 100% embrace the fact that all these incidents were made by rogue agents, and not the 'official' triumvirate, it is still considered pushing the envelope and creating political tensions. It's like cyber attacks from China. The Chinese government might disavow those attacks and say the official government isn't involved. But it still creates tension. The reason it does is because it at least shows there exists a major desire among the Qunari to f* with the South, even if the government is playing along with an accord 'technically' for now. You are constantly aware of some latent desire to take over the South. And latent desires and tensions are often enough to cause wars.

Fully Agree. Imagine it would have been the same if lets say Lelianna or one of her spies was doing a covert ops for the Inquisition in a area the Inquisition did not openly want to go to war with and got caught, they knew the consequences it comes with the job so they are not going to claim it was sanctioned by the Inquisition and Josie would not claim it either. She shows through out the game how reputation and appearances are important for nations and organizations to keep up despite the true intentions. The last thing the Qunari want is even more distrust amongst them and thedas. That seem to be just phase 1 of a invasion, but if they were to launch a invasion there first target is Tevinter due to location and the fact there is already skirmishes there. To get the south involved would be history repeating itself all over again like with the Exalted March. They dont want to waste time doing another full Invasion just for a draw, if they go in they are going in to win it and convert Thedas not test the waters again.

[ModernAcademic]

Wonder if we'll get to page 50

 

The only way to not get there is if one of the creative writers is mad enough to spend an entire night reading this thread, wake up next morning and then go: This is it! I'm giving an interview to IGN on the Qunari and the Viddasala tomorrow! 

 

Otherwise, we'll be stuck forever in a limbo of circular arguments.

 

 

 

Either way, I'm all set for the next 10 pages:

 

[Addictress]

The only way to not get there is if one of the creative writers is mad enough to spend an entire night reading this thread, wake up next morning and then go: This is it! I'm giving an interview to IGN on the Qunari and the Viddasala tomorrow!

Otherwise, we'll be stuck forever in a limbo of circular arguments.



Either way, I'm all set for the next 10 pages:

Oh my god this needs to happen!!!

How can Patrick Weekes let this continue under his nose? Does he not have feels?

[ModernAcademic]

Oh my god this needs to happen!!!

How can Patrick Weekes let this continue under his nose? Does he not have feels?

 

Well, he certainly has the brains. His vague statements on the matter created a logical conundrum that's impossible to solve. Not many people can claim to be able to do that. 

[Sifr]

Oh my god this needs to happen!!!

How can Patrick Weekes let this continue under his nose? Does he not have feels?

 

Perhaps Weekes is sitting back cackling madly while stroking a white cat?

 

Or maybe I just imagine all the best writers feed off fear, nerd-rage and tears, could be that too.

[Dai Grepher]

It would be good if the southern kingdoms utilized in the same way the Qunari do. So fat it's only been used to suffer assault after assault with no recompense.

Okay, assault after assault is what Tevinter endures. One Qunari flipping out on a farm then quickly submitting to justice, the Arishok reacting poorly to various offenses in a slum of a city then being denounced by the other leaders, and Viddasala's actions mainly blamed on Solas and the Inquisition "provoking" the Qunari; none of these rise to the level of "assault after assault". And this is over the span of 14 years.

No. I'm saying that in the hypothetical scenario in which that were true, the difference would be so infintesimal as to be completely irrelevant.

You really see no significant difference between the Triumvirate actively trying to attack covertly and the Triumvirate being encumbered by the foolishness of their own agents?

Again, you won't even admit that it's possible that the Triumvirate lacked proper oversight of Viddasala, which allowed her to do what she did?

That goal is the reason why they're all combatants, you clown. Every single one.

The females aren't. The merchants aren't. The bakers aren't.

I don't care, because it doesn't matter.

Of course facts don't matter to you. I'll take this as you retracting your point about the Triumvirate updating their oversight policies after the Arishok's actions.

It's blood to be paid at a later date, one of the Qunari's choosing which makes it even worse.

Not if that later date allows the South time to catch up to the Qunari in military strength and technology, or surpass them further regarding magic.

Honestly, would you prefer a protracted war over the course of centuries, or one massive war at the end of centuries of peace?

I don't think the Qunari will ever be as successful as they were during the Steel and Storm ages, but that doesn't change what they are, and what should be done to them. If they aren't ready for a war with the South, then by all means, that is the time to strike.

Yeah, the time to strike the Qunari, not the time for the Qunari to strike the South. Which is my entire point.

Citations needed.

The Arishok says he is not authorized to take Kirkwall. The Ariqun and Arigena denounce him. The Triumvirate letter disavows Viddasala. The South is not at war with the Qunari at the end of Trespasser, and the epilogue states that the Triumvirate requests the Divine's aid in toppling Tevinter.

We do, however, have Patrick Weekes stating that a Qun loyal Iron Bull followed the Viddasala because she wasn't a rogue faction, or an offshoot, she was leading an actual precursor to war.

No you don't. He never said that.

Also, didn't we have a quote from Origins earlier in this thread indicating that the Qunari didn't sign a treaty, they signed a piece of paper to make the Bas feel better?

This discussion is about the South's perspective, and that they view the Accords as still being in effect despite the Viddasala's actions.

Show me some codex entries that state that Trespasser wasn't authorized. Your typical "but my qunari wouldn't do that" isn't evidence of anything but headcanon.

That Trespasser wasn't authorized, or Dragon's Breath?

http://dragonage.wik...ers_and_Replies

There's your codex. So are you going to accept the canon facts now?

[Dai Grepher]

Your original comment was in response to Baconer saying, basically, the Qunari are pushing the envelope with these rogue attacks.

So even if we completely 100% embrace the fact that all these incidents were made by rogue agents, and not the 'official' triumvirate, it is still considered pushing the envelope and creating political tensions.

Maybe, maybe not. But they certainly weren't considered violations of the Llomeryn Accords. That's the point.

And these incidents shouldn't be considered as such. People on your side are blowing them out of proportion. We know for a fact Sten wasn't authorized to murder people on a farm. We know for a fact the Arishok wasn't authorized to attack Kirkwall, which was a mess anyway, and the remaining members of the Triumvirate denounced him publically. So Sten was nothing, and the Arishok was disavowed.

The Viddasala's plan was stopped before any damage was done, and she was also disavowed anyway. And there was never any invasion planned to follow Viddasala. So how exactly have the Qunari violated the Llomeryn Accords? The Arishok was the greater offense, and yet the South has accepted the Triumvirate's denouncement. So that is done. Viddasala was a lower ranking agent, and not only was she foiled, but her plan of attack was weak to being with. What she was and what she did is no different from Alexius or the other Venatori. Tevinter isn't to be blamed for their actions. Qunadar isn't to be blamed for Viddasala's.

The reason it does is because it at least shows there exists a major desire among the Qunari to f* with the South, even if the government is playing along with an accord 'technically' for now. You are constantly aware of some latent desire to take over the South. And latent desires and tensions are often enough to cause wars.

So what is your point? The Triumvirate didn't wish to cause any tension either. This has nothing to do with Viddasala being authorized or not.

As for possibility of war, that is a separate issue, and it's one I'm sure the South is aware of. Sten can outright tell a Cousland Hero that the Qunari will invade again one day. He also tells Alistair, and the Warden by extension, that the Llomeryn Accords are nothing to the Qunari. They will break them when they are ready to invade again. So the only ruler who might be unaware of this is Anora ruling alone, and Trespasser may have enlightened her to this possibility.

[Sifr]

That Trespasser wasn't authorized, or Dragon's Breath?

http://dragonage.wik...ers_and_Replies

There's your codex. So are you going to accept the canon facts now?

 

Weekes has stated otherwise and stated the writer's intention, so aside from a letter that therefore is the Qunari invoking plausible deniability, what else do you have to present to the court beyond thinking that the Qunari are saints who'd never lie about their goals or intentions?

 

I mean, we have codex entries talking about the Elven pantheon being Gods... so they must be, right? Any new information we receive from the games or the writers that would change that assertion means nothing, it doesn't count!

 

That's pretty much you're entire argument, right?

[Addictress]

Maybe, maybe not. But they certainly weren't considered violations of the Llomeryn Accords. That's the point.

And these incidents shouldn't be considered as such. People on your side are blowing them out of proportion. We know for a fact Sten wasn't authorized to murder people on a farm. We know for a fact the Arishok wasn't authorized to attack Kirkwall, which was a mess anyway, and the remaining members of the Triumvirate denounced him publically. So Sten was nothing, and the Arishok was disavowed.

The Viddasala's plan was stopped before any damage was done, and she was also disavowed anyway. And there was never any invasion planned to follow Viddasala. So how exactly have the Qunari violated the Llomeryn Accords? The Arishok was the greater offense, and yet the South has accepted the Triumvirate's denouncement. So that is done. Viddasala was a lower ranking agent, and not only was she foiled, but her plan of attack was weak to being with. What she was and what she did is no different from Alexius or the other Venatori. Tevinter isn't to be blamed for their actions. Qunadar isn't to be blamed for Viddasala's.


So what is your point? The Triumvirate didn't wish to cause any tension either. This has nothing to do with Viddasala being authorized or not.

As for possibility of war, that is a separate issue, and it's one I'm sure the South is aware of. Sten can outright tell a Cousland Hero that the Qunari will invade again one day. He also tells Alistair, and the Warden by extension, that the Llomeryn Accords are nothing to the Qunari. They will break them when they are ready to invade again. So the only ruler who might be unaware of this is Anora ruling alone, and Trespasser may have enlightened her to this possibility.

Yeah, I missed the thing about the Llomerryn Accords. I wasn't talking about those.

My general observation is that you think the Qunari want to be docile and are truly friendly and not trying to stir up a mess with the south. The point is the Qunari want tension and they really want to invade.

[The Baconer]

Okay, assault after assault is what Tevinter endures. One Qunari flipping out on a farm then quickly submitting to justice, the Arishok reacting poorly to various offenses in a slum of a city then being denounced by the other leaders, and Viddasala's actions mainly blamed on Solas and the Inquisition "provoking" the Qunari; none of these rise to the level of "assault after assault". And this is over the span of 14 years.

What amounts as two major acts of war within 14 years is a pretty big deal.

You really see no significant difference between the Triumvirate actively trying to attack covertly and the Triumvirate being encumbered by the foolishness of their own agents?

To the people being harmed, there is no practical difference, especially when the Qunari themselves only respond with "we're soory" or "shut up about this" in resoonse.

Again, you won't even admit that it's possible that the Triumvirate lacked proper oversight of Viddasala, which allowed her to do what she did?

In the context in which Dragon's Breath took place, no.

The females aren't. The merchants aren't. The bakers aren't.

Questions of who was and wasn't a combatant can wait until after Par Vollen has been subjugated.

Of course facts don't matter to you.

The humor of this phrase being used by Dai Grepher delights me.

Not if that later date allows the South time to catch up to the Qunari in military strength and technology, or surpass them further regarding magic.

Honestly, would you prefer a protracted war over the course of centuries, or one massive war at the end of centuries of peace?

So far, it isn't.

I would like Thedas to commit to total war, until one side is utterly spent. The Qunari are still hesitant to attack the entire mainland, without schemes like Dragon's Breath to shake up the odds. Time to dogpile them.

[KaiserShep]

Well, he certainly has the brains. His vague statements on the matter created a logical conundrum that's impossible to solve. Not many people can claim to be able to do that.

It's diabolical I tells ya.