Interestingly enough, the Arishok could have been authorized to use any means necessary to accomplish his task. We have evidence, from that game, to the contrary, but I'm wondering, if he'd managed to defeat Hawke, would they have disavowed his actions? We know, from Origins, that they don't care one wit about the treaty, it was a piece of paper to make the Bas feel better. Taking Kirkwall would give them a better staging area against the South, and since we know they're planning to invade, sooner or later, it would be logical to have that. Denial of past events notwithstanding, they're going to start that war sooner or later.
I think the "what if's" are fun for us to speculate about here in the forum, because it's fun to get immersed in the Dragon Age universe and pretend it's "real". There's nothing wrong with that.
But my particular thought process always returns to "yeah but we can't treat this like a real universe" in the respect that... we have to know that the Qun aren't going to fight all of Southern Thedas until Bioware are ready to dedicate a game (or a good chunk of one) to that.
So, really, when we were getting a lot of information before the release of Inquisition, it probably became pretty apparent that the incident in Kirkwall wasn't the start of the Sten-forshadowed invasion. I think most of us are looking forward to that. That's part of what makes Trespasser so much fun for me.
Edit: And yeah, I agree that if they did defeat Hawke, they probably would have kept the city if they felt prepared for war with the Free Marches.
With the way they handled the Templar / Mage conflict, however, even a Southern Thedas vs Qunari knock-down-drag-out-fight isn't inevitable. I think a war has definitely begun, because Weekes says so... but who's to say how it will play out? If Bioware decides to drop the Veil and give everyone a more conscious connection to the Fade... that has the serious potential to screw with the citizens under the Qun.
WoT2 states that the Ariqun and Arigena publicly disavowed the Arishok in front of Chantry officials. Though WoT's accuracy is questionable, there has been nothing to contradict it on that issue.
Yes, I am well-aware of the Qunari publicly disavowing things left and right, but that isn't recompense. Some recompense should especially be demanded after Viddasala. I'm beginning to think you don't really understand what the word means, after missing the point entirely after multiple posts.
Except that it doesn't lead to an international incident, and it does matter whether they are genuine or not.
Yes, it was an international incident, and no, it doesn't really matter if they are genuine or not. They are either malicious, or their incompetence is so severe that it is a danger to everyone else.
Yes, just as Par Vollen should disregard Solas' attack on the Qunari and not hold it against the Inquisition or the South. His attack actually succeeded in killing some Qunari, even if they were being misled.
The point is, Viddasala's actions were unacceptable, but at least she did no damage to the South or its people.
Of course, you would try to compare Solas to a vetted, official leader and representative of Qunari society.
Viddasala did no damage because the South was required able her. It wasn't by any effort of the Qunari, the ones with actual authority over her. This is not a point in the Qunari's favor.
This has nothing to do with the feelings of people in the South. The point is that the small number of incidents and the disorganized nature of them indicate unauthorized agents taking action on their own. It does not indicate a calculated, official effort to attack the South.
The feelings of the South is the entire point, you clown. It's been the main point the entire time. How should the Qunai be treated by those who are forced to share a planet with them? What should a reasonable response be after they've been attacked multiple times by "rogue agents"?
And where would they be exactly? On offense? If that were possible I doubt they would have drawn up the Accords in the first place. Taking Par Vollen would require superior ships, a great deal of soldiers to land on the shores and set up base camps, then more supply ships. So instead of working on all of this, they decided to make peace? Why? Is it because they would have been on the defensive for ages to come, just like Tevinter is now?
Because they were tired and bloodied. The Qunari Wars were some of the most vicious and destructive conflicts outside of the Blight. Still, a cessation of hostilities didn't require a binding treaty, as the Qunari were as spent as the South, and were the ones fighting a defensive war around the time the treaty was signed.
The goal should be to eradicate all Qunari presence on the mainland (so, northern Rivain and Kont-Aar). Holdings along the Northern Passage and the Nocen can be fortified while the assault on Par Vollen is devised.
Well that's a separate point, but thanks for conceding your first one. So you think Dragon's Breath was the opening attack in a war effort. So the first attack failed. And you honestly think this means calling off the rest of the war? After all the troops and ships have been mobilized? No contingency plan for Dragon's Breath other than "plausibly deny"? No viddathari Tallises lying in wait with daggers ready to kill the nobles? And what does this say about the Qunari exactly? Is their military so weak that it can't even attempt to invade the South unless the southern leaders are killed first? So the leaders live... and this puts the Qunari at a disadvantage? So the entire war effort hinged on Dragon's Breath succeeding and being effective? And despite this weakness the Qunari risked provoking the South if the attempt failed?
Yes. You keep mentioning mobilization, but where do you think all these ships and soldiers are waiting? If the Qunari want to make landfall, it either has to be through northern Thedas via Rivain and/or Antiva, or they would have to sail through the Amaranthine to hit the Free Marches or Ferelden. Or Both.
In the event that Dragon's Breath fails, they can simply redirect these already-mobilized forces on Tevinter, which is right next door, figuratively speaking.
You honestly believe the Qunari don't know how war is waged?
But Dai Grepher does? Please, come on now.
Well of course your want of war arises from within yourself,
Please. If we could do that, the romance forums would never have been shut down.
I'd rather not have that abyss gaze back at me.
Just think of how many African countries one thread of Tali's sweat could have powered.
There isn't enough brain bleach in the world to clean out the second-hand knowledge I have of that thread. I fear for those that could have seen it for themselves.
Just started a new play through of DA I yesterday. And while recruting Iron Bull the thought occured to me: What if the Vidisalla was Bull's direct Superior, or at least the person who ordered him to join the Inquisition?
Afterall Bull mentions that the Qun is concerned, specifically, with the breach and magic it is bringing to the table and the Inquisitor and Inquisition. What was madame vidi concerned with? The Breach, and magic. Her whole department of the Qun was concerned with such things. It is not an unreasonable assumption to make and leap of logic that she was the one really behind Bull all along. What does this mean to the argument? Not entirely sure. Discuss!
Just started a new play through of DA I yesterday. And while recruting Iron Bull the thought occured to me: What if the Vidisalla was Bull's direct Superior, or at least the person who ordered him to join the Inquisition?
Afterall Bull mentions that the Qun is concerned, specifically, with the breach and magic it is bringing to the table and the Inquisitor and Inquisition. What was madame vidi concerned with? The Breach, and magic. Her whole department of the Qun was concerned with such things. It is not an unreasonable assumption to make and leap of logic that she was the one really behind Bull all along. What does this mean to the argument? Not entirely sure. Discuss!
I would be more prone to believing this if Bull's Ben-Hassrath job history actually concerned itself with investigating magic. But from what we can tell, Iron Bull had duties that put him more along the lines of the "Dangerous Questions" branch that deal with outside intelligence rather than the "Dangerous Purpose" branch that deals with magic and converts.
I would be more prone to believing this if Bull's Ben-Hassrath job history actually concerned itself with investigating magic. But from what we can tell, Iron Bull had duties that put him more along the lines of the "Dangerous Questions" branch that deal with outside intelligence rather than the "Dangerous Purpose" branch that deals with magic and converts.
I suppose the question then becomes how much authority does one member of the Qun have over another even if they are not exactly in their chain of command?
I suppose the question then becomes how much authority does one member of the Qun have over another even if they are not exactly in their chain of command?
Well, Viddasala does indeed seems to be a part for Qunari leadership, so - so long as she IF part of Qunari leadership, and not some rogue faction - her orders are respected.
However I don't think she can just approach a person, or member of another branch and be like "Hey, you? I order you to go with me!". The Qunari are all about rules and control - somebody somewhere would more than likely write a report or make a note somewhere that "this and that leader went there and took 10 people to work on this project".
Which brings us another interesting detail think people who think she's a rogue tend to omit - the dead Qunari that we see in Winter Palace; the one that leads us to the eluvian and entire plot? It's NOT part of Ben-Hassarath; he's part of Antaam. You could say that it's Leliana claiming that, but Leliana actually seems to have done her homework and studied Qunari, including being able to read their language.
Now... why would warrior from Antaam would work with Viddasala if it wasn't a full-scale operation that involved more than Viddasala's Ben-Hassarath section?
Well, Viddasala does indeed seems to be a part for Qunari leadership, so - so long as she IF part of Qunari leadership, and not some rogue faction - her orders are respected.
However I don't think she can just approach a person, or member of another branch and be like "Hey, you? I order you to go with me!". The Qunari are all about rules and control - somebody somewhere would more than likely write a report or make a note somewhere that "this and that leader went there and took 10 people to work on this project".
Which brings us another interesting detail think people who think she's a rogue tend to omit - the dead Qunari that we see in Winter Palace; the one that leads us to the eluvian and entire plot? It's NOT part of Ben-Hassarath; he's part of Antaam. You could say that it's Leliana claiming that, but Leliana actually seems to have done her homework and studied Qunari, including being able to read their language.
Now... why would warrior from Antaam would work with Viddasala if it wasn't a full-scale operation that involved more than Viddasala's Ben-Hassarath section?
Honestly that fits either narrative. One could easily claim that said member of the Antaam was rogue by the mere fact they were following around a member of the Ben-Hassarath.
Honestly that fits either narrative. One could easily claim that said member of the Antaam was rogue by the mere fact they were following around a member of the Ben-Hassarath.
And nobody in the game would mention that? Not even Iron Bull, be it Tal-Vashot or Qunverted one? "Oy, these people are weird - why would they follow a Ben-Hassarath?"
And why does nobody mentions it anywhere in fact - we find a lot of stuff written by Qunari and Viddathari. Nobody anywhere is like "Viddasala knows what she's doing, unlike others!" or "Hail Viddi".
Its too much of a logical stretch. This is a too big, too well-coordinated operation to be pulled by a rogue faction. There are spies all across Orlais who work towards success of this mission; distributing the gaatlok not just through eluvians but through places or organizations they've infiltrated (the gaatlok in Winter Palace arrived with Inquisition).
It's impossible for all these spies to work with Viddasala. And if Viddasala's people were able to trip over Solas people how is it they never were found out by 'non-rogue' Qunari spies? You think they wouldn't find it suspicious that they're hauling Gaalok - a super-secret Qunari weapon everywhere all across the South?
And if someone mentions that Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull didn't fish either Qunari or "rogue QUnari" spies out, even though he's done that in post-Dreadnought explosion scene - the Qunari knows very well that he's working for Inquisition now. Specifically avoiding making one person suspicious is far easier than multitude of other "real Qunari" spies all throughout Thedas.
It would only require minimal effort for the Triuumverate to stop the Viddasala if she was rogue. Simply make a public pronouncement that the Viddasala was now Tal-Vashoth or have one of their agents pass a note to one of hers; the misled qunari would turn on her quickly, since they already have misgivings about the whole operation. Hell, just contact Iron Bull and give him some kind of official documentation; he can explain to every qunari he comes across what's happening.
But of course they won't stop her, because they fully support what she's doing.
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It would only require minimal effort for the Triuumverate to stop the Viddasala if she was rogue. Simply make a public pronouncement that the Viddasala was now Tal-Vashoth or have one of their agents pass a note to one of hers; the misled qunari would turn on her quickly, since they already has misgivings about the whole operation. Hell, just contact Iron Bull and give him some kind of official documentation; he can explain to every qunari he comes across what's happening.
But of course they won't stop her, because they fully support what she's doing.
No one has given any thought to the basic logistics issue. The Vidassala can't possibly leave Qunari lands with such a massive force without resources. And the qunari she leaves with aren't complete morons - they have some basic sense of their own task. The idea that she left without authority to implement a plan similar to the current one is nonsense. The more interesting question is whether everything is authorised. From what Weekes has said it sounds like even super-Saarebas was part of the plan and I'm not sure that's within the about of the Vidassala's role. But there's a good counter argument. Once you accept the Qunari view that all magic is bad and you admit that for the purpose of the invasion some magic has to be used, it's not hard to see them come to the view that any magic can be used.
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In the case of the Viddasala commanding Antaam members, I think it can be explained rather easily if we assume that the Triumvirate delegated such authority to her. Basically, if the Ariqun had convinced the Arishok and Arigena to support the "Dragon's Breath" project and put it in place, I think he/she wouldn't have had too much difficulties convincing them that in that very specific case the Viddasala needed some authority over warriors and workers to make it happen, and not just over priests and converts in the South. Since the operation diverged quite a lot from previous attempt to overthrow a nation by the Qunari it is possible that they felt the need to concentrate the local authority (possibly to prevent another big failure like the previous Arishok mission in Kirkwall, where he couldn't apparently make use of the stranded Ben-Hassrath to help him in his search).
Once you accept the Qunari view that all magic is bad and you admit that for the purpose of the invasion some magic has to be used, it's not hard to see them come to the view that any magic can be used.
Especially since, according to the wiki, they've done it before:
7:56 Storm - "The attack on Starkhaven eventually failed, but Kirkwall was attacked in a daring night raid where the Qunari used their leashed saarebas mages in an unprecedented display of sorcery. The walls were torn down and the city was taken, and for the next four years, Kirkwall endured the most brutal occupation in its history."
There's also the matter of how Saarebas are not taught any forms of healing magic.
If the Qunari really thought magic is to dangerous to use, why'd they only ever allow mages under the Qun to learn destruction magic and mold them into living artillery weapons? That really doesn't sound like the Qunari don't mean to unleash them on their enemies when they feel it is appropriate.
Which makes the use of them by Viddasala point even more to the idea that her superiors authorised them to be deployed for this mission, as the Qunari clearly aren't just screwing around if they're planning to assassinate government officials, religious leaders and heads of state across southern Thedas. Bringing out the Saarebas should be a sign that the Qunari are deadly serious about what they're doing.
There's also the matter of how Saarebas are not taught any forms of healing magic.
If the Qunari really thought magic is to dangerous to use, why'd they only ever allow mages under the Qun to learn destruction magic and mold them into living artillery weapons? That really doesn't sound like the Qunari don't mean to unleash them on their enemies when they feel it is appropriate.
Which makes the use of them by Viddasala point even more to the idea that her superiors authorised them to be deployed for this mission, as the Qunari clearly aren't just screwing around if they're planning to assassinate government officials, religious leaders and heads of state across southern Thedas. Bringing out the Saarebas should be a sign that the Qunari are deadly serious about what they're doing.
I'd say them bringing Saarebas is a sign they were somewhat desperate.
The problem they have with mages is mages can't truly control themselves and therefore even the Qun can't fully control a mage.
Feeding lyrium to Saarebas , when they know they can't control Saarebas , and the Qunari aren't super familliar with the stuff , just make me raise my eyebrows.
And they do loose control of a huge saarebas towards the end.
It's not really a good sign for the future , because they now know someone wants to drop the veil , and they are ready to do anything to stop that.
I have to say I'm not liking very much where this is going , don't want the Qunari to be the next magical big threat because they are trying to stop the next magical big threat.
They are very efficient at gathering data and such , like it was shown in their fortress...Qunari haven't stand idle when it comes to red lyirum , Solas , the Breach and all that but erf...their methods....I have a feeling force feeding lyrium to Saarebas to reinforce the veil wasn't the way to go when their most powerful Saarebas ended up farting demons left , right and center.
I'd say them bringing Saarebas is a sign they were somewhat desperate.
The problem they have with mages is mages can't truly control themselves and therefore even the Qun can't fully control a mage.
Feeding lyrium to Saarebas , when they know they can't control Saarebas , and the Qunari aren't super familliar with the stuff , just make me raise my eyebrows.
And they do loose control of a huge saarebas towards the end.
I hadn't the impression that they truly lost control of Saarath. True, he escaped the control rod and fled at some point. But he quickly returned to prevent the Inquisitor from meddling with the Viddasala. Truth been told, it was the moment which impressed me the most in the DLC. The music, Saarath powers and the very fact he had returned to fight for his fellow Qunari. That was thrilling.
Why were you asking for the source when all you had to do was wait until you finished reading to see that my source was the OP? Too much caffeine?
Perhaps you missed my reply to that. "No he doesn't. He says nothing of the sort. Nothing about Viddasala. Nothing about authorization. Nothing about deceptive letters."
So, sources? Or do you concede that it was all your baseless speculation?
I haven't seen any of those people agree with you. But I don't mind reading through the whole thread.
You're aware of this thing called the "Like This" button? It appears in everyone's posts. Look next to it in the post I linked you to. Those people agreed with me.
Whether or not the Arishok was re-educated when he was disavowed is irrelevant.
Then why did you bring it up? I certainly didn't.
His action of attacking Kirkwall was disavowed, it was a rogue action
Viddasala's act was disavowed as well, yet you don't consider it a rogue action. You contradict yourself.
and he returned to the Qunari for them to either kill him or punish him for going rogue.
No he doesn't. He returns to them initially to deliver the tome and the thief. When Isebela escapes and steals the tome again, the Arishok continues on to face the music for losing the tome and the thief on their way back to Par Vollen.
So shouldn't Viddasala have done the same if she merely failed in a mission?
Instead, Viddasala throws her life away trying to attack Solas. Just as the Arishok does against Hawke if Hawke refuses to turn over Isabela or she never shows up.
His personal views and relationship with the Qun is irrelevant, since the Qunari leadership decide who and who is not really serving the Qun faithfully.
Which was exactly my point. Thanks for agreeing with me again.
I've already posted the information from Inquisition that tells us the Arishok was disavowed. It's not a double standard, it's just a chain of events occurring in a certain way to achieve a certain result to tell parts of the story.
Yeah, and I posted the information from Trespasser that tells us the Viddasala was disavowed. Yet you call one a rogue and the other not. Keep in mind, I have neither claimed Viddasala was rogue or not rogue. That is up to Weekes and the Triumvirate, but Weekes did not address Viddasala in the OP's interview. So he didn't say she was or wasn't rogue either. All we have then is what the Triumvirate has said, and that is that Viddasala was not authorized and was disavowed.
Weekes doesn't have to mention any specific government components.
He does if you want to use him as evidence for your baseless claims.
When he says "the Qunari" and "the real Qunari" and uses it as opposed to "an offshoot" in the context of "the Qunari are gonna start a war" it makes it clear. Nobody has to ask him, "When you say 'the real Qunari,' do you mean the Viddasala?" because Weekes can't be talking about anyone else.
He could be talking about one Qunari, a specific group of Qunari, or the Qunari race. So yes, he should have been asked to clarify by the interviewer.
Individual members of the Qunari don't make sense in the context of "the Qunari are gonna start a war". The Viddasala going rogue doesn't make sense in the context of "the Quanri are gonna start a war". If it were the Viddasala going rogue and leading her (supposedly real individual Qunari according to your theory) troops astray, that would be an "offshoot" in the context of "the (real) Qunari are gonna start a war."
I explained this to you multiple times. "The Qunari" refers to the group of Qunari we fought in Trespasser. Those Qunari were real Qunari. Those Qunari were trying to start a war, by Viddasala's order. But Viddasala was not authorized to do anything of the sort.
This concept is not difficult to understand. You simply refuse to acknowledge this because you have no way to refute it.
There's only one way "the (real) Qunari" can go to war. All parts of their government approved moving forward to start a war. Nothing else makes sense.
Wrong. The Qunari can go to war if the South declares war against them based on Viddasala's actions. That is how the war was supposed to get started, by Viddasala attacking the South without authorization. This would force Par Vollen into war with the South. They would have no choice.
@Dai Grepher - I went through the thread and I didn't find anyone that agreed with you. If I'm wrong and missed something, people are free to let us all know. Or if they changed their minds, that's fine as well. The strength of my argument isn't based on numbers.
Well I proved you wrong that no one agreed with me, so with that distraction out of the way, let's continue the real debate.
Isn't it? If they were a rogue group, then they were not authorized.
Rogue groups are not authorized by default, yes. But just because a group acts without authorization doesn't automatically mean they are rogue. In this case this is even more apparent because the group itself was being misled by one agent.
If they were not a rogue group, then they were authorized.
Not necessarily. The Arishok and his men were not a rogue group, yet they engaged in an unauthorized action for which the Arishok was disavowed.
It's possible that Weekes and the Triumvirate consider a "rogue" to be one who acts with malice against the Qun, or one who misuses resources to further their own personal gain. They may not consider the Arishok or even Viddasala to be rogue. Though they might consider Viddasala to be rogue. Even if they do, that doesn't change the fact that the Qunari under her were being misused. So they were not a rogue group. They were real Qunari being misled.
I would also like to bring up another example from a different series to illustrate my case. It's from Better Call Saul. You don't need to read the example if you don't want to, but it helps. Season 2 spoilers follow:
Spoiler
Better Call Saul is a great show on AMC that features a character named Jimmy. During a recent story arc Jimmy worked as a lawyer for a firm called Davis & Main. He was recommended to them by Kim, who worked at another firm HHM. Jimmy was tasked with client outreach, and he was told that he would head that department for a case called Sandpiper. This case was being handled by David & Main as well as another larger firm called HHM.
So one day, for reasons, Jimmy got the idea to film a commercial that would elicit the attention and response of elderly people to contact Davis & Main if they felt they could have been wronged by Sandpiper at some time in the past. When he began this project, Omar, an assistant of his showed him the last commercial Davis & Main ran when they tried client outreach before Jimmy joined the firm. That commercial was cold, unimaginative, and impersonal. Jimmy couldn't believe the firm had even wasted money on it, but Omar told him that the partners deliberated heavily on some irrelevant aspect of it. Jimmy asked what the return was on that commercial. Omar said it was not good, and for that reason the partners probably wouldn't be open to another commercial.
With this in mind, Jimmy shot his own commercial without telling anyone. He used his own money to finance it. The next step should have been to present the commercial to his boss and the two partners, a triumvirate if you will, for their approval and authorization to air the commercial. But Jimmy was afraid that they would disapprove his commercial, or try to change it to the point of ineffectiveness. So with some internal deliberation he finally decided to send the tape to one TV station to air once in one localized market as the first commercial during Murder She Wrote, which he knew was popular among senior citizens. He gambled that the commercial would be a success, and even if not, airing it once in one small city at a low cost would justify his action.
On a side note, Jimmy told his girlfriend Kim, a lawyer at HHM, about the commercial. He even showed it to her. She assumed that David & Main had already approved the commercial, and Jimmy never corrected her.
On the date of airing, Jimmy instructed those under him to have a system of answering call-ins, anticipating a flood of calls from elderly people who will see the commercial. He made sure that if Omar was on the line with one person, the next call would transfer over to someone else, and so on. So Jimmy involved quite a few other people who were all employees of Davis & Main, all of whom assumed that he was acting with authorization and approval of the partners. So, the commercial aired, the calls came in, and Jimmy's commercial was a great success.
That night Jimmy got a call from his boss, who was irate that Jimmy ran a commercial without consulting him and the other partners. He even called him an arsonist, thinking that this would damage the firm's reputation. He told him to see him in his office first thing next day, and they they want to see the commercial. Jimmy had the opportunity to tell Kim that night, but he decided not to, thinking he could smooth everything out.
The next day the triumvirate of bosses watched Jimmy's commercial, and despite Jimmy's explanation of it being low budget and running only once in a small market, and despite the success of the commercial, the bosses were still angry. Jimmy's attempt to defend himself was that he was given the role of client outreach, and he was only trying to take some initiative. After all, gaining more clients was the goal, and since running the commercial they had gained hundreds of new clients. But this fell flat as the partners explained that Sandpiper was nice and all, but it isn't what pays the bills. The firm has other clients and cases it must represent, and the point of the firm is to keep up its own image. The commercial was against their brand's image, in their minds. They told him that they have clients who would be embarrassed to be associated with a firm that ran that kind of commercial. Basically, Davis & Main was the type of firm to play it safe. Jimmy was the type of lawyer to be colorful and take risks.
Two of the partners wanted to fire Jimmy with cause, but Jimmy's boss wanted to give him a second chance. But he was warned that this was strike one and strike two. So Jimmy left and went back to his office, where he immediately called Kim to tell her what happened and to give her a heads up. But it was too late. HHM had already heard about the incident and Kim was already being questioned about it. She told her boss Hamlin (one of the H's in HHM) that she was aware of the commercial, and that Jimmy had even showed it to her before it aired. Hamlin asked her why she didn't think it was worth mentioning. She lied and told him that she didn't think that it would be a problem (the truth is she didn't know it was unauthorized, but she didn't want to make Jimmy look bad). Hamlin told her that her responsibility was to HMM, and that she should have informed them of the possible problem that would arise because of Jimmy's mistake. Because she failed to inform them, HHM was cast in a bad light in front of Davis & Main because Kim recommended Jimmy to them. She was stuck in the basement reviewing documents. When it later came to light that she didn't know about Jimmy not getting authorization, she was moved out of doc review.
As for all those who took calls at Davis & Main for Jimmy, nothing happened to them. They were misled. So they were not punished.
After Jimmy's stunt, another assistant was assigned to work with him in all things, to make sure he didn't do anything questionable. This cramped Jimmy's style, so he decided to resign from Davis & Main. He told Omar to pen his resignation letter, and when Omar questioned why he was giving up all the perks, Jimmy said he didn't need the perks, except for the bonus. Omar then informed Jimmy that he wouldn't be able to keep the bonus if he quit. Upon confirming this in his contract, Jimmy told Omar to just forget about the resignation letter. In order to keep his bonus, Jimmy would either have to continue working for a long time or else get fired without cause.
And so Jimmy began behaving in ways that would get him fired for being a nuisance. It eventually worked, and his boss fired him for his antics. He also let him keep the bonus because he figured it wasn't worth his time to fight him on it. He would rather just be rid of Jimmy.
So, how does this all relate to Trespasser? Well, Davis & Main was the Qunari Triumvirate, obviously. Jimmy was Viddasala. Those under him were the real Qunari, who were not rogue but rather misled. Kim was... I don't know, a contrast to those working under Jimmy, I guess, or maybe Hissrad? And HHM was perhaps the Inquisition, in a way.
So at what point did Jimmy become a "rogue"? I would argue that he wasn't rogue when he was trying to help Davis & Main in his own way. The way he saw it, gaining clients was the goal, just as Viddasala saw conquering the South as the goal, right? The problem is, sure that's the goal, but there is a procedure. The Triumvirate decides the specifics, the who-what-when-where-why and how. They have the final say, not the agent.
Now, I would say that Jimmy went rogue when he started his scheme to get fired so he could keep his bonus. At that point it was no longer about the firm, it was about him. I'm not going to judge Viddasala rogue or not, but I would say that if she were rogue, she became a rogue the second she decided to spurn Solas' gesture of mercy and attack him. That was a prime opportunity for her to go back to Par Vollen, face the music yeah, but also warn the Triumvirate of the danger Solas poses to the world. Instead she ran from her responsibility and threw her life away rather than face the punishment that awaited her. But by that time she was no longer leading anyone and Dragon's Breath was foiled. So that would still be consistent with Weekes' comment IF it even applied to Viddasala, which it didn't.
Because going rogue is doing something without authorization. And it's confirmed that they were not rogue, therefore they were authorized.
Going rogue is doing things for yourself or for your own goals. Becoming an offshoot, in essence. Viddasala wasn't doing it for herself. She probably thought she was doing what the Qun demanded. So no, she wasn't rogue in that case.
Also, Weekes only confirmed that the Qunari we fought in the DLC were not rogue. He said nothing of Viddasala, whom we did not get the chance to fight.
Interestingly enough, the Arishok could have been authorized to use any means necessary to accomplish his task. We have evidence, from that game, to the contrary, but I'm wondering, if he'd managed to defeat Hawke, would they have disavowed his actions?
Yes, because he can be let go with the tome and Isabela, and he is still disavowed for attacking Kirkwall. It had nothing to do with his success or failure in his mission.
We know, from Origins, that they don't care one wit about the treaty, it was a piece of paper to make the Bas feel better. Taking Kirkwall would give them a better staging area against the South, and since we know they're planning to invade, sooner or later, it would be logical to have that. Denial of past events notwithstanding, they're going to start that war sooner or later.
But they do care about the treaty in that it gives them their own time table. It allows them to build their forces on their end first. They know the South believes in the treaty, and that it holds them back from declaring another Exalted March. That is why the Qunari will not violate the Llomeryn Accords until they are ready to launch a full scale war. They were far from ready in Trespasser, and even further from ready in DA2. Had the Arishok managed to somehow hold Kirkwall (impossible), the Ariqun and Arigena would have disavowed his actions and order him to surrender. If he had refused that, he would be declared Tal-Vashoth and the new Triumvirate would have supported the other Free Marches states in killing him. Failure to do so would mean the Llyomeryn Accords are no more. The Arishok is overwhelmed by the Free Marches, and Par Vollen is at risk of a new Exalted March.
That this was an attempt to make it as bloodless as possible is submitted in game, and that it wasn't a rogue group, in any way, is provided by Weekes. That bit is Word of God.
It was Viddasala who said it though, and her credibility is in question. Weekes said it wasn't a rogue group, and I never contradicted him on that fact.
It is supported by the fact that a Qun loyal IB will turn on the Inquisitor, even if romanced.
Not necessarily. We don't know what Hissrad's rationale was. All we know is that he was still in the Qun, and he chose to join his fellow real Qunari when Viddasala barked her order at him specifically. He did not follow her order to kill the Inquisition in the Vir Dirthara however. So it's possible he only blindly obeyed because he did not want to risk being branded Tal-Vashoth just in case Viddasala was authorized.
There can be no doubt, and a lot of us had no doubt before this thread existed, confirming that this wasn't a rogue faction, or an off shoot of an off shoot. Once again, Dai has failed to provide anything that refutes what Weekes has to say, and hence I didn't bother to reply. Typing Citation Needed over and over would quickly become redundant. He can't provide citations, because they don't exist. It would be hilarious to no end if the notes on the letter in Qunlat said "Nothing personal, but we have to cover our ass. Keep doing what you're doing, maybe you can defeat the Inquisitor, and thus the Inquisition, before our invasion goes into full force".
I provided a link to Weekes' and Epler's comments at the conference. That proves Viddasala was not authorized. You reject facts that prove you wrong.
If that Qunlat could have been translated to what you claimed, I would accept that as fact. I have no dog in this fight. If Viddasala was authorized then so be it. But the facts prove otherwise. I side with the facts and the truth.
Perhaps you missed my reply to that. "No he doesn't. He says nothing of the sort. Nothing about Viddasala. Nothing about authorization. Nothing about deceptive letters."
So, sources? Or do you concede that it was all your baseless speculation?
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Interesting. It seems you can't follow the logic of a paragraph. This is what I said.
"The Viddasala was authorized to do what she did, before she started to do so. Any letters to the contrary are just Qunari deception in case the first part of their plans failed. This is logical, it's an attempt to try and keep who they're attacking confused about whether or not there will be further attacks. Weekes clears that up, as stated in the OP. "
I made claims, then clearly said that Weekes supports those claims. Now, whether or not you accept the source, is irrelevant. I clearly stated a source. If you have a problem with the source, that's what you say, instead of claiming I didn't cite a source.
I haven't accepted any of your previous objections to my source so I'm not sure why you'd ask about concession.
The word of "god" is againt Dai Grepher. The fact he is jumping through hoops to perform verbal gymnastics similar to the worst politician just to keep the argument going is proof enough he will never admit he is flat out wrong. At this point the only reply to him is simply:
You are wrong. End of discussion.
SweetTeaholic, Almostfaceman et Dabrikishaw aiment ceci
You're aware of this thing called the "Like This" button? It appears in everyone's posts. Look next to it in the post I linked you to. Those people agreed with me.
I'm aware of the "like" button, yes. I like statements all the time, as I'm sure you've noticed. That doesn't always mean I totally agree with any statement however. I can like parts of a statement, or like a statement for bringing up interesting points that I then disagree with later on and use to further the discussion. So, the "like" button isn't necessarily someone totally agreeing with you. You're still all alone in making your particular argument, so far that I've seen.
Which was exactly my point. Thanks for agreeing with me again.
Interesting that you can't look at the whole of an argument in disagreement with you and take individual statements and then try to twist their meaning.
I said that the Qunari government are the ones who decide who's following the Qun or not. My argument is based on Weekes statement, that the Qunari government disavowed the Arishok, and didn't disavow the Viddasala.
So I didn't agree with you. I don't accept the letter in Trespasser as anything other than the Qunari government pretending to disavow the Viddasala. The Qunari government didn't pretend in the case of the Arishok.
Don't ask for any other sources. My source is Weekes statement. If you don't accept that source, then that's what you say. I don't feel the need for more sources in the matter, since my argument ultimately rests on Weekes statement. Weekes has the final say and it's clear.
You don't show an understanding of Weekes statement, going by the arguments you're using. That would be the point of our disagreement.
I'm aware of the "like" button, yes. I like statements all the time, as I'm sure you've noticed. That doesn't always mean I totally agree with any statement however. I can like parts of a statement, or like a statement for bringing up interesting points that I then disagree with later on and use to further the discussion. So, the "like" button isn't necessarily someone totally agreeing with you. You're still all alone in making your particular argument, so far that I've seen.
... It probably shouldn't be mentioned that posts that disagree with Dai Grepher get far more likes than those people either agree with or for some reason find them interesting.
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