1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

I explained this to you multiple times. "The Qunari" refers to the group of Qunari we fought in Trespasser. Those Qunari were real Qunari. Those Qunari were trying to start a war, by Viddasala's order. But Viddasala was not authorized to do anything of the sort.

This concept is not difficult to understand. You simply refuse to acknowledge this because you have no way to refute it.

 

Yes, I don't accept this explanation. I've already explained why.

 

This concept is not difficult to understand. You simply refuse to acknowledge this because you don't want to accept Weekes statement for what it is. You've been refuted by everyone I've seen make arguments in this thread.  

[Almostfaceman]

He could be talking about one Qunari, a specific group of Qunari, or the Qunari race. So yes, he should have been asked to clarify by the interviewer.

 

This is a failure to understand the context of Weekes statement. There's only one group of Qunari he's talking about and they're the ones that "start a war". The only group to whom Iron Bull reports. That would be the Qunari government. 

[Dai Grepher]

So, really, when we were getting a lot of information before the release of Inquisition, it probably became pretty apparent that the incident in Kirkwall wasn't the start of the Sten-forshadowed invasion. I think most of us are looking forward to that. That's part of what makes Trespasser so much fun for me.

With the way they handled the Templar / Mage conflict, however, even a Southern Thedas vs Qunari knock-down-drag-out-fight isn't inevitable. I think a war has definitely begun, because Weekes says so... but who's to say how it will play out?

And yet here we are after Trespasser with no war against Par Vollen. Hmm. And no new game on the horizon that will show the South AT ALL, let alone at war with anyone.

Yes, I am well-aware of the Qunari publicly disavowing things left and right, but that isn't recompense. Some recompense should especially be demanded after Viddasala. I'm beginning to think you don't really understand what the word means, after missing the point entirely after multiple posts.

And what recompense did the Chantry or nobles of Kirkwall demand of the Triumvirate exactly?

What damage was done during Trespasser that required compensation?

The Triumvirate's recompense is correcting the mistake by acknowledging it and taking measures that prevent it from reoccurring.

Yes, it was an international incident, and no, it doesn't really matter if they are genuine or not. They are either malicious, or their incompetence is so severe that it is a danger to everyone else.

This is where you're being willfully dishonest. You're a smart person Baconer. You know perfectly well that if the Triumvirate were acting against the South with intent then it's going to result in more attacks and more organized attacks than if the Triumvirate simply failed to catch some random overzealous agent.

Oh, also it seems you neglected to quote and reply to this part of my post...

"And do you have evidence from the canon that the Triumvirate were spinning anything? How do you know they weren't telling the truth?"

Of course, you would try to compare Solas to a vetted, official leader and representative of Qunari society.

Was Solas not vetted? Was he not a representative of the Inquisition? He saved the Herald's life. He led them to Skyhold. He offered advice on the various events. He was part of the Inquisition the whole time.

Viddasala did no damage because the South was required able her. It wasn't by any effort of the Qunari, the ones with actual authority over her. This is not a point in the Qunari's favor.

The point is, what did Viddasala break that the Triumvirate needed to pay for?

The feelings of the South is the entire point, you clown. It's been the main point the entire time. How should the Qunai be treated by those who are forced to share a planet with them? What should a reasonable response be after they've been attacked multiple times by "rogue agents"?

You're the one who tried to bring up the feelings of people in the South, which is irrelevant to the discussion of if Par Vollen is intentionally attacking or not. You're just trying to derail the discussion because you know you have no answer.

It was not the main point now or at any time. How the South should see the attacks has nothing to do with feelings. It has to do with facts. The South has NOT been attacked multiple times. Sten is a non-issue. The Arishok attacked one city after provocation, and he was disavowed. Ten years later one agent pops up and quickly faceplants with nothing being lost. She is disavowed as well.

So logically the South saw those two incidents as being unauthorized and thus not in violation of the Llomeryn Accords.

Because they were tired and bloodied. The Qunari Wars were some of the most vicious and destructive conflicts outside of the Blight. Still, a cessation of hostilities didn't require a binding treaty, as the Qunari were as spent as the South, and were the ones fighting a defensive war around the time the treaty was signed.

Tired and bloodied even though they were winning? Nonsense. And like you wrote, recovering would not require a peace treaty, just a drawback in forces until supplies and troops can be replenished.

No, the Accords were signed because the South did what it set out to do, push the Qunari off their lands. Par Vollen and Seheron were Tevinter's problems. The South offered to let Tevinter sign as well, but they refused. And so the "just as spent" Qunari continued to war with Tevinter, and yet here they are, still occupying Par Vollen and fighting over Seheron.

Yes. You keep mentioning mobilization, but where do you think all these ships and soldiers are waiting? If the Qunari want to make landfall, it either has to be through northern Thedas via Rivain and/or Antiva, or they would have to sail through the Amaranthine to hit the Free Marches or Ferelden. Or Both.

In the event that Dragon's Breath fails, they can simply redirect these already-mobilized forces on Tevinter, which is right next door, figuratively speaking.

If they were to hit the South at once, the ships would have to be in the water, with supply ships following them. Meaning, they would be waiting off the coasts of Ferelden and the Free Marches, waiting to hit shore while more still would sail west down the Waking Sea to hit Orlais and Nevarra. There might also be units hidden all throughout to cause conflict until the main forces reach those locations. Yet after Dragon's Breath was exposed, none of these things were observed. Why? Because there was no invasion planned. Viddasala was lying to you.

Landing on Rivain or Antiva would do nothing to the Free Marches, Nevarra, Orlais, or Ferelden. Par Vollen would have to sweep the entire South before their generals can replace the lost leaders. They can't sweep the South unless they had ships in the water waiting off the coasts of each nation. These can't just be redirected to Tevinter or Seheron, which lie in the opposite direction.

But Dai Grepher does? Please, come on now.

This isn't about me. You are suggesting the Qunari tried to start a war they had no hope of winning.

That probably sounded a lot better in your head.

It looks even better in context. You failed to answer it. You also neglected the next post of mine directly following that. So unless you are still working on a reply to that one, I'd say you've thoroughly failed to refute me.

[Almostfaceman]

And yet here we are after Trespasser with no war against Par Vollen. Hmm. And no new game on the horizon that will show the South AT ALL, let alone at war with anyone.
 

 

This isn't true either. First, we have Weekes saying that the Qunari are starting a war.

Second, we have the Qunari attacking the leadership of various Thedas governments. That they failed is inconsequential to the Qunari determination that they need to forcefully take over the rest of the world. In the Qunari mind, they are at war. Why else would they attack? They wanna be friends? 

Third, at the end of Trespasser the Qunari gather their strength and hit Tevinter so hard the rest of Thedas feels it.

 

https://youtu.be/mVagk9RyaoM?t=42s

 

That we have a game coming that won't show the South at all... that's not supported by anything the developers have said. And that's as silly as saying the previous games haven't had action in the North going on at all. There's been action between Tevinter and the Qunari in both Origins and DA2. We don't see it, but it is talked about. 

 

All we need is another War Table and we can be touching all of Thedas, even if most of our PC influence is in Tevinter.  

[Dai Grepher]

Just started a new play through of DA I yesterday. And while recruting Iron Bull the thought occured to me: What if the Vidisalla was Bull's direct Superior, or at least the person who ordered him to join the Inquisition?

Afterall Bull mentions that the Qun is concerned, specifically, with the breach and magic it is bringing to the table and the Inquisitor and Inquisition. What was madame vidi concerned with? The Breach, and magic. Her whole department of the Qun was concerned with such things. It is not an unreasonable assumption to make and leap of logic that she was the one really behind Bull all along. What does this mean to the argument? Not entirely sure. Discuss!

No, different branches. And Bull confirms that the Qunari are just trying to investigate the problems in the South to see if an invasion is required. Viddasala claimed that invasion was the answer as soon as they learned of the Breach, which is false. The Triumvirate agreed to the alliance and also sent the Inquisition more missions because it proved itself more effective than Viddasala's group. Personal jealousy, most likely.

Well, Viddasala does indeed seems to be a part for Qunari leadership, so - so long as she IF part of Qunari leadership, and not some rogue faction - her orders are respected.

However I don't think she can just approach a person, or member of another branch and be like "Hey, you? I order you to go with me!". The Qunari are all about rules and control - somebody somewhere would more than likely write a report or make a note somewhere that "this and that leader went there and took 10 people to work on this project".

But she handles reeducation as well. So this could give her a great deal of influence over any unsuspecting qunari or viddathari. Jerran was viddathari, but he knew Viddasala went mad. So Viddasala ordered that he be taken in for reeducation. Theoretically, she could call for reeducation over anyone who isn't parallel or above her in rank, which may have been what Hissrad was afraid of.

Which brings us another interesting detail think people who think she's a rogue tend to omit - the dead Qunari that we see in Winter Palace; the one that leads us to the eluvian and entire plot? It's NOT part of Ben-Hassarath; he's part of Antaam. You could say that it's Leliana claiming that, but Leliana actually seems to have done her homework and studied Qunari, including being able to read their language.

Now... why would warrior from Antaam would work with Viddasala if it wasn't a full-scale operation that involved more than Viddasala's Ben-Hassarath section?

I addressed this multiple times. The Viddasala and other agents of the Ben-Hassrath are able to request protection from the Antaam in various endeavors. The Antaam soldier we found could have been ordered to protect Ben-Hassrath agents as they work to destroy dangerous elven magic in the ruins.

Now, watch how I back this up with facts. The blood trail that we follow up to the eluvian leads to the eluvian that goes to the Darvarrad. So it is clear that the Qunari tried to go to the Darvarrad first. When he was unable to, he went to the nearest eluvian, which was the one leading to the palace. Solas is the one who caused him to go to that eluvian in order to escape. Also, the blood trail leads back further to the eluvian that goes to the elvhen ruins. It leads up the steps past another dead Qunari and all the way through to the lake (if I recall correctly).

So yes, that soldier was tasked with protecting the Ben-Hassrath in the elvhen ruins. There is nothing fishy about that.

And nobody in the game would mention that? Not even Iron Bull, be it Tal-Vashot or Qunverted one? "Oy, these people are weird - why would they follow a Ben-Hassarath?"

Um... Jerran clearly tells us that Viddasala is off her nut, and that the rest of the Qunari are only following her orders. Hissrad also confirms Viddasala is acting against her role. There is also text in the game confirming that the Antaam are used to protect Qunari in the field.

And why does nobody mentions it anywhere in fact - we find a lot of stuff written by Qunari and Viddathari. Nobody anywhere is like "Viddasala knows what she's doing, unlike others!" or "Hail Viddi".

We find exactly this in the Vir Dirthara and the Darvaarad in the form of the letter to the viddathari, and the animal trainer's journal.

Its too much of a logical stretch. This is a too big, too well-coordinated operation to be pulled by a rogue faction.

Well I just gave you the evidence you requested, so I am interested in reading if you agree with me now or not. As for a well-coordinated operation, how do you figure that? She had a few Antaam soldiers and some saarebas, and she had her agents and some viddathari who were questioning her. She had no one from the Arigena branch, she had no arvaarads to watch the saarebas, and she was concealing things from the Darvaarad's gatekeeper. How was this well-coordinated?

There are spies all across Orlais who work towards success of this mission; distributing the gaatlok not just through eluvians but through places or organizations they've infiltrated (the gaatlok in Winter Palace arrived with Inquisition).

Yes, through the use of elves and a few humans. However, those viddathari were reeducated by Viddasala. So even if those agents work for the Dangerous Questions branch, she can still trick them into doing her bidding thinking that the Qun demands it. All she has to do is give them an order. They know the price of disobedience.

It's impossible for all these spies to work with Viddasala. And if Viddasala's people were able to trip over Solas people how is it they never were found out by 'non-rogue' Qunari spies? You think they wouldn't find it suspicious that they're hauling Gaalok - a super-secret Qunari weapon everywhere all across the South?

The viddathari do not think for themselves. They only obey. The spies not in the loop would see the action and just assume that it was a demand from Qunadar. By the time these spies would think something was wrong, the gaatlok would already be in place and then be detonated.

And if someone mentions that Tal-Vashoth Iron Bull didn't fish either Qunari or "rogue QUnari" spies out, even though he's done that in post-Dreadnought explosion scene - the Qunari knows very well that he's working for Inquisition now. Specifically avoiding making one person suspicious is far easier than multitude of other "real Qunari" spies all throughout Thedas.

I think my above explanation answers that. Assuming Viddasala did not reach every viddathari spy in the Inquisition and redirect them, she still could have just told her spies to keep the mission a secret even from other viddathari spies, and especially don't raise any alarm around that Tal-Vashoth working for the Inquisition.

It would only require minimal effort for the Triuumverate to stop the Viddasala if she was rogue. Simply make a public pronouncement that the Viddasala was now Tal-Vashoth or have one of their agents pass a note to one of hers; the misled qunari would turn on her quickly, since they already have misgivings about the whole operation. Hell, just contact Iron Bull and give him some kind of official documentation; he can explain to every qunari he comes across what's happening.

Why do you think Viddasala intercepted Hissrad's letters and the reply letter back to Josephine? For exactly that reason. Par Vollen did command their agents to stop Viddasala, but this is a matter of TIME, not ease. The quickest way to the Darvaarad for the Triumvirate was by ship. Viddasala on the other hand could use the eluvians. She could cover greater distance than anyone else, and so could we. The Inquisitor arrived at the Darvaarad well before any Qunari from Par Vollen could, and he took care of the situation first. So again, it was a matter of time, not ease.

[Dai Grepher]

No one has given any thought to the basic logistics issue. The Vidassala can't possibly leave Qunari lands with such a massive force without resources.

What massive force? She had her own agents. She had some Antaam and some saarebas, and some viddathari. Her operations in the elvhen ruins were legitimate, destroy dangerous elven magic. Her presence at the Darvaarad was legitimate, that's where dangerous things are quarantined. That is how she got her resources.

And the qunari she leaves with aren't complete morons - they have some basic sense of their own task.

Yes. Obey the Viddasala. Do not think. Do not question.

The idea that she left without authority to implement a plan similar to the current one is nonsense.

It's nonsense to believe that a hasty plot to set off a few bombs will somehow make the South easier to invade. It's nonsense to believe the Triumvirate would risk starting a world war when the plan has far to many unknown variables. It's nonsense to twist Weekes' words out of meaning and context to support your baseless theory.

The more interesting question is whether everything is authorised. From what Weekes has said it sounds like even super-Saarebas was part of the plan and I'm not sure that's within the about of the Vidassala's role. But there's a good counter argument. Once you accept the Qunari view that all magic is bad and you admit that for the purpose of the invasion some magic has to be used, it's not hard to see them come to the view that any magic can be used.

If that were the case, Qunari templars would be used. But that idea was scrapped, and if any official invasion were part of the first storyline, then it was scrapped along with it.

In the case of the Viddasala commanding Antaam members, I think it can be explained rather easily if we assume that the Triumvirate delegated such authority to her.

This is an option for all Ben-Hassrath leaders. Any of them can request Antaam soldiers to protect their agents.

There's also the matter of how Saarebas are not taught any forms of healing magic.

If the Qunari really thought magic is to dangerous to use, why'd they only ever allow mages under the Qun to learn destruction magic and mold them into living artillery weapons? That really doesn't sound like the Qunari don't mean to unleash them on their enemies when they feel it is appropriate.

The Qunari do not teach the saarebas any magic. They simply allow them to exist in chains. Their destructive capabilities manifest naturally, as that is the simplest magic to make.

Remember Vivienne's statements about a mage child coming into his own? A boy accidentally rips his mother apart with lightning because he's angry. He loses control and that destructive power simply manifests. I think there was another example from Meneave about how she made fire with her fist on accident. Wynne talks about how she lit a boy's eyebrows on fire. Mages pull energy through the Veil, and the most basic energies are usually destructive. Spells of creation, or the finely honed uses of elemental energies all require practice and knowledge.

Which makes the use of them by Viddasala point even more to the idea that her superiors authorised them to be deployed for this mission, as the Qunari clearly aren't just screwing around if they're planning to assassinate government officials, religious leaders and heads of state across southern Thedas. Bringing out the Saarebas should be a sign that the Qunari are deadly serious about what they're doing.

Wrong. It's proof the Triumvirate had nothing to do with it. The saarebas were not there to attack southern leaders. The gaatlok was supposed to do that. And sending amateur mages against a South full of templars and true mages makes no sense. Even if the saarebas don't flip out and start attacking allies like Saarath did, the templars would easily be able to defeat them by suppressing their magic. Then they're just targets in shackles.

I hadn't the impression that they truly lost control of Saarath. True, he escaped the control rod and fled at some point. But he quickly returned to prevent the Inquisitor from meddling with the Viddasala. Truth been told, it was the moment which impressed me the most in the DLC. The music, Saarath powers and the very fact he had returned to fight for his fellow Qunari. That was thrilling.

He turns into a blue ring ally and he attacks other Qunari. So what if he attacked you again at the end? He still lost control and was blasting magic out everywhere.

[midnight tea]

And yet here we are after Trespasser with no war against Par Vollen. Hmm. And no new game on the horizon that will show the South AT ALL, let alone at war with anyone.

 

 

It amazes me that you're still using that non-argument, after I pointed out the holes the size of the moon in it...

 

This is beyond childish. We pretty much KNOW that DA4 will be a fairly large continuation of DAI. We pretty much KNOW they set up large Qunari presence and conflict in future game. And we most certainly KNOW that we will be heading to the country Qunari has now set as their target after Inquisition thwarted their attempt to assassinate Southern leaders! It's there, in the game!

 

Like... I'd facepalm myself out of frustration with you, but I'm afraid of giving myself a concussion 

[Dai Grepher]

It amazes me that you're still using that non-argument, after I pointed out the holes the size of the moon in it...

This is beyond childish. We pretty much KNOW that DA4 will be a fairly large continuation of DAI. We pretty much KNOW they set up large Qunari presence and conflict in future game. And we most certainly KNOW that we will be heading to the country Qunari has now set as their target

A country that is not part of the South. Which was the entire point of the discussion you replied to.

[Almostfaceman]

 

Like... I'd facepalm myself out of frustration with you, but I'm afraid of giving myself a concussion 

 

Don't let them frustrate you. It's probably what they want. I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to get someone to say something (out of emotion) that'll get the thread locked. 

 

For me, it helps that I approach this conversation as not so much directed at Dai Grepher, rather at an argument. I also think it helps our argument to draw out their argument. Their argument is so poor it can only help our argument. 

[thesuperdarkone2]

A country that is not part of the South. Which was the entire point of the discussion you replied to.

Tell me, what exactly do you think the qunari would have done if Viddasala's plan had succeeded?

[midnight tea]

A country that is not part of the South. Which was the entire point of the discussion you replied to.

 

A country that IS South from Par Vollen. And one that was picked as their next target after South has thwarted their attempt to sneakily invade them - a  fact that you keep denying.

[midnight tea]

Don't let them frustrate you. It's probably what they want. I wouldn't be surprised if they're trying to get someone to say something (out of emotion) that'll get the thread locked. 

 

For me, it helps that I approach this conversation as not so much directed at Dai Grepher, rather at an argument. I also think it helps our argument to draw out their argument. Their argument is so poor it can only help our argument. 

 

Yeah, well, it's he arguments that make me facepalm most of the time   It's just that most of them happen to be coming form one source.

[Almostfaceman]

Yeah, well, it's he arguments that make me facepalm most of the time   It's just that most of them happen to be coming form one source.

 

Here's some fun to lighten the mood then.

 

[IllustriousT]

Wrong. It's proof the Triumvirate had nothing to do with it. The saarebas were not there to attack southern leaders. The gaatlok was supposed to do that. And sending amateur mages against a South full of templars and true mages makes no sense. Even if the saarebas don't flip out and start attacking allies like Saarath did, the templars would easily be able to defeat them by suppressing their magic. Then they're just targets in shackles.
 

 

But...the Qunari have used saarabas as a shock-n-awe tactic before, and successfully. 

 

 

 

Here's some fun to lighten the mood then.

 

 

 Too fun!

[Tatar Foras]

My god, still going at it? For 43 pages? 

 

[BansheeOwnage]

I explained this to you multiple times. "The Qunari" refers to the group of Qunari we fought in Trespasser. Those Qunari were real Qunari. Those Qunari were trying to start a war, by Viddasala's order. But Viddasala was not authorized to do anything of the sort.

This concept is not difficult to understand. You simply refuse to acknowledge this because you have no way to refute it.

You really missed the entire point of what Weekes was trying to say, didn't you?

That this group of Qunari is the Qunari. They are the same thing. Not rogue, not an offshoot, but The Qunari. It's like you can read his words, but can't get the meaning behind them.

 

I thought this concept was not difficult to understand, but apparently...

 

Also, Weekes only confirmed that the Qunari we fought in the DLC were not rogue. He said nothing of Viddasala, whom we did not get the chance to fight.

You really are way too literal-minded. There is more than one meaning of fight. We did fight her. Just because we didn't cross swords doesn't mean we didn't fight. Confront. Oppose.

 

Like, seriously? You argument is that she can still be rogue because we didn't "fight" her? Give me a break, you're grasping at straws. Weekes already said you were wrong, you just didn't understand what he was saying, somehow. I wish he'd come here and tell you directly, though even that might not be enough.

[ModernAcademic]

The people engaged in the discussion coming to check on the thread each time after Dai Grepher replies:

 

 

 

The moderators:

 

 

 

Normal forumites beginning to read the thread:

 

 

 

Me plus 2 or 3 dudes n' gals silently watching from the sidelines:

 

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Here's some fun to lighten the mood then.

 

I've actually met a dog that could do that! /off-topic

[Almostfaceman]

The people engaged in the discussion coming to check on the thread each time after Dai Grepher replies:

 

 

Actually my reaction feels a little more like this:

 

[Xerrai]

The people engaged in the discussion coming to check on the thread each time after Dai Grepher replies:

 

 

 

The moderators:

 

 

 

Normal forumites beginning to read the thread:

 

 

 

Me plus 2 or 3 dudes n' gals silently watching from the sidelines:

 

 

You hush.

Just chill and let it all happen.

[Addictress]

Many gifs
]

This is the most accurate and poignant gif summary I've ever seen omg

[Dai Grepher]

Interesting. It seems you can't follow the logic of a paragraph. This is what I said.

I read what you wrote. You claimed Weekes' statements were your source. I proved that his statements do not even mention anything in your claims, let alone support them. So, any actual sources?

I'm aware of the "like" button, yes. I like statements all the time, as I'm sure you've noticed. That doesn't always mean I totally agree with any statement however. I can like parts of a statement, or like a statement for bringing up interesting points that I then disagree with later on and use to further the discussion. So, the "like" button isn't necessarily someone totally agreeing with you. You're still all alone in making your particular argument, so far that I've seen.

So what part of my post, which only refutes the original poster's assertion, did these people like exactly? Was it the spelling? The grammar? The punctuation? Did they click the Like button by mistake when they intended to only quote the post so they could reply as to how much they don't agree with me?

I said that the Qunari government are the ones who decide who's following the Qun or not. My argument is based on Weekes statement, that the Qunari government disavowed the Arishok, and didn't disavow the Viddasala.

But they did disavow her. And Weekes made no statement about Viddasala or the Triumvirate or who was or wasn't disavowed. I think you're just proving my point about how you and others on your side are simply projecting your own ideas onto Weekes' statements. Nothing he said in the interview or the conference supports your theory.

So I didn't agree with you. I don't accept the letter in Trespasser as anything other than the Qunari government pretending to disavow the Viddasala. The Qunari government didn't pretend in the case of the Arishok.

Ah, so fanfiction then. You take a fact from the game and put your own idea behind it. That explains a lot.

Don't ask for any other sources. My source is Weekes statement. If you don't accept that source, then that's what you say.

No, I accept him as a source, but his statements don't support your theory. That's the problem you're having here. See, I know you don't accept facts as facts, you accept facts as a basis to create fanfiction around. You're doing the same with Weekes' statements. I on the other hand accept facts as facts, unless there is some other fact that puts the first one into doubt. Like if Trespasser presented some other piece of evidence that the Triumvirate letter was subterfuge, then I would consider that evidence over the letter. But as it stands, there is only accompanying evidence that the letter was legitimate and true. Likewise, Weekes' statements do not even mention Viddasala, the Triumvirate letter, or the legitimacy of Dragon's Breath.

Let me put it to you this way. I was involved in a debate a while back in which I essentially had to prove that a certain character in a story was lying to another when she stated a specific phrase. I couldn't just claim she was lying, I had to actually find evidence that she was lying and also that what she said contradicted other facts. I also had to prove she had a motive. You on the other hand have only claimed that the Triumvirate's message was a lie, without evidence and without motive. Doesn't it tell you something that your go to "source" is something outside of the DLC, that is, Weekes' interview statements? You can't find anything in Trespasser that supports your theory, so you turn to Weekes. Okay, and Weekes' statements mention nothing in your theory. So what exactly are you left with here?

I don't feel the need for more sources in the matter, since my argument ultimately rests on Weekes statement. Weekes has the final say and it's clear.
You don't show an understanding of Weekes statement, going by the arguments you're using. That would be the point of our disagreement.

Well then I will just go line by line again and show you how wrong you are.

"That said, when we got to the Qunari, we kicked around different ways to do it. We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,'"

No mention of Viddasala, the Triumvirate letter, or the legitimacy of Dragon's Breath. Weekes makes the distinction of what "rogue" means to him. A rogue group is not part of the real Qunari. The official Qunari from Par Vollen.

"and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.'""

No mention of Viddasala, the Triumvirate letter, or the legitimacy of Dragon's Breath. He said they tried to talk themselves into making them not part of Qunari society. Weekes also mentions something very interesting here. Who wants to play a game where you are… FIGHTING the offshoot? So he clearly identifies the qunari he is talking about here as the ones we fight in the game, just as I told you numerous times.

"We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it. And in that case, the only reasonable outcome was that if you hadn't gotten Iron Bull out of the Qun, it made no sense for him to do anything but turn on you."

No mention of Viddasala, the Triumvirate letter, or the legitimacy of Dragon's Breath. Here Weekes said they own the qunari, so if they are going to say the Qunari are going to start a war, then let's have the real Qunari start a war. Starting a war is not the same thing as authorizing a war. Any Qunari can start a war. Only the Triumvirate can authorize it. The Qunari we fought were real Qunari, and for this reason, if you didn't get Bull out of the Qun, then he sides with his fellow real Qunari.

"It's one of those things where, you know, I don't know if we would have done things differently if we had known 'Oh we definitely want to have the Qunari in the Trespasser DLC, and what does that do for Iron Bull?', if we had known that years and years ahead of time, if we would have changed Iron Bull's plot somewhere, had him start as a Tal'Vashoth, or something like that, but I really like that choice. I love that we gave you a choice, and that it didn't immediately have a white hat and a black hat on it. And that it was a choice that had teeth;"

No mention of Viddasala, the Triumvirate letter, or the legitimacy of Dragon's Breath. Weekes states they had the real Qunari in the Trespasser DLC. Again, I never wrote anything to the contrary. The issue is if they were authorized to attack the South. Weekes says nothing of their authorization.

So there you go Almostfaceman, your "source" has been proven to not support any of your claims.

Yes, I don't accept this explanation. I've already explained why.

You're free to reject it in favor of your fanfiction, but unless you can refute my explanation, then you will never win this discussion. So far, all you've done is say "it's impossible Weekes is referring to anything else", and when I prove that he could be referring to only the Qunari we fought, you merely reject this without explaining why it can't be.

This is a failure to understand the context of Weekes statement. There's only one group of Qunari he's talking about and they're the ones that "start a war". The only group to whom Iron Bull reports. That would be the Qunari government.

By that illogic, the Arishok and his men were real Qunari, and thus trying to start a war, because there's "only one group of Qunari". No, when the Arishok attacked Kirkwall, he went against the Triumvirate's wishes. He and his men became its own group of real Qunari. Just as Viddasala and her real Qunari became its own group when she went against the Triumvirate's wishes. This doesn't mean either group was "rogue" or an "offshoot". It means in both cases, real agents acted without authorization, and misled their groups of real Qunari.

I do not fail to understand the context of Weekes' statements. You are projecting your own context onto Weekes' statements. I am taking his statements literally.

This isn't true either. First, we have Weekes saying that the Qunari are starting a war.

I don't disagree that Viddasala's small group was trying to start a war. The fact of the matter is that they failed to do so. Trespasser clearly shows this. Not only is there no war with the South, but in the alliance worldstate Par Vollen even asks Divine Victoria for help in defeating Tevinter. That would make Par Vollen and the South allies, not enemies.

Second, we have the Qunari attacking the leadership of various Thedas governments.

We have one small misled group attacking the leadership of various southern governments without the Triumvirate's authorization.

[Dai Grepher]

That they failed is inconsequential to the Qunari determination that they need to forcefully take over the rest of the world.

It is consequential to the fact that they aren't at war with the South right now.

In the Qunari mind, they are at war. Why else would they attack? They wanna be friends?

They didn't attack. Viddasala did, without authorization. It would be like if Gaspard attacked Ferelden without Empress Celine's authorization.

Third, at the end of Trespasser the Qunari gather their strength and hit Tevinter so hard the rest of Thedas feels it.

Oh here you go again, reading your own fanfiction into things. The slides only say,

"Few knew what debates were waged in Par Vollen, but not long after the Exalted Council, the Qunari launched new attacks against Tevinter."

"Their aggression caught the already unstable Imperium off guard. Tevinter was soon mired in a war many feared could spread across Thedas."

I also find the following slides rather ironic...

"Cassandra continued her reign as Divine Victoria, working to ensure that the Inquisition's disbanding did not allow new enemies to rise."

"Her efforts were successful, and –for a time– southern Thedas saw peace."

Wow! That's some war you have raging in your headcanon, Almostfaceman.

The slides only state that the renewed aggression caught the already unstable Imperium off guard. Many were afraid that their war could spread across all of Thedas. Nothing about gathered strength. Nothing about how the rest of Thedas "feels it". The Qunari were aggressive with Tevinter for a long time, they reduced this and were essentially engaging in formalities, and now they have become aggressive again.

But this just proves how you make stuff up and project it onto what you read.

That we have a game coming that won't show the South at all... that's not supported by anything the developers have said. And that's as silly as saying the previous games haven't had action in the North going on at all. There's been action between Tevinter and the Qunari in both Origins and DA2. We don't see it, but it is talked about.
All we need is another War Table and we can be touching all of Thedas, even if most of our PC influence is in Tevinter.

This was in reply to midnight tea's assertion that we will see war in the next game. I pointed out that the next game is suggested to take place in the North, not the South.

Stop reading into things.

The word of "god" is againt Dai Grepher.

No it isn't.

The fact he is jumping through hoops to perform verbal gymnastics similar to the worst politician just to keep the argument going is proof enough he will never admit he is flat out wrong.

Quoting the lead writer exactly isn't jumping through hoops. Taking what he says literally isn't performing verbal gymnastics.

Tell me, what exactly do you think the qunari would have done if Viddasala's plan had succeeded?

They would have disavowed her anyway, not attacked the South, and made a public statement that they did not sanction that attack. Same as they did for the Arishok if his plan succeeded in drawing out the tome and/or the thief. They would then go on about their business building their forces for the day they would invade.

But you need not take my word for it, we see in Trespasser's epilogue that there was no invasion planned. No ships in the water. No military units lying in wait. No supply lines set up. It was all just Viddasala and her small group of deceived Qunari.

A country that IS South from Par Vollen.

A country that is not considered part of the South. That it is south(west) and also west relative to Par Vollen is irrelevant. When the game refers to the "South", it is referring to everything south of the Imperium.

And one that was picked as their next target after South has thwarted their attempt to sneakily invade them - a fact that you keep denying.

Tevinter had been their target for centuries before this. Tevinter was their target during this. Of course it is still their target afterward.

I don't deny that Par Vollen is sneakily invading the South with spies and such. But it is not a fact that Par Vollen tried to invade the South through Dragon's Breath. That is your baseless theory.

But...the Qunari have used saarabas as a shock-n-awe tactic before, and successfully.

In a raid during an open war with no Accords in place, not as the basis for a new war effort that would nullify the Accords. Also those saarebas were not being experimented on by being fed lyrium. Apples and oranges. My claim is that they would not risk a new war campaign on saarebas, and especially not ones being fed lyrium.

[Dai Grepher]

You really missed the entire point of what Weekes was trying to say, didn't you?

No. He was trying to explain why Hissrad turns on you.

That this group of Qunari is the Qunari. They are the same thing. Not rogue, not an offshoot, but The Qunari. It's like you can read his words, but can't get the meaning behind them.

No, I understand them perfectly, and I agree that those Qunari were real Qunari. I never claimed otherwise.

I thought this concept was not difficult to understand, but apparently...
You really are way too literal-minded. There is more than one meaning of fight. We did fight her. Just because we didn't cross swords doesn't mean we didn't fight. Confront. Oppose.

"It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot?'" –Patrick Weekes

I have come to find out that "too literal" usually means that the other side dislikes that I use facts. Weekes identifies them as possibly being a rogue group, but then saying they were real Qunari. So he was indeed referring to the ones we fought in combat.

Like, seriously? You argument is that she can still be rogue because we didn't "fight" her?

No. My argument is that Weekes did not mention her at all in any of his statements, so whether Weekes sees her as rogue or not is unknown.

Weekes already said you were wrong, you just didn't understand what he was saying, somehow. I wish he'd come here and tell you directly, though even that might not be enough.

No, Weekes said I was right. And if he comes here and settles the issue once and for all, I will accept that.

[thats1evildude]

 

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