1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Andromelek]

Wait what? It was full armor, that is not an ultra heavy armor does not make it incomplete..... Ah, nevermind, I'll just be a Sangheili for the rest of this thread.

[thats1evildude]

Three more pages to 50, people. I feel like I should be making gifs or something to celebrate.

[Andromelek]

Three more pages to 50, people. I feel like I should be making gifs or something to celebrate.

I'm actually quite surprised that confused Travolta hasn't made into here.... I mean... *wort wort wort*.

[Exile Isan]

All I've taken away from this thread is that some posters don't know how the Qun works. 

[GoldenGail3]

All I've taken away from this thread is that some posters don't know how the Qun works. 

Yeah, but it's hilarious to watch thought...

[Darkstarr11]

I've glanced at the counter argument.  We've listened to the interview, multiple times (I've listened to it at least five).  We know what we heard.  We don't have to prove otherwise.  The burden of proof is on those that DON'T think the Viddisala was authorized.  Weekes doesn't actually have to open his mouth.  It's in Trespasser.  

 

You're pretty much alone on this one.  That's your right.  It takes courage to stand alone.

 

 Good luck to you on that.  

 

 

 

EDIT:  BTW, I totally mean that as a compliment.  While I totally disagree, and have made my opinion known, I truly admire anyone who has such a conviction in their stance.  This is 47 pages, and Dai hasn't budged.  No matter the argument, Dai has stood firm.  Gotta admire that.  Takes a lot to weather that much criticism.  It wasn't a stealth insult, but then I thought many wouldn't have seen the original stage play, so...FYI.  

[thats1evildude]

"It takes a strong man to deny what's right in front of him. And if the truth is undeniable ... you create your own."
-Spec Ops: The Line

[TobiTobsen]

This entire thread is the Bioware forum in a nutshell.

 

[thats1evildude]

Incidentally, regarding the earlier discussion, here's where Iron Bull mentions the qunari wear full armor when going to war:

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=hGXKbU_RHOg

[lynroy]

This entire thread is the Bioware forum in a nutshell.

QFT

/thread

[Almostfaceman]

I can say for my part that I think I've thoroughly explored this argument with Dai Grepher. There's nothing more I can add. None of his arguments have been convincing. They could have cast some doubt if we didn't have the statements from Weekes, but we do. The issue is settled as far as I'm concerned. 

 

IF there's anyone else who's been reading this thread, or later comes along and wants to open up more debate, I'm more than willing. A lot has already been said, but it's a lot of pages to wade through for a person new to the thread. 

 

So I'll probably jump in a lot less if it just remains Grepher who's continuing the argument. I get bored, so I can't say I'll stop completely. 

 

And now for a humorous non-sequitur.

 

[Mistic]

Incidentally, regarding the earlier discussion, here's where Iron Bull mentions the qunari wear full armor when going to war:

https://m.youtube.co...h?v=hGXKbU_RHOg

 

Thank you. With all the context, now we know that Qunari warriors not having much armor is not exactly weird for them, unless they're definitely going to battle (that is weird for other Thedosians, who like their soldiers in full armor as often as possible, is a different matter).

 

Given that the soldiers in Tresspasser were tasked with protecting the operations and not lead the invasion themselves, it makes sense they wore light armor... or didn't they? Barring Sten and the Qunari Inquisitor, who wore Southern armor, the Qunari seen in Tresspasser are the most armored we've seen in any DA material.

[The Ascendant]

This is a war of annihilation. The Qunari and the Qun must be eradicated before they do the same to us. Not genocide mind you. I have no issue with the races of the Qun, just the practitioners. They have made themselves into the enemy of all Thedas by their actions and way of life. All support must be made to our stalwart and noble allies in the Tevinter Imperium. 

[In Exile]

 

Actually, it's been explained that though Qunari adhere to a role, they're aren't incapable of performing another if the situation calls for it. I believe the codex explains this at some point. If a baker needs to fight, she will. If a Viddasala or Hissrad crafts gaatlok when pressed, they are not going outside their role. You can have a problem with that if you want, but it's how the Qun works.

That's not performing a different role, however. It's important to understand that the Qun is all about a priori arbitrary categories. It's not the act of fighting that makes you a fighter. It's being designed (determined, or assigned) the role of fighter. An antaam isn't expected to starve if left alone in the forest, but if he cooks a dead rabbit he isn't suddenly a cook. 

 

That's the insane troll logic they use. Trying to apply an empirical based understanding to the Qun is a failing proposition, because the Qun is based on active reality denial. 

[Sifr]

You've been applying your own interpretations to his words, and coming up with a completely different meaning.
 
I refuted your misinterpretation of Weekes' interview statements. That wins me the whole thread right there. But I have also gone on to explain why Dragon's Breath wasn't authorized, and pointed out all the ways Viddasala was acting outside of the Qun. I have also pointed to examples from DA2 supporting the concept of real Qunari who are not authorized. No one has refuted a single fact or argument I have posted here.

 

Does it not strike you as odd how how so many people have taken those words in precisely the same way? If everyone else in a room sees a painting that you do not, that does not mean it's not there, it means you've probably got your eyes closed or are looking in the wrong direction.

 

We've repeatedly pointed out that the context of what both Weekes and Epler show the writers intent that these were real Qunari operating under orders from Par Vollen and constantly had you deflect the issue that the writers clarified they did not want these to be a rogue faction. Your constant denial of these facts from the words of the people who gave us the DLC is bizarre, when even they refute your argument.

 

Fairly certain that does not mean you've won the thread, if even the writer's words disagree with you.

 

Correct, and this is in direct conflict with what Viddasala claims, which is that the Qunari decided to launch an invasion effort the moment they saw the Breach. We know this is false based on the fact that the Qunari are pleased with the reports of all the problems being fixed in the South, and because they form an alliance with the Inquisition. They also save Denerim from being burned down, and help clear out Venatori spies from all parts of the South. Then after this they entrust various missions to the Inquisition because it is better suited to handle it than their own agents.

She also makes the contradictory claim that they left the South to curb the Inquisitor's magic, and their failure to do so called for invasion from Par Vollen. This contradicts her own statement about the invasion being for the Breach. It also goes against the Triumvirate's actions if it started the alliance and entrusted more missions to the Inquisition to solve. Then there's the fact that the Exalted Council was called to do exactly what Viddasala said it had failed to do, curb the Inquisitor's power. So why would they try to attack before the Inquisition had its power and forces reduced? Better to wait until afterward.

 

The Qunari are pleased because the Inquisition has dealt with those various problems for them, eliminating any issues that would bog down their eventual invasion of the South without any collateral damage to Qunari forces. Why lose your forces taking down Venatori or having to rebuild a burned down Denerim, when you can hand the information to the Inquisition to carry out the Qunari's will, risking them nothing in the process?

 

Viddasala's meaning was that they thought the South would either destroy itself or curb it's own magic if left to their own devices, whatever the outcome of the Mage-Templar War happened to be. At this point, the conflict didn't threaten them and wasn't considered a problem, who cares if everyone in the South died?

 

The emergence of the Breach however proved that magic in the south was simply too dangerous to be left unchecked, especially as it was the second magical explosion had occurred within the past half-decade. It proved to the Qunari that it was not in the good of Thedas for them to standby and watch from afar, lest their non-intervention fail to prevent magic from threatening the world again.

 

I'm sure Par Vollen has been building the war machine for ages. That makes no difference about anything. The point is that they didn't know if they needed to invade the South or not. Hissrad was sent to find out. The answer was "not", so they didn't invade. Now the Breach is two years closed, and the Exalted Council is talking about checking the Inquisitor's power. So based on Viddasala's rationale, Par Vollen has no reason to invade the South right now.

 

Bull's mission was to infiltrate the Inquisition and report back to his superiors the means of their operations, he tells us this in his first conversation. He never said his purpose was to prevent the invasion from taking place, nor that he has the rank or seniority to make that decision. He merely hoped that his reports would ease some minds back home, not convince them to call anything off.

 

The Exalted Council has a lot of major players from the South in attendance, the Divine, clerics from the Chantry, political ambassadors, the Inquisitions entire top brass...it's the perfect venue for the Qunari to cut off the head of every single power in one fell swoop. The game even tells us this directly when they discuss how terrifying it was that Dragon's Breath nearly succeeded, with even Leliana stating that wiping out all opposition at once was tactically a brilliant move.

 

That isn't my argument though. My point about the alliance is that it is proof that the Triumvirate sees no reason to invade at present. It doesn't need to invade to stop the Breach, or Corypheus, or to curb any kind of magic. The Triumvirate is better off trying to topple Tevinter first, and leave the Llomeryn Accords in place until they are ready to conquer the South.

 

The alliance is temporary and not bound in any agreement save for that the Qunari find it a useful tool. Despite what you seem to think, they're not going to honour it any more than the Llomeryn Accords (a bit of paper to them) when they invade.

 

I hope you see the absurdity of her statement. The Qunari trusted bas to curb their own magic? When it allegedly plotted to invade to stop that magic themselves? Hmph! And now they see they should have stepped in long ago? Then why trust more missions to the Inquisition that is so clearly out of control?

 

The Qunari left the South alone hoping that they'd find a more Qunari way of dealing with their mages, believing that the carelessness with which they treated them would eventually destroy them. The war was proof that the South could no longer be trusted to control their mages, the Breach being created by magic cemented this as fact to the Qunari, that they needed to step in now and do something about it.

 

Yeah, complete contradiction of what Iron Bull said when we met him. The Qunari didn't even know what was happening, let alone how to fix it. Killing the Southern leaders would have done nothing at all.

 

Bull states that they want to invade and Viddasala states part of the plan was to eventually remove all their leaders, how is that a contradiction? You assume that the invasion was meant to be immediate following the Breach, rather than something that they were gearing up for in preparation to strike.

 

The reason that Bull was sent to the Inquisition because they were the only group doing anything about the Breach, as well as having someone with a magical glowing hand that could seal rifts. Compared to the other groups in the south at the time DAI starts, the Inquisition were the best chance to close the Breach and the Inquisitor's ability was a necessary evil the Qunari could tolerate.

 

Still, we can gather from Viddasala that not all Qunari were happy with the Inquisitor running around unchecked, as it was our task to close the Breach and we fulfilled that role, yet the mark was still a threat to the entire world because of the power it held.

 

Try to look at this from my perspective. Why is Viddasala explaining all of this to someone she intends to kill? What's the point?

 

Why monologue her plans to us if she wants to kill us? Because the Mark is going to kill us anyway, something she even points out. Even if we aren't killed by her forces, we're still a dead man walking in her eyes and not in any real position to tell anyone else.

[Sifr]

And if this was supposed to be a covert operation that the Triumvirate could distance itself from at any time, then why is Viddasala implicating them? Because that's her true plan. Not to kill all the leaders, though if she does it's a bonus for her, but rather to start a war with the South. She's dissatisfied with the Triumvirate's approach to conquering the world. She thinks her way is better. So she's taking matters into her own hands and she's trying to make you think Par Vollen has committed an act of war against the South.

 

This is speculation and your opinion. It is not fact, nor does it correlate with what the writer's said.
 

It was called off for the purpose of answering the problem of the Breach. They intend to invade one day, but not any time soon.

 

We were never told it was called off.

 

Bull never says his reports will prevent an invasion taking place, just that he hoped it might.
 

They didn't know if invasion was even called for in dealing with the Breach. Hissrad was sent there to find out. But sure, they would prefer bas deal with the Breach. So what? Doesn't mean they planned to invade before beating Tevinter. You don't spread your forces before your worst enemy is defeated.

 

We all know that Par Vollen intends to invade one day. But there is ZERO to suggest that Dragon's Breath was part of any invasion plot. They plan to invade, just not during Trespasser or any time soon.

 

I'm sorry, did you play even Trespasser?

 

It was made very clear that Dragon's Breath was critical to the invasion plan's success. Hence the reason Viddasala lamented that it's failure was the reason why they needed to take "the way of blades" and launch a conventional invasion, because they'd failed to perform a tactical precision strike to remove the majority of their opposition in the South.

 

No, I mean the members of the Beresaad, like the dead Qunari we found. He was wearing some plate armor and some wicker baskets. That isn't full armor.

Sten's nightmare in Origins shows his fellow Qunari in full armor.

 

There weren't any Qunari armour assets in DAO, nor were they any ways to show them with horns, hence why we see a surprising amount of this supposedly "rare" trait popping up all over in Ferelden. For that matter, there weren't any canon Warden armours until DA2 either.

 

For all we know other dreams can influence the dream or see it differently, which as the Warden has never seen a Qunari with horns, nor Qunari armour, is why they're hornless and in generic full-plate in that nightmare?

 

Save for Sten who is canonically hornless, we probably should take their depiction in Origins with a grain of salt.

 

Not sure what this has to do with anything I wrote, but the gatekeeper writes that he will request a murder knife from his Sten. As for the Adaar, he or she may have been misusing the term out of ignorance. Iron Bull isn't a Sten.

 

Bull isn't a Sten, but he does carry out the duties of one by leading the Chargers, fitting the role of an infantry platoon commander as a Sten would.

 

Or maybe he's just being informative. Or there are different divisions in the Arishok branch. I think I remember reading something about navy units being called something else.

 

Which is what I was getting at, that there are Sten serving under different positions in various capacities. Are all guards in highly secret Qunari facilities members of the antaam, or are they instead members of the Ben-Hassrath that serve as guards. Bull might be a spy, but even when he was in Seheron his job involved leading troops, so we know they are trained to fight and serve as ad hoc soldiers.

[Sifr]

They both back me up 100% in the conference, as I already proved.

 

He said the Qunari are an invading force from across the sea that hates magic. We saw this in Trespasser. So what's your point? We already established that those Viddasala commanded were real Qunari.

 

I've watched the conference and I found nothing there that even comes close to backing your argument up whatsoever, especially when it comes to anything that would imply Viddasala was carrying out a rogue operation. They spend more time in the panel talking about the aborted plan for Qunari Templars, rather than anything that denies the authenticity of this being a legit invasion.

 

The only time they do bring up the Qunari is when they give the quote about them being "an invading force from across the sea who hate magic".

 

How does them using the words "invading force" in relation to the Qunari, not tip you off that this was an invasion attempt that was obviously planned? Especially when we've had the hints dropped about them wanting to invade for three games.

 

(Apologies to everyone for the massive posts, wouldn't let me post it all in one)

[Kurogane335]

This is a war of annihilation. The Qunari and the Qun must be eradicated before they do the same to us. Not genocide mind you. I have no issue with the races of the Qun, just the practitioners. They have made themselves into the enemy of all Thedas by their actions and way of life. All support must be made to our stalwart and noble allies in the Tevinter Imperium. 

 

Yes, let us all endorse the disgusting and highly corruptive societies and culture of Thedas against the only one which has managed to actually create a vastly superior society, both morally and in practice. What could go wrong in the world after that, right ?

[Serza]

Other than nobody having free will, Commie?

[Kurogane335]

Other than nobody having free will, Commie?

That's pure bullshit. We have had plenty of demonstrations of free will among the Qunari. You can pretend that they have not, just like you can pretend that other societies (or even Western democracies IRL) have free will. But in both case you would be wrong. In the former, because there has been examples of freewill among the Qunari proper. In the latter because try to actually have an opinion which truly differ from the statu quo protected by the "powers" of a society and try to become vocal about it and you will soon discover that said society will be entirely staked against you and your opinions.

 

The sole true difference between the Qun and the rest of Thedas is that in the former, no matter your birth, if you have the qualities to lead, you will rise through the ranks. In the latter, if you're born a  peasant, you will die at such, except if you join the Wardens or happens to be a mage.

[midnight tea]

That's pure bullshit. We have had plenty of demonstrations of free will among the Qunari.

 

Where are those "plenty" demonstrations? From what I've seen most of demonstrations of free will among Qunari ended up with declaring that Qunari a Tal-Vashoth, demoting, killing or re-educating them.

[robertthebard]

That's pure bullshit. We have had plenty of demonstrations of free will among the Qunari. You can pretend that they have not, just like you can pretend that other societies (or even Western democracies IRL) have free will. But in both case you would be wrong. In the former, because there has been examples of freewill among the Qunari proper. In the latter because try to actually have an opinion which truly differ from the statu quo protected by the "powers" of a society and try to become vocal about it and you will soon discover that said society will be entirely staked against you and your opinions.
 
The sole true difference between the Qun and the rest of Thedas is that in the former, no matter your birth, if you have the qualities to lead, you will rise through the ranks. In the latter, if you're born a  peasant, you will die at such, except if you join the Wardens or happens to be a mage.

Loghain says "Hello".

[thats1evildude]

More accurately, the Qun breeds individuals to fill specific roles. Obviously they can't control everything and an individual might show aptitude for something they weren't bred to do, but someone like the Arishok was likely reared to be a commander of some kind. When he turned out to be freakishly strong and big while still intelligent, they put him in charge of the entire military.

[Mistic]

The sole true difference between the Qun and the rest of Thedas is that in the former, no matter your birth, if you have the qualities to lead, you will rise through the ranks. In the latter, if you're born a  peasant, you will die at such, except if you join the Wardens or happens to be a mage.

 

Ironically, that's exactly the same message that Tevinter sells, although in their case the "qualities to lead" are magic and more magic. Dorian explains in DA:I that Tevinter loves stories of mage heroes that came from humble origins.

 

Of course, one might say "what about Tevinter hopefuls that don't have magic?". To that, there's also the question: "what about Qunari hopefuls that do have magic?".

[IllustriousT]

The debate has changed?