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[In Exile]

Or a brilliant soldier (on paper) who wants to bake? That's impossible under the Qun.

[Kurogane335]

You have a fallacy here. Why a Qunari who would have become a soldier because of what he was inclined to during his youth, would suddenly want to becomes a baker ? In other societies, it is the fact that your needs may very well not be filled by what you do which can incline you to change your life. Under the Qun, a soldier will have all his needs answered by the whole society around him. And since they are culturally inclined to the needs of the whole over the needs of one, they have even less drive to change, even when they go trough difficult times. 

 

Loghain is a wrong example of meritocracy. To rise through the rank he needed an extremely rare occurrence of events which can't be replicated, and he did nothing (or even the contrary possibly) to allow others to rise as he did. Under the Qun, if you demonstrate the required qualities, you will rise, because the society is geared that way. It may also be noted that those qualities (mainly the ability to shoulder the consequences of your actions, as it was stated -either by Bull or Sten, I'm not sure here right now) are precisely the proof that the Qunari aren't mindless drones, and can even disobey orders under some circumstances (since the simple fact that the ability to lead whatever the consequences for you imply that one could go against orders to secure an objective and should be ready to face scrutiny and defend his/her choices).

[The Ascendant]

Yes, let us all endorse the disgusting and highly corruptive societies and culture of Thedas against the only one which has managed to actually create a vastly superior society, both morally and in practice. What could go wrong in the world after that, right ?

At least one can negotiate and reconciliation is possible. Unlike the Qunari.

[Almostfaceman]

You have a fallacy here. Why a Qunari who would have become a soldier because of what he was inclined to during his youth, would suddenly want to becomes a baker ? In other societies, it is the fact that your needs may very well not be filled by what you do which can incline you to change your life. Under the Qun, a soldier will have all his needs answered by the whole society around him. And since they are culturally inclined to the needs of the whole over the needs of one, they have even less drive to change, even when they go trough difficult times. 

 

Loghain is a wrong example of meritocracy. To rise through the rank he needed an extremely rare occurrence of events which can't be replicated, and he did nothing (or even the contrary possibly) to allow others to rise as he did. Under the Qun, if you demonstrate the required qualities, you will rise, because the society is geared that way. It may also be noted that those qualities (mainly the ability to shoulder the consequences of your actions, as it was stated -either by Bull or Sten, I'm not sure here right now) are precisely the proof that the Qunari aren't mindless drones, and can even disobey orders under some circumstances (since the simple fact that the ability to lead whatever the consequences for you imply that one could go against orders to secure an objective and should be ready to face scrutiny and defend his/her choices).

 

Please take your Orwellian argument and make another thread with it. This is not the topic here. If this argument is continued, the mods will assign this thread the role of "locked". 

[Illegitimus]

That's pure bullshit. We have had plenty of demonstrations of free will among the Qunari. 

 

I started to make a list, but people on it kept being declared Tal Vashoth, executed, sent for re-programming or denounced post-mortem.  

[BansheeOwnage]

Please take your Orwellian argument and make another thread with it. This is not the topic here. If this argument is continued, the mods will assign this thread the role of "locked". 

I started to make a list, but people on it kept being declared Tal Vashoth, executed, sent for re-programming or denounced post-mortem.  

I laughed.

 

But yeah, this isn't the topic to discuss the merits of the Qun, and it'll get this thread locked. Let's not bother here.

[SweetTeaholic]

You guys act as this thread getting locked is a bad thing.

[BansheeOwnage]

You guys act as this thread getting locked is a bad thing.

It is, we haven't gotten to page 50

 

But really, why would getting locked be a good thing? It's civil. So why bother?

[In Exile]

It is, we haven't gotten to page 50

 

But really, why would getting locked be a good thing? It's civil. So why bother?

Because this is what this thread has become:

 

[BansheeOwnage]

Because this is what this thread has become:

 

But it's entertaining, and harming no one.

[SweetTeaholic]

It is, we haven't gotten to page 50

 

But really, why would getting locked be a good thing? It's civil. So why bother?

 

True, but it's been going around in circles and really the denial isn't funny anymore; it's just sad.

[Tatar Foras]

It appears that this thread has gone slightly offtopic, time to post something relevant.

 

Spoiler

[ModernAcademic]

Maybe, but we don't read there minds, do we? (Not to sound too not critical or anything...) But we can hope, right?

 

I would't say this particular thread is a shining example of writer appreciation. Plus, we know exactly why this thread is so long...

 

True enough. 

[ModernAcademic]

We must scour them from existence, lest they do the same to us.

 

Whatever happened to dialog and negotiation?

[ModernAcademic]

Is anyone else thinking of 12 Angry Men?  Or is it just me?

 

Logical fallacy.  The Viddisala CANNOT have done what she did without authorization.  Resources were too great for a small operation.  Second, the Triumvirate HAD to have known what she was doing.  The operation was simply too big.  Third, Patrick Weekes statement (which had been quoted EXTENSIVELY) stated that they WEREN'T going to do an offshoot.  In ORDER for the Viddisala to have gone rogue, she would have had to defy her bosses, making her...tada...Tal-Vashoth.  That'd make her outside the Qun.  It DOESN'T make sense.  Also, WHY would Weekes say that they were going to OWN this, if they were going to turn around and have an offshoot?  Why would they say they would 'own this' and then...NOT own it?  Numbers, resources, and a friggin' Dragon were involved.  Also, the Viddisala was INSANELY devout and proud of what she was doing...why would she NOT report what she was doing to her bosses?  If she reported it, and they DID not reproach her for her actions, then they ALLOWED it.  Which meant it was authorized.  If she DIDN'T tell them, because they would disapprove, she was going AGAINST the Qun, and would be Tal-Vashoth.  If you are looking for them to OFFICIALLY state it, thats fine, but if SHE KNEW she was breaking her oaths, she KNEW in her heart that she was going contrary to the Qun, and in her HEART, she was Tal-Vashoth.  This was a HIGH RANKING priestess.  She was DEVOUT.  She wouldn't just break her oaths.  Every statement she made was made with certainty.  She believed, and I can infer based upon her actions and words, that she was acting with full authorization AND was following the tenants of the Qun.

 

Analyzing is fun (I mean, it IS, we all do it) but at this point, it seems just like denial.  The Viddisala had sanction to proceed with the Dragons Breath.  Saying that she didn't is tantamount to saying that Alistair and the Warden were lacking in approval in their actions because they lacked direct endorsement of the Wardens in the Anderfels.  Going by the LETTER and not the SPIRIT of what happened in Trespasser...even then, its a hard sell.  Court of public opinion seems to think she was authorized.  Evidence supports that conclusion.  We aren't looking for a way out of a mess...we see a storm coming, and we are accepting of it.  

 

Its not personal, its just what it is.  But I know, THANKS FOR POSTING, right? 

 

Well, the Arishok invaded Kirkwall without authorisation. He DID have authorisation to recover the Tome of Koslun. But not to invade the city.

Yes, Qunari high-ranking officers will sometimes take drastic action, going against the Qun and/or the Triumvirate.

 

Which is why the Vidassala could have come to the South NOT to invade, but to investigate the Breach and determine how much of a threat it was.

IF she was authorised to start a full-scale invasion much later...well, that's a different matter entirely.

 

 

Those are TWO different kinds of authorisation there. She could've been authorised to carry out some specific mission on the South, but not been authorised firsthand to lead an official invasion. 

 

 

 

And her quote about invading the South through a gentle path, the one someone posted before? How do we know she was speaking for the Triumvirate there and not for herself? At that point in the game, she was already doing things of her own volition, IF she wasn't authorised. Plus,she was emotional, eager to catch up on Solas after seeing operation Dragon Breath be destroyed by the Inquisition. So there's no way to ascertain whether that consists of a revelation about the Triumvirate's intention or not. it could be her venting out her frustration after suffering a major defeat.

 

It's like judging the Triumvirate's intention for Kirkwall from what the Arishok's actions were. Further evidence is necessary. So far, there's only ambiguous and contradictory info on which to hypothesize.

[ModernAcademic]

Or a brilliant soldier (on paper) who wants to bake? That's impossible under the Qun.

 

Sorry, but your logic is mistaken. As Bull tells you, the Qunari evaluate you first for your natural aptitudes. Only after they've discovered what you're good at do they direct you to possible careers. And if you're dissatisfied, you can always seek help again from the Tamassrans.

 

If a brilliant soldier is born under the Qun, he will never be forced to be a baker. But living in slaving Tevinter or as a commoner in the South, he might never discover his true calling and be shoved into a bakery to work so as to support his family.

 

Ironically, people's greatest complaints back in the 70s and 80s was that no one was doing what they were truly born to do. Thus a series of esotheric methods quickly became popular, such as Astrology, Numerology and Palm Reading which promised to help you discover your true vocation.

 

Now we have a videogame where there's a society capable of directing people to careers that they are practically born to follow and people actually think they are close-minded tyrants. Something's not right here...

[Almostfaceman]

Sorry, but your logic is mistaken. As Bull tells you, the Qunari evaluate you first for your natural aptitudes. Only after they've discovered what you're good at do they direct you to possible careers. And if you're dissatisfied, you can always seek help again from the Tamassrans.

 

If a brilliant soldier is born under the Qun, he will never be forced to be a baker. But living in slaving Tevinter or as a commoner in the South, he might never discover his true calling and be shoved into a bakery to work so as to support his family.

 

Ironically, people's greatest complaints back in the 70s and 80s was that no one was doing what they were truly born to do. Thus a series of esotheric methods quickly became popular, such as Astrology, Numerology and Palm Reading which promised to help you discover your true vocation.

 

Now we have a videogame where there's a society capable of directing people to careers that they are practically born to follow and people actually think they are close-minded tyrants. Something's not right here...

 

No, the system decides who will be good at what. Not the individual. 

 

So what happens when the system is wrong? Too bad. So sad. 

 

And no, you can't go to the Tamassrans to get a new job. IF the Tamassrans notice something on their own, they make up their own minds who goes where. 

 

The Arishok specifically says in Dragon Age 2 that the freedom an individual has in their role is to accept that role or not accept the role. If you don't accept the role, you die. 

 

When Iron Bull starts to get burned out in his job, he goes for reeducation. They didn't give him a new job. They messed with his head until they thought he would be useful in his role again. I'm sure if they thought he was a lost cause, he'd be destroyed. 

 

So, all you're trying to sell us is that the Qunari are really good at assigning people their roles. Which you have no evidence of, because who's going to complain? If you complain, you get reeducated, or killed. 

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

 

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Tamassran

[The Ascendant]

Whatever happened to dialog and negotiation?

Sten himself declares that Qunari do not negotiate. It's them or us. I choose us.

[Kurogane335]

No, the system decides who will be good at what. Not the individual. 

 

Wrong. Iron Bull states that one undergo an epiphany of a sort when he/her discover his/her true calling under the Qun. It is made blatantly clear that you don't have a force assigned by you at birth. The Tamassaran try to discover what the children are good at and inclined to during their youth. The kids aren't taught only one thing form the get go, they have years of personal exploration, to determine what there abilities are, and what the kids truly want to be, deep down. Hence the Aqun Athlok. Hence the "epiphany" when you discover your true place in the Qunari society.

 

Using Hissrad as an example of how the system is supposedly broken is definite proof that one understands nothing about the Qunari way. Because it is the perfect example of how the needs of one person are taken into account under it. Hissrad needed re-education not because he wanted to become something else, but because he was beginning to fear that what he was doing on Seheron amounted to nothing. It was PTSD. And what did the reeducators did ? Did they brainwhashed him to return to the front on Seheron ?

 

Absolutely not ! They actually helped him regain in composure and then said him that he could serve the Qun in another theatre of operation and they devised The Iron Bull persona. How utterly atrocious of the Qun to actually heal a soldier and offer him a mission which would avoid him suffering the same traumas he did previously ! How monstrous really.

 

I've also seen that peoples still don't have examples of Qunari with their own free will ? I'll give you a list :

-Sten whole story in DA:O from its background to its conclusion is full of very personal choices made out of free will

-The Arishok

-Ketojan

-Talis

-Hissrad

-Saarath

-Viddasala

-Gatt

-the Baker in Solas little fairy tale, and her supervisors, and the Ben-Hassrath and the workers and all the people tied to her who purposely let her do her pinch of sugar into her every bread

[Almostfaceman]

Wrong. Iron Bull states that one undergo an epiphany of a sort when he/her discover his/her true calling under the Qun. It is made blatantly clear that you don't have a force assigned by you at birth. The Tamassaran try to discover what the children are good at and inclined to during their youth. The kids aren't taught only one thing form the get go, they have years of personal exploration, to determine what there abilities are, and what the kids truly want to be, deep down. Hence the Aqun Athlok. Hence the "epiphany" when you discover your true place in the Qunari society.

 

Using Hissrad as an example of how the system is supposedly broken is definite proof that one understands nothing about the Qunari way. Because it is the perfect example of how the needs of one person are taken into account under it. Hissrad needed re-education not because he wanted to become something else, but because he was beginning to fear that what he was doing on Seheron amounted to nothing. It was PTSD. And what did the reeducators did ? Did they brainwhashed him to return to the front on Seheron ?

 

Absolutely not ! They actually helped him regain in composure and then said him that he could serve the Qun in another theatre of operation and they devised The Iron Bull persona. How utterly atrocious of the Qun to actually heal a soldier and offer him a mission which would avoid him suffering the same traumas he did previously ! How monstrous really.

 

I've also seen that peoples still don't have examples of Qunari with their own free will ? I'll give you a list :

-Sten whole story in DA:O from its background to its conclusion is full of very personal choices made out of free will

-The Arishok

-Ketojan

-Talis

-Hissrad

-Saarath

-Viddasala

-Gatt

-the Baker in Solas little fairy tale, and her supervisors, and the Ben-Hassrath and the workers and all the people tied to her who purposely let her do her pinch of sugar into her every bread

 

Wrong.

 

Also, you may want to actually read the stuff on the links I provide. So you stop making mistakes like this. Here's how it works:

 

Qunari usually do not associate mating with love. They do have the capacity to love like all species, even having friends and forming emotional bonds with one another. However, they simply do not have sexual intercourse with each other to express it. If they do, then they are sent to be re-educated by the Ben-Hassrath. If a child is produced, the same thing happens as with all other Qunari children: it is sent to be raised by the Tamassrans, evaluated, and assigned a job. Qunari do not waste resources unnecessarily, people included.[6]

 

Qunari have been bred for specific roles for a very long time. Parentage is no longer the issue, more like pedigree. However, breeding does not determine a Qunari's assigned task. If a Qunari was bred to be a soldier but turns out to be more intellectual, the Tamassrans may move him into the priesthood, researching weapons technology, or the Ben-Hassrath, policing the populace, depending on what roles need to be filled by someone with their specific traits.[6]

 

As it's clear to see, the Tamassrans have the responsibility to assign roles. The individual has no say, only the word of the Tamassran matters. 

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

[Almostfaceman]

 

-the Baker in Solas little fairy tale, and her supervisors, and the Ben-Hassrath and the workers and all the people tied to her who purposely let her do her pinch of sugar into her every bread

 

Solas sees this in the Fade. The baker is comitting an act of private rebellion. Nobody else knows she's doing this. If she were to be caught, she'd get in serious trouble. 

 

This is why Solas complains to Iron Bull in banter that the Qunari try to control the very thoughts of its citizens. 

[Kurogane335]

You understands that( what you quote prove my point, right ?

 

And concernign Solas example, everything we know about the Qunari prove that he (and you thus) is dead wrong here. Because there is no way that her actions aren't known in a society were they haven( hadn't possibly) cookies because all the ingredients to bake are perfectly dosed before the cooking.

[Almostfaceman]

Wrong. Iron Bull states that one undergo an epiphany of a sort when he/her discover his/her true calling under the Qun. It is made blatantly clear that you don't have a force assigned by you at birth. The Tamassaran try to discover what the children are good at and inclined to during their youth. The kids aren't taught only one thing form the get go, they have years of personal exploration, to determine what there abilities are, and what the kids truly want to be, deep down. Hence the Aqun Athlok. Hence the "epiphany" when you discover your true place in the Qunari society.

 

 

Nobody "discovers their place" in Qunari society. Epiphanies are your head canon. The Tamassran evaluate the children and put them where they decide to put them. The individual has no say in where they're placed. 

[Almostfaceman]

You understands that( what you quote prove my point, right ?

 

Use your words. 

[Almostfaceman]

I've also seen that peoples still don't have examples of Qunari with their own free will ? I'll give you a list :

-Sten whole story in DA:O from its background to its conclusion is full of very personal choices made out of free will

-The Arishok

-Ketojan

-Talis

-Hissrad

-Saarath

-Viddasala

-Gatt

-the Baker in Solas little fairy tale, and her supervisors, and the Ben-Hassrath and the workers and all the people tied to her who purposely let her do her pinch of sugar into her every bread

 

All of these individuals are subject to the will of the Qun. Anything they do "of their free will" is subject to evaluation of the Triumvirate and they can be punished. Such is the case with both the Arishok and Talis. They don't have the freedom to do whatever they think the Qun allows them to do, it's all subject to the will of the Triumvirate.