1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Kurogane335]

However, breeding does not determine a Qunari's assigned task. If a Qunari was bred to be a soldier but turns out to be more intellectual, the Tamassrans may move him into the priesthood, researching weapons technology, or the Ben-Hassrath, policing the populace, depending on what roles need to be filled by someone with their specific traits.

 

Here it is made clear that the "career" of a Qunari is greatly chosen by his/her own inclination. The very terms "turns out" convoy the idea of something external to the Tamassaran. It is quite probable that this system makes mistakes (possibly because of a Tamassaran who has a far too narrow view of the roles needed. It is quite probable that it is because those Tamassaran thinks at a local level only. After all, if you live in an outpost of Seheron endangered, philosophers are probably less in need that soldiers or workers).

[Kurogane335]

All of these individuals are subject to the will of the Qun. Anything they do "of their free will" is subject to evaluation of the Triumvirate and they can be punished. Such is the case with both the Arishok and Talis. They don't have the freedom to do whatever they think the Qun allows them to do, it's all subject to the will of the Triumvirate. 

So you are telling me that there is actually, gasp, laws and customs under the Qun and that if you break them, you may risk punishment ? Kind of like everywhere else in Thedas ?

[Almostfaceman]

However, breeding does not determine a Qunari's assigned task. If a Qunari was bred to be a soldier but turns out to be more intellectual, the Tamassrans may move him into the priesthood, researching weapons technology, or the Ben-Hassrath, policing the populace, depending on what roles need to be filled by someone with their specific traits.

 

Here it is made clear that the "career" of a Qunari is greatly chosen by his/her own inclination. The very terms "turns out" convoy the idea of something external to the Tamassaran. It is quite probable that this system makes mistakes (possibly because of a Tamassaran who has a far too narrow view of the roles needed. It is quite probable that it is because those Tamassaran thinks at a local level only. After all, if you live in an outpost of Seheron endangered, philosophers are probably less in need that soldiers or workers).

 

No, the Tamassran observe kids then decide where the kids go. There's no way to evaluate how well the Tamassran do their jobs, because nobody is allowed to speak out against them. If you speak out against the system, you're reeducated or killed. It's a system built with no outside checks and balances. Who are you going to ask if the system is working or not? 

 

So, your evaluation of the system is your blind belief that the Tamassran are doing a good job. 

[Almostfaceman]

So you are telling me that there is actually, gasp, laws and customs under the Qun and that if you break them, you may risk punishment ? Kind of like everywhere else in Thedas ?

 

Oh here we go again with the "comparison to other governments in Thedas." 

 

I'm not having that discussion. The Qunari society is screwed up enough to condemn all on its own. 

[Kurogane335]

Oh here we go again with the "comparison to other governments in Thedas." 

 

I'm not having that discussion. The Qunari society is screwed up enough to condemn all on its own. 

So, basically "Lets not discuss the most important point of discussion because I know that I'm wrong here ?". Because that's what I read. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing in the Qunari society able to condemn all of its own. There is a massive amount of it in every other society in Thedas, especially the Chantry, the aristocracies and plutocracies and their highly corruptive mindset and massive racism.

[Almostfaceman]

So, basically "Lets not discuss the most important point of discussion because I know that I'm wrong here ?". Because that's what I read. There is nothing, I repeat, nothing in the Qunari society able to condemn all of its own. There is a massive amount of it in every other society in Thedas, especially the Chantry, the aristocracies and plutocracies and their highly corruptive mindset and massive racism.

 

Nothing, huh?

 

Duty is paramount in Qunari culture, and their society is seen as a living entity, whose wellbeing is the responsibility of all. Each person is like a drop of blood in the veins of the being, and they must not do what is best for them, but what is best for the creature.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

 

Tamassrans, who are accountable to no individual they have complete power over, decide your fate if you live under the Triumvirate. Nobody should have that kind of power over a person's life. 

 

No other crappy system of government has to exist for this to be a crappy system of government. 

 

And you don't decide for me what's the most important part of the discussion. I'm not here to impress you. 

[In Exile]

Sorry, but your logic is mistaken. As Bull tells you, the Qunari evaluate you first for your natural aptitudes. Only after they've discovered what you're good at do they direct you to possible careers. And if you're dissatisfied, you can always seek help again from the Tamassrans.

If a brilliant soldier is born under the Qun, he will never be forced to be a baker. But living in slaving Tevinter or as a commoner in the South, he might never discover his true calling and be shoved into a bakery to work so as to support his family.

Ironically, people's greatest complaints back in the 70s and 80s was that no one was doing what they were truly born to do. Thus a series of esotheric methods quickly became popular, such as Astrology, Numerology and Palm Reading which promised to help you discover your true vocation.

Now we have a videogame where there's a society capable of directing people to careers that they are practically born to follow and people actually think they are close-minded tyrants. Something's not right here...

Two problems. The idea the system can identify talent infallibly is absurd. But let's say we grant that point, and start from the premise that the Qun will always identify what people are best at in terms of their talent.

People don't always want to do what they're best at their entire lives. People change careers. They burn out. They want different things. All of this is impossible under Qun.

Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you want to do it.

[robertthebard]

Well, the Arishok invaded Kirkwall without authorisation. He DID have authorisation to recover the Tome of Koslun. But not to invade the city.
Yes, Qunari high-ranking officers will sometimes take drastic action, going against the Qun and/or the Triumvirate.
 
Which is why the Vidassala could have come to the South NOT to invade, but to investigate the Breach and determine how much of a threat it was.
IF she was authorised to start a full-scale invasion much later...well, that's a different matter entirely.

Except that they already have forces in play investigating the Breach? If Trespasser only happens if you turn IB Tal Vashoth, you might have a point here, but that's not the case. The events transpire whether you do or not. This means that there are other objectives in play. We can ignore this, to make your arguments valid, or we can accept them for what they are, documented.
 

Those are TWO different kinds of authorisation there. She could've been authorised to carry out some specific mission on the South, but not been authorised firsthand to lead an official invasion. 
 
 
 
And her quote about invading the South through a gentle path, the one someone posted before? How do we know she was speaking for the Triumvirate there and not for herself? At that point in the game, she was already doing things of her own volition, IF she wasn't authorised. Plus,she was emotional, eager to catch up on Solas after seeing operation Dragon Breath be destroyed by the Inquisition. So there's no way to ascertain whether that consists of a revelation about the Triumvirate's intention or not. it could be her venting out her frustration after suffering a major defeat.
 
It's like judging the Triumvirate's intention for Kirkwall from what the Arishok's actions were. Further evidence is necessary. So far, there's only ambiguous and contradictory info on which to hypothesize.

We have all the evidence we need, in the very first post of this thread. Your asserting that they had her send all those explosives all over southern Thedas in order to investigate the Breach? Are they really that incompetent, or is there a more logical explanation: You don't want to believe that they were actually planning to invade, until their operation got discovered. If not for Solas, their operation would have been a huge success, effectively cutting the head off the snake that is Southern Thedas, along with every other government that they had planted the explosives for. It wasn't just the Winter Palace that was in danger here.

[The Baconer]

When is the compulsory breeding session? I thought I saw that on the schedule.

[Almostfaceman]

When is the compulsory breeding session? I thought I saw that on the schedule.

 

It's after the "You Will Do This For the Rest of Your Life" event for the 12 year olds at noon. It doesn't take long, there's no discussion. They also do lunch. So... 12:35? Sort of a nooner, I guess. 

[BansheeOwnage]

 

Which is why the Vidassala could have come to the South NOT to invade, but to investigate the Breach and determine how much of a threat it was.

IF she was authorised to start a full-scale invasion much later...well, that's a different matter entirely.

Wrong. She was sent to cut off the various heads of the south and pave the way for an invasion, not lead an invasion herself. If the Qunari didn't know what she was doing, then her plan is useless because the Qunari wouldn't have been prepared to invade at the opportune moment. If they did know, and prepared, then she was authorized, obviously.

 

 

If a brilliant soldier is born under the Qun, he will never be forced to be a baker. But living in slaving Tevinter or as a commoner in the South, he might never discover his true calling and be shoved into a bakery to work so as to support his family.

You got what In Exile said backwards. No one is saying the brilliant soldier will be forced to be a baker. We're saying that if the brilliant soldier wanted to become a baker, he wouldn't be allowed.

 

Wrong. Iron Bull states that one undergo an epiphany of a sort when he/her discover his/her true calling under the Qun. It is made blatantly clear that you don't have a force assigned by you at birth. The Tamassaran try to discover what the children are good at and inclined to during their youth. The kids aren't taught only one thing form the get go, they have years of personal exploration, to determine what there abilities are, and what the kids truly want to be, deep down. Hence the Aqun Athlok. Hence the "epiphany" when you discover your true place in the Qunari society.

You're half right that they aren't given a role at birth. Yes, they will be bred for one purpose, but if they show greater aptitude for something else they will be assigned that role instead.

 

Where you're completely wrong is with the notion that whatever "the kids truly want to be, deep down" will be the same as what they are assigned. Hence the situation about the soldier who wants to bake.

 

It's really not that complicated. You get assigned what the tamassrans think you'll be good at, not what you want to do.

[ModernAcademic]

No, the system decides who will be good at what. Not the individual. 

 

So what happens when the system is wrong? Too bad. So sad. 

 

And no, you can't go to the Tamassrans to get a new job. IF the Tamassrans notice something on their own, they make up their own minds who goes where. 

 

The Arishok specifically says in Dragon Age 2 that the freedom an individual has in their role is to accept that role or not accept the role. If you don't accept the role, you die. 

 

When Iron Bull starts to get burned out in his job, he goes for reeducation. They didn't give him a new job. They messed with his head until they thought he would be useful in his role again. I'm sure if they thought he was a lost cause, he'd be destroyed. 

 

So, all you're trying to sell us is that the Qunari are really good at assigning people their roles. Which you have no evidence of, because who's going to complain? If you complain, you get reeducated, or killed. 

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

 

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Tamassran

 

No, the Tamassrans don't decide anything arbitrarily. 

As Bull tells you, they discover your true aptitudes FIRST, then assign you to careers where you're bound to be more succesful.

 

People are overlooking an important aspect of Qunari society, either by stubborness or ill-intention. No wonder they are mistakenly labelling them close-minded dictators and tyrants.

[ModernAcademic]

Almost 50 pages, people.

 

Keep up the good work!

 

[Almostfaceman]

No, the Tamassrans don't decide anything arbitrarily. 

As Bull tells you, they discover your true aptitudes FIRST, then assign you to careers where you're bound to be more succesful.

 

People are overlooking an important aspect of Qunari society, either by stubborness or ill-intention. No wonder they are mistakenly labelling them close-minded dictators and tyrants.

 

And how do you know they're not arbitrary? Because the Qunari tell you so. There's no checks and balances. No free press to evaluate how well the Tamassran are performing. Nobody under the Tamassran's power can complain. So how many Tamassran get pissed at a kid and punish them by sticking them in a crappy job? We don't know. How many are stupid and can't evaluate worth a crap? We don't know. What kind of process do they use to assign kids to their roles? We don't know. Who the heck thinks it's a good idea for someone to have this much power over a persons life? Not me. 

[AshenEndymion]

And how do you know they're not arbitrary? Because the Qunari tell you so. There's no checks and balances. No free press to evaluate how well the Tamassran are performing. Nobody under the Tamassaran's power can complain. So how many Tamassaran get pissed at a kid and punish them by sticking them in a crappy job? We don't know. How many are stupid and can't evaluate worth a crap? We don't know. What kind of process do they use to assign kids to their roles? We don't know. Who the heck thinks it's a good idea for someone to have this much power over a persons life? Not me. 

 

I would think the Ben-Hassrath re-educators are a part of the checks and balances of the Tamassaran... Not to mention that a system that monitors nearly everything down to when you procreate would presumably monitor how many Qunari trained by a Tamassaran are reeducated and/or otherwise fail in their duties to the Qun.

 

And it's not like Qunari are required to do the role the Tamassarans place them in if they don't like it.  After all, an unsatisfied Qunari need only turn themselves in to the Ben-Hassrath re-educators, and they'll soon find themselves in a role they like, or just not caring about what role they have..

[Almostfaceman]

And it's not like Qunari are required to do the role the Tamassarans place them in if they don't like it.  After all, an unsatisfied Qunari need only turn themselves in to the Ben-Hassrath re-educators, and they'll soon find themselves in a role they like, or just not caring about what role they have..

 

That would be incorrect. They are required to fulfill the role given to them by the Tamassarans. 

 

Duty is paramount in Qunari culture, and their society is seen as a living entity, whose wellbeing is the responsibility of all. Each person is like a drop of blood in the veins of the being, and they must not do what is best for them, but what is best for the creature.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

[Almostfaceman]

I would think the Ben-Hassrath re-educators are a part of the checks and balances of the Tamassaran... Not to mention that a system that monitors nearly everything down to when you procreate would presumably monitor how many Qunari trained by a Tamassaran are reeducated and/or otherwise fail in their duties to the Qun.

 

And it's not like Qunari are required to do the role the Tamassarans place them in if they don't like it.  After all, an unsatisfied Qunari need only turn themselves in to the Ben-Hassrath re-educators, and they'll soon find themselves in a role they like, or just not caring about what role they have..

 

The Ben-Hassrath are not job checkers. They evaluate if someone is fulfilling their assigned role in the Qun. If the person is not, that person is reeducated to continue fulfilling that role, or be eliminated. Iron Bull, for instance, isn't given a new career choice. He starts off an agent for the Ben-Hassrath, is reeducated when he gets burned out, then continues his job in the Ben-Hassrath. 

 

And again there's no checks and balances independent of the power structure. Nobody is available to make sure the Ben-Hassrath are doing a good job or the Tamassran are doing a good job - or that anyone fulfilling their roles in those structures are happy with those roles. 

 

The Arishok lays it out plain in Dragon Age 2. You are free to make a choice in your role. You either accept it, or you reject that role, then are killed. 

[Almostfaceman]

To follow up on my earlier point about the permanent assignment of roles by the Tamassran...

 

In Dragon Age 2 the Arishok says:

 

"Karasten are soldiers. The Qun made it so. They can never vary from that assigned path, never be other than they are meant to be. But, they are free to choose within that role. To accept and succeed, or deny and die. Glory is clear and defined. It is an undeniable certainty. What "full advantage" can you take without that authority?"

 

Hawke replies: "He's free to choose to obey? That isn't contradictory to you?"

 

The Arishok replies: "He chooses to be. As do we all, long before any of your meaningless freedoms are presented."

 

[AshenEndymion]

The Ben-Hassrath are not job checkers. They evaluate if someone is fulfilling their assigned role in the Qun. If the person is not, that person is reeducated to continue fulfilling that role, or be eliminated. Iron Bull, for instance, isn't given a new career choice. He starts off an agent for the Ben-Hassrath, is reeducated when he gets burned out, then continues his job in the Ben-Hassrath. 

 

And again there's no checks and balances independent of the power structure. Nobody is available to make sure the Ben-Hassrath are doing a good job or the Tamassran are doing a good job - or that anyone fulfilling their roles in those structures are happy with those roles. 

 

The Arishok lays it out plain in Dragon Age 2. You are free to make a choice in your role. You either accept it, or you reject that role, then are killed. 

 

A faction of the Ben-Hassrath are re-educators, a faction of the Ben-Hassrath are on the lookout for those Qunari who are failing in their role in the Qun, and bring them in to be reducated.  By those role descriptions, they are job checkers.

 

While you are correct that Iron Bull isn't given a choice for a new career, he is given a new career.  Iron Bull was a Ben-Hassrath who functioned as a police officer.  Got burnt out, and was given the new function of spy.  It's a new career, and presumably, a new job title(because it seems a bit weird to me to have what is essentially a police officer being given the job title of "liar"), but his role, as a member of the Ben-Hassrath, of the priesthood, was still the same.

 

And I'm not entirely certain what you mean by "no checks and balances independent of the power structure."  Just because you aren't told of their existence doesn't mean there are none... As I understand it, "a good job" to the Qunari means "succeeding in fulfilling the role within the Qun".  And that would mean the Arishok, Arigena, and Ariqun ensure those within their respective branches are doing "a good job."  If a Tamassran continually assigned "substandard" Qunari it's unlikely it would go unnoticed by the Ariqun(who is in charge of both the Tamassrans and Ben-Hassrath)...

 

To follow up on my earlier point about the permanent assignment of roles by the Tamassran...

 

In Dragon Age 2 the Arishok says:

 

"Karasten are soldiers. The Qun made it so. They can never vary from that assigned path, never be other than they are meant to be. But, they are free to choose within that role. To accept and succeed, or deny and die. Glory is clear and defined. It is an undeniable certainty. What "full advantage" can you take without that authority?"

 

Hawke replies: "He's free to choose to obey? That isn't contradictory to you?"

 

The Arishok replies: "He chooses to be. As do we all, long before any of your meaningless freedoms are presented."

 

This is a good clip, because I believe that it shows the fundamental idea that you aren't grasping:  The "assigned path", the role, that the Arishok is discussing is that of a Soldier, not of a Karasten... A Tamassaran doesn't assign a Qunari to the role of Karasten.  The Tamassaran assigns a Qunari to the role of soldier.  If a Qunari is assigned to be a solider, and they can choose within the role, accept and succeed, be it succeed as a Karasten, an Ashaad, an Arvaraad, a Sten, or even an Arishok.  But if a Qunari finds themselves burnt out as an Arvaraad, that doesn't mean they cannot become a Karasten(provided they have the skill-set)...  But a soldier cannot become a crafstman or a priest, because that is not their role.

[Darkstarr11]

Multitasking DOESN'T seem to be a Qunari thing then.

[Almostfaceman]

A faction of the Ben-Hassrath are re-educators, a faction of the Ben-Hassrath are on the lookout for those Qunari who are failing in their role in the Qun, and bring them in to be reducated.  By those role descriptions, they are job checkers.

 

While you are correct that Iron Bull isn't given a choice for a new career, he is given a new career.  

 

And I'm not entirely certain what you mean by "no checks and balances independent of the power structure."  Just because you aren't told of their existence doesn't mean there are none... 

 

No, Iron Bull was a spy in one area, got burned out, then became a spy in another area. His name "hissrad" means liar. That role didn't change. All the Ben-Hassrath did was make sure they could still use Iron Bull as a tool for spying. That's a summary. If you'd like more detail you can read it here. 

 

So, no, nobody gets a new job. They either do what the Qun tells them to do, or they end up dead. 

 

If you live in a modern democracy, you understand checks and balances. Or at least you should. One example is a free press. The Qun has none. The Triumvirate rules with an iron fist. 

 

I can give you a modern example. The USSR had a newspaper. It was called Pravda, I believe. It would constantly report good news and that the Soviet government was flawlessly humming along like a smooth, happy, society. All of it was a big lie, because if you stepped out of line you were stomped by the KGB.

 

All of the Qunari citizenry is Pravda. You talk to one, you get little information and what you do get is not critical of the Qun. The Triumvirate can't do a bad job running things. If you think they are, they reeducate you or they kill you. Same goes for any other system under the Triumvirate. 

 

So that's what I mean by there are no checks and balances. 

[Almostfaceman]

This is a good clip, because I believe that it shows the fundamental idea that you aren't grasping:  The "assigned path", the role, that the Arishok is discussing is that of a Soldier, not of a Karasten... A Tamassaran doesn't assign a Qunari to the role of Karasten.  The Tamassaran assigns a Qunari to the role of soldier.  If a Qunari is assigned to be a solider, and they can choose within the role, accept and succeed, be it succeed as a Karasten, an Ashaad, an Arvaraad, a Sten, or even an Arishok.  But if a Qunari finds themselves burnt out as an Arvaraad, that doesn't mean they cannot become a Karasten(provided they have the skill-set)...  But a soldier cannot become a crafstman or a priest, because that is not their role.

 

It is a good clip, but unless you can provide a source, all your statement amounts to is a bunch of head canon. The truth is this is a "made up" society and there is precious little information about how certain types of soldiers or their ranks are determined. But there is no evidence for a meritocracy. Right now, all the information I can find on the Qunari indicates the Tamassran decide who does what. Now, whether that means they decide a soldier starts off a Karasten and is marked for promotion later on... we don't know. But the ranks literally are job titles and its those titles the Tamassran use in bestowing a role upon an individual. 

 

Here's where I looked for information.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Antaam

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Tamassran

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

[Mistic]

It is a good clip, but unless you can provide a source, all your statement amounts to is a bunch of head canon. The truth is this is a "made up" society and there is precious little information about how certain types of soldiers or their ranks are determined. But there is no evidence for a meritocracy. Right now, all the information I can find on the Qunari indicates the Tamassran decide who does what. Now, whether that means they decide a soldier starts off a Karasten and is marked for promotion later on... we don't know. But the ranks literally are job titles and its those titles the Tamassran use in bestowing a role upon an individual. 

 

Here's where I looked for information.

 

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Antaam

http://dragonage.wik.../wiki/Tamassran

http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Qunari

 

Actually, World of Thedas 2 muddles things more. For example, Sten's entry mentions he was Karasaad during the 9:12 attack on Qarinus. Then he became Sten and now is rumoured to be Arishok.

 

Interestingly, WoT 2 adds that young Sten was known to complain to the Arishok himself against direct assaults, judging that strategy useless to invade Tevinter, and suggested diverting more resources to information gathering.

 

Also, this (about the war in Seheron):

 

"An ailment the Qunari call asala-taar, or "soul sickness", spread among the ranks of the survivors. Both older, experienced soldiers as well as new members of the antaam were equally susceptible, and for every soldier who fell in battle, two more had to be sent back to Par Vollen for treatment. Most of those were reassigned among the priesthood or the workers and never returned to combat. The tamassrans struggled to keep up with the losses and petitioned the Ariqun to more aggressively seek out a cure for the illness. In the meantime, the antaam promoted and lost officers at astonishing rates".

[robertthebard]

Here's the problem with this current line of discussion, from my own perspective:

A soldier is a soldier. The rank is irrelevant, because they're still a soldier. Contrary to references made earlier in the thread, just as an example here, I have been a soldier, a farmer, a construction worker and an automotive technician. I have also been a bard at Ren Fairs. All of these things because I was interested in doing so, and did so. If I were Qunari, I'd be reeducated, dead or Tal Vashoth by now. This path is not available to the Qunari. You are free to do what they tell you to do, and that's it, while I am free to choose to do what I want. In Qunari society, you are free to choose what you bake, but you will always be a baker. You may be free to choose what crops you grow, but you are still a farmer. If you want to be a musician, you're out of luck. If you want to be a baker, but you've been assigned to be a farmer, you're out of luck, short of the fact that you can bake your own stuff, maybe. For that, we don't have enough information, but the basic premise is the same, once you are assigned a role, you are free to choose to do that role, or face the consequences.

[Sifr]

Multitasking DOESN'T seem to be a Qunari thing then.

 

Yeah, the Qunari are far too overly-specialised as a people to multi-task.

 

They actually kind of remind me a little of the Man Of Steel interpretation of the Kryptonians, where they'd bred themselves into roles so absolutely that they simply cannot think outside their own little boxes. That's why the bureaucrats were still holding pointless trials when the planet was about to explode and why Zod cannot employ non-military solutions to preserving/restoring Krypton, something he even lampshades.

 

Same with the implication that the Protheans were the same in ME. Javik suggests that part of their downfall was because they had locked themselves into one frame of mind and couldn't easily adapt when the Reapers found ways to overcome and subvert it.

 

This is a major flaw because overly-rigid thinking prevents people from seeing other possibilities. Those who hold a certain fixed view will march to destruction once set on a course, because it's simply not their nature to adapt to changing circumstances or taking another path instead.

 

Qunari society definitely seems to be built on this kind of mindset.