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It's official, the Viddasala wasn't a rogue agent


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#1326
Giantdeathrobot

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The one point I'll give in favor of Grepher's position is the Vidasala feeding lyrium to Saarebas. I'll absolutely believe that that act was her going off the rails, unless we find in DA4 that the Qunari have had a drastic change of policy.

However, Dragon's Breath is too big an operation for me to believe it wasn't authorized. The plan would only work if the Qunari were already prepared to invade. That actually explains why Vidasala would intercept and crumple the note. If she knew she was pushing the line, she would want to know what the Triumvirate is thinking. She crumpled it because she felt she was being left out to dry.

So that's my stance, that Dragon's Breath (The plan to kill off all the leaders of the South) was a sanctioned operation but the Vidasala went off script with her methods.

 

That is definitely a possibility, I agree.

 

That said, it might be that, for the sake of the operation, she was authorized to use drastic methods. Desperate times warranting desperate measures and all that. The Qunari could always justify it with the No True Scotsman hand-waving they always use; magic is dangerous, but when we do it, it's not magic, it's a demand of the Qun, and that's OK. Ultimately, had she been successful in her mission, I'm sure the Triumvirate would have turned a blind eye to her methods even if they were a bit extreme.

 

Plus, since the operation required several opened Eluvian (activation of which is no small task, even for experienced Dalish mages), I'm fairly sure the Triumvirate were aware the mission would require tremendous amount of magical power. So either the Vidassala had the greenlight to use Lyrium, or she turned to it as a last-ditch measure since no other solution was possible.


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#1327
MrObnoxiousUK

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Keep going guys page 100 beckons!



#1328
In Exile

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The one point I'll give in favor of Grepher's position is the Vidasala feeding lyrium to Saarebas. I'll absolutely believe that that act was her going off the rails, unless we find in DA4 that the Qunari have had a drastic change of policy.

However, Dragon's Breath is too big an operation for me to believe it wasn't authorized. The plan would only work if the Qunari were already prepared to invade. That actually explains why Vidasala would intercept and crumple the note. If she knew she was pushing the line, she would want to know what the Triumvirate is thinking. She crumpled it because she felt she was being left out to dry.

So that's my stance, that Dragon's Breath (The plan to kill off all the leaders of the South) was a sanctioned operation but the Vidasala went off script with her methods.


I've made this point repeatedly: the fact that the Qunari authorized a decapitation strike and allowed an agent with a wide lattidue of discretion does not mean that the agent did not necessarily exceed her authority.

It is entirely possible for both the Qunari to have authorized the Dragon's Breath plot and to have disowned the Vidassala on learning of her red lyrium experiment.

What makes me question this is true, however, is the simple fact that the original plot had them creating their own templar. That's something we can easily imagine the Qunari doing as a properly authorized action. Is unleashing the equivalent of a nuke in the Saarebas so unreasonable?
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#1329
Heimdall

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I've made this point repeatedly: the fact that the Qunari authorized a decapitation strike and allowed an agent with a wide lattidue of discretion does not mean that the agent did not necessarily exceed her authority.

It is entirely possible for both the Qunari to have authorized the Dragon's Breath plot and to have disowned the Vidassala on learning of her red lyrium experiment.

What makes me question this is true, however, is the simple fact that the original plot had them creating their own templar. That's something we can easily imagine the Qunari doing as a properly authorized action. Is unleashing the equivalent of a nuke in the Saarebas so unreasonable?

It just seems to run counter to the whole Qunari attitude towards magic. I mean, the altered their stance to allow mages to participate in the military after seeing the effectiveness of Thedas' mages, but even then only in a limited capacity. This is much more drastic. Given the Vidasala's apparent need to justify herself to her underlings, even invoking Solas' creation of the Veil, it seems more like something she came up with herself.
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#1330
In Exile

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It just seems to run counter to the whole Qunari attitude towards magic. I mean, the altered their stance to allow mages to participate in the military after seeing the effectiveness of Thedas' mages, but even then only in a limited capacity. This is much more drastic. Given the Vidasala's apparent need to justify herself to her underlings, even invoking Solas' creation of the Veil, it seems more like something she came up with herself.



I agree with you. I think it's a perplexity. I don't think Bioware thought it through (like the wonky Anders timeline). But they made it canonical. So we have to deal with it, if the Vidassala was truly authorized.

There is another answer: Bioware is building up to a theme that the Qunari leadership is corrupt. DA4 will allow us to choose between either Qunari reformers or other hardliners (like Sten).

#1331
Reznore57

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What makes me question this is true, however, is the simple fact that the original plot had them creating their own templar. That's something we can easily imagine the Qunari doing as a properly authorized action. Is unleashing the equivalent of a nuke in the Saarebas so unreasonable?

 

I can't easily imagine Qunari templars.Not saying they wouldn't do it ...but templars are addicted and loose their minds after a while...this goes against everything the Qun demands.

Control of the self is one of the most important thing in the Qun , you're not in control if you're addicted or loosing your mind...

On top of it lyrium is magic , and the Qunari tends to dislike that.

So again not saying the Qunari wouldn't find some loophole if the need is great enough .

But we're talking here of a group of healthy Qunari who would be sacrificed and lost in the eye of the Qun.



#1332
Dai Grepher

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...and yet, he's leading his men on an operation that doesn't require his supervisor to be there holding his hand. We don't even meet his supervisor in his "loyalty" mission.


Sten's quote is in relation to the antaam. That is the topic of this particular point, the antaam's involvement.

I'll point out a very important detail here: I said "I have even postulated ..." in the very snippet you replied to. That qualifier means that I did exactly that, provided some head canon that I made up on my own when I initially found the letter. Here's the difference, when IB turned on me, my first thought was "Ah ha, more plausible deniability", instead of clinging blindly to "but my head canon says ...".


No, your first thought was to use it to affirm your theory. But thanks for admitting that you posted headcanon.

Excuse? That's what most villains do all the time. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, they always think their victory is assured and start gloating about what they (or their minions, or their bosses) will do afterwards.


But your argument is that the Triumvirate wanted plausible deniability. By implicating the Triumvirate, Viddasala would have been going against their wishes.

Without leaving DA:I, we see Envy spilling the beans so hard that it provides the same information about Corypheus' plans as a trip to the future does; Corypheus himself with the anchor (bonus points because the Inquisitor is in-universe trying to make him do it); Erimond and his plans for the Wardens; Duchess Florianne is so bad at it that a peaceful resolution has the Inquisitor using her words against her in public; even Solas at the end of Trespasser can't stop himself from giving a grand speech, although he's clever enough not to give too many details.


I'm not arguing that a villain can't be dumb and spill the beans. My argument is that Viddasala, assuming she was authorized, was ordered to carry this out in a way that it would not lead back to the Triumvirate if it failed. By pointing to the Triumvirate, she utterly fails in her order to keep them out of it.

No body found and the quest to recover the sword wasn't especially difficult (just keep asking until you find it, having Sten in the party even makes persuasion easier, so it's not as if he couldn't do it himself). There's also no option to have him killed once he's your companion.
 
Given that Sten becomes the Arishok in Bioware's canon and that WoT2, which contains data valid for all worldstates, mentions rumours of his promotion, I think it's safer to assume Bioware won't waste resources in making a different Arishok when they have left a door open for themselves to claim Sten was never dead to begin with. I mean, Leliana was much, much harder to justify and that didn't stop them.


Can't the sword be destroyed or sold to another merchant? It's also most logical that Sten would have died in the cage, since that was his plan. But yeah, BioWare will likely take the lazy route and just have him be Arishok no matter what.

The one point I'll give in favor of Grepher's position is the Vidasala feeding lyrium to Saarebas. I'll absolutely believe that that act was her going off the rails, unless we find in DA4 that the Qunari have had a drastic change of policy.


I would think any change in policy would see them test it out on Tevinter first. Seems like too dangerous a proposition to risk an invasion on.

However, Dragon's Breath is too big an operation for me to believe it wasn't authorized. The plan would only work if the Qunari were already prepared to invade.


Unless invasion wasn't the true plan. Perhaps Viddasala was only trying to provoke a war between the South and Par Vollen. In any case, there were no units waiting for the chance to invade.

Also, what makes you think Dragon's Breath was so large that it required authorization? Everything Viddasala did she could have done without the Triumvirate knowing about it.

That actually explains why Vidasala would intercept and crumple the note. If she knew she was pushing the line, she would want to know what the Triumvirate is thinking. She crumpled it because she felt she was being left out to dry.


But shouldn't she have known this was always a possibility? And shouldn't she have sent the reply on to Josephine to honor the Triumvirate's wishes that she receive it? Josephine made it clear, if they don't get a reply, then it means war.

So that's my stance, that Dragon's Breath (The plan to kill off all the leaders of the South) was a sanctioned operation but the Vidasala went off script with her methods.


Just curious, what makes you think its possible to kill off all southern leaders in a short amount of time? And why would that do anything when those leaders can easily be replaced by those directly under them or around them?

#1333
Dai Grepher

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That said, it might be that, for the sake of the operation, she was authorized to use drastic methods. Desperate times warranting desperate measures and all that.


If they are desperate and have to rely on saarebas, then they shouldn't be invading.

The Qunari could always justify it with the No True Scotsman hand-waving they always use; magic is dangerous, but when we do it, it's not magic, it's a demand of the Qun, and that's OK. Ultimately, had she been successful in her mission, I'm sure the Triumvirate would have turned a blind eye to her methods even if they were a bit extreme.


So your theory relies on the Qunari leadership acting out of character and overlooking the misuse of saarebas during a time when Viddasala should have been focusing on the assassinations.

Plus, since the operation required several opened Eluvian (activation of which is no small task, even for experienced Dalish mages), I'm fairly sure the Triumvirate were aware the mission would require tremendous amount of magical power. So either the Vidassala had the greenlight to use Lyrium, or she turned to it as a last-ditch measure since no other solution was possible.


I can't see the Triumvirate relying on magic elvhen mirrors for something as important as invasion.

But I just remembered there was one more saarebas right where we arrive at the Darvaarad. He was about 30ft ahead, using magic on a shattered mirror. So Viddasala had a total of five saarebas including Saarath.

I've made this point repeatedly: the fact that the Qunari authorized a decapitation strike and allowed an agent with a wide lattidue of discretion does not mean that the agent did not necessarily exceed her authority.


Invasion itself is beyond her authority because she is not of the antaam.

It is entirely possible for both the Qunari to have authorized the Dragon's Breath plot and to have disowned the Vidassala on learning of her red lyrium experiment.


She was disavowed in the reply to Josephine, whose letter contained no information about the red lyrium, just Viddasala's attempted strikes against the South.

What makes me question this is true, however, is the simple fact that the original plot had them creating their own templar. That's something we can easily imagine the Qunari doing as a properly authorized action. Is unleashing the equivalent of a nuke in the Saarebas so unreasonable?


Yes, because saarebas are wild and unpredictable. A Qunari following the way of the templar at least still has mastery of the self. It isn't until later that they lose control, but the Qunari would likely cut the templar off from lyrium before addiction set in.

There is another answer: Bioware is building up to a theme that the Qunari leadership is corrupt. DA4 will allow us to choose between either Qunari reformers or other hardliners (like Sten).


I think "betrayal and corruption can hit any organization" was the whole point of Trespasser. Solas said this to the Inquisitor. So it isn't unreasonable to believe that this applied to the Qunari government as well.

#1334
Dai Grepher

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I can't easily imagine Qunari templars.Not saying they wouldn't do it ...but templars are addicted and loose their minds after a while...this goes against everything the Qun demands.


They could cut them off before addiction sets in. Like how Cullen can quit just in time.

Ironically, Trespasser does have templar Qunari in the gameplay. The assassins that attack you in the dark parts of the lyrium mine can use the templar's dispel ability. Although templar Qunari are not mentioned in the storyline at all.

#1335
Heimdall

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I would think any change in policy would see them test it out on Tevinter first. Seems like too dangerous a proposition to risk an invasion on.

I don't find it likely either, though it's possible that Saarath was the test case.

Unless invasion wasn't the true plan. Perhaps Viddasala was only trying to provoke a war between the South and Par Vollen. In any case, there were no units waiting for the chance to invade.

We don't know that. The proper invasion wouldn't be coming through the Eluvians, but advancing conventionally to employ their numbers and cannons to take advantage of the chaos. We don't know what the rest of the Antaam was prepared to do. There's no evidence to suggest that Vidasala was lying about the plan.

Also, what makes you think Dragon's Breath was so large that it required authorization? Everything Viddasala did she could have done without the Triumvirate knowing about it.

It required a large deployment of resources and I doubt Vidasala usually has command over portions of the Antaam. That they're assigned to her implies that this is being treated military operation at least on some level. It beggars my belief that she could hide this from the triumvirate.

But shouldn't she have known this was always a possibility? And shouldn't she have sent the reply on to Josephine to honor the Triumvirate's wishes that she receive it? Josephine made it clear, if they don't get a reply, then it means war.

Doesn't mean anything. That she knew it was a possibility doesn't mean she would be pleased by it. At that point she was off the rails and probably assumed her own success or didn't care about their approval anymore, so whether or not the reply was delivered mattered little.

Just curious, what makes you think its possible to kill off all southern leaders in a short amount of time? And why would that do anything when those leaders can easily be replaced by those directly under them or around them?

Leadership doesn't just mean the heads of state. The implication of Vidasala's plan as outlined is that virtually everyone in proximity to rule will be killed, leaving the ambitious lower levels of nobility. Think the situation of the Chantry after the Conclave explosion, except each ambitious cleric has an army. You'd see civil wars and succession crises throughout Thedas.
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#1336
AlanC9

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The Viddasala was carrying out official policy. You read the OP, right?

Edit: Or watched it. It's both video and someone was kind enough to make a transcript.

Yeah, I read it. Like I said above, I don't see that Weekes is necessarily saying what you folks say he's saying.

Though it's certainly possible that the Letters Codex entry was deliberately misleading us, or that it's a leftover bit of an earlier design stage (Bio's goofed like that in the past). Heimdall's interpretation strikes me as a (rather clever) reach.

#1337
robertthebard

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Sten's quote is in relation to the antaam. That is the topic of this particular point, the antaam's involvement.


No, your first thought was to use it to affirm your theory. But thanks for admitting that you posted headcanon.


Uh, no. You see, my theory is that she was authorized to do whatever was necessary to enact Dragon's Breath. When IB turned on me, it was proof that she was. IB was Qun loyal, or he wouldn't have turned, and, since he was Qun loyal, that means he was still getting reports, and if they'd truly felt like they had a rogue agent in charge of their operation, they'd have passed that tidbit on to IB, who would then have told her she was out of line, instead of turning on us. Before you spout more "using your own headcanon" nonsense:

It is confirmed by Solas that there were so many Qunari spies in the Inquisition that his and their spies were tripping over each other. This means that there existed plenty of network for IB to get the information that the Viddasala was out of control, and needed to be dealt with.

#1338
AlanC9

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Uh, no. You see, my theory is that she was authorized to do whatever was necessary to enact Dragon's Breath. When IB turned on me, it was proof that she was. IB was Qun loyal, or he wouldn't have turned, and, since he was Qun loyal, that means he was still getting reports, and if they'd truly felt like they had a rogue agent in charge of their operation, they'd have passed that tidbit on to IB, who would then have told her she was out of line


Wait a second.... wouldn't IB be in the Viddasala's chain of command anyway? Wouldn't his reports come from her?

#1339
robertthebard

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Wait a second.... wouldn't IB be in the Viddasala's chain of command anyway?


I'm thinking so. If she were off the reservation, however, a Qun loyal IB would know it, and wouldn't turn on you, since she's not authorized to be running an operation, or to be running it the way she is. That's the problem I have with the whole "she went too far" line. People are reporting to their superiors, and if she's going to far, those superiors are going to know it, and they're going to take it up the chain, which means that, a Qun loyal IB is going to be in on the details. It makes for a tasty "What if" scenario, and if IB had remained loyal, it would have had some merit, but he remains loyal to the Qun, which is why he turns on you.

#1340
pdusen

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I get it.  Anyone is welcome to state their opinion.  With freedom to state one's opinion comes the freedom to be intolerant of opinions that differ from the "official" opinion. That seems Qun-like to me. 

 

 

What an absurd thing to say. Opinions aren't automatically valid just because they exist. I could say that in my opinion the moon is a giant sponge in the sky, but that doesn't make me worth listening to.


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#1341
Reznore57

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Wait a second.... wouldn't IB be in the Viddasala's chain of command anyway? Wouldn't his reports come from her?

 

I doubt it.

The Ben Hassrath are seperated in three different branches.

"The Qunari divide all Ben-Hassrath activities into three distinct categories: "Dangerous Purpose," "Dangerous Action," and "Dangerous Questions."

Three priests form a mini-triumvirate that manages all their operations, with each priest presiding over actions in a single category. We have an ongoing mission to identify the leader of the "Dangerous Questions" branch, which seems to handle the vast majority of the Qunari intelligence gathering and sabotage missions.

"Dangerous Actions" appears to be the branch responsible for enforcement; their agents almost never leave Qunari-controlled territory except to hunt defectors.

The branch we have had the most contact with has been "Dangerous Purpose." This division, run by a priestess called the Viddasala, or "one who converts purpose," handles the conversion of foreigners, the reeducation of Qunari dissidents, and the collection and quarantine of magic. Things that, by Qunari definition, are threats to themselves and others by nature"

 

If this is true IB in Seheron would have probably been under the "Dangerious Actions" , he spend a lot of time over there hunting Tal Vashoth.

Then I'd say for his job in the South , he was moved to " Dangerous Questions" , intelligence gathering on the Inquisition.

 

But I doubt he was under the Vidassala.When he is Tal Vashoth , so he has no reason to lie to you , he seems to not really know what the Vidassala is doing.I think he says the Qunari should smash Eluvians.

But under "Dangerous Purpose" it makes sense to study/quarantine magical stuff and not just smash them.



#1342
Mistic

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I'm not arguing that a villain can't be dumb and spill the beans. My argument is that Viddasala, assuming she was authorized, was ordered to carry this out in a way that it would not lead back to the Triumvirate if it failed. By pointing to the Triumvirate, she utterly fails in her order to keep them out of it.

 

I don't deny that would be a job badly done. The problem is, Occam's razor and previous precedent (especially Florianne's, who was in a similar predicament) don't give us any reason to suspect she's brighter than the ones who came before her. Personal conspiracy or authorized secret ops, the notes and letters found do in fact suggest she can be suicidally stubborn in the face of failure.



#1343
Sifr

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And I would write that I have presented irrefutable facts and evidence, backed up by Weekes and Epler, and that your side has posted nothing but baseless speculation.

 

I think you're mistaking the side of the table groaning with the weight of all the evidence, because that doesn't seem to be the side you're sitting on. You've thus far presented nothing of the sort, whereas we've sourced our repeatedly.

 

Well I went over this already. I also remember posting something in reply to you asking if you went back to my post detailing all the relevant statements made in the conference video. Remember, you asked for the video because you wrote that it was the first you were reading about it, and then I posted it?

 

I watched that video, but I cannot fathom how you got any of those ideas from it, because Weekes said nothing of the sort.

 

But if you want a quick answer to this question, I will reference a simple example from the OP's quote of the interview. The interview has Weekes saying that they tried to talk themselves into making this a rogue group, right? Weekes goes on to say that the idea was that these weren't the real Qunari, and Bull doesn't believe in them. So from this Weekes was saying that his definition of "rogue group" means those of the horned race who are not part of the Qun culture at all. Vashoth, or perhaps Tal-Vashoth. Of the Kossith race, but not followers of the Qun.

 

And if you have paid any attention to the quote, you'd see they intended them to be legitimate Qunari from the start. They toyed with the idea of making them a rogue offshoot to save the Qunari card for later, but decided that would be cheap and abandoned that idea.

 

In other words, we're dealing with real friggin' Qunari who follow the Qun.

 

But those on your side have misinterpreted this to mean that because this isn't a group outside the Qun, that automatically means they were authorized in all of their actions. They claim that any action they take that is unauthorized makes them rogue by default.

What they get wrong, likely on purpose, is that real Qunari can act without authorization and still be real Qunari. I posted examples of this. Sten, Arishok, Tallis. The Viddasala can go around the Triumvirate and defy their wishes, and still be considered a member of real Qunari society. She only ceases to be a member of Qunari society if she is declared Tal-Vashoth, which can't happen in Trespasser because the Triumvirate was unaware of her actions and could not investigate her actions until after she was already dead.

So what Weekes was saying in the interview, and all he actually said, was that they were going to make this a group of kossith (the qunari race) outside the Qun, but since that felt toothless they changed this to involve real Qunari who believed in the Qun. That's it. He said nothing of whether those real Qunari were authorized to attack the South or not.

Your side is reading into Weekes' statements and putting their own meaning behind it.

 

Someone is reading something into the statement and putting their own spin on it, but I don't think it's us. If you want some baseless speculation, let's cross-examine that entire post you did about Weekes' statements at the conference... grab a cup of tea people, we'll be here for a while!


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#1344
In Exile

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Wait a second.... wouldn't IB be in the Viddasala's chain of command anyway? Wouldn't his reports come from her?


I think she's in charge of a different branch of the Ben-Hassrath. She's like a Navy Admiral to someone in the army.

#1345
Almostfaceman

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Yeah, I read it. Like I said above, I don't see that Weekes is necessarily saying what you folks say he's saying.

 

Okay walk us through that. 

 

What does Weekes mean by "That said, when we got to the Qunari, we kicked around different ways to do it. We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless."

 

Wouldn't it have been easier for him to:

 

A) Just not say anything and let us wonder about the evidence in the game

B ) Use the letters to say the Viddasala was a rogue agent so they wouldn't have to kill off Iron Bull

 

Or when he says "It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it. And in that case, the only reasonable outcome was that if you hadn't gotten Iron Bull out of the Qun, it made no sense for him to do anything but turn on you. It's one of those things where, you know, I don't know if we would have done things differently if we had known 'Oh we definitely want to have the Qunari in the Trespasser DLC, and what does that do for Iron Bull?'"

 

Wouldn't it have been easier for him to say:

 

A) We planted some letters in the Trespasser DLC that prove the Viddasala went rogue, so Iron Bull didn't check with his superiors and followed her orders because he didn't know she was a rogue agent. 

 

Are you buying arguments that Iron Bull didn't know who to report to or who to answer to? Because he never has that dilemma anywhere else in the game. He's always in close communication with his chain of command and he's passing along reports. There also seems to be other Qunari spies implanted throughout the Inquisition, monitoring Iron Bull. 

 

So, in relation to what Weekes is saying in the OP, which is the central point of this thread, what's your interpretation of Weekes statements? 



#1346
Sifr

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Breakdown of Dai Grepher's speculation from the GDC video;

 

3:30 Epler - The Qunari, an invading force from across the sea that hates magic.

Here Epler refers to the Qunari we see in Trespasser as an invading force that hates magic. So clearly he is not referring to the Qunari people. He is only referring to the Qunari in the DLC that try to invade. This is Viddasala's group. This means Viddasala's group is separate from the rest of Qunari society in what they are doing in the DLC.

 

False-equivalence. You assume because you think they are not invading, they cannot be the people referred to.

 

In actuality, Epler is defining the Qunari for the uninitiated. The Qunari are from across the sea and are an Anti-Magic. These are things that we have seen repeatedly and have been established in the lore as far back as Origins. By defining the Qunari and referring to them as "an invading force", he's making it clear this is the faction we are dealing with in Trespasser.

 

20:00 Weekes - Solas' spy, who points out the Qunari body, was not supposed to be his spy in the original draft. Idea added later.

This proves two things. 1. "The Qunari" can refer to anything, from one individual Qunari to the Qunari as a people or as race. So just because someone says "the Qunari" doesn't mean they are referring to the Qunari people or the Qunari leadership. 2. The original story had this elf as your agent. They changed this in the end to be Solas' agent. This proves that storylines can start out one way but end up being something completely different. Just because this elf was your agent in one of the first drafts doesn't mean she is in the canon release. So you wouldn't argue that she is actually an Inquisition agent, would you? No, because the storyline was changed. This is very important.

 

Weeks tells us that the Elf who shows us the body was an Inquisition agent from the earliest draft, but they realised how perfect it was to show the levels of infiltration in our ranks by making them one of Solas' double-agents later on. It fit thematically the tone of the story, so they went with it. In the final canon game, they work for both Solas and the Inquisition.

 

This argument that something changed with the writing has nothing to do with the Qunari. Furthermore, your assertion these aren't real Qunari because "the Qunari" is a nebulous term within the franchise, is a logical fallacy because when you look at in context, Epler started by accurately defining the term here as referring to the resident magical anti-faction from over the sea (The Qunari under the Qun) who are launching an invasion.

 

But because you don't want it to mean them, you seem intent to insist it means otherwise.

 

22:20 Wanted to have the Qunari present.

Establish the Qunari as a threat. Amp up tension.

Tie Qunari to lyrium mining. Hopefully enough of a hook. It wasn't.

The Qunari didn't have a great reason to be there mining lyrium. No story connection.

This is all self-explanatory. They had the Qunari minding lyrium, it wasn't enough of a hook because they had no reason and this didn't connect to the story in any way.

 

Which they then go back to when they discuss the aborted idea of Qunari Templars, as well as the route they eventually went with with the Saarebas. We know the reason now why they were mining lyrium, for the purposes of study and because they intend to use it on their mages.

 

23:10 Weekes - At the start of the dungeon, you knew the Qunari were a problem doing something bad. At the end of the dungeon, you knew the Qunari were a problem doing something bad. No rising tension.

Explain what they are doing and give them a reason.

Again, Weekes is referring to the Qunari in Trespasser as "the Qunari". Not the Qunari as a nation or as a race. Also, he wants to give them a reason to be there mining lyrium.

 

Again, you're making the assertion that because it's a nebulous term, it doesn't mean the nation. Epler defined it and made it clear that the group being referred to where those under the Qun.
 

23:33 Epler - Tension graphing. Low tension x3, then all of a sudden you're fighting the "Qunari leader".

John Epler explains the graph showing how much tension there was in the DLC at each stage. He points out three places with low tension, the Deep Roads included, and then refers to the stage in which the tension jumps and we are fighting the "Qunari leader". He is clearly referring to Viddasala and identifying her as the Qunari's leader. This proves that she was the top commander of this mission, and that she was alone in this command. Epler didn't call her "one of the Qunari leaders", he called her THE Qunari leader.

Now, we know from the game that she is nothing more than the head of the Ben-Hassrath's Dangerous Purpose branch. She is not a leader among the Qunari people. She is an agent. Calling her the leader proves that Dragon's Breath was her idea and hers alone. She had no other agents lateral or above her to direct the mission. She was the only high ranking official there. No other high ranking Qunari agent was involved. Not any other priest of the Ben-Hassrath, not the Ariqun, not the other members of the Triumvirate.

This proves Viddasala was unauthorized. In an authorized operation, she would not have been the leader.

 

The Viddasala is the Qunari leader in charge of overseeing this operation.

 

You are assuming that because no-one else is present she was not sanctioned by the Triumvirate to conduct the operation and carry it out on their behalf, but we simply do not have enough evidence or information about their hierarchy when it comes to field operations to say that this isn't the case.

 

If we were to assume the Qunari are acting with the intention of plausible deniability, then it would be sensible to have only one person running the op should it be discovered. They can more easily disavow the actions of one, rather than having to explain why so many important high-ranking Qunari were present in the Darvaraad at the time this aborted invasion was thwarted.

 

24:05 Writing side. Weekes - What do the Qunari hate? Magic. They want to suppress magic. Best way to suppress magic is templars, so what if the Qunari were making templars? What if the Qunari were mining lyrium to make templars? This makes sense.

So here is Weekes explaining their thought process for giving the Qunari a reason to be there mining lyrium. The Qunari hate magic, so the first idea was to make templars.

 

So you are agreeing now with Epler that the Qunari are indeed a "force from across the sea that hates magic"... because if you stick "invading" in front of that to complete the definition he began with, what do you think he's telling us about what faction these Qunari belong to and their intentions?
 

24:40 Jerran explains Qunari are here mining lyrium to make templars so they can suppress our mages when they invade the South. This makes sense... or not.

The first idea was to have Jerran explain that the Qunari were making templars so they can suppress the Southern mages when they invade. This made sense, until it didn't.

Three things here. 1. Just because they are planning to invade the South doesn't mean the Triumvirate was. 2. This storyline was scrapped. So regardless of what you think Weekes was referring to, this storyline is not canon because it didn't make sense. 3. Even if the Triumvirate approved of a plan such as this, they wouldn't have started it during Trespasser. The Qunari would have tested out the templars ahead of time against Tevinter first. It makes no sense to test them right before Dragon's Breath. So the Triumvirate being involved makes no sense.

 

 

25:55 Needed something simpler, something to work with the gameplay. Took out idea of Qunari templars. Didn't make sense. What did make sense was the saarebas.

A few things here. They scrapped the idea of Qunari templars being used for invasion to suppress southern mages. Scrapped it. Gone. Dead. Now, if the Triumvirate had at any point been intended to be part of this operation as having authorized it (which they weren't, and Weekes indicates this is still Viddasala only), then dropping this templar storyline would also mean dropping any storyline about the Triumvirate authorizing it. We know this because what are you left with to combat southern mages during an official invasion?

In other words, if your plan was to invade with templar Qunari to combat southern mages, but then this idea gets scrapped, then what would the official invasion use instead? Nothing. There is nothing else you can use.

So they replaced this with a plot where the Viddasala uses saarebas instead. This is because a saarbas fits the gameplay style.

 

Insane Troll Logic all over the board here.

 

Because they aborted the idea of the Qunari deciding to make Templars, you are wrongly inferring and assuming that means the invasion was made non-canon as well. All Weekes is telling us here is that they decided to nix the idea of Qunari Templars, this has nothing to do with debunking the Triumvirate being involved with the invasion.

 

Weekes actually explains why the Qunari would use Saarebas instead of Templars below, that they are far more powerful than Southern Mages because they've been suppressed so long, letting them unleash is far more devastating, even when pitted against other magic users.

 

26:19 Weekes - The saarebas are suppressed by the Qunari culture. The Qunari in Trespasser give lyrium to saarebas. They're making super-weapons. Taking parched mages and hooking them up to a fire-hose.

This is objectively a really bad idea for the Qunari. But that is the kind of short term gain/long term loss, dangerous deal with the devil that characters in the Dragon Age universe make all the time.

And here is Weekes 100% irrefutable confirmation that Viddasala was unauthorized. He differentiates the Qunari in Trespasser from the rest of Qunari culture. Separating the two. What the Qunari in Trespasser were directed to do is the exact opposite of what Qunari culture has taught since the culture was founded. The Qunari culture suppresses saarebas to magic. Viddasala and those she ordered around were immersing saarebas in magic. This directly contradicts the Qun and Qunari culture. The Triumvirate is confirmed to have no part in this by extension.

Weekes also confirms this is a bad idea, but is the type of deal that DA characters make all the time. By referring to characters, Weekes confirms this is Viddasala alone. This is not the Triumvirate as a collective making this choice. It is only Viddasala.

Also, to go back to my previous point of what else would you invade with, saarebas would not be the Triumvirate's answer. Not only would the Qunari not have templars to combat southern mages, but they would then be using their own saarebas. What does the South have to combat these saarebas? Templars! So how does it make sense to send your own mages against templars in the South? Clearly this was just Viddasala's insane plan, and Jerran even states as much in the game.

And to bring up another previous point, even if we are to believe that the Triumvirate made a sudden 180 on keeping saarebas separate from all magic, and instead started powering them up with lyrium (in violation of the Qun), then once again I state that they would have tested all of this on Seheron first in battles against Tevinter. They would not risk testing them during Dragon's Breath, which was supposedly the linchpin to a southern invasion.

 

Actually this shows how serious the Qunari are about invading the South, because they are prepared to suffer this necessary evil and unleash their mages, something they almost never do. When they let them off the leash to use against the Free Marches centuries prior, the Saarebas were capable of reducing city walls to rubble far quicker than any siege weaponry could have.

 

If the Qunari really wanted to eliminate all magic, they'd murder their mages rather than restrain them. But they don't. Instead they turn them into powerful weapons that can only destroy (no healing skills whatsoever) because they are keeping them in reserve for when things are so bad, they need to bring out the big guns. Saarebas are the equivalent to nukes, something you never want to use if you can help it, but you want to have just in case you have no other option.

 

Furthermore you are projecting again your own interpretation onto Weekes' words, when he says about this being a deal with the devil, something we often see from characters in this series. Weekes never specifies the Viddasala here, so you cannot make the assertion that he's talking about her, nor it was her idea and not that of the Triumvirate. It's a blanket statement he was making, not specific enough to deny or confirm anything.

 

What you forget is that because the plan uses Eluvians, something that also allows secret lyrium mining to take place, which shows they are acting in a very stereotypical Qunari manner by taking advantage of the situation to accomplish multiple goals. They get to wipe out the southern leadership, use the Eluvians to establish beachheads, mine the necessary lyrium and test out their new Saarebas in combat.

 

It also makes sense to testing the super-Saarebas against the Southern Mages first, because the restrictions of the Circles mean that they are overall weaker... or at least have less combat experience and tricks up their sleeves than Vint mages. It gives them a good indicator for what they might expect should they decide to turn them against the Imperium next.

 

Also, we see that despite the Saarebas being super-charged, they are still bound so the Arvaraad can control them and bring them back under heel. That the Qunari have a serious "Oh sh-" moment when the Saarebas breaks out of his restraints in Trespasser, backs up what Weekes said about how dangerous this gamble would be if it should blow up in their face.

 

29:07 Revision - Test ideas to see if they work. If they don't you can change them to something better.

This part proves that the writing team had ideas that didn't work, and they scrapped them. So even if Dragon's Breath was meant to be official at some point during production, then it was scrapped before the final release. But I contend this was never to be an authorized mission, and both Weekes and Epler confirmed this in the conference presentation.

 

Again, wild speculation on your part.

 

Watching the video, Weekes and Epler never talk about the Viddasala or the Triumivirate, nor do they claim this was the actions of rogue group or any of the other dozen "facts" that think this video has proven? Actually do they even say the words "Viddasala", "Qun" or "Triumvirate" once?

 

Most of your "irrefutable" facts are merely what you've been accusing us all of, wild speculation, reading things and putting words into the mouths of people who actually said nothing even remotely close what what you are claiming they are confirming?

 

---

 

Apologies for having to cross-examine you in this manner, but it seemed necessary at this point. It's a little hard to endure (over) fifty pages of being accused of wild flights of fancy whilst providing actual evidence and words from the writer's own mouth, when the other side gives only speculation or inference from what they said, while touting it as "irrefutable facts".


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#1347
AlanC9

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I'm thinking so. If she were off the reservation, however, a Qun loyal IB would know it, and wouldn't turn on you, since she's not authorized to be running an operation, or to be running it the way she is. That's the problem I have with the whole "she went too far" line. People are reporting to their superiors, and if she's going to far, those superiors are going to know it, and they're going to take it up the chain, which means that, a Qun loyal IB is going to be in on the details. It makes for a tasty "What if" scenario, and if IB had remained loyal, it would have had some merit, but he remains loyal to the Qun, which is why he turns on you.


I don't see the mechanism for the italed part. If IB's chain runs up to the Viddasala herself, who tells him that she's off the reservation?

#1348
AlanC9

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So, in relation to what Weekes is saying in the OP, which is the central point of this thread, what's your interpretation of Weekes statements?

I don't have one. I'm questioning yours, not proposing my own. Honestly, I found Weekes' statement a bit confusing.

What's your interpretation of the letters? What are they there for? Outright mistake? Possible. Deliberate misleading of the player? To what end?

#1349
Almostfaceman

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I don't have one. I'm questioning yours, not proposing my own. Honestly, I found Weekes' statement a bit confusing.

What's your interpretation of the letters? What are they there for? Outright mistake? Possible. Deliberate misleading of the player? To what end?

 

What was confusing about the statement for you? 

 

In the context of the OP, the letters are misdirection to the player. To what end? To create mystery. Also, depending on the letter, to explain why the Qunari are using magical items like the eluvians and lyrium. So why did Weekes come along later and clear things up? I don't know, you'd have to ask him. 

 

But he did. 



#1350
Almostfaceman

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I don't see the mechanism for the italed part. If IB's chain runs up to the Viddasala herself, who tells him that she's off the reservation?

 

The same thing that puts Iron Bull in our story. Bioware. 

 

As far as in-game story cinematics or mechanics we never see Iron Bull communicate with his chain of command. It's all off-screen. And it's all 100% real Qunari, he knows when he's on the reservation and off the reservation. There's no reason to see it any differently in Trespasser, as Weekes explains in the OP.