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[Giantdeathrobot]

Because it's not clear how IB has a communication chain to his bosses which doesn't pass right through the Viddasala. Wouldn't both Cory and the Inquisitor be part of her area of concern? That would mean that IB works for her, and what he knows is what she tells him.

What am I missing about IB's communication chain? How does it route around the Viddasala?

 

Pretty sure IB is a high ranking enough spy that his information network doesn't wholly depend on the Vidassala's, assuming he's even her direct subordinate. If he has doubts about her legitimacy, I'm certain he can ask and get an answer from elsewhere.

 

And given that we know from Cole that IB had no doubts whatsoever going into the Ben-Hassrath fortress, I think it is safe to assume he had confirmation that she was legit.

[Dai Grepher]

^Josephine's letter confirms that Hissrad tried to contact his direct superiors, to no avail. Cole only says that he felt nothing from Hissrad when he turned. This only confirms that Hissrad blindly followed without thinking.

I don't find it likely either, though it's possible that Saarath was the test case.

His letter implies that he was turned in short order. The message indicates that different parts of his letter were written at different times over the course of a few days. It states this at the top of the message, and it also states that the ink be is dried at the top, and at the bottom some ink is still wet. He becomes crazier with each entry. But even if he was the test case, where was he tested? On Seheroh? I'm asking because if the Qunari are going to risk using saarebas, then why haven't they tested this out on Seheron against Tevinter to see if they are effective and controllable? Dorian mentions nothing about any such tactics being employed against his homeland. So why are they testing this during the invasion?

We don't know that. The proper invasion wouldn't be coming through the Eluvians, but advancing conventionally to employ their numbers and cannons to take advantage of the chaos. We don't know what the rest of the Antaam was prepared to do. There's no evidence to suggest that Vidasala was lying about the plan.

We know it from the fact that no ships or troops are spotted anywhere in or around the South even after the southern courts are warned of the danger. The South considers the Llomeryn Accords still in place, and there is no war against Par Vollen.

The fact that the invasion didn't happen suggests Viddasala was lying about the plan. The fact that she claims the Qunari leaders decided to invade when they first saw the Breach suggests she was lying because it contradicts what The Iron Bull said when we first met him.

It required a large deployment of resources and I doubt Vidasala usually has command over portions of the Antaam. That they're assigned to her implies that this is being treated military operation at least on some level. It beggars my belief that she could hide this from the triumvirate.

So if I can prove that Viddasala could get all those resources without the Triumvirate knowing her true goal, would you agree that she was unauthorized?

First, the antaam. The codices on the various Qunari branches show that the Ben-Hassrath priests can request protection from the antaam, especially if they are out in the field and face unknown threats. Viddasala could have justified her request by saying that she and her agents were in elvhen ruins hunting dangerous items. Second, this is also how she was able to get some gaatlok, to blow up the dangerous items. But the Arigena wouldn't let enough out of Par Vollen for what the Viddasala secretly wanted. That is why Viddasala had to make her own gaatlok, which is a violation of the Qun. Third, most of her followers were hers already. They were Ben-Hassrath agents or viddathari. So she had regular oversight over these people. Fourth, she probably did not inform the Triumvirate of the eluvians. Which means she could use them to travel from the Darvaarad to the other locations and then back again. She could orchestrate her plot far away, and the Triumvirate would be under the impression that she was always present and accounted for at the Darvaarad.

Doesn't mean anything. That she knew it was a possibility doesn't mean she would be pleased by it. At that point she was off the rails and probably assumed her own success or didn't care about their approval anymore, so whether or not the reply was delivered mattered little.

So following the Triumvirate's wishes doesn't mean anything? Hmmm. And blocking their attempt to stop an Exalted March on Par Vollen mattered little? So she was "off the rails" after a certain point, but up until then she was sanctioned? And okay, she wasn't pleased by it. So take it out on the Inquisitor, not the Triumvirate's letter. And if this was all sanctioned, why did she care what the Triumvirate was sending to the Inquisition?

Leadership doesn't just mean the heads of state. The implication of Vidasala's plan as outlined is that virtually everyone in proximity to rule will be killed, leaving the ambitious lower levels of nobility. Think the situation of the Chantry after the Conclave explosion, except each ambitious cleric has an army. You'd see civil wars and succession crises throughout Thedas.

No you wouldn't. First off, killing every leader and their generals? Impossible. Nothing says they will all be gathered around mysterious barrels at the same time. And the attacks would need to happen at the same time. Any delay in some will mean those targets hit first will send word to neighboring bannorns. So even if all lords and their generals and captains are killed at the same time, that still leaves the freeholders to take control. But the most likely outcome, assuming some leaders were killed, is that the generals would take command of each bannorn, arling, or teyrnir. They would not war. They would not dispute lands. A land's general would run that land. They would certainly not attack any other bannorns with their own house trying to recover, and this would be everyone. So no, they would not war, they would recover quickly and then band together to mount a national defense once they find out what happened.

I imagine the Free Marches would be the same way, only each of those states has multiple lords in line for succession, they are more likely to replace their heads of state with better people.

Nevarra is an unknown.

Orlais would likely see the highest ranking commander take control in the event that the Council of Heralds was assassinated. But those are just political figures. In the event that Celene and Gaspard were dead, all Orlesian knights would unite behind the highest ranking commander, and he or she might have other chevaliers to act as generals. Remember, the chevaliers and knights are not sworn to any particular house, as Cullen explains in the conference before going to the ball. They follow strength.

Then of course there's the fact that the Dragon's Breath plot could fail due to poor planning and implementation. Viddasala was relying on viddathari, mostly elven, to place the gaatlok barrels in the correct spots. We see that these same viddathari can't even follow directions to make gaatlok properly. Are they really going to get their placement right? More importantly, would the Triumvirate risk their invasion on viddathari getting it right? If this were official, then it's nothing but one big gamble with little to gain and everything to lose.

Uh, no. You see, my theory is that she was authorized to do whatever was necessary to enact Dragon's Breath.

Including mining lyrium and wasting time in another dimension? Ya know, things that have nothing to do with assassinating southern leaders?

When IB turned on me, it was proof that she was.

Yeah, that's what I wrote about how you viewed the event. You simply jumped to the conclusion that it supported your preconceived theory. You didn't analyze it.

IB was Qun loyal, or he wouldn't have turned,

That Hissrad was Qun loyal doesn't mean Viddasala was authorized. What if he turned because he didn't want to take the risk of being declared Tal-Vashoth? Or what if he knew Viddasala was unauthorized but the fact they were being attacked by real Qunari meant that he was duty bound to join his fellow real Qunari, authorized or not? And if you were correct, and Hissrad must obey Viddasala's order, then why didn't he obey her order in the Vir Dirthara when she said to kill the Inquisitor?

and, since he was Qun loyal, that means he was still getting reports,

Completely false. He can be Qun loyal and Viddasala can be intercepting the messages sent to him by his superiors. She intercepted the reply letter to Josephine after all, and Josephine's letter confirms that Hissrad has received no reports.

and if they'd truly felt like they had a rogue agent in charge of their operation, they'd have passed that tidbit on to IB,

And what if they didn't know anything about Viddasala's actions, like the Triumvirate letter states? How would they pass this on to Hissrad?

[Dai Grepher]

who would then have told her she was out of line, instead of turning on us.

Speculation. You don't know how Hissrad would have responded. In fact, that he can be present to see the Triumvirate letter disavowing her implies that he still would have turned on us.

Before you spout more "using your own headcanon" nonsense:

If you post arguments I will refute them with facts and logic. If you post things that weren't in the game or weren't in Weekes' or Epler's statements, then I will call you on using your headcanon.

It is confirmed by Solas that there were so many Qunari spies in the Inquisition that his and their spies were tripping over each other.

So what? Those spies could be only Viddasala's, in which case they are illegitimate, but even if the Triumvirate sent them, that doesn't mean anything. The Triumvirate can spy on the Inquisition without taking aggressive action against it, as can the Inquisition spy on other nations without plotting any kind of attack.

This means that there existed plenty of network for IB to get the information that the Viddasala was out of control, and needed to be dealt with.

Not so. The Viddasala would instruct her spies not to say anything to Hissrad. In a Tal-Vashoth Bull worldstate, she might even tell them not to go anywhere near him since he might spot them. Which means any report Hissrad gets will be from his real superiors, who will genuinely know nothing of Viddasala's actions. See, you think your theory is possible because any spy could have informed Hissrad that Viddasala was acting outside the Qun, but the only ones who would know that are those who work for Viddasala, and she has already convinced them that her actions are right.

Oh, except for Jerran. Yeah, Jerran tells Hissrad to his face that Viddasala has completely lost it. So now what robertthebard? Are you going to reevaluate your theory?

Wait a second.... wouldn't IB be in the Viddasala's chain of command anyway? Wouldn't his reports come from her?

Officially he is part of Dangerous Questions, and Viddasala is the head of Dangerous Purpose. So no, he would not get anything from her officially. However, the other side here thinks that Hissrad was in on the whole thing, and that he learned this through his own official superiors.

They think he was just pretending to be on the Inquisitor's side when he was cutting down one Qunari after another and helping to completely destroy Dragon's Breath.

I'm thinking so. If she were off the reservation, however, a Qun loyal IB would know it, and wouldn't turn on you, since she's not authorized to be running an operation, or to be running it the way she is.

And how would he know that? His superiors didn't know anything about it, all of his letters to his superiors were likely intercepted by Viddasala because he received nothing back from them, and the only ones able to tattle on Viddasala are her own trusted agents. Oh... and Jerran, who did in fact tattle on her.

That's the problem I have with the whole "she went too far" line. People are reporting to their superiors, and if she's going to far, those superiors are going to know it, and they're going to take it up the chain, which means that, a Qun loyal IB is going to be in on the details.

But if she claims to be in charge, then the highest they can go is her. Right? So who did Jerran go to? What superior of his or Viddasala's did he inform of Viddasala's actions? No one. He was trapped. So he told us when we found him because that's all he could do.

It makes for a tasty "What if" scenario, and if IB had remained loyal, it would have had some merit, but he remains loyal to the Qun, which is why he turns on you.

Yeah, the Qun, not an authorized operation. That's the point you're missing here. We don't know what his rationale was. Neither he nor Patrick Weekes explain it. You might believe Hissrad decided that yes, Viddasala is authorized according to logical deduction, but I claim he only realized that the Qunari he was fighting were real Qunari, which means he is forbidden from fighting them after that realization. That Viddasala is unauthorized means nothing. He is not allowed to let fellow Qunari die. So as soon as he realizes that they are real Qunari, that's it, he must join them. Failure to do so means he would be declaring himself Tal-Vashoth.

But I doubt he was under the Vidassala.When he is Tal Vashoth , so he has no reason to lie to you , he seems to not really know what the Vidassala is doing.I think he says the Qunari should smash Eluvians.
But under "Dangerous Purpose" it makes sense to study/quarantine magical stuff and not just smash them.

Right. As Tal-Vashoth he says the same things. So he genuinely isn't sure about what is going on. But as it applies to the other side's theory, if he was in the loop, and this was official, then he should have known from the start that everything was legitimate, in which case he should have turned on the Inquisitor as soon as the first Qunari ran out of the temple in the elvhen ruins.

I don't deny that would be a job badly done. The problem is, Occam's razor and previous precedent (especially Florianne's, who was in a similar predicament) don't give us any reason to suspect she's brighter than the ones who came before her.

The simplest answer is that she is lying, since the Triumvirate letter contradicts her. If she is legitimate, she would obey the letter. If she is acting on her own, she would disregard it and implicate the Triumvirate. Again, not claiming she's anything just because she talks about an invasion plan. I'm claiming she is disobeying the Triumvirate's wishes by implicating them, and if she were authorized, she should know that plausible deniability was something the Triumvirate reserved for themselves from the start. Viddasala serves no one by implicating the Triumvirate in an attack against the South.

And if we take this as her acting outside the Qun in this case, then why wouldn't this apply to all of her actions?

[Dai Grepher]

Personal conspiracy or authorized secret ops, the notes and letters found do in fact suggest she can be suicidally stubborn in the face of failure.

Fine, be stubborn, but cover for the Triumvirate. That was her role wasn't it? Be covert and don't let anything trace back to the Triumvirate? So what does she do? Implicates the Triumvirate.

I think you're mistaking the side of the table groaning with the weight of all the evidence, because that doesn't seem to be the side you're sitting on. You've thus far presented nothing of the sort, whereas we've sourced our repeatedly.

*Copies and pastes this statement as a response*

I watched that video, but I cannot fathom how you got any of those ideas from it, because Weekes said nothing of the sort.

And if you have paid any attention to the quote, you'd see they intended them to be legitimate Qunari from the start. They toyed with the idea of making them a rogue offshoot to save the Qunari card for later, but decided that would be cheap and abandoned that idea.

In other words, we're dealing with real friggin' Qunari who follow the Qun.

We'll see when you go through it and I reply.

I did pay attention to that. The statement does not imply they meant for it to be a legitimate invasion attempt, but even if it was, it was dropped. Weekes clearly says they dropped that idea. So it's moot. And without templars to combat the southern mages, the entire plot changes. Par Vollen would have nothing to match the southern mages in this case.

Yeah, I never wrote that we weren't dealing with real Qunari who follow the Qun. I wrote that they are not authorized to attack the South, and nothing in the OP counters this.

Someone is reading something into the statement and putting their own spin on it, but I don't think it's us.

Well, it is. This thread is littered with posts from robertthebard and Almostfaceman posting words that do not actually appear in Weekes' statements.

All I am doing is taking Weekes' literal words for what they actually mean.

If you want some baseless speculation, let's cross-examine that entire post you did about Weekes' statements at the conference...

Good idea.

False-equivalence. You assume because you think they are not invading, they cannot be the people referred to.

No. I point out that Epler was only referring to the Qunari who were invading. The only Qunari we see invading in Trespasser are those under Viddasala.

In actuality, Epler is defining the Qunari for the uninitiated. The Qunari are from across the sea and are an Anti-Magic.

But he says, "an invading force from across the sea that hates magic". An invading force indicates one group. If he were talking about the Qunari race, or the Qunari society, he wouldn't have called it an invading force. He would have worded it much differently. For example, "The Qunari, a society from across the sea that hates magic and is currently invading the South".

These are things that we have seen repeatedly and have been established in the lore as far back as Origins. By defining the Qunari and referring to them as "an invading force", he's making it clear this is the faction we are dealing with in Trespasser.

He's referring to the Viddasala's faction we are dealing with in Trespasser. Not the nation of Par Vollen as a whole.

This argument that something changed with the writing has nothing to do with the Qunari.

It has everything to do with it. See my reply above about the first draft about Qunari templars being scrapped. So even if official invasion was the plan, which nothing in the conference statements implies that it was, the fact they dropped it means they would necessarily drop the official invasion plan as well. This is because without Qunari templars, Par Vollen has nothing to use against the southern mages. Thus invasion is once again off the table. The final canon release had this whole operation as unauthorized.

Furthermore, your assertion these aren't real Qunari because "the Qunari" is a nebulous term within the franchise, is a logical fallacy because when you look at in context, Epler started by accurately defining the term here as referring to the resident magical anti-faction from over the sea (The Qunari under the Qun) who are launching an invasion.

I didn't write that they weren't real Qunari. My point here was in reply to a discussion I and Almostfaceman had dozens of pages back regarding what "the Qunari" refers to. My point was that "the Qunari" can refer to an individual Qunari, a specific group of Qunari, or the Qunari as a race or society. It depends how it is used. That was my only point here.

[Dai Grepher]

But because you don't want it to mean them, you seem intent to insist it means otherwise.

No, I wish the operation had been official. But I won't twist facts to fit my preference. I identify his words for exactly what they are and their definitions.

Which they then go back to when they discuss the aborted idea of Qunari Templars, as well as the route they eventually went with with the Saarebas. We know the reason now why they were mining lyrium, for the purposes of study and because they intend to use it on their mages.

But who are "they" in this part of the discussion? I point out that they are talking about Viddasala and her followers.

Again, you're making the assertion that because it's a nebulous term, it doesn't mean the nation. Epler defined it and made it clear that the group being referred to where those under the Qun.

Answered above.

The Viddasala is the Qunari leader in charge of overseeing this operation.

Yeah, and the question is on what authority.

You are assuming that because no-one else is present she was not sanctioned by the Triumvirate to conduct the operation and carry it out on their behalf, but we simply do not have enough evidence or information about their hierarchy when it comes to field operations to say that this isn't the case.

It isn't an assumption. The Qunari take their roles seriously. It's one of the fundamental building blocks of their civilization. Your skills and aptitudes are assessed, and you are assigned a role. Viddasala was assigned the roles of finding, studying, and stopping magic, as well as reeducating new converts and Qunari dissidents. It isn't in her job description to lead assassination attempts, especially convoluted ones that involve mining lyrium and feeding it to saarebas. It also isn't in her job description to make gaatlok with non-Arigena workers. It certainly isn't her role to give military orders to anyone, based on the mere fact she is a woman. If it were a male priest? Maybe, but the role would still be better suited to commanders within the antaam.

My point is that if this had been an official invasion attempt, the different actions of the plan would have been executed by those whose roles made them best qualified to oversee those actions.

If we were to assume the Qunari are acting with the intention of plausible deniability, then it would be sensible to have only one person running the op should it be discovered. They can more easily disavow the actions of one, rather than having to explain why so many important high-ranking Qunari were present in the Darvaraad at the time this aborted invasion was thwarted.

So which does the Triumvirate want? Do they want some weak attempt they can try to deny when it most likely fails, or do they want a successful attack that devastates the South and makes it easier for them to invade?

Let's be honest here Sifr. A plan in which the Triumvirate appointed only the Viddasala to attempt an important assassination operation so that they could plausibly deny it later if it failed, is just plain stupid. If they are serious about invasion, they will put more agents on it to make sure it is successful. They aren't going to assign it to one agent who isn't skilled in most areas of the operation. They aren't going to have her make her own gaatlok, they're just going to supply it through the Arigena. And why would they care about denying the operation if they truly authorized it? Why because they don't want the South to blame them for it if it doesn't work or it's discovered? What makes them think the South won't blame them regardless? What makes them think the South will believe any excuse they give them?

The "plausible deniability" theory is just a thinly veiled excuse to explain why the Triumvirate disavowed Viddasala and why there is no invasion or war at the end of Trespasser. The game makes it clear that it wasn't official.

So you are agreeing now with Epler that the Qunari are indeed a "force from across the sea that hates magic"... because if you stick "invading" in front of that to complete the definition he began with, what do you think he's telling us about what faction these Qunari belong to and their intentions?

That the Qunari in Trespasser hate magic? Not seeing your point here.

First, look again. That is Weekes' statement, not Epler's. Second, I have not contested that the Qunari hate magic, both the small Qunari group in Trespasser and the Qunari of Par Vollen in general. But this has nothing to do with the "invading" comment Epler made earlier in the conference. Third, this is only explaining why they were in the mines and why they were mining lyrium. And this is just pointing out what Weekes said because in that post I was leading up to a bigger point following this, which was that feeding saarebas lyrium is way outside what the Triumvirate would authorize.

Because they aborted the idea of the Qunari deciding to make Templars, you are wrongly inferring and assuming that means the invasion was made non-canon as well. All Weekes is telling us here is that they decided to nix the idea of Qunari Templars, this has nothing to do with debunking the Triumvirate being involved with the invasion.

Two things. Weekes never said that Par Vollen was planning to make Qunari templars. This could have just been Viddasala's plot as well. So nothing indicates this was official in the first place, but even if it was official, Weekes said they dropped the idea. Second point. If it were official, then by dropping the idea of Qunari templars this automatically drops the idea of it being official. This is because if the Triumvirate had been thinking of a way to neutralize the southern mages when they invade, and their solution was Qunari templars, then that could work. But if templars are no longer on the table, then what does the Triumvirate have to neutralize the southern mages? They don't have Qunari templars, and saarebas won't neutralize southern mages, and the saarebas can be neutralized by the southern templars.

So how does this make any sense in the context of official invasion? They are still going to invade even though they have no way to neutralize the southern mages? And they are going to risk using saarebas when even if they do manage to stay under Qunari control, the southern templars will just neutralize their magic anyway?

Make that make sense.

Weekes actually explains why the Qunari would use Saarebas instead of Templars below, that they are far more powerful than Southern Mages because they've been suppressed so long, letting them unleash is far more devastating, even when pitted against other magic users.

That's... not how he put it. In fact he described it as risky. Anyway, I already explained in the initial post that Weekes was referring to Viddasala, not the Triumvirate. She was the one taking the short term gain/long term loss "deal with the devil" that DA characters are known to take. The Triumvirate isn't going to make that deal.

And as an aside, that would be a stupid plan. The saarebas can't cast spells, and the southern mages can. The southern mages also have lyrium and know how to use it effectively. Southern mages can also work together. Saarebas can't communicate with each other.

Actually this shows how serious the Qunari are about invading the South, because they are prepared to suffer this necessary evil and unleash their mages, something they almost never do. When they let them off the leash to use against the Free Marches centuries prior, the Saarebas were capable of reducing city walls to rubble far quicker than any siege weaponry could have.

Yeah, they're so serious about invading the South that they are going to risk using saarebas, and then add more risk by feeding them lyrium, and put one agent in place to oversee them while she handles all the other aspects of the operation. LOL!

They are serious, but... plausible deniability... ya know, just in case. We're serious, but we want to be able to bail on this at any time.

[Dai Grepher]

If the Qunari really wanted to eliminate all magic, they'd murder their mages rather than restrain them. But they don't. Instead they turn them into powerful weapons that can only destroy (no healing skills whatsoever) because they are keeping them in reserve for when things are so bad, they need to bring out the big guns. Saarebas are the equivalent to nukes, something you never want to use if you can help it, but you want to have just in case you have no other option.

We know why they don't kill them; because they do not believe in wasting lives. They use them as weapons because they see no other use for them. They are dangerous things to them, so of course a dangerous thing can be used in combat. So what? That doesn't mean anything. It certainly doesn't mean the Triumvirate will start feeding them lyrium.

Furthermore you are projecting again your own interpretation onto Weekes' words, when he says about this being a deal with the devil, something we often see from characters in this series. Weekes never specifies the Viddasala here, so you cannot make the assertion that he's talking about her, nor it was her idea and not that of the Triumvirate. It's a blanket statement he was making, not specific enough to deny or confirm anything.

Well he said "characters". So it is a statement about individuals. The Triumvirate is a governing body. Would all three of them take such a risk? No. The governments of the various nations do not take such risks. Their actions are measured and cautious. It is the individual characters of Dragon Age that stand out and do wild things.

Also, Jerran confirms that feeding lyrium to saarebas is Viddasala's plan. So...

What you forget is that because the plan uses Eluvians, something that also allows secret lyrium mining to take place, which shows they are acting in a very stereotypical Qunari manner by taking advantage of the situation to accomplish multiple goals. They get to wipe out the southern leadership, use the Eluvians to establish beachheads, mine the necessary lyrium and test out their new Saarebas in combat.

No, I don't forget what the eluvians can do. My argument is that they would not rely on them for an invasion, because if something goes wrong, they're stranded and cut off.

Why would they test out the saarebas during the invasion? Wouldn't they test them before the invasion, like against Tevinters on Seheron if they want the invasion to be successful?

It also makes sense to testing the super-Saarebas against the Southern Mages first, because the restrictions of the Circles mean that they are overall weaker... or at least have less combat experience and tricks up their sleeves than Vint mages. It gives them a good indicator for what they might expect should they decide to turn them against the Imperium next.

No it doesn't. Par Vollen was already at war with Tevinter. There is nothing to lose by attacking them with saarebas and going through trial and error. If you test them against the South first, and you fail, then you have just turned the entire South against you with that act of war. They wouldn't want to attack the South until their saarebas are ready, which would be never, because the South has real templars, unlike Tevinter. So the South is indeed the stronger target.

Also, we see that despite the Saarebas being super-charged, they are still bound so the Arvaraad can control them and bring them back under heel. That the Qunari have a serious "Oh sh-" moment when the Saarebas breaks out of his restraints in Trespasser, backs up what Weekes said about how dangerous this gamble would be if it should blow up in their face.

The saarebas in Trespasser had no arvaarads watching over them.

The Triumvirate knows the risk; it's why they would never give saarebas lyrium.

Again, wild speculation on your part.

Watching the video, Weekes and Epler never talk about the Viddasala or the Triumivirate, nor do they claim this was the actions of rogue group or any of the other dozen "facts" that think this video has proven? Actually do they even say the words "Viddasala", "Qun" or "Triumvirate" once?

Most of your "irrefutable" facts are merely what you've been accusing us all of, wild speculation, reading things and putting words into the mouths of people who actually said nothing even remotely close what what you are claiming they are confirming?

Funny. But unlike those on your side, I actually pointed out where Epler referred to the Viddasala. He said "the Qunari leader" in context of game levels.

Also, I never wrote that he said anything about the Triumvirate in that statement. Just pointing out that their description of the operation's details confirms that it wasn't authorized.

Apologies for having to cross-examine you in this manner, but it seemed necessary at this point. It's a little hard to endure (over) fifty pages of being accused of wild flights of fancy whilst providing actual evidence and words from the writer's own mouth, when the other side gives only speculation or inference from what they said, while touting it as "irrefutable facts".

No apology necessary. This is how debates are had. Thank you for replying.

In the context of the OP, the letters are misdirection to the player. To what end? To create mystery. Also, depending on the letter, to explain why the Qunari are using magical items like the eluvians and lyrium. So why did Weekes come along later and clear things up? I don't know, you'd have to ask him.

He didn't clear anything up; he answered a question about Iron Bull that was asked of him.

As for the letters, why would they want to tell the players it wasn't authorized if it really was? There is no mystery in that. It's fact. It's stating, "this is the way it is".

As far as in-game story cinematics or mechanics we never see Iron Bull communicate with his chain of command. It's all off-screen. And it's all 100% real Qunari, he knows when he's on the reservation and off the reservation. There's no reason to see it any differently in Trespasser, as Weekes explains in the OP.

Except Josephine's letter confirms that Hissrad tried contacting his superiors and received no reply. Viddasala's actions proved that she was intercepting letters going to the Inquisition.

We're told that there were several other letters in Qunlat going back and forth on the desk, so there's some degree of communication taking place between the Darvaraad and Par Vollen, it's not like she was operating previously in the dark.

No, the reply was sent to Josephine. Viddasala intercepted it. So whatever was written in Qunlat was for the Inquisition as well. We are never given the chance to translate any of it.

But even if communication was flowing between Par Vollen and the Darvaarad, so what? Viddasala could have just been reporting back that she was just being a good little Qunari.

[Dai Grepher]

Now, does this denouncement mean that she carried out the mission against new mission directives that aborted it... I suppose that is a possibility, because her crumpling the letter shows she was not happy by "official" story the Triumvirate went with.

Why if this was supposed to have plausible deniability from the start? And if this was just subterfuge, she shouldn't mind. She shouldn't even care that the Triumvirate is sending anything to the Inquisition.

But it seems more likely to me that Par Vollen always intended her to carry out the mission regardless, but were prepared to label her Tal-Vashoth if she failed, something that infuriated her. You can't really blame her for that. Imagine how you'd feel doing your duty and following orders, only to be branded a traitor regardless of whether you succeeded at your mission.

They don't brand Qunari Tal-Vashoth for failure. They brand them Tal-Vashoth if they willingly deny the Qun. If she were authorized from the start, then she had nothing to worry about.

Either way, it's clear she's never going to be able to go home again... so what does she have to lose?

Her purpose. Solas gave her the chance to walk away and tell the Qunari of the danger he posed and what he might have planned. She had a duty to inform the Triumvirate, or at the very least attack the Inquisitor when she had the chance. Instead she just committed suicide by Solas.

It's not all that complicated, according to Solas, there were so many Qunari spies in the Inquisition that his spies were tripping over them. Perhaps a Tal Vashoth IB wouldn't know, but a Qun loyal IB would certainly be made aware, since his operation is connected to what she's doing.

No it isn't, otherwise Viddasala would know that the Inquisition did not serve any agent of Fen'Harel.

How do you know that Qunari always lead from the front?

Not always, but during important missions, such as invasion. That is what the information on the antaam and the Arishok states, and Sten also states that their Kithshok handled things personally. An assassin sent to kill him thought that he was just an unimportant guard and went toward their fortification thinking the important person was there.

Also, I didn't write that they always led from the front, but this is the typical way of doing things. But if Trespasser was not one of those cases, then these antaam leaders should be somewhere. Right? But they are never seen in the game or by those watching the coasts and borders from signs of invasion.

In any case, there's one way to know this is a sanctioned operation...all those troops.

I already explained this. Any priest can request military protection.

But it isn't possible for Viddasala to move that many ships and troops without the rest of the Qunari knowing and countermanding it if they had a problem with.

What ships? And those on your side believe she did all this herself even if she was authorized. She had no help from any high-ranking agents.

They had to allow it. The only alternative is to assume they are weak and incompetent and about to lose their grip on power.

Or that Viddasala was able to trick them because they are too trusting in their methods. And it would be easy to trick them since Viddasala had access to magic mirrors. If she is at the Darvaarad on a Qunari island, then she can't be elsewhere doing things she isn't supposed to be doing. That's what the Triumvirate would have thought. That's why the news of her operating in the South caught them so off guard.

So why isn't Arishok there? Well the Qunari have to be aware of the risks of setting off another united Exalted March. If Viddasala's decapitation strike works that's going to be difficult to organize but if it doesn't...well, a bit of plausible deniability, allowing them the option of pulling out before things go to far. In other words "the secretary will disavow any knowledge".

And what makes them think the South won't just go, "HA! You had no knowledge of this? Yeah right!"?

The whole "Qunari lead from the front" thing is based on nothing. Sten never says so, neither does IB. The Arishok did not lead from the front at all; indeed, he kept his arse safe in Kirkwall's keep as Hawke mowed down wave after wave of his mooks.

He took the keep. That means he led the assault.

[Sifr]

 

Ben-Hassrath,Hissrad, Kossith to Viddasala and Iron-Bull......Oh  i'm having headaches 

This thread is increasing the numbers of Qunari words at the expense of english.

 

A quick cypher (from Sifr) to make it easier for newcomers to the thread, since it can be hard to follow all the Qunari terms being thrown around;

 

Spoiler

Qunari: A blanket term often used for the race, philosophy and those who follow it.

Viddathari: Strictly speaking, the more accurate term for the Humans, Elves and Dwarves who follow or converted to the Qun.

Bas: Qunari term for anyone who doesn't follow the Qun.

 

Kossith: Archaic term for the society that pre-dates the Qun. Not used for the race however.

Tal-Vashoth: Technically only applies to deserters who have left the Qun, but often used as a catch-all blanket term for any "Qunari" living outside of the Qun. Bull becomes one if he sacrifices the Chargers during his personal mission.

Vashoth: Members of the "Qunari" race born outside the Qun, such as the Qunari Inquisitor.

 

Ben-Hassrath: The Qunari spy group that both Bull and Viddasala work for.

Antaam: The Qunari military, headed by the Arishok.

Triumvirate: The group of three that lead the Qunari, consisting of the Arishok (military), Ariqun (priesthood/spies) and Arigena (craftsmen).

 

Viddasala: Female Qunari in charge of Dragon's Breath during Trespasser.

Hissrad: Iron Bull's name under the Qun. Can be used to denote the Qun-loyal Bull, if the Chargers were sacrificed to save Dreadnought.

Iron Bull: Hissrad's alias outside of the Qun. Can be used to denote Tal-Vashoth Bull if Dreadnought was sacrificed to save Chargers.

 

Hopefully that was easier to understand that the thread has been at times!

[Dai Grepher]

The idea that "Qunari lead from the front" is further debunked by Sten being sent with the Beresaad to answer the question "What is the Blight?" for the Arishok. If the Qunari didn't know how to delegate tasks that are deemed important, the Arishok would have come to Ferelden personally.

Information gathering is not the same as battle. The Arishok had other duties, and the antaam has multiple missions everywhere.

You people are claiming that this was an invasion attempt. So where is the Arishok during the most important invasion in recent history?

Granted, Sten's mission was to lead a small team in a bit of low-level reconnoitre to assess Fereldan military strength as well as gain information on the Blight, rather than leading hundreds in a large scale operation like in Trespasser, but the point stands.

No it doesn't. You refuted it yourself. Sten's mission was not war. Even if the Arishok wasn't supposed to be present in Trespasser, where are the Kithshoks? Where are the Stens?

I'm not sure what you're getting confused about. The Iron Bull has an official connection to his Qunari bosses. That's how he knows the Viddasala is conducting an official operation. The lines of communication are through spy networks to keep communications secure.

What's so confusing about that?

If that were true he would attack the Inquisitor in the elvhen ruins before Dragon's Breath was discovered.

You would think that if the Viddasala was a rogue agent, the other loyal members of the Ben-Hassrath would pass a note on to Hissrad, just to let him know that this woman is acting alone and shouldn't be trusted.

You mean like how Jerran said Viddasala has abandoned her role, right to Hissrad's face?

Why would they send a note to Hissrad if they think she is authorized? The fact that they attack Hissrad on sight indicates that Viddasala already told them that Hissrad is Tal-Vashoth and that they should ignore anything he says and kill him instead.

Boy, the qunari really dropped the ball on this whole mess, didn't they?

Yeah, just like the Inquisition did. Just like the Exalted Council did. Just like Orlais did. Just like Ferelden did. That's the whole theme of Trespasser. All places of power are corrupt and infiltrated with traitors. The Qunari are no exception.

"Inquisition, we want you to know that this woman has nothing to do with us. That said, we're not going to lift a finger to stop her, even though her success basically requires us to go to war with the south, and her failure means the loss of dozens of our agents and several bases. Something something demand of the Qun.

Oh, Hissrad is dead? Guess we should have let him know about the crazy lady. Well, nobody liked him anyway."

The crazy lady they didn't know was acting crazy? The Triumvirate letter said they were intervening to stop Viddasala themselves. It's just that you chase her into the mirror and she dies before the Qunari acting under official orders can get to her.

What am I missing about IB's communication chain? How does it route around the Viddasala?

It is supposed to go through the Dangerous Questions branch, which Viddasala does not run. However, she was intercepting his letters, as Josephine's note confirms. So there was no way for Hissrad to know that Viddasala was not authorized. But the other side thinks the whole thing was official, so Hissrad's legitimate superiors would have sent him word that it was on again. Not sure how this fits with the Qunari attacking him on sight though.

She's not the top dog, she's the leader of one group. Even if IB was in her cadre of resources, there are other things going on. Although, in retrospect, it doesn't make much sense for IB to be in her cadre of resources. His mission began well before hers did, presumably, anyway. I suspect, after thinking on it a bit, that his orders are coming from a somewhat higher source. Regardless, however, once they got that letter from Josephine, if it were a rogue operation, they'd have informed IB of such, to see if he could put a sock in it before it got out of hand.

Unless she intercept that along with the reply to Josephine.

However, as we see, the end result is that a Qun loyal IB turns on you at the behest of the Viddasala, so the odds are that the letter is a smokescreen, to provide plausible deniability. Of course she's going to be irate, nobody wants to think that their superiors are going to just leave them hanging if things go sideways.

If authorized she would have no reason to think that. And if a smokescreen, then Hissrad should have blown more smoke into it by refusing Viddasala's order.

But because he doesn't add to the smokescreen that proves it wasn't a smokescreen! /sarcasm

I'm not sure I follow. I thought the scene was meant to show her slipping hold on sanity as she finds out she's been disavowed. As to why she's intercepting letters from the Qunari to the Inquisition, presumably she's curious about the reply (given that the Inquisition is infiltrated to high heaven it makes sense she'd know Josie sent the letter).

She was curious? Why would she care what the Triumvirate sent to the Inquisition? Why wouldn't they just send her a letter telling her what they wrote in their reply to Josephine?

[IllustriousT]

Just when you thought Viddasala was dead:

 

Dun Dun DUUUUUN!

 

[Sifr]

They don't brand Qunari Tal-Vashoth for failure. They brand them Tal-Vashoth if they willingly deny the Qun. If she were authorized from the start, then she had nothing to worry about.

 

Not entirely true, as we saw with Sten's predicament in Origins.

 

Sten's commitment to the Qun was never in question, nor did he ever deny the Qun once.

 

Yet because he lost his sword (a personal failure) he could never return to Par Vollen, even though he had completed his mission successfully. He would have been branded Tal-Vashoth and slain on sight. It was the realisation over this which is probably what caused Sten to have a psychotic break and butcher an entire farmhold, unable to mentally cope with being branded Tal-Vashoth over something that wasn't even his fault.

 

So we do know that they will execute Qunari for certain types of failure, it's not always should they reject the Qun.

[Almostfaceman]

If that were true he would attack the Inquisitor in the elvhen ruins before Dragon's Breath was discovered.

 

Head canon. 

[Serza]

BY THE CREATORS, STOP THE MADNESS ALREADY.

[Almostfaceman]

As for the letters, why would they want to tell the players it wasn't authorized if it really was? There is no mystery in that. It's fact. It's stating, "this is the way it is".

Except Josephine's letter confirms that Hissrad tried contacting his superiors and received no reply. Viddasala's actions proved that she was intercepting letters going to the Inquisition.

 

And more head canon. 

[Almostfaceman]

BY THE CREATORS, STOP THE MADNESS ALREADY.

 

Just report it for spam. If the mods agree they'll lock the thread. 

[Sifr]

Except Josephine's letter confirms that Hissrad tried contacting his superiors and received no reply. Viddasala's actions proved that she was intercepting letters going to the Inquisition.

 

Yes... because why would a spy loyal to the invading nation, ever have cause to lie to the people who are being invaded?

 

Surely he would tell us straight away whether or not he's received any word from his superiors, because a Bull that is loyal to the Qunari, cannot be expected to be loyal to the Qunari and stay schtum, if they were planning an invasion and coup d'etat?

 

Even if we've seen evidence that they seem to be doing just that, we can trust him when he says he knows or has heard absolutely nothing! Especially not a man who's name under the Qun actually translates as "Liar", we can deffo count on him to be on the level with us.

 

[Dai Grepher]

Not entirely true, as we saw with Sten's predicament in Origins.

That is a special circumstance that is not related to any mission. It is a matter of personal identity. The Qunari belief is that a soldier's soul is his weapon. Losing it makes them soulless, and thus worthy of death if they try to reenter Par Vollen. That isn't Tal-Vashoth however, that is basically bas, or less than bas. You're basically like some wild creature. A rodent perhaps. That is why Sten lost control when he was told his sword was gone.

 

Sten's commitment to the Qun was never in question, nor did he ever deny the Qun once.

Nor was he declared Tal-Vashoth.

 

Yet because he lost his sword (a personal failure) he could never return to Par Vollen, even though he had completed his mission successfully. He would have been branded Tal-Vashoth and slain on sight. It was the realisation over this which is probably what caused Sten to have a psychotic break and butcher an entire farmhold, unable to mentally cope with being branded Tal-Vashoth over something that wasn't even his fault.

Being slain on sight isn't the same as being declared Tal-Vashoth though.
 
 

So we do know that they will execute Qunari for certain types of failure, it's not always should they reject the Qun.

We know of one certain type of failure, but this has nothing to do with Viddasala. The closest example is Tallis. She completely failed her mission, and yet she was only demoted.
 

Head canon.

No, logical result of your theory that Hissrad was in on it the whole time.

 

And more head canon.

No, Josephine's letter states this. It's in the canon.

 

Yes... because why would a spy loyal to the invading nation, ever have cause to lie to the people who are being invaded?

It has nothing to do with what Hissrad would tell them. Leliana was working with Hissrad and inspecting everything he sent. Josephine would also confirm that Hissrad's letters were real and were being sent. Otherwise she has no basis to write that in her letter to the Triumvirate.

 

Surely he would tell us straight away whether or not he's received any word from his superiors, because a Bull that is loyal to the Qunari, cannot be expected to be loyal to the Qunari and stay schtum, if they were planning an invasion and coup d'etat?

I can understand the concept of Hissrad being in on it and hiding all this from the Inquisition. But if he had been in on it then why do the Qunari attack him on sight? Why is he okay with killing fellow Qunari? Why does he help us foil Dragon's Breath? Why didn't he attack us at the Forgotten Temple?

 

Even if we've seen evidence that they seem to be doing just that, we can trust him when he says he knows or has heard absolutely nothing! Especially not a man who's name under the Qun actually translates as "Liar", we can deffo count on him to be on the level with us.

I trust him to be Qunari. His actions show him killing those working for Viddasala and also foiling her plot. They also attack him and try to kill him. So that confirms he wasn't on their side. He wasn't in on it.

[robertthebard]

And what if they didn't know anything about Viddasala's actions, like the Triumvirate letter states? How would they pass this on to Hissrad?

You know, this is the one time when that letter does come in handy, they must have been aware, or they wouldn't have sent the letter to Josephine either. So the standard procedure would be what, ignore it? Not take advantage of a high placed agent? They'd have just said "Sorry, we don't know what you're talking about, so it can't be happening."? I know, now that this letter actually represents something you'd just as soon ignore, that they were aware of her actions, we have to pretend like the evidence is too vague to count for anything?

[Illegitimus]

Let's be honest here Sifr. A plan in which the Triumvirate appointed only the Viddasala to attempt an important assassination operation so that they could plausibly deny it later if it failed, is just plain stupid. If they are serious about invasion, they will put more agents on it to make sure it is successful. 

 

 

That's ridiculous.  Throwing more agents in doesn't increase the success chance of a covert operation.  

[AlanC9]

Pretty sure IB is a high ranking enough spy that his information network doesn't wholly depend on the Vidassala's, assuming he's even her direct subordinate. If he has doubts about her legitimacy, I'm certain he can ask and get an answer from elsewhere.

Why would he have doubts? If a Qun-loyal IB expresses doubts, he's lying.

I'm also a little confused by "his information network." What sort of organizational structure are you thinking of? I see that a bunch of people are assuming multiple communication channels to IB, but I don't see the reason for the assumption.

[KaiserShep]

BY THE CREATORS, STOP THE MADNESS ALREADY.

If a mod does come in to put the thread to a close, I hope he or she says VINEK KATHAS!

[Sifr]

That is a special circumstance that is not related to any mission. It is a matter of personal identity. The Qunari belief is that a soldier's soul is his weapon. Losing it makes them soulless, and thus worthy of death if they try to reenter Par Vollen. That isn't Tal-Vashoth however, that is basically bas, or less than bas. You're basically like some wild creature. A rodent perhaps. That is why Sten lost control when he was told his sword was gone.

 

Sten tells us that without Asala, he would be considered soulless and a deserter, two terms that we often hear applied to those declared Tal-Vashoth. Whether he threw the sword from his hand or it was taken from him while he was unconscious, the point is that the Qun would have demanded his death because of this failure.

 

It's why he doesn't fight back when they take him into custody, as well as agrees to join us on what is apparently a suicide mission ("It seems as likely to bring about my death as remaining here") is because he's fully aware that he's a dead man walking in the eyes of his people.

 

Regaining Asala however allowed him to return home, undo his mistake and complete his mission, thus the Qun no longer required his death as penance.

 

Nor was he declared Tal-Vashoth.

 

No, but to return without Asala would have declared him as Tal-Vashoth, hence why he couldn't return without it.
 

Being slain on sight isn't the same as being declared Tal-Vashoth though.

 

DA2 suggests that Tal-Vashoth are often slain on sight by the Qunari - which his why they are so eager to avoid them - so it follows that the reason Sten would not be able to return to Par Vollen is because they would see Sten as Tal-Vashoth without Asala in hand.
 

We know of one certain type of failure, but this has nothing to do with Viddasala. The closest example is Tallis. She completely failed her mission, and yet she was only demoted.

 

According to WOT Vol 2, Tallis didn't fail her mission, but was demoted because she completed it in a manner that the Qunari did not approve of.

 

It has nothing to do with what Hissrad would tell them. Leliana was working with Hissrad and inspecting everything he sent. Josephine would also confirm that Hissrad's letters were real and were being sent. Otherwise she has no basis to write that in her letter to the Triumvirate.

 

Because reverse double-agents who's correspondence are being screened, don't have secondary communication lines in place to avoid tipping off the people that know he's a Qunari spy, that he's not just sending back the minimal reports to keep his job, but is now actually engaging in espionage for the Qunari against them?

 

It's kind of like the situation in Harry Potter... where Snape appears to be working for Dumbledore, but looks like he's loyal to Voldemort while pretending to work for Dumbledore, which is ultimately revealed to be a clever con to throw people off that he really was working for Dumbledore the entire time.

 

Bull used the fact that we knew he was a spy and a bit lackadaisical about doing the job, to fool us into not paying attention to him, so we'd not notice he actually was doing more serious spy work for the Qunari.

 

Furthermore, we know there are other Qunari spies in the Inquisition that Solas mentions, ones that Leliana it seems hasn't ferreted out yet. Bull probably was able to get the information out via them, rather than the "official" channels he was using.

 

I can understand the concept of Hissrad being in on it and hiding all this from the Inquisition. But if he had been in on it then why do the Qunari attack him on sight? Why is he okay with killing fellow Qunari? Why does he help us foil Dragon's Breath? Why didn't he attack us at the Forgotten Temple?

 

Because they are ordered to attack the Inquisition forces, including him. It'd be more suspicious if they didn't attack him, because it'd blow his cover completely if they purposely avoided going after him. Furthermore, that's probably the reason he doesn't turn on us until directly ordered to, because his orders were to keep his cover intact as long as possible.

 

I trust him to be Qunari. His actions show him killing those working for Viddasala and also foiling her plot. They also attack him and try to kill him. So that confirms he wasn't on their side. He wasn't in on it.

 

Again, Bull was likely ordered to maintain his cover as long as needed. It's not like we've not seen Qunari leaders order people to their deaths in service of the greater mission, so this explains why they'd let him kill their own people, as well as sacrifice him to try to stop the Inquisitor getting to the dragon.

[thats1evildude]

^Josephine's letter confirms that Hissrad tried to contact his direct superiors, to no avail.

 

Oh dear God, it doesn't confirm that AT ALL. The letter shows that Josephine WAS able to get in touch with the Triuumverate and they had even drafted a reply. Communication was occuring, though the Triuumverate's response may have been intercepted by the Viddasala, or perhaps they gave her a copy. It suggests NOTHING about Iron Bull trying to contact his superiors.

 

Honestly, Dai Grepher, your mental gymnastics astound me.

 

No you wouldn't. First off, killing every leader and their generals? Impossible. Nothing says they will all be gathered around mysterious barrels at the same time. And the attacks would need to happen at the same time.

 

You understand that you don't need the people right next to the explosives, yes? If you bring down a palace, most of the people inside will be killed.

 

And the whole point of the eluvian network is that they will be able to co-ordinate a massive attack in this fashion.

[Reznore57]

I wouldn't put too much thoughts into that letter because...errr...there's no way there was enough time for the Triumvirate to get the letter from Josi , and then  send back a letter to Thedas.

 

If time mattered ,and let's face it it probably doesn't ...the most likely explanation would be the Vidassala catched the Inquisition courrier before he/she or some random pigeon manage to get far.

And she was trying to write a fake letter to calm down the Inquisition .

 

But well we can rebuild bridges , forts ,travel all over Southern Thedas in a year , so I suppose a message from Southern Thedas can reach Par Vollen in a day .

[Tatar Foras]

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