1580 réponses à ce sujet

[AlanC9]

I wouldn't put too much thoughts into that letter because...errr...there's no way there was enough time for the Triumvirate to get the letter from Josi , and then  send back a letter to Thedas.

If we could just ignore stuff in the game when we can't figure out how it could make sense, the ME3 arguments would have been a lot different.

[Almostfaceman]

If we could just ignore stuff in the game when we can't figure out how it could make sense, the ME3 arguments would have been a lot different.

 

Yet that's exactly what we do in every Bioware game. Logistics ain't their strong point. But, please try and make that argument. 

 

Anyway, going back to your (unexplained) confusion about Iron Bull and his communications with his Qunari bosses. It's not explained. But it happens. We have multiple War Table missions based on this connection, yet how many people and how many networks are involved in this connection are never explained in detail. 

 

Ever. 

 

So what's the impression Bioware wants to leave with us as we witness this? That Iron Bull is very well connected with his Qunari bosses. Whomever they are, how ever many there are. 

 

Which is never explained. But it is really, really effective. It does exactly what it needs to do whenever the game needs it to be done. 

 

Which is all Bioware logistics, in a nut shell. 

[Almostfaceman]

Why would he have doubts? If a Qun-loyal IB expresses doubts, he's lying.

I'm also a little confused by "his information network." What sort of organizational structure are you thinking of? I see that a bunch of people are assuming multiple communication channels to IB, but I don't see the reason for the assumption.

 

So here's part of the OP:

 

We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it. And in that case, the only reasonable outcome was that if you hadn't gotten Iron Bull out of the Qun, it made no sense for him to do anything but turn on you. It's one of those things where, you know, I don't know if we would have done things differently if we had known 'Oh we definitely want to have the Qunari in the Trespasser DLC, and what does that do for Iron Bull?', if we had known that years and years ahead of time, if we would have changed Iron Bull's plot somewhere, had him start as a Tal'Vashoth, or something like that, but I really like that choice. I love that we gave you a choice, and that it didn't immediately have a white hat and a black hat on it. And that it was a choice that had teeth; I love those, because it was really interesting after Trespasser shipped, watching the reaction to those. Because there were many people who were surprised and very unhappy and said 'This shouldn't have happened, even though I made Bull loyal to the Qun, he still should have respected me and not turned on me,' and there were a few people who would say that, but every time someone said that, everyone else would turn and look at them and go 'What did you think was going to happen? You did a plot and told this guy specifically to be loyal to the Qun, so yeah, when the Qunari come... You did a plot that told him to stay on their side,'

 

Does Weekes bother to explain Iron Bull's communication or spy network? Nope. A Qun-loyal Iron Bull knows the Qunari operation in Trespasser is not a "rogue faction" or "an offshoot." The same way Iron Bull is able to give us multiple Qunari-related missions through the War Table. The same way Iron Bull gets his mission with the Chargers and working with the Qunari. The game just tells us Iron Bull is in communication with his Qunari bosses and we take it at face value even though we don't see the spies or talk to his bosses. 

 

Do we need to know the details about Iron Bull's communication or spy network? Nope. Because Weekes just told us that Qun-loyal Iron Bull knows the Qunari operation in Trespasser is not a "rogue faction" or "an offshoot." We also don't need these details when Iron Bull gives us War Table missions from the Qunari and we don't need the details when Iron Bull gets his mission and works with Gatt, who basically appears out of nowhere, then returns to nowhere. We don't know who Gatt reports to, how he's involved with any of Iron Bull's communication or spy networks. We don't know who Gatt has to be a character witness to when he defends Iron Bull to Ben-Hassrath... there's just no details about any of this stuff. Because it doesn't matter. Bioware logistics. The Qunari want Iron Bull to do X. How do we know the want Iron Bull to do X? Because Bioware says they do. 

 

So now that Weekes has cleared that up for us, what are you confused about? People's assumptions about Iron Bull's connection to his Qunari bosses? Why does it matter?

[AlanC9]

Yet that's exactly what we do in every Bioware game. Logistics ain't their strong point. But, please try and make that argument. 

That we should start disbelieving the stuff we actually see in-game? Pass. The IT guys are bad enough without adding to the nonsense.
 

Anyway, going back to your (unexplained) confusion about Iron Bull and his communications with his Qunari bosses. It's not explained. But it happens. We have multiple War Table missions based on this connection, yet how many people and how many networks are involved in this connection are never explained in detail. 
 
Ever. 

Exactly so. But that was my point; we can't use those connections as proof of anything when we have no idea how they worked.

[Almostfaceman]

That we should start disbelieving the stuff we actually see in-game? Pass. The IT guys are bad enough without adding to the nonsense.
 

Exactly so. But that was my point; we can't use those connections as proof of anything when we have no idea how they worked.

 

Of course we can use them as proof of something. The low-detail connections are used to tell the audience why Iron Bull and the Qunari are working together. That's what they're proof of. We don't need the details. 

 

Nobody said we had to disbelieve anything in-game. Strawman. 

 

What we see in game is put into the context of the Weekes statement in the OP. Which you keep ignoring me bringing up. But I'll keep bringing it up, to highlight you're ignoring the context. You haven't even addressed it, except to say you're confused. But you won't even say what you're confused about. 

 

Seems to me you're deliberately ignoring the context of the OP so you can avoid talking about the OP in favor of just talking about the letters. 

 

If you want to just talk about the letters, start your own thread. The topic of this thread is the Weekes statement and how that applies to Trespasser. 

[In Exile]

She was curious? Why would she care what the Triumvirate sent to the Inquisition? Why wouldn't they just send her a letter telling her what they wrote in their reply to Josephine?

 

Is this a serious question? If you're going to say someone's a rogue agent, you're not going to write them a Dear John letter, because the mere fact you could even contact them is incontrovertible proof they were wholly authorized to carry out the operation you deny authorizing them to carry out.

 

As for why she would want the letter, again, is this a serious question? "Am I getting disavowed for being found out" is the reason.  

[LOLandStuff]

These are the same people whose first reaction to anyone who screws up is to never talk and simply forget about it. They're quick to brush it under the rug.

They'll just fabricate some lame story denying everything, since you're nothing to them and they don't own you any decent explanation other than "It wasn't us."

They'll nod to each other in contentment only if it's a success, and make their move.

 

This argument is like that one with that one guy who kept insisting Hawke killed Corypheus. All that's missing are neon signs pointing to the obvious.

[GoldenGail3]

 
This argument is like that one with that one guy who kept insisting Hawke killed Corypheus. All that's missing are neon signs pointing to the obvious.

And then there's the fact the Warden would be possessed by Cory if they were in DA2...

[Giantdeathrobot]

Why would he have doubts? If a Qun-loyal IB expresses doubts, he's lying.

I'm also a little confused by "his information network." What sort of organizational structure are you thinking of? I see that a bunch of people are assuming multiple communication channels to IB, but I don't see the reason for the assumption.

 

It's an assumption that IB can communicate with superiors other than the Vidassala, sure, but it's also an assumption that she is his direct superior and controls all the information he knows. The fact that he obeys her only means that she is of a higher rank. Plus, her division handles magics and artifacts, which doesn't completely mesh with IB's knowledge and mission to infiltrate the Inquisition.

 

As for having multiple channels, I'm not saying IB is a Skype friend with the entire Ben-Hassrath all the time, but if the organisation is well constructed their important field agents (and IB defnitely is one) would ideally be able to communicate with more than one superior, in case of emergency. I admit that's not proven in the game, but the Ben-Hassrath seem so good at what they do , and Qunari are so afraid of being branded Tal-Vashoth, that it seems like a reasonable assumption on my part.

[robertthebard]

That we should start disbelieving the stuff we actually see in-game? Pass. The IT guys are bad enough without adding to the nonsense.
 

Exactly so. But that was my point; we can't use those connections as proof of anything when we have no idea how they worked.

Actually, we can, because we know that they worked. We didn't receive a messenger with a message for IB on his loyalty mission, he did. We didn't receive messages telling us that there were things the Qunari wanted to give us on the War Table, he did. IB isn't working for the Inquisition in a vacuum. He's getting and sending reports, and those reports aren't coming, apparently, from a single source, since they're spread out all over the maps. We know this network exists because we've seen it working. Every time there's a new War Table mission involving the Qunari, that network was working. When we get his loyalty mission, we know it's working because he got the message about what was going on, not us. The Qunari didn't approach us with an alliance, directly, they went through IB. This means, quite simply, that he has a network in place to get and send messages/reports from/to his superiors, no matter who they are.

[BansheeOwnage]

That we should start disbelieving the stuff we actually see in-game? Pass. The IT guys are bad enough without adding to the nonsense.

You make Banshee sad.

- BANSHEE DISAPPROVES

[Dai Grepher]

You know, this is the one time when that letter does come in handy, they must have been aware, or they wouldn't have sent the letter to Josephine either. So the standard procedure would be what, ignore it? Not take advantage of a high placed agent? They'd have just said "Sorry, we don't know what you're talking about, so it can't be happening."? I know, now that this letter actually represents something you'd just as soon ignore, that they were aware of her actions, we have to pretend like the evidence is too vague to count for anything?

You're evading the question I asked. How would the Ben-Hassrath working for Viddasala contact Hissrad to warn him that she was crazy if they were under the deception that Viddasala's actions were authorized? Also, what of Jerran, who outright exposed her? See, you can't answer any of this.

Instead you post a baseless claim, they must have been aware of Viddasala's actions, or else they wouldn't have replied to Josephine's letter to them? How do you figure that? If they receive a letter from the Inquisition detailing Viddasala's actions (which they did), and they are unaware of it, of course they will respond that they were unaware of her actions. Josephine made it clear that failure to reply would mean that the actions would be interpreted as an act of war. So of course they replied, and Viddasala intercepted it and balled up the reply. She knew what it said. She knew failure to reply would be interpreted as an act of war. She knew not passing it on would ready the South for war. Yet Viddasala did not care. Starting a war was her only goal.

What you overlook here is that they did try to reply to Josephine and assure the Inquisition that Par Vollen had taken no action against the South. They sent this reply to Josephine. Viddasala, whom you believe was authorized, intercepted the letter and discarded it. So it's as if the Triumvirate never replied. How does that help Par Vollen? How does that follow the Triumvirate's intention? Your attempt to deflect doesn't make sense.

That's ridiculous. Throwing more agents in doesn't increase the success chance of a covert operation.

Of course it would. Not claiming it would ensure its success, but it would increase the chance of success. This is because the agents would be focused on their own tasks. That's better than having one agent divide her attention across all aspects of the mission. Part of the reason why Viddasala failed is because her attention was pulled in too many directions. She wasn't there to oversee all things at all times. Having multiple agents in charge of each aspect would have allowed for better oversight and direction. Yet Viddasala didn't even promote people within her own group to oversee anything.

Why would he have doubts? If a Qun-loyal IB expresses doubts, he's lying.

Exactly. Anything he says against Viddasala will just be dismissed as him trying to deceive the Inquisitor. He does in fact express doubts. He states that he expects Viddasala to be smashing any eluvian she finds, not using them. The other side dismisses this as him pretending not to know anything about the plan.

I'm also a little confused by "his information network." What sort of organizational structure are you thinking of? I see that a bunch of people are assuming multiple communication channels to IB, but I don't see the reason for the assumption.

Right. As far as we know, he had one contact directly above him. Josephine's letter refers to superiors, but that could mean the person above Hissrad's superior. As for his other nameless contacts, they may have been killed or compromised by Viddasala. If Hissrad is with the Inquisition, she would have accounted for this.

Basically, the other side is trying to make up a reason why Hissrad was in on it. They imagine this large spy network all around him that Viddasala could not have possibly had control over, and because this network exists in their minds, it means Hissrad was in on the plan because otherwise someone from the network would have tipped him off to Viddasala's plans. This is ignoring the fact that Jerran did exactly this.

Sten tells us that without Asala, he would be considered soulless and a deserter, two terms that we often hear applied to those declared Tal-Vashoth. Whether he threw the sword from his hand or it was taken from him while he was unconscious, the point is that the Qun would have demanded his death because of this failure.

But Tal-Vashoth are described as those who have abandoned or betrayed the Qun. It is also said that they are beyond saving. Yet if Sten manages to recover his sword, he is accepted back in to Par Vollen. Sten's case involves him still having his purpose or not. Without his blade, made only for him, he has lost his purpose. That is why he will be killed if seen returning to Par Vollen. This might also be why the Arishok is denied Par Vollen until he recovers the Tome of Koslun. Though he can return without it, but we only hear from Varric that he was court-martialed. We don't know what else was done with him.

It's why he doesn't fight back when they take him into custody, as well as agrees to join us on what is apparently a suicide mission ("It seems as likely to bring about my death as remaining here") is because he's fully aware that he's a dead man walking in the eyes of his people.

Correct. But it isn't because of a mission failure. His mission was to find an answer to the Arishok's question. Even if he had the answer, without his sword he would be cut down.

Regaining Asala however allowed him to return home, undo his mistake and complete his mission, thus the Qun no longer required his death as penance.

Tal-Vashoth are given no such pardon. So the example doesn't fit. Going back to the original point, Viddasala may have failed in her alleged mission to assassinate the heads of the South, but this failure would not have meant her execution. Those on Seheron have been failing to topple Tevinter for years, and this includes the Arishok. If not succeeding in killing an enemy is worthy of death, then the Qunari would have few soldiers.

No, but to return without Asala would have declared him as Tal-Vashoth, hence why he couldn't return without it.

Source? I know of no text or quote indicating that he would be declared Tal-Vashoth for losing his sword.

DA2 suggests that Tal-Vashoth are often slain on sight by the Qunari - which his why they are so eager to avoid them - so it follows that the reason Sten would not be able to return to Par Vollen is because they would see Sten as Tal-Vashoth without Asala in hand.

You're jumping to that conclusion. Of course Tal-Vashoth are slain on sight, that doesn't mean all who are slain on sight are Tal-Vashoth.

According to WOT Vol 2, Tallis didn't fail her mission, but was demoted because she completed it in a manner that the Qunari did not approve of.

No, she utterly failed it. She was supposed to complete it without being seen. Instead she allowed herself to be seen by engaging in an act that was not a demand of the Qun.

From the Wikia, which I realize could be inaccurate because the Wikia is a fan blog:

"She always completed those missions successfully, though never to the complete specifications of her superiors. They would have preferred the mission be abandoned rather than completed imperfectly."

If this is true, I would think the Triumvirate would want Dragon's Breath aborted at the first sign of trouble. Continued...

"Tallis finally pushed them over the edge during a mission to retrieve a Qunari artifact in the possession of Count Alphonse Valmont in Arlesans. During the heist, Tallis found human and elven children being kept as sex slaves and set them free, killing the Count and several of his guards in the process. This set off a diplomatic incident that almost led to war between the Qunari and Orlais. Tallis had failed to steal the object without leaving any trace as she had been ordered and she was therefore demoted to the rank of 'Athlok' - a laborer. She was assigned as a kitchen-hand on a boat docked in Kirkwall, during the Arishok's stay in Kirkwall. She was offered a chance to redeem herself two years later."

So she absolutely failed her mission and almost caused a war between Orlais and Par Vollen, which also might have violated the Llomeryn Accords and brought the entire South to side against the Qunari. Yet she was only demoted, and then given another chance years later.

So why would Viddasala be punished for mere failure if the operation was authorized?

[Dai Grepher]

Because reverse double-agents who's correspondence are being screened, don't have secondary communication lines in place to avoid tipping off the people that know he's a Qunari spy, that he's not just sending back the minimal reports to keep his job, but is now actually engaging in espionage for the Qunari against them?

No, the point is that Leliana and Josephine knew Hissrad was sending letters to his superiors explaining the situation and requesting a response. The fact they got no reply back caused Josephine to write what she did to the Triumvirate.

So then why isn't he at least receiving false messages back meant to deceive the Inquisition? Why is he receiving no reply that can be observed by the Inquisition? The only explanation is that Viddasala is intercepting his letters, but if this is all official, then she has no reason to block messages from or to Hissrad.

Also, what makes them think Hissrad could get a secret correspondence with Inquisition guards and scouts everywhere? And wouldn't a secret correspondence, if found, confirm that the operation was official? Why would they take that risk?

It's kind of like the situation in Harry Potter... where Snape appears to be working for Dumbledore, but looks like he's loyal to Voldemort while pretending to work for Dumbledore, which is ultimately revealed to be a clever con to throw people off that he really was working for Dumbledore the entire time.

Interesting comparison. Of course Hissrad works for the Ben-Hassrath, we all know that. However, going back to your comparison, didn't Snape have some kind of contract with Malfoy's mother that he would protect her son or else the contract spell would kill him? I think Hissrad was the same way in essence. He was loyal to the Triumvirate, not Viddasala, but the fact that she was using real Qunari meant that he was bound by the Qun not to knowingly kill them. Doing so would have made him Tal-Vashoth, at least in his mind it would have. So he had no choice but to defend those he swore to protect.

Bull used the fact that we knew he was a spy and a bit lackadaisical about doing the job, to fool us into not paying attention to him, so we'd not notice he actually was doing more serious spy work for the Qunari.

Which was what exactly? He knew for a fact that we didn't know who the agent of Fen'Harel was. Yet Viddasala thought we did. If Hissrad were seriously spying for the Qunari, and her by extension since this is allegedly an official operation, then why did she think we worked for the agent of Fen'Harel?

Furthermore, we know there are other Qunari spies in the Inquisition that Solas mentions, ones that Leliana it seems hasn't ferreted out yet. Bull probably was able to get the information out via them, rather than the "official" channels he was using.

Fine, but to what end though? It never did them any good. There was no ambush waiting for us at the Darvaarad, for example. No warning that, "Hey, the Inquisitor got the keystone and pass phrase from the spirit in the Shattered Library. Better have gaatlok by the mirror ready to go off as soon as he steps through." Instead the Qunari are caught completely by surprise. This is the case in each level. We found the note to the servant to use the mirror marked by a bookcase. Why didn't Hissrad warn them that we had discovered this?

Because they are ordered to attack the Inquisition forces, including him. It'd be more suspicious if they didn't attack him, because it'd blow his cover completely if they purposely avoided going after him. Furthermore, that's probably the reason he doesn't turn on us until directly ordered to, because his orders were to keep his cover intact as long as possible.

You don't see the glaring problems with this? It means Hissrad would be knowingly killing fellow Qunari and foiling the very plan that the Triumvirate allegedly wants to be a success. It also means he isn't ordered to turn until after the plan is foiled, thus eliminating the Triumvirate's best chance of denying involvement.

Wouldn't a better strategy have been to let Hissrad lure us into the Forgotten Temple and have all of the Qunari act as allies? Perhaps even have the Viddasala show up and pretend that they are only on a mission to destroy dangerous elvhen magic, when they were attacked by elvhen spirits. Then while the party is distracted in the temple, here come legions of antaam warriors to close off all chances of escape, then Hissrad turns on us, and it's three against three-hundred.

Again, Bull was likely ordered to maintain his cover as long as needed. It's not like we've not seen Qunari leaders order people to their deaths in service of the greater mission, so this explains why they'd let him kill their own people, as well as sacrifice him to try to stop the Inquisitor getting to the dragon.

I'm not sure they've ordered Qunari to die exactly. The closest is the Arishok ordering guards to defend the saaqamek recipe. Just enough to impart a sense of value to it. So did he order them to die, or did he order them to defend, and just suspect they would fail to defend it?

But lets assume Qunari can be ordered to die for the mission, and not the usual sacrifice a few to save the lives of many either, lets assume they allowed Hissrad to kill all those Qunari in Trespasser for the sake of a chance at killing southern heads of state. So how did their deaths accomplish this mission exactly? If anything, it made it less likely to succeed. And if his true mission was to maintain cover and continue being a spy for the Triumvirate, then why did he obey Viddasala's order to discard his role after Dragon's Breath was already foiled?

The dragon was of no importance by then. All the southern courts had been warned of the danger. There was no chance of getting gaatlok anywhere near any of them by that point.

Oh dear God, it doesn't confirm that AT ALL. The letter shows that Josephine WAS able to get in touch with the Triuumverate and they had even drafted a reply. Communication was occuring, though the Triuumverate's response may have been intercepted by the Viddasala, or perhaps they gave her a copy. It suggests NOTHING about Iron Bull trying to contact his superiors.

Honestly, Dai Grepher, your mental gymnastics astound me.

Spoiler

Letters and Replies

A letter with an Inquisition seal sits half buried in a pile of memos:

To the Honorable Salasari, Triumvirate of the Qun:

On behalf of the Inquisition, I must humbly inquire as to the hostile actions of your agents in Halamshiral. The Iron Bull has consulted his immediate superiors and contacts within the Ben-Hassrath to no avail. It was our understanding that the Inquisition and the Qunari nation were allies. Why, then, are our people being attacked by Ben-Hassrath agents, and why have we found Qunari gaatlok hidden around the Exalted Council? If your illustrious personages can offer an explanation, we would be glad to hear it. If not, we must consider these to be acts of war.

Respectfully,
Ambassador Josephine Montilyet

Several incomprehensible messages in Qunlat follw. A letter written in [sic]common in elegant script has been torn open and crumpled into a ball, but the writing is still legible:

To Ambassador Josephine Montilyet of the Inquisition,

The Salasari have no knowledge of any operations occurring in Halamshiral, and are investigating your claims of gaatlok being used in the South. We regret that we are unable to divulge any information regarding current Ben-Hassrath activities at this time, but we hasten to assure you that our partnership with the Inquisition is one we value highly.

"The Iron Bull has consulted his immediate superiors and contacts within the Ben-Hassrath to no avail."

Proof that Hissrad could not get a letter up the chain of command. Josephine managed to get her letter to the Triumvirate because she went through different channels, obviously, and Viddasala didn't expect that, nor did she have a way to prevent it. But she was able to intercept the reply letter, which the Triumvirate sent through the regular channels in the Ben-Hassrath.

You understand that you don't need the people right next to the explosives, yes? If you bring down a palace, most of the people inside will be killed.

If? Most? These are uncertainties. If the goal is to kill the leaders, then the gaatlok must be placed close to the leaders to have the best chance possible. There is no guarantee that the explosion will collapse the whole structure. There is no guarantee that the leaders will be inside the structures at the proper time.

And the whole point of the eluvian network is that they will be able to co-ordinate a massive attack in this fashion.

Ignoring the fact that the eluvians are unreliable, more so after Solas' interference, there aren't enough of them in the proper locations to launch an invasion or send information through. Ferelden has only two known eluvians, one in Soldier's Peak, and one in the Dragonbone Wastes. There is also one in Skyhold, which is technically Ferelden. Unless Morrigan took it with her when she left.

[Dai Grepher]

I wouldn't put too much thoughts into that letter because...errr...there's no way there was enough time for the Triumvirate to get the letter from Josi , and then send back a letter to Thedas.

The letter wouldn't have to reach Thedas. It would only have to reach the first person that Viddasala would be able to intercept the letter from. The Darvaarad is on an island, which suggests it is near Par Vollen or Seheron. In which case it wouldn't take long for her to receive it. So the only time needed here is that which the letter needed to get from Josephine to the Triumvirate.

If time mattered ,and let's face it it probably doesn't ...the most likely explanation would be the Vidassala catched the Inquisition courrier before he/she or some random pigeon manage to get far.
And she was trying to write a fake letter to calm down the Inquisition .

This is ruled out by the following in-game note regarding the style of the reply letter.

Several incomprehensible messages in Qunlat follw. A letter written in [sic]common in elegant script has been torn open and crumpled into a ball, but the writing is still legible:

I think this is a clue that further proves that the operation was not sanctioned. The text says the reply letter is written "in common in elegant script". This is obviously an error on BioWare's part. It seems they first wrote "in common script", then wrote "in elegant" before "script" and simply forgot to delete "in common".

So they first had the Triumvirate's letter being written in common script, possibly because they wanted it to look like Viddasala was forging a reply letter. Or maybe they meant to write that the language was common but the handwriting was elegant. In any case, they changed this to having it in elegant script. They also wrote that the reply letter was torn open. This means Viddasala couldn't have forged it.

First, the script was elegant. Viddasala's handwriting in the common tongue was blocky yet neat, as indicated in the letter about the ataashi found shortly before this. Second, the letter was torn open from its envelope. Which means Viddasala intercepted the envelope and opened it. Third, the letter itself was balled up. If Viddasala had forged it and then changed her mind about sending it, she wouldn't have put it in an envelope, or if she had, she would have balled up the envelope with the letter still inside.

Also, making it look like she intercepted it makes no sense because she did not expect the Inquisitor to make it to the Darvaarad, nor did she know the Inquisitor would find it even if he made it there.

But well we can rebuild bridges , forts ,travel all over Southern Thedas in a year , so I suppose a message from Southern Thedas can reach Par Vollen in a day .

Unless Josephine sent it before that. Perhaps when the gaatlok barrel was first found. This would be before the Inquisitor left for the Vir Dirthara.

They never say how many days pass between sections. But yes, BioWare seems to hand-wave travel time.

[Rel Fexive]

OH GOD IT IS STILL GOING ON FOR FRELL'S SAKE 

[BansheeOwnage]

I think this is a clue that further proves that the operation was not sanctioned. The text says the reply letter is written "in common in elegant script". This is obviously an error on BioWare's part. It seems they first wrote "in common script", then wrote "in elegant" before "script" and simply forgot to delete "in common".

So they first had the Triumvirate's letter being written in common script, possibly because they wanted it to look like Viddasala was forging a reply letter. Or maybe they meant to write that the language was common but the handwriting was elegant. In any case, they changed this to having it in elegant script. They also wrote that the reply letter was torn open. This means Viddasala couldn't have forged it.

I'm pretty sure it's not a mistake or revision, and Bioware simply meant that it was written elegantly in The Common Tongue. Their sentence is a bit odd in structure, but I think that was the intent.

[Dai Grepher]

Yet that's exactly what we do in every Bioware game. Logistics ain't their strong point. But, please try and make that argument.

Our side prefers to acknowledge the facts, not dismiss them or add fanfiction to twist the situation to fit our beliefs.

Anyway, going back to your (unexplained) confusion about Iron Bull and his communications with his Qunari bosses. It's not explained. But it happens. We have multiple War Table missions based on this connection, yet how many people and how many networks are involved in this connection are never explained in detail.

Which means its possible that it is not a complex network, but rather it could just be a few contacts with a short list of superior officers. In which case it would be easy for Viddasala to infiltrate it and intercept messages.

So what's the impression Bioware wants to leave with us as we witness this? That Iron Bull is very well connected with his Qunari bosses. Whomever they are, how ever many there are.

That was when it was the Ben-Hassrath functioning as it was supposed to. In this scenario we have the possibility that Viddasala has corrupted that network of spies with her own viddathari and is intercepting messages.

Which is never explained. But it is really, really effective. It does exactly what it needs to do whenever the game needs it to be done.

Again, this is a different case, because it is now Qunari vs. Qunari. And Josephine's letter confirms that Hissrad received no reply from his superiors or his contacts.

Does Weekes bother to explain Iron Bull's communication or spy network? Nope. A Qun-loyal Iron Bull knows the Qunari operation in Trespasser is not a "rogue faction" or "an offshoot." The same way Iron Bull is able to give us multiple Qunari-related missions through the War Table.

Speculation. He thought they were a rogue group the whole way up until the Darvaarad when he realized they were real Qunari. Weekes says nothing about Hissrad's rationale, so it isn't known that Hissrad thought it was an authorized operation. It's possible he simply realized these were real Qunari regardless if the mission was authorized or not, and the Qun demands he side with fellow Qunari no matter the circumstance. It's the same case in his personal quest. He either sides with his fellow Qunari or else he is Tal-Vashoth. No other details matter.

The same way Iron Bull gets his mission with the Chargers and working with the Qunari. The game just tells us Iron Bull is in communication with his Qunari bosses and we take it at face value even though we don't see the spies or talk to his bosses.

But AlenC9's point is that you don't know how insulated Hissrad's contacts are against Viddasala infiltrating them so she can intercept messages.

Do we need to know the details about Iron Bull's communication or spy network? Nope. Because Weekes just told us that Qun-loyal Iron Bull knows the Qunari operation in Trespasser is not a "rogue faction" or "an offshoot."

But he didn't say he knew that based on information from his spy network. So your claim has no basis. Weekes also didn't say that Hissrad knew it wasn't a rogue group. He didn't say anything about Hissrad's thought process on this.

We also don't need these details when Iron Bull gives us War Table missions from the Qunari and we don't need the details when Iron Bull gets his mission and works with Gatt, who basically appears out of nowhere, then returns to nowhere. We don't know who Gatt reports to, how he's involved with any of Iron Bull's communication or spy networks. We don't know who Gatt has to be a character witness to when he defends Iron Bull to Ben-Hassrath... there's just no details about any of this stuff. Because it doesn't matter. Bioware logistics. The Qunari want Iron Bull to do X. How do we know the want Iron Bull to do X? Because Bioware says they do.

And yet you assume this spy network exists in the same capacity as two years before, and that it is immune to betrayal and corruption.

So now that Weekes has cleared that up for us, what are you confused about? People's assumptions about Iron Bull's connection to his Qunari bosses? Why does it matter?

Because it was your side's claim that he knew about the operation through his superiors and contacts. How do you know it wasn't Viddasala manipulating those contacts or feeding them false information?

Of course we can use them as proof of something. The low-detail connections are used to tell the audience why Iron Bull and the Qunari are working together. That's what they're proof of. We don't need the details.

Well then I don't need proof of my claim that this spy network consisted of only one person above Hisssrad who was trusted to deliver his letters directly to his superiors and other contacts, and this one person was intercepted by Viddasala and re-educated.

[Dai Grepher]

Nobody said we had to disbelieve anything in-game. Strawman.

Yes, you said that the reply letter from the Triumvirate was not to be believed.

What we see in game is put into the context of the Weekes statement in the OP.

A context you purposely misinterpret.

Which you keep ignoring me bringing up. But I'll keep bringing it up, to highlight you're ignoring the context.

We're ignoring your opinion of what it says. Weekes never said the operation was authorized, just that real Qunari were involved in it.

Is this a serious question? If you're going to say someone's a rogue agent, you're not going to write them a Dear John letter, because the mere fact you could even contact them is incontrovertible proof they were wholly authorized to carry out the operation you deny authorizing them to carry out.

That's assuming the Inquisition can see the letter at any point between it leaving the Triumvirate and Viddasala receiving it, which they couldn't. That leaves the only possibility for discovery being Viddasala herself. In this case, the message can be written entirely in Qunlat, and with encryption as well. It can also tell her to burn the letter after reading it. Yet Viddasala outright tells the Inquisitor that the Qunari would now take the way of blades, thus pointing the finger directly at the Triumvirate.

As for why she would want the letter, again, is this a serious question? "Am I getting disavowed for being found out" is the reason.

But why should she care if she was disavowed if the operation is supposed to be covert? This would only mean that the Triumvirate is trying to trick the Inquisition. That should be of no concern to Viddasala. And again, a simple letter to her would have sufficed. "Viddasala, the Inquisition has informed us that you have been engaging in unauthorized actions against the South. Cease all operations and return to Par Vollen immediately for questioning." This would be with the understanding that she was to carry out Dragon's Breath no matter what, and that such a letter was only a warning that the Inquisition had discovered the plot and that the Triumvirate was forced to disavow her.

These are the same people whose first reaction to anyone who screws up is to never talk and simply forget about it. They're quick to brush it under the rug.

When have they brushed anything under the rug? They responded to Josephine's letter immediately, and this angered Viddasala.

They'll just fabricate some lame story denying everything, since you're nothing to them and they don't own you any decent explanation other than "It wasn't us."

If we are owed nothing, then why did they reply at all? Why not simply not reply?

They'll nod to each other in contentment only if it's a success, and make their move.

That isn't what happened with Iron Bull if he allows the dreadnought to be destroyed. Remember, this is in spite of the mission being completed successfully.

It's an assumption that IB can communicate with superiors other than the Vidassala, sure, but it's also an assumption that she is his direct superior and controls all the information he knows.

We never made that assumption.

The fact that he obeys her only means that she is of a higher rank. Plus, her division handles magics and artifacts, which doesn't completely mesh with IB's knowledge and mission to infiltrate the Inquisition.

Which ought to tell you something. She doesn't command him. There must have been some other reason he turned on us.

[Dai Grepher]

As for having multiple channels, I'm not saying IB is a Skype friend with the entire Ben-Hassrath all the time, but if the organisation is well constructed their important field agents (and IB defnitely is one) would ideally be able to communicate with more than one superior, in case of emergency. I admit that's not proven in the game, but the Ben-Hassrath seem so good at what they do , and Qunari are so afraid of being branded Tal-Vashoth, that it seems like a reasonable assumption on my part.

And couldn't Hissrad have been afraid of being branded Tal-Vashoth if he disobeyed Viddasala? And couldn't any of Hissrad's contacts and superiors have been afraid of the same? The Qunari work well in the main game because its the Qunari vs. the Venatori. But in Trespasser it's one Ben-Hassrath priest vs. lesser Ben-Hassrath agents.

Actually, we can, because we know that they worked. We didn't receive a messenger with a message for IB on his loyalty mission, he did.

That's when he was on our side. In Trespasser, the advisors suspect the Qunari nation, and thus they would be watching for any reply letters. And if the operation were authorized, Hissrad would have received letters disavowing Viddasala in order to deceive the Inquisition. Instead, he receives nothing and gives us nothing. Which indicates that the letters are being intercepted. Sure enough, that's what was happening, as Josephine's and the Triumvirate's letters prove.

We didn't receive messages telling us that there were things the Qunari wanted to give us on the War Table, he did.

Because Hissrad was our contact. The point is that he is is located inside Halamshiral, and yet he is not receiving any letters as he was in the base game in Skyhold.

IB isn't working for the Inquisition in a vacuum. He's getting and sending reports, and those reports aren't coming, apparently, from a single source, since they're spread out all over the maps. We know this network exists because we've seen it working. Every time there's a new War Table mission involving the Qunari, that network was working. When we get his loyalty mission, we know it's working because he got the message about what was going on, not us. The Qunari didn't approach us with an alliance, directly, they went through IB. This means, quite simply, that he has a network in place to get and send messages/reports from/to his superiors, no matter who they are.

And that was when the network was working against the Venatori. In Trespasser the Viddasala could have infiltrated the spy network with her own viddathari, who would then intercept the letters for her to make sure the Triumvirate is not informed of her actions should Dragon's Breath be discovered.

I'm pretty sure it's not a mistake or revision, and Bioware simply meant that it was written elegantly in The Common Tongue. Their sentence is a bit odd in structure, but I think that was the intent.

Probably. In any case, Viddasala did not write this letter, as her handwriting was blocky, not elegant.

[Giantdeathrobot]

Which ought to tell you something. She doesn't command him. There must have been some other reason he turned on us.

 

That's not how hierarchy works. She is a superior in the same organization, he has to obey her. Especially in a society as structured as the Qun.

 

Look, you can look for ''other reasons'' he turned on us when the writers spelled it out clear as day if you want. But I'm really not sure why you would be doing that.

[thesuperdarkone2]

That's not how hierarchy works. She is a superior in the same organization, he has to obey her. Especially in a society as structured as the Qun.

Look, you can look for ''other reasons'' he turned on us when the writers spelled it out clear as day if you want. But I'm really not sure why you would be doing that.

Grepher also believes that if vidassala's plan succeeded, the Qunari would not invade and would disavow her in order to bring peace with the south.

That should tell you a lot

[Dabrikishaw]

Grepher also believes that if vidassala's plan succeeded, the Qunari would not invade and would disavow her in order to bring peace with the south.

That should tell you a lot

That explains a fair bit actually, yeah.

[Illegitimus]

So why would Viddasala be punished for mere failure if the operation was authorized?

 

 

Punished?  It's not about punishment.  It's about cutting their losses.  Viddasala is merely being expended to serve the function she has left, insulating the Qunari from blame.  

[Dai Grepher]

That's not how hierarchy works. She is a superior in the same organization, he has to obey her. Especially in a society as structured as the Qun.

Then why not obey the Triumvirate in that case? Their letter clearly states their wishes, and they are above her.

Look, you can look for ''other reasons'' he turned on us when the writers spelled it out clear as day if you want. But I'm really not sure why you would be doing that.

I'm not. You are getting it wrong. All Weekes said was that if you didn't get Bull out of the Qun, then nothing else made sense but for him to turn on you. That doesn't explain his thought process or his reasons. At most it implies that he turned because he realized the ones he was fighting that whole time were real Qunari, thus the Qun demands that he side with them regardless of whether they are authorized or not.

Grepher also believes that if vidassala's plan succeeded, the Qunari would not invade and would disavow her in order to bring peace with the south.

Not exactly. I wrote that they would not invade because invasion was impossible even if all heads of state in the South were killed, this is because Tevinter is too strong of a threat for the Qunari to divide their forces across the entire South. They would disavow her because she truly was not authorized, not out of any wish to bring peace to the South. If anything it would be in hopes that the South would not mount an attack against Par Vollen, though I'm sure the Qunari would prepare for one.

That explains a fair bit actually, yeah.

His claim about my position is not accurate. See above.

Punished?  It's not about punishment.  It's about cutting their losses.  Viddasala is merely being expended to serve the function she has left, insulating the Qunari from blame.

I thought the discussion was about punishment. If you think its only about cutting losses, then your position is even more illogical than that of your comrades. If she had the ability to return to Par Vollen, she should have taken it. She had no reason to throw her life away on Solas if her operation were truly authorized.

Also, she didn't insulate Par Vollen from blame. She outright implicated Par Vollen in the plot.

[Mistic]

She had no reason to throw her life away on Solas if her operation were truly authorized.

 

I don't think she thought she was throwing her life away. When she went after Solas, she still had a group of Qunari with her. She probably thought she could defeat him. Remember that not even the Inquisitor knew at the time that Solas had recovered his god-like powers, including being capable of turning people into stone with a simple gesture.

 

By the time we find her again she knows, but she's between a rock (Solas) and a hard place (the Inquisitor). And I'm not sure the chief of the Qunari's anti-magical forces will think of surrendering before the two most dangerous magical threats in the world, even if it costs her life.