I thought the discussion was about punishment. If you think its only about cutting losses, then your position is even more illogical than that of your comrades. If she had the ability to return to Par Vollen, she should have taken it. She had no reason to throw her life away on Solas if her operation were truly authorized.
I didn't say she had the ability to return to Par Vollen. They were going to execute her. It just didn't have anything to do with punishing her.
I don't think she thought she was throwing her life away. When she went after Solas, she still had a group of Qunari with her. She probably thought she could defeat him. Remember that not even the Inquisitor knew at the time that Solas had recovered his god-like powers, including being capable of turning people into stone with a simple gesture.
By the time we find her again she knows, but she's between a rock (Solas) and a hard place (the Inquisitor). And I'm not sure the chief of the Qunari's anti-magical forces will think of surrendering before the two most dangerous magical threats in the world, even if it costs her life.
Unless she knew the Triuumverate intended to throw her under the bus for her failure. Which she knew as a result of intercepting the correspondence with Josephine.No, I'm referring to after he turned her group to stone and told her to go back to her people and tell them to trouble him no further. She disregarded his act of mercy and tried to attack him anyway, knowing full well she would be petrified. Had she been authorized, she would have had no problem returning to Par Vollen to give a full report on Solas' abilities and the strengths of the Inquisition members.
No, I'm referring to after he turned her group to stone and told her to go back to her people and tell them to trouble him no further. She disregarded his act of mercy and tried to attack him anyway, knowing full well she would be petrified. Had she been authorized, she would have had no problem returning to Par Vollen to give a full report on Solas' abilities and the strengths of the Inquisition members.
Glad I already answered that in my second paragraph.
Then why not at least try to go after the easier target?
Who says the person who defeated a God-like Darkspawn Magister is the easier target? Us, players, because that's how we play it, but the Viddasala doesn't have to know it. Then add that she was very angry about the whole "total mission failure" (Dragon's Breath lost, Eluvians lost, her forces lost) and she probably wasn't in the best state of mind to calmly and coldly evaluate her options. She's the anti-magic fanatic, after all, more used to curbing magical threats under her thumb than suffering them.
(Of course, if pop culture existed in Thedas, I'd say she watched too many cartoons in which a hero overpowers or at least causes some harm to the villain in a final moment of anger and desperation 
).
Unless she knew the Triuumverate intended to throw her under the bus for her failure. Which she knew as a result of intercepting the correspondence with Josephine.
And Grepher, I know you want to equate the Viddasala's failure with Tallis' screw-up, but they're really not comparable. Tallis caused a diplomatic incident that nearly caused war between Orlais and the qunari, but she still achieved one of the parameters of her mission: recovering the artifact she was sent for.
The Viddasala's failure was total and absolute. She sank any possibility of an early victory for the qunari.
The Darvaarad was compromised, countless qunari were killed, and Solas took back control of the eluvians. Dragon's Breath was a wash.
Tallis got busted down to athlok for her partial failure. You know what was waiting for the Viddasala back in Par Vollen? If she was lucky, she'd face a public execution as the qunari's scapegoat, but in all likelihood, she'd be made a mindless labourer. The Qun waste nothing, after all.
What information could she possibly convey about Solas that would save her skin? "He's unstoppable; we are all doomed." Thanks for the report. We prepared a celebratory feast of qamek and 20-30 years' hard labour.
Who says the person who defeated a God-like Darkspawn Magister is the easier target?
Us, players, because that's how we play it, but the Viddasala doesn't have to know it. Then add that she was very angry about the whole "total mission failure" (Dragon's Breath lost, Eluvians lost, her forces lost) and she probably wasn't in the best state of mind to calmly and coldly evaluate her options. She's the anti-magic fanatic, after all, more used to curbing magical threats under her thumb than suffering them.
(Of course, if pop culture existed in Thedas, I'd say she watched too many cartoons in which a hero overpowers or at least causes some harm to the villain in a final moment of anger and desperation
The fact that this person can't petrify her with a thought.
True. They can only send your corporeal being to the Fade, which can result in one of the most horrible deaths known, according to WoT 2.
The fact that he is currently being killed by the mark on his hand.
A mark which is currently making the Inquisitor even more powerful and dangerous. That they will die soon doesn't count when you can't wait for that "soon" to happen.
She said she was no stranger to calamity, but the trouble posed by the Inquisitor defies comprehension. She should have been able to calmly evaluate the situation and go after the target she had a chance of defeating. Or else return to Par Vollen with information so the Triumvirate could formulate a strategy.
In any case, you honestly think Viddasala would choose certain death over returning to Par Vollen with information that will benefit her people and perhaps lessen any punishment on her? You think she wouldn't take that opportunity to fall back and wait for her chance to kill the Inquisitor, or at least witness if he lives or dies from the mark?
No, the only reason she would dare attack Solas is because she knew she was unauthorized. She knew the Triumvirate found out. She knew being a statue with an awesome pose was better than being declared Tal-Vashoth for her unauthorized actions.
You keep saying that, as if the Viddasala had any chance to return to Par Vollen once she faces Solas and the Inquisitor. How will she do it? Solas may be magnanimous enough to allow her to go back, but his words don't apply to the Inquisitor. She's alone and against two of the most powerful people in Thedas. Why would she think she can fall back, when it would be easier for the Inquisitor and company (who had destroyed the rest of her forces) to capture her and interrogate her until she confesses everything she knows about her operation in particular and the Qunari in general?
We know from Viddasala's very codex entry that the Inquisition is dying to know more about the Ben-Hassrath, with little success. Whatever Solas may feel, the Inquisition is under no obligation to honor his offer. In that case, Viddasala, who as a Ben-Hassrath is probably aware of those issues, can only expect death or capture.
And now it hits us: if she is working under authorization, she can't allow anyone to capture her alive. It's already bad she spilled the beans during the operation, but facing the shame of betraying the Qunari's secrets would be a worse failure than Dragon's Breath's.
But your claim is that the letter was just a trick meant to deceive the Inquisition and deny involvement. There is no evidence that the Qunari punish people for failure. Missions fail sometimes. The fact Tevinter still stands is proof of that.
Tallis was punished by being demoted to athlok. A living Arishok who recovered the Tome of Koslun is no longer the Arishok.
They might not call it punishment, of course. They might call it "re-assignment" or "re-education."
http://dragonage.wik...ath_Reeducators
Isn't it her duty to still report in and warn the Qunari of the danger Solas and the Inquisitor pose to the world? And isn't any punishment they deal better than being petrified by Solas?
People don't always act rationally. Perhaps she thought death was preferable to humiliation and whatever grim fate awaited her, especially if it involved being reduced to a mindless labourer. Perhaps she was simply enraged at being beaten.
For a simple failure against a strong opponent? Ridiculous.
Nonetheless, officers have been executed in RL for centuries for failed campaigns that stood very little chance at succeeding. "But the qunari are better than that." Oh sure. The qunari resort to brainwashing and lobotomization before execution.
And I don't think you quite grasp the magnitude of the failure here. It's true that the qunari lose troops in their war with Tevinter, but they might still be able to inflict casualties on their enemy or simply strain Tevinter's resources and push it closer to the breaking point.
Dragon's Breath was a total wash. Countless qunari were killed, bases were exposed and vital infrastructure was lost. And in the end, NOT ONE southerner died. No one was converted to the Qun as their actions. The qunari gained absolutely nothing from the failure of Dragon's Breath.
So did Viddasala then. She was able to feed lyrium to saarebas, which your side thinks was one of the mission parameters.
Also a failure, since the lyrium mine was lost and the enhanced saarebas were killed.
When have they brushed anything under the rug? They responded to Josephine's letter immediately, and this angered Viddasala.
Denying any association with the Viddasala. What happened in Kirkwall.
"What? The Arishok attacked you and failed? How about we don't talk about it? Like EVER"
This is the bunch who considers a signed peace treaty just some paper that'll make the Andrastian shut up.
If we are owed nothing, then why did they reply at all? Why not simply not reply?
Because they gave no explanation whatsoever, simply denied. They're as quick to deny anything that doesn't go their way as they are to remind you in great detail how their sorry boat sank.
That isn't what happened with Iron Bull if he allows the dreadnought to be destroyed. Remember, this is in spite of the mission being completed successfully.
Do you even bother reading what others post?
Wow 58 pages...well done, now let's see if we can get to 100.
Someone get a lamb. We may need a blood sacrifice to convince Patrick Weekes to intervene.
Lamb? I think we need to find those virgins that not even Imshael can find...
Someone get a lamb. We may need a blood sacrifice to convince Patrick Weekes to intervene.
And doing the sacrifice in the nude under the moonlight.
And doing the sacrifice in the nude under the moonlight.
Might drive him even further away.
Might drive him even further away.
Nothing a few fig leaves won't solve.
True. They can only send your corporeal being to the Fade, which can result in one of the most horrible deaths known, according to WoT 2.
A mark which is currently making the Inquisitor even more powerful and dangerous. That they will die soon doesn't count when you can't wait for that "soon" to happen.
You keep saying that, as if the Viddasala had any chance to return to Par Vollen once she faces Solas and the Inquisitor. How will she do it? Solas may be magnanimous enough to allow her to go back, but his words don't apply to the Inquisitor. She's alone and against two of the most powerful people in Thedas. Why would she think she can fall back, when it would be easier for the Inquisitor and company (who had destroyed the rest of her forces) to capture her and interrogate her until she confesses everything she knows about her operation in particular and the Qunari in general?
We know from Viddasala's very codex entry that the Inquisition is dying to know more about the Ben-Hassrath, with little success. Whatever Solas may feel, the Inquisition is under no obligation to honor his offer. In that case, Viddasala, who as a Ben-Hassrath is probably aware of those issues, can only expect death or capture.
And now it hits us: if she is working under authorization, she can't allow anyone to capture her alive. It's already bad she spilled the beans during the operation, but facing the shame of betraying the Qunari's secrets would be a worse failure than Dragon's Breath's.
Tallis was punished by being demoted to athlok. A living Arishok who recovered the Tome of Koslun is no longer the Arishok.
They might not call it punishment, of course. They might call it "re-assignment" or "re-education."
People don't always act rationally. Perhaps she thought death was preferable to humiliation and whatever grim fate awaited her, especially if it involved being reduced to a mindless labourer. Perhaps she was simply enraged at being beaten.
Nonetheless, officers have been executed in RL for centuries for failed campaigns that stood very little chance at succeeding. "But the qunari are better than that." Oh sure. The qunari resort to brainwashing and lobotomization before execution.
And I don't think you quite grasp the magnitude of the failure here. It's true that the qunari lose troops in their war with Tevinter, but they might still be able to inflict casualties on their enemy or simply strain Tevinter's resources and push it closer to the breaking point.
Dragon's Breath was a total wash. Countless qunari were killed, bases were exposed and vital infrastructure was lost. And in the end, NOT ONE southerner died. No one was converted to the Qun as their actions. The qunari gained absolutely nothing from the failure of Dragon's Breath.
Also a failure, since the lyrium mine was lost and the enhanced saarebas were killed.
Denying any association with the Viddasala.
What happened in Kirkwall.
"What? The Arishok attacked you and failed? How about we don't talk about it? Like EVER"
This is the bunch who considers a signed peace treaty just some paper that'll make the Andrastian shut up.
Because they gave no explanation whatsoever, simply denied. They're as quick to deny anything that doesn't go their way as they are to remind you in great detail how their sorry boat sank.
Do you even bother reading what others post?
It's very late and am tired. So, here it goes:
Viddasala's case is the subject you're trying to find an example for. You can't use her as proof of your claim.
???
Was unauthorized. We know that for a fact from the Arishok himself.
That it was. I'm talking about their reaction to it. Whatever mess they do, be it authorized or not, they expect everyone to get over it as if nothing happened and hold no grudges.
The post I replied to stated, "These are the same people whose first reaction to anyone who screws up is to never talk and simply forget about it. They're quick to brush it under the rug."
Then I wrote, "When have they brushed anything under the rug? They responded to Josephine's letter immediately, and this angered Viddasala."
So acknowledging the Arishok's actions and publicly disavowing them is the opposite of never talking about it and brushing it under the rug.
I'm talking about their attitude towards everything. That just shows what sort of people they really are. They'll never admit to anything that puts them in a bad light.
The Arishok had one job, to find the tome. Him attacking Kirwall isn't that outrageous since Isabela might've been hiding somewhere. It's not like she left a note saying she left the city.
For all we know, a living Arishok not being the Arishok anymore must be because it took him too long to find his dumb book, while he did nothing but sit on his ass waiting for it to materialize in his lap.
Besides, he himself says that the Qun might demand to step in if things get out of control, which they did.
This proves they don't believe in being bound to a bas document. It does not indicate that they do not acknowledge when certain Qunari act without authorization.
They don't knowledge because if they did, then they'd have 3 nations and a powerful organization ready to attack them.
What explanation do you expect from them when they have only just now received word of Viddasala's actions and they have yet to even investigate it? Mentioning the dead Qunari from the dreadnought was to assure the Inquisition that they sought no vengeance against the Inquisition for the lives lost.
It's the wording. They could have just mentioned the loss of the dreadnought and not get into details about it. I don't know how you read that letter but it sounded bitter. It's a wonder it didn't burn your hands when you read it.
And I don't even know why you brought up the dreadnought in the first place.
If you paid attention to the epilogue, after the Exalted Council, the qunari attacked Tevinter. Brutally did they do so. They were waiting for their genius plan in the south to succeed. And since it didn't they took out their frustration on Tevinter.
Do you? If the dreadnought is destroyed, the mission was still completed successfully. Yet the Triumivrate doesn't just nod to each other in contentment and make any move. They see Iron Bull's choice as him abandoning the Qun. They do not pursue any alliance, and they send assassins after Iron Bull. So it isn't all about success with them. It's about following orders, doing things the correct way, and achieving victory through that process.
Why the dreadnought?
You just read what you want so you can come up with arguments that have nothing to do with most things most say.
I'm sure there's a word for it but it's 6AM.
Do you? If the dreadnought is destroyed, the mission was still completed successfully. Yet the Triumivrate doesn't just nod to each other in contentment and make any move. They see Iron Bull's choice as him abandoning the Qun. They do not pursue any alliance, and they send assassins after Iron Bull. So it isn't all about success with them. It's about following orders, doing things the correct way, and achieving victory through that process.
This proves they don't believe in being bound to a bas document. It does not indicate that they do not acknowledge when certain Qunari act without authorization.
All this shows is that the Qunari treat the words, treaties and oaths they make as if they were water. As something that a parched man is so desperate for, they fail to realise it will eventually run out and that which drunk will not satisfy their thirst indefinitely.
Or in other words;
Qunari say what you want to hear, because you want to hear it and because it suits them at the moment to let you believe it.
All this shows is that the Qunari treat the words, treaties and oaths they make as if they were water. As something that a parched man is so desperate for, they fail to realise it will eventually run out and that which drunk will not satisfy their thirst indefinitely.
Or in other words;
Qunari say what you want to hear, because you want to hear it and because it suits them at the moment to let you believe it.
The point is that if she wants to die anyway, may as well fight the target you have a chance of winning against.
If the point is that she doesn't want to be captured, may as well fight the target you haven't a chance of surviving against.
Had she decided to take Solas' advice, she'd have turned around, saw the Inquisitor, assessed if she could defeat him or not, and then the Inquisitor's mark would have activated, bringing the Inquisitor to his knees. She could have used that chance to fall back or escape completely.
I need to ask: what chance? At the end of Trespasser, the Inquisitor has a lengthy chat with Solas before the mark starts acting funny again.
Viddasala was unaware that the Inquisitor was behind her. So your point is moot.
So, is she deaf? The music we hear is not diegetic. The Eluvians make a sound when activated. The Inquisitor doesn't precisely approach stealthily. Eluvian activation + steps + no "for the Qun!" or something cry = the person or people behind me are not reinforcements for my side. It's not as if she wasn't in a position to expect them if the other Qunari forces had killed the Inquisitor. But if someone crosses and is not rushing to help her it means her worst fears are confirmed.
She can't allow them to get information, so she divulges information willingly? This is your theory?
It is. Revealing some information when you think the witnesses are going to die is a case of holding the Cliched Villain Ball, but very different from being captured by an enemy who is not going to be defeated and will use that information to cause harm to your side.
No offense, but this thread is clear proof that the Qunari could get away with planning the worst terrorist attack in Thedosian history as long as the wronged party didn't gather enough evidence against them. "Did you find any compromising letters? Of course you didn't. Ah, so did she say something? Well, maybe she was mad and needed some reeducation. Oh, you say it isn't the case? Then, tell me, is she there with you? Did you have the chance to get a complete confession? No, of course. She died. A pity, isn't it?".
Her capture would not only have made the Qunari's plausible deniability harder to defend, but it could have even worse consequences. At worst, leaving Dragon's Breath plan in the open may push Qunari-South relations back to a similar state as in the past. Even that can be assumed. But Viddasala is one of the most important people among the Ben-Hassrath. She's in charge of conversion, reeducation and magic. Revealing state secrets in any of those areas would be a disaster to the Qunari.*
*(I admit this last point could be used for a non-loyal Viddasala too, because she would know those secrets regardless her loyalty).
If she doesn't want to be captured, then she can go down fighting. The point is that she should try to escape, since there is a chance that the Inquisitor won't be able to capture her.
Not even in our world do secret agencies like the idea of chances. Otherwise, they wouldn't have invented the suicide pill. And Qunari in-universe are no different. Remember how Ketojan killed himself because of the remote chance he could be corrupted after being outside the karataam? That's not the kind of people who like chances either.
In any case, I admit there were other options for her, but I can't blame her for not seeing them in her state of mind. As I said before, failure after failure, a final humilliation and fearing the worst ("death" not being the worst) are not the best clues for cold, rational and informed decision-making.
Neah, Solas has been blowing s**t up and turning people into statues as they followed him. She didn't stand a chance and she knew it. Her attacking him was more of a "Well, f**k you!"
I thought of it more as a poorly thought out rage-fueled heat of the moment decision. I just don't think she got to the point of "Well, I'm gonna do this knowing I'm going to die."Neah, Solas has been blowing s**t up and turning people into statues as they followed him. She didn't stand a chance and she knew it. Her attacking him was more of a "Well, f**k you!"
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