1580 réponses à ce sujet

[Almostfaceman]

And at this point most on your side are misinterpreting him on purpose.
 

 

Baseless speculation. Also presumptive and rude. 

 

[Heimdall]

And by your illogic, the Arishok in DA2 was part of Qunari society and thus automatically authorized to attack Kirkwall, thus Par Vollen was waging war on the South.

Tallis was part of Qunari society, thus Par Vollen waged war on Orlais when she assassinated the Orlesian lord.

The Arishok's decision was deliberately shown to be a spur of the moment event. Tallis was a rogue individual who took initiative.

Neither are equivalent to an organized plot that must have been months at least in planning and building up resources, appropriated forces of the Antaam despite not being under military leadership, and seeking to implement a plan that only makes sense if the rest of the Qunari are prepared to take advantage of the chaos it produces.

Like I've said before, the only thing that lends credit to the idea that she was rogue was her decision to feed lyrium to Saarebas, which actually seems a greater violation of the Qun-as-we-know-it than anything the Arishock or Tallis did, but that doesn't require the entire operation to be unauthorized.

EDIT: And the notes where she attempts to persuade the other Qunari to accept this practice indicates she only began it after the operation was well under way, so it likely wasn't part of the original plan and can't be used as proof that the entire operation was unauthorized.

[In Exile]

The Arishok arguably had the authority to attack Kirkwall - he was the military leader of the Qunari, answerable only in the most nebulous possible way to the notional leadership of the Qun. As I keep saying - we have no idea the grounds for his removal, which for all we know is that he didn't raze Kirkwall to the ground in Year 1, massacre everyone inside it, and salted the earth so no one could ever speak of the incident again. 

 

This insistence on an abstract debate about delegate authority is just rife with ignorance on how delegated authority actually works - it's very common for things to be done under the ostensibly air of authority, but later - and after the fact - be determined to be an improper exercise of discretion or authority (on a review). This is relevant from a disciplinary standpoint, but not from a political one.

 

The Saarebas point is an example. It's hard to say whether or not this is within the ambit of her authority. At the time, it's hard to argue she was not exercising her lawful powers - but after the fact the Qunari can determine that she acted outside the scope of her role and sanction her. This is how reality works.

[Mistic]

What evidence do you have that they lied?

 

Viddasala's words and Iron Bull's betrayal.

 

When Hissrad turned on the party I suspected that the operation was official, since he saw the Triumvirate letter (I assume he saw it, though it wasn't acknowledged in the game), and then I thought about it. I concluded that if Hissrad was in on any official operation, he would have turned on me in the beginning at the Forgotten Temple or at least in the Vir Dirthara, not after the plan was foiled. So his betrayal must have been for some other reason. He was scared of being called Tal-Vashoth, or he knew he couldn't kill those he knew were real Qunari, even if they were unauthorized.

 

That's all headcanon. I can headcanon a different explanation: he didn't turn on you because he didn't have orders to do so. As a good Qunari, he sticked to his initial orders until the Viddasala gave him a new one.

 

Without that headcanon, you are already admitting that Iron Bull's actions are more evidence that the operation was official.

 

As I said a couple dozen pages ago, this is like denying the Word of God even after hearing it from the Burning Bush?

 

That gave me ideas

Spoiler

I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob

 

"How do I know you are the real god? Also, you say 'my father'. But are you talking about my biological father or my adoptive father? Because the Pharaoh  worships other gods. Maybe you are Amun-Ra, or maybe Set."

 

I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters; for I know their sorrows

 

"Your people in Egypt can only mean one thing: Set worshippers. I knew it."

 

Now therefore, behold, the cry of the children of Israel is come unto me: and I have also seen the oppression wherewith the Egyptians oppress them.

 

"Wait, if you are Set, but the people of Israel are supposed to worship only one god... Oh, my, they are all Set worshippers!"

 

Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt.

 

"Of course, of course, Set is said in many stories to be an agent of chaos. What would be more chaotic than depiriving Egypt of one of its most important sources of labour force?"

 

I AM THAT I AM

 

"So, pretty much confirmed."

[robertthebard]

Weekes said nothing about Solas or the plan being dashed.

So you never played Trespasser. How are you qualified to discuss it, youtube videos? Because if you had played Trespasser, you would understand how we came to be aware of the Qunari plot, and who was responsible. It's becoming evident that you didn't play, or you'd know this.

[Dai Grepher]

The Arishok's decision was deliberately shown to be a spur of the moment event. Tallis was a rogue individual who took initiative.

Oh, you actually fell for that lie? That was obviously just plausible deniability. The Arishok was in Kirkwall for years. Of course it was years in the planning. The fact the remaining Salasari denied it is proof that they authorized it. I mean, what are they going to do, admit to an attack that they authorized?

Tallis was on an officially recognized operation. That means she was authorized to do what she did. She invaded. That counts as war.
 

Neither are equivalent to an organized plot that must have been months at least in planning and building up resources,

Why would Dragon's Breath take months? And how would that prove anything about the Triumvirate? Maybe Viddasala was the one planning it for months, years even.
 

appropriated forces of the Antaam despite not being under military leadership

Antaam being present without an antaam leader is proof that it wasn't authorized.
 

and seeking to implement a plan that only makes sense if the rest of the Qunari are prepared to take advantage of the chaos it produces.

Unless the plan was actually just to start a war with the South without the Triumvirate's authorization. Also, no military units or ships were in place to take advantage.
 

Like I've said before, the only thing that lends credit to the idea that she was rogue was her decision to feed lyrium to Saarebas, which actually seems a greater violation of the Qun-as-we-know-it than anything the Arishock or Tallis did, but that doesn't require the entire operation to be unauthorized.

Brought red lyrium to Qunari lands. Manufactured gaatlok with unskilled viddathari. Intercepted the Triumvirate's letter and discarded it. Instructed antaam in matters of combat. Used elvhen magic. Exposed Qunari to demons. All blatant violations of the Qun or the Triumvirate's wishes.
 

EDIT: And the notes where she attempts to persuade the other Qunari to accept this practice indicates she only began it after the operation was well under way, so it likely wasn't part of the original plan and can't be used as proof that the entire operation was unauthorized.

It is proof that she was acting outside the Qun, and her followers questioned her. They had doubts about her. And even if you want to say that Viddasala came up with those side plans, that just means she deviated from the task she was given. All she had to do was make gaatlok and ship it to the proper locations. She didn't have to mess around in the elvhen temples. She didn't need to be in the mines. She didn't need to be in the Vir Dirthara. All she needed to do was make gaatlok, ship gaatlok through the proper eluvians, and give the signal to detonate. So why was she allowed to go so far off the rails? In this case, the Qunari under her would not question her side projects as much as they would question why she is deviating from the invasion.
 

The Arishok arguably had the authority to attack Kirkwall - he was the military leader of the Qunari, answerable only in the most nebulous possible way to the notional leadership of the Qun.

 

As I keep saying - we have no idea the grounds for his removal, which for all we know is that he didn't raze Kirkwall to the ground in Year 1, massacre everyone inside it, and salted the earth so no one could ever speak of the incident again.

He was disavowed and his actions denounced.
 

This insistence on an abstract debate about delegate authority is just rife with ignorance on how delegated authority actually works - it's very common for things to be done under the ostensibly air of authority, but later - and after the fact - be determined to be an improper exercise of discretion or authority (on a review). This is relevant from a disciplinary standpoint, but not from a political one.

War can only be waged by the Triumvirate, as it is an act that affects all of Qunari society and requires its full participation. Viddasala either broke the rules, or she didn't, and if she didn't then she had no reason to be mad at the Triumvirate's letter.
 

The Saarebas point is an example. It's hard to say whether or not this is within the ambit of her authority.

It's not. Hissrad/Iron Bull confirms it. Jerran confirms it. Viddasala's codex confirms it.

[Dai Grepher]

Viddasala's words and Iron Bull's betrayal.

Viddasala's words are proven to be lies.

You do not know Hissrad's rationale for betraying the Inquisitor. The fact he does not betray you at the start suggests he knew nothing of the operation, and thus the operation was not official, otherwise he would have heard about it and either would have attacked at the outset or else not been permitted to return to the Inquisition at all.

That's all headcanon.

As I indicated, Hissrad's rationale was my own conclusion based on the facts, but the fact that he did not attack us until after the plan was foiled is indeed proof that he was not in on any operation.

I can headcanon a different explanation: he didn't turn on you because he didn't have orders to do so. As a good Qunari, he sticked to his initial orders until the Viddasala gave him a new one.

Then his original orders would override Viddasala's order. Also, Hissrad ignored her order to kill the Inquisitor in the Vir Dirthara, so your point is disproved by that.

Without that headcanon, you are already admitting that Iron Bull's actions are more evidence that the operation was official.

No, because Hissrad could still just be a cowardly idiot who is afraid of being declared Tal-Vashoth.

So you never played Trespasser.

So you never read the post you replied to. Try again.

[Heimdall]

Oh, you actually fell for that lie? That was obviously just plausible deniability. The Arishok was in Kirkwall for years. Of course it was years in the planning. The fact the remaining Salasari denied it is proof that they authorized it. I mean, what are they going to do, admit to an attack that they authorized?

Tallis was on an officially recognized operation. That means she was authorized to do what she did. She invaded. That counts as war.

You cannot be so thick skilled as to actually believe these are equivalent situations.

Why would Dragon's Breath take months? And how would that prove anything about the Triumvirate? Maybe Viddasala was the one planning it for months, years even.

Everything we encounter in the Darvarrad and the Deep Roads indicates that this operation took quite a bit of time to put together and has been operating for some time. It took time and coordination to gather enough knowledge to unlock the Eluvians and get spies in place to distribute the gaatlok. Not to mention the trial and error that was apparently involved in setting up the lyrium mine. It's highly unlikely this could have been pulled off by one rogue operative much less escaped the notice of others in the Qun.

Antaam being present without an antaam leader is proof that it wasn't authorized.

They did have officers, Stens, but in any case that the Antaam is present and placed under her command could indicate a lot of things, like that this is a military operation and the Vidasala has been given special authority to carry it out given her specialized knowledge. If all the Qunari under her command are rogue too, how are they not a rogue faction as Weekes said they weren't?

Unless the plan was actually just to start a war with the South without the Triumvirate's authorization. Also, no military units or ships were in place to take advantage.

That plan makes no sense and we have no idea what the rest of the Antaam was doing.

Brought red lyrium to Qunari lands. Manufactured gaatlok with unskilled viddathari. Intercepted the Triumvirate's letter and discarded it. Instructed antaam in matters of combat. Used elvhen magic. Exposed Qunari to demons. All blatant violations of the Qun or the Triumvirate's wishes.

It is proof that she was acting outside the Qun, and her followers questioned her. They had doubts about her. And even if you want to say that Viddasala came up with those side plans, that just means she deviated from the task she was given. All she had to do was make gaatlok and ship it to the proper locations. She didn't have to mess around in the elvhen temples. She didn't need to be in the mines. She didn't need to be in the Vir Dirthara. All she needed to do was make gaatlok, ship gaatlok through the proper eluvians, and give the signal to detonate. So why was she allowed to go so far off the rails? In this case, the Qunari under her would not question her side projects as much as they would question why she is deviating from the invasion.

We don't know what exactly the Triumvirate wished, but I think I've told you before that I believe Dragon's Breath was authorized while the Vidasala's meddling with lyrium and Saarebas probably wasn't. I think she operated outside her mandate just not as much as you think.

As to whether her troops questioned her interest in the lyrium mines and the library, I should remind you that the Vidasala's normal job entails the collection, study and containment of magic and magical knowledge. Collecting samples of red lyrium and studying the Vir Dirthara is well within her role. They would not see this as against the Qun. Not to mention, studying elven sites has a practical purpose for the operation in terms of finding keys to open the relevant eluvians. It's probably why she was put in charge of the operation in the first place.

[paramitch]

The recent interview with Patrick Weekes pretty much confirmed that the Viddasala wasn't a rogue agent and that it was a Qunari operation.

 

Here's the transcript and video

:

 

Spoiler

BF: How did the possibility of Iron Bull's death in Tresspasser come about?

PW: Okay, this one was tough. Because... The bad news on having a character die in the game, as a possibility means that you are inherently limiting how much they can ever appear in the future. You know. It's not a hard limition; we had Ash or Kaidan die in Mass Effect 1, and still have them as full squad mates in Mass Effect 3. So it's not like that's a hard line, but whatever you say 'hey this character can die if this happens in the game', it makes it a lot harder to bring them back in the future. So it was definitely something we thought long and hard about. That said, when we got to the Qunari, we kicked around different ways to do it. We said 'Oh, okay, maybe it's a rogue faction of the Qunari and they aren't really the real Qunari and Bull doesn't believe in them,' and every time... We tried to talk ourselves into that for a while, like, 'Oh Bull wouldn't do this, they're not the real Qunari, they're an offshoot,' and it just got so toothless. It got to a point where we were like 'No, really, who wants to play a game where you are fighting the offshoot of the offshoot of the offshoot.' We own this. The Qunari aren't being used anywhere but in our games. So if we're gonna say the Qunari are gonna start a war, let's have the Qunari start a war, and let's own it. And in that case, the only reasonable outcome was that if you hadn't gotten Iron Bull out of the Qun, it made no sense for him to do anything but turn on you. It's one of those things where, you know, I don't know if we would have done things differently if we had known 'Oh we definitely want to have the Qunari in the Trespasser DLC, and what does that do for Iron Bull?', if we had known that years and years ahead of time, if we would have changed Iron Bull's plot somewhere, had him start as a Tal'Vashoth, or something like that, but I really like that choice. I love that we gave you a choice, and that it didn't immediately have a white hat and a black hat on it. And that it was a choice that had teeth; I love those, because it was really interesting after Trespasser shipped, watching the reaction to those. Because there were many people who were surprised and very unhappy and said 'This shouldn't have happened, even though I made Bull loyal to the Qun, he still should have respected me and not turned on me,' and there were a few people who would say that, but everytime someone said that, everyone else would turn and look at them and go 'What did you think was going to happen? You did a plot and told this guy specifically to be loyal to the Qun, so yeah, when the Qunari come... You did a plot that told him to stay on their side,' so really, there was no other way for us to do that. And it certainly wasn't something I was happy about, it wasn't something Freddie [Prinze Jr] was happy about. You know, it's a wrenching thing, doing something that you know is going to lead to, fortunately at least the possible death of his character, rather than a definitive death of his character, but you know, it's a wrench doing that stuff. But I did that to the actors who played Tali in Mass Effect 3, I did it to the actor who did Mordin in Mass 3, you know, doing that to Freddie Prinze Jr here, it's never happy, but you know... In all these cases the actors looked at it and go 'Oh this is what's happening, this is the plot. Yeah, this is what my character would do,'. And if it makes sense that way, you just have to go with it.

 

So what are your thoughts now that this is confirmed?

 

Thanks for posting a really fascinating and throughtful, in-depth interview. I loved the little details, like learning that Solas was slightly inspired by the Tenth Doctor (I KNEW IT), or the real thought and discussion that went into Bull's potential storylines and especially their outcome in "Trespasser."  I do agree that the only way it makes sense for Bull's decisions to work as they do (whether Qun-loyal or Qun-disloyal) in "Trespasser" is that the Viddasala must actually be legitimate in some way.

 

And it makes all of Sten's conversations in DAO that much more interesting and chilling. Lots of potential foreshadowing there if they build on those aspects of the Qunari (and even bring back Sten) in future installments. I'd be all over that. And I think it would be an interesting parallel -- the single-minded blindness of the Qunari to make the world in a specific way, reflecting a very similar single-minded blindness on the part of Solas, who also seeks to make the world over in a specific way.

 

And they're both wrong. And yet I have a lot of interest in and sympathy for both. That's what's genius. I'm invested in both of those potential stories already.

 

So -- great interview, and a lot of fun. I appreciate that Patrick really tries to be accessible and forthcoming while also reserving plenty of spoilers to dazzle us with in the (hopeful) next installment of Dragon Age.

[Dean_the_Young]

The Arishok arguably had the authority to attack Kirkwall - he was the military leader of the Qunari, answerable only in the most nebulous possible way to the notional leadership of the Qun. As I keep saying - we have no idea the grounds for his removal, which for all we know is that he didn't raze Kirkwall to the ground in Year 1, massacre everyone inside it, and salted the earth so no one could ever speak of the incident again. 

 

This insistence on an abstract debate about delegate authority is just rife with ignorance on how delegated authority actually works - it's very common for things to be done under the ostensibly air of authority, but later - and after the fact - be determined to be an improper exercise of discretion or authority (on a review). This is relevant from a disciplinary standpoint, but not from a political one.

 

The Saarebas point is an example. It's hard to say whether or not this is within the ambit of her authority. At the time, it's hard to argue she was not exercising her lawful powers - but after the fact the Qunari can determine that she acted outside the scope of her role and sanction her. This is how reality works.

 

This is what I consider the most significant obstacle to the Viddasala being rogue (or not) argument. Without an understanding of how the Qunari system actually works in practice- which we don't have- we can't know what the expectations and sanctions even are. And that's on top of the potential for internal contradictions under the Qun- where a system can have different parts where actors- without direct sanction from higher- can come into natural conflict through the good-faith execution of their understood duties.

 

(An innocuous American political example, for example, might be an FBI agent undercover, being investigated by a state police agency for the crimes committed under that process.)

[Dean_the_Young]

The Arishok's decision was deliberately shown to be a spur of the moment event. Tallis was a rogue individual who took initiative.

Neither are equivalent to an organized plot that must have been months at least in planning and building up resources, appropriated forces of the Antaam despite not being under military leadership, and seeking to implement a plan that only makes sense if the rest of the Qunari are prepared to take advantage of the chaos it produces.

Like I've said before, the only thing that lends credit to the idea that she was rogue was her decision to feed lyrium to Saarebas, which actually seems a greater violation of the Qun-as-we-know-it than anything the Arishock or Tallis did, but that doesn't require the entire operation to be unauthorized.

EDIT: And the notes where she attempts to persuade the other Qunari to accept this practice indicates she only began it after the operation was well under way, so it likely wasn't part of the original plan and can't be used as proof that the entire operation was unauthorized.

 

Without getting into his argument, one thing to consider would be that the Dragon's Breath preparations could have been sanctioned, without the actual plot or go-ahead order being sanctioned. In which case the Qunari state would easily be on the hook for conspiracy to, without actually intending to implement.

 

This isn't (quite) as absurd as one might think- major military operations often have major decision points triggered by key events. If the event happens or is reported, the force is prepared to do X- but the validity of the trigger is often taken by trust in the messenger. This opens up opportunities for exploitation by improper signaling. At it's most basic, think of a scout who's supposed to tell the army which way to go around a mountain to reach the enemy. The army's prepared to follow the scout's lead- but the scout, for whatever reason, can deceive and lead to a fait accompli. Maybe they go north, and not south, because someone bribed them. Or they wanted the battlefield to ruin someone else's village. Or whatever. The point is, the force follows even if the force didn't have a specific intent of where it would be led.

 

To bring back the Qunari- Dragon's Breath could have been a staged contingency operation. Something to be done if/when the opportunity presented itself- but without a deliberate decision having already been made. The Qunari could try and invade south. The Qunari could try to invade North. If they go south, they'll set off Dragon's Breath to set conditions- and, by the inverse, if they set off Dragon's Breath, the conditions will be set and they'll go south.

 

But the preparations themselves don't prove a decision was already made and sanctioned.

[Dai Grepher]

You cannot be so thick skilled as to actually believe these are equivalent situations.

In that they are all unauthorized, yes. Your side however would apply one standard to Viddasala while withholding it from all others. Just because they are real Qunari does not mean they are authorized. That is my point here.

The logistics of Dragon's Breath is another matter. I proved that Viddasala could do it all on her own without the Triumvirate knowing about it.

Everything we encounter in the Darvarrad and the Deep Roads indicates that this operation took quite a bit of time to put together and has been operating for some time.

The Darvaarad is an official base that is used to quarantine magic. Of course Viddasala could have stocked up on eluvians, broken and whole, and also found various objects that could be used as keys. Researching the eluvians has nothing to do with plotting to blow up the South. And Viddasala couldn't have been researching this until after Solas restored parts of the Crossroads at the end of the base game.

Making gaatlok was stated to be a faster process for Viddasala because she had the ataashi venom to use as an ingredient. This is also how she got so much of it. Hissrad confirms that the Arigena wouldn't have let that much out of Par Vollen. This too was done at the Darvaarad, and kept secret. The Darvaarad is also a castle on a small island. If Viddasala is documented as going to the Darvaarad and never documented leaving, then as far as the Triumvirate knows, Viddasala is on the island at the Darvaarad. They may have had no idea that she was using eluvians to leave and come back as she pleased to various unknown locations. Remember the gatekeeper's logbook? He asked one of the agents where she found the artifacts she brought back, and she never told him where exactly. This is because Viddasala ordered her not to, as doing so would immediately raise suspicion as to how the agent was able to get to an ancient elvhen ruin that is thousands of miles away.

Likewise the Deep Roads are accessed via an eluvian. There is no way Par Vollen could know what was going on there. These mines were said to have been set up by the elvhen and run by the dwarves. So if the mining locations were already set up, as the Dread Wolf statues, mysterious statues, and elvhen carvings indicate, then all the Qunari would have to do is move in and build some lifts.

Saarath's note indicates that he began taking lyrium a few days prior to the Inquisitor's arrival at the Darvaarad. His last entry was shortly before the Inquisitor arrived.

It took time and coordination to gather enough knowledge to unlock the Eluvians and get spies in place to distribute the gaatlok.

Not necessarily. We don't know how many eluvians Viddasala was able to unlock and which ones were already open because of Solas. Perhaps just the one that led to the Crossroads and the one that led to the final ruins, while all other mirrors were open on their own, or were opened by Solas. Maybe the eluvians in the Crossroads only needed magic to open, which would explain the use of saarebas. It is presumed that the one leading to Halamshiral was opened by Solas so that the dying Qunari would go through and expose Dragon's Breath. It is likely that Solas opened the ones to the ruins, mines, and Vir Dirthara as well in anticipation for the Veil being dropped. Or so he could regain more of his power so he could drop the Veil.

Not to mention the trial and error that was apparently involved in setting up the lyrium mine. It's highly unlikely this could have been pulled off by one rogue operative much less escaped the notice of others in the Qun.

Viddasala orders Qunari to mine the raw lyrium. They die. She orders more to mine it with better tools. They die. She orders them to try using gaatlok. It's super effective. She also had Jerran to consult with, and he speculates she may have asked the carta. Again, the mines are only accessed by one eluvian. That means contact with Par Vollen was cut off.

They did have officers, Stens,

I saw no Stens, nor letters signed by that rank.

but in any case that the Antaam is present and placed under her command could indicate a lot of things, like that this is a military operation and the Vidasala has been given special authority to carry it out given her specialized knowledge.

That would only make her an advisor to a military commander, not a military commander herself. Why would she wish to be a man? That makes no sense.

If all the Qunari under her command are rogue too, how are they not a rogue faction as Weekes said they weren't?

I didn't claim she was rogue, and the Qunari under her are not rogue. They are real Qunari. Being unauthorized and tricked into following orders not sanctioned by the Triumvirate does not make them rogue Qunari. Weekes specifically referred to rogue qunari as those of the qunari race who are outside of the Qun completely.

That plan makes no sense and we have no idea what the rest of the Antaam was doing.

What doesn't make sense about it? Viddasala was disgusted that the Triumvirate was not engaging in war against the South. And in the alliance worldstate, even more disgusted that the Triumvirate was allying with the Inquisition and entrusting them with missions instead of the Ben-Hassrath. So she plotted to start a war with the South, forcing the Triumvirate to conquer the South. She probably believed that taking lands in the South would provide more resources and a land advantage to fight Tevinter. She probably also believed that the southern leaders would not be able to unite against the Qunari, especially if she managed to kill the Inquisitor and the Divine.

There are no reports of Antaam soldiers anywhere near southern borders. There were no Antaam units in any of the game levels. So it can be concluded through logical deduction that the Antaam forces were on Seheron regrouping for the next wave against Tevinter.

We don't know what exactly the Triumvirate wished, but I think I've told you before that I believe Dragon's Breath was authorized while the Vidasala's meddling with lyrium and Saarebas probably wasn't. I think she operated outside her mandate just not as much as you think.

Well how do you answer the red lyrium, the creation of gaatlok, and all the rest?

I think it is well stated what the Triumvirate wished. They wanted to topple Tevinter. Only after that was invasion of the South possible, not before. Iron Bull/Hissrad state that invasion is impossible. Hissrad confirms that if the operation were official, he would have heard about it. I claim that in that case, he would not have been sent back to the Inquisition at all, since Cole can read minds. They aren't going to risk it. Or, if sent back, Hissrad would have turned on us in the first battle with the Qunari. He certainly wouldn't have helped us foil Dragon's Breath.

As to whether her troops questioned her interest in the lyrium mines and the library, I should remind you that the Vidasala's normal job entails the collection, study and containment of magic and magical knowledge. Collecting samples of red lyrium and studying the Vir Dirthara is well within her role. They would not see this as against the Qun. Not to mention, studying elven sites has a practical purpose for the operation in terms of finding keys to open the relevant eluvians. It's probably why she was put in charge of the operation in the first place.

Not when the Triumvirate launches a joint-operation with the Inquisition and puts Qunari lives on the line to keep red lyrium from spreading beyond the South.

Studying the Vir Dirthara is one thing, putting Qunari in close proximity to demons is another. Especially regarding saarebas.

That would only put her in charge of opening the portals, not commanding the attacks.

Iron Bull disagrees. He expects Viddasala to smash any eluvian she comes across.

[Heimdall]

Dai, do you work for Bioware?  Because you seem to think you have a much more complete understanding of how the Qunari work than we actually do.

[Dai Grepher]

This is what I consider the most significant obstacle to the Viddasala being rogue (or not) argument. Without an understanding of how the Qunari system actually works in practice- which we don't have- we can't know what the expectations and sanctions even are. And that's on top of the potential for internal contradictions under the Qun- where a system can have different parts where actors- without direct sanction from higher- can come into natural conflict through the good-faith execution of their understood duties.

I think it's simple.

If it were a true invasion, Viddasala would not be the only agent involved. All other branches of the Triumvirate would have been involved and there would have been multiple agents at every level overseeing their specific tasks of the operation.

Dangerous Questions would have been insinuated at the Winter Palace to watch for activity from the targets. Spies would have been lying in wait to give the order to detonate.

Dangerous Purpose would have been investigating the eluvians and magical artifacts at the Darvaarad.

Dangerous Actions would have been mining lyrium and transporting it to the Arigena branch. They would have been watching over the saarebas closely after they are given refined lyrium potions. They would instruct the saarebas to activate the eluvians all while being overseen by Dangerous Purpose. Dangerous Actions would also be controlling the ataashi and collecting its venom, also given over to the Arigena.

The Arigena branch would be manufacturing the raw lyrium and turning it into refined lyrium for the saarebas. They would be manufacturing the gaatlok.

The Antaam would be divided into large units and commanded by the Kithshoks to destroy the elvhen spirits attacking the workers. Arvaarads would be called in to use the saarebas to defend against the agent of Fen'Harel. The Arishok would have the fleets ready to land on the shores of the southern nations.

Then when the gaatlok is in place, Dangerous Questions reports in, and the Arishok gives the order to detonate. This is relayed back to the Dangerous Actions branch and their spies and Dragon's Breath is under way. Then in the chaos various Tallis' assassinate any nobles who may have survived the attack, and the Arishok launches a full scale invasion on the South.

And yet the only agent we see in Trespasser is Viddasala. She's not even allowed to command military actions by mere fact she is a woman.

Good point in the second post about Dragon's Breath perhaps being planned, but not authorized to be carried out against the South unless the South did something against Par Vollen. Another option is that the plan was made with Tevinter in mind, but Viddasala hijacked it.

[Dai Grepher]

Dai, do you work for Bioware?  Because you seem to think you have a much more complete understanding of how the Qunari work than we actually do.

My uncle works there.

Spoiler

Joking of course.

I have read the relevant information on the Qunari from the various games.

[Heimdall]

My uncle works there.

Spoiler

Joking of course.

I have read the relevant information on the Qunari from the various games.

I've read the same information, but you've seemed to read quite a lot of absolutes and certainties into what is in reality a very vague sense as to how the Qunari organize themselves and what they would never do.

[Sifr]

Dai, do you work for Bioware?  Because you seem to think you have a much more complete understanding of how the Qunari work than we actually do.

 

You've hit the nail on the head here.

 

Unless Dai is actually on the writing staff, then disagreeing with the writers themselves and saying things like "I proved that Viddasala could do it all on her own without the Triumvirate knowing about it" suggests he thinks what he's saying is canon. simply because he declares it so.

 

Your fanon is not canon.

 

We know what the canon is, because they told us.

 

The Qunari invasion was authorised.

[Dai Grepher]

I've read the same information, but you've seemed to read quite a lot of absolutes and certainties into what is in reality a very vague sense as to how the Qunari organize themselves and what they would never do.

What's vague about it?

Women cannot engage in warfare. Absolute.

Tasks are given to those best suited to specific roles. Absolute.

Do not give lyrium to saarebas. Absolute.

Do not defy the will of the Triumvirate. Absolute.

What vague characteristics are preventing you from seeing that the Triumvirate didn't authorize Dragon's Breath?

Unless Dai is actually on the writing staff, then disagreeing with the writers themselves and saying things like "I proved that Viddasala could do it all on her own without the Triumvirate knowing about it" suggests he thinks what he's saying is canon. simply because he declares it so.

I never disagreed with the writers.

I proved Viddasala could, COULD do it on her own without the Triumvirate knowing about it. That means I proved it was possible. I didn't write it is canon fact that she did, just that this is what the game indicates based on the available facts.

Weekes and Epler confirmed that it wasn't authorized in the conference video.

[robertthebard]

I never disagreed with the writers.

You've spent the majority of this thread disagreeing with the writers. They say "The group in Trespasser isn't a rogue faction", and you say, "but they weren't authorized". Acting w/out authorization would make them a rogue faction.

[Heimdall]

What's vague about it?

Women cannot engage in warfare. Absolute.

Incorrect. Women cannot be warriors. But in their roles in the priesthood they do take part in warfare and covert action. This is one of the ways the Qunari manage to troll-logic their way out of supposed "absolutes". They do it a lot.

Do not defy the will of the Triumvirate. Absolute.

What vague characteristics are preventing you from seeing that the Triumvirate didn't authorize Dragon's Breath?

The problem is that you seem to think you know exactly what the will of the triumvirate is when we know nothing of the sort.

EDIT: You also seem to have decided that you know the ONE TRUE WAY the Qunari would deploy their forces in this situation and because it doesn't match your headcanon you decree that no true Qunari operation would operate like the Vidasala does. And your assertion that the Vidasala would never be given command over a portion of the Antaam is pure presumption.

[Sifr]

Weekes and Epler confirmed that it wasn't authorized in the conference video.

 

You keep saying saying that they "confirmed" it, but nowhere in the video do either Weekes or Epler ever say anything to that effect!

 

Instead the source you provided is when they describe the Qunari as "an invading force from across the sea that hate magic", a sentence that you have somehow deluded yourself into believing does not apply, nor accurately describe the Qunari under the Triumvirate.

 

Nowhere in the conference do they ever comment on the authorisation of the mission explicitly, but with Weekes' other comments that the faction we encountered was not a rogue group, that is far more solid evidence that the mission was sanctioned by the Triumvirate.

[Dai Grepher]

You've spent the majority of this thread disagreeing with the writers.

No I haven't.
 

They say "The group in Trespasser isn't a rogue faction", and you say, "but they weren't authorized".

That isn't a disagreement. Those are separate issues, and I never disagreed with the fact that it was not a rogue group.
 

Acting w/out authorization would make them a rogue faction.

No it wouldn't.

And Weekes was clearly referring to a group of qunari outside the Qun in his example of a "rogue group".
 

Incorrect. Women cannot be warriors. But in their roles in the priesthood they do take part in warfare and covert action. This is one of the ways the Qunari manage to troll-logic their way out of supposed "absolutes". They do it a lot.

Perhaps "warfare" was too broad of a term. Sure they can be assassins and spies, and that counts as warfare. So I will rephrase. Women cannot command warrior units in battle, or instruct them to engage in war, which is what Viddasala did.
 

The problem is that you seem to think you know exactly what the will of the triumvirate is when we know nothing of the sort.

No, I'm just going by the available facts (women cannot be warriors according to the Qun). You are theorizing without a factual basis (the Triumvirate must have authorized because the operation is too big).
 

You also seem to have decided that you know the ONE TRUE WAY the Qunari would deploy their forces in this situation and because it doesn't match your headcanon you decree that no true Qunari operation would operate like the Vidasala does.

I could accuse you of that. You think the operation is too large for one agent to formulate, even though she is the only agent overseeing it. And because the idea of her formulating it as well does not fit your idea of how such an operation could come to be, you conclude that the Triumvirate must have authorized it.

I do not put my own ideas into this at all. The Qunari believe in all Qunari individuals being assigned roles based on their observed skills and affinities (fact). They give tasks to each according to their roles (fact). Dragon's Breath had multiple tasks, most of which were outside of Viddasala's roles (fact). Therefore it stands to reason that other agents would have been assigned to those tasks had the operation been official (logical conclusion).
 

You keep saying saying that they "confirmed" it, but nowhere in the video do either Weekes or Epler ever say anything to that effect!

There you go disagreeing with the writers again.
 

Instead the source you provided is when they describe the Qunari as "an invading force from across the sea that hate magic", a sentence that you have somehow deluded yourself into believing does not apply, nor accurately describe the Qunari under the Triumvirate.

They were referring to the Qunari in Trespasser, not the Qunari in Par Vollen.

Nowhere in the conference do they ever comment on the authorisation of the mission explicitly, but with Weekes' other comments that the faction we encountered was not a rogue group, that is far more solid evidence that the mission was sanctioned by the Triumvirate.

His stated definition of "rogue group" is qunari outside of the Qun. He said they were not qunari outside of the Qun. The were real Qunari. That does not automatically mean they were authorized to attack the South.

[Sifr]

There you go disagreeing with the writers again.

 

Says someone who's spent 60 pages now disagreeing with the writers?

 

They were referring to the Qunari in Trespasser, not the Qunari in Par Vollen.

 

Who are the Qunari from Par Vollen! They provided an actual definition for these Qunari were, all the boxes are ticked for describing Qunari under the Qun! Face it, these are the actual Qunari from Par Vollen!

 

His stated definition of "rogue group" is qunari outside of the Qun. He said they were not qunari outside of the Qun. The were real Qunari. That does not automatically mean they were authorized to attack the South.

 

Yes, it does.

 

Weekes stated that they didn't want to chicken out by making them a rogue group. The writers decided to have the Qun-following Qunari to invade the South and own that decision. I honestly don't now how they could have made the fact this was a legitimate invasion any clearer!

 

No-one else seems to be having any problem following this?

[Illegitimus]

What's vague about it?

Women cannot engage in warfare. Absolute.

 

 

Was Viddasala a woman?

 

For that matter, was Tallis?

[Sifr]

What's vague about it?

Women cannot engage in warfare. Absolute.

 

Women weren't engaging in warfare.... they were engaging in infiltration, espionage and assassination.

 

Qunari understand the difference. The direct approach is the purview of soldiers, while the sneaky approach is the purview of spies.